1 Nov
1998
1 Nov
'98
10:48 a.m.
It is interesting that 5150 is also the numerical code attached to the
process by which a person is involutarily committed to a mental ward.
The first personal computer I ever saw was an IBM, though the number
is not now known to me. However, it had a switch on the front which
allowed for either execution of a BASIC interpreter, or execution of an
APL interpreter. It was a little larger than an Osborne 1 but, its
structure
had a lot in common with the Osborne 1, or the Kaypro, etc.
That a person does not have knowledge of a source of a "BIG IRON"
machine, nor the ability to operate it has little to do with the definition
of personal computer.
In the early to mid 70's, I was an operator of 360 and 370 computers, and
believe me, it is perfectly possible for a single operator to keep such
machines in operation.
William R. Buckley
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt
"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com>
wrote:
the
Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs,
IMSAIs, various
development systems don't count. Satisfied?
Since when is an IMSAI not a personal computer? Surely you're not one of people that claim that IBM "invented" the
Personal Computer with the 5150?
1 Nov
1 Nov
1:42 p.m.
In the early to mid 70's, I was an operator of 360
and 370 computers, and
believe me, it is perfectly possible for a single operator to keep such
machines in operation.
I've been an operator too, and it is certainly possible for one person
to be an operator of such a machine. But where are you going to get spare
parts for a 370 when it breaks? It's not like a PDP-11 where you can
simply replace a 74S181 chip with one from your local surplus store.
I submit that you have not even begun to consider the issues involved in
operating big iron as a personal computer. I've put some effort into it,
and I'm sure I haven't come anywhere close to encountering all of the
pitfalls yet.
If you can cite a single example of an individual having a piece of
20 year old big iron (i.e., a complete computer system
that required a
"computer room" environment) in working order and
operational within the
last year, I will concede your point.
Several collector *own* big iron, but I have yet to hear of any *operating*
it. AFAIK, even the Computer Museum Historical Collection is not attempting
to operate any big iron; the closest I've heard of is an attempt to
restore an IBM 1620 (which is only medium iron).
Eric
2:13 p.m.
On 2 Nov 1998, Eric Smith wrote:
I submit that you have not even begun to consider the
issues involved in
operating big iron as a personal computer. I've put some effort into it,
and I'm sure I haven't come anywhere close to encountering all of the
pitfalls yet.
In order to reach god status in our little domain here, you must be able
to repair anything that can go wrong with your machine using any resources
that might be available. Basically, that means understanding your
computer at every level, and being able to build a new one from scratch
based on first principles.
It's not easy, but it is possible, and I'd love to read the book(s)
written by one or more of you gods that covers all the knowledge needed
for god status. (I'm currently reading a very old book on transistors so I
can learn to build my own transistors from scratch someday, BTW.)
-- Doug
3:45 p.m.
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5:23 p.m.
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
Making my own transistors is not something I'm
going to try anytime soon.
Actually, if electronic components become impossible to obtain then I
think there will have been such a disaster that getting a computer up and
running will not be the first thing on my mind. Finding food and making
some kind of radio (in that sort of event, I would try a spark
transmitter) would be much more important.
I don't expect to ever need to actually make a transistor from scratch,
but knowing how to do so is one way to really understand the
characteristics of the various materials and components that comprise a
system.
Right now, I can barely trace the simplest of faults, so this pursuit of
god status is a nice long-term hobby that will hopefully ensure that some
of these oddball machines in my collection start to run someday and
continue to run for some time later.
BTW, if, before I reach that status, you're able to dump your brain to
ROM, I'd like to get a copy please.
-- Doug
2 Nov
2 Nov
7:53 a.m.
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4:35 a.m.
At 07:13 PM 11/1/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
In order to reach god status in our little domain here, you must be able
to repair anything that can go wrong with your machine using any resources
that might be available.
No kidding. Although I too hold the greatest admiration for someone
who has the talent to do that, we must keep in mind that while
our definition for "classic computer" is moveable and extends
back ten years (now to November 1988) the time period for
"repairable by human" probably ends at a specific fixed date,
perhaps dooming some classic computer collectors to a certain
time period, based on what they're willing and able to repair.
- John
5:38 a.m.
New subject: Reparing Classics (was Re: PDP-11/44 Boot Prompt)
At 07:13 PM 11/1/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>
>In order to reach god status in our little domain here, you must be able
>to repair anything that can go wrong with your machine using any resources
>that might be available.
I don't know about being a God, but I do try to collect stuff I can
fix myself. I'm good with TTL logic (PDP-8/L, etc.) and can do surface
mount repair, but my theoretical knowledge of switchers is thin, as
is my ability to repair a CRT with no schematics. Fortunately, a
good friend of mine live three blocks away and he *can* fix CRTs with
no schematics.
No kidding. Although I too hold the greatest
admiration for someone
who has the talent to do that, we must keep in mind that while
our definition for "classic computer" is moveable and extends
back ten years (now to November 1988) the time period for
"repairable by human" probably ends at a specific fixed date,
perhaps dooming some classic computer collectors to a certain
time period, based on what they're willing and able to repair.
Able being the key word. Highly integrated stuff is not easy to find
spare parts for, neither are most monitors. I have a Commodore 1950
multisyunc monitor (barely 10 years old). It broke a few years ago.
I happen to have the service manual for it. The flyback was *never*
imported into the U.S. Commodore's policy was to not stock HV components
because that might constitute a policy of permitting repairs, subjecting
them to liability if somone got hurt or died while repairing the monitor.
-ethan
ObCoolRepairHack - It used to be tedious to diagnose and repair DEC M-series
FLIPCHIP modules. After I got a TTL/CMOS IC tester, I rigged up a cable
from a DIP test clip, some ribbon cable and a DIP
header. Now, I plug the
cable into the IC tester, clip the diagnostic clip on a
chip on the M module,
then press "TEST". The battery in the tester has to drive three to four
7400-series ICs, but the tests are valid. I should mention that this is
a bench test, not an in-place test. The I/O leads on the module just go
back and forth to the chip on most modules (the M220 and other dual-height
modules are an exception, of course).
Diagnosing a PDP-8/i is no longer a nightmare - just follow the prints,
make a few educated guesses, test two or three boards and (drawing from
a pile of TESTED spares), back in business.
-ethan
8:20 a.m.
New subject: Reparing Classics (was Re: PDP-11/44 Boot Prompt)
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8:04 a.m.
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11:14 a.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In
other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics
on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...).
I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones
isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that
the ten-year-rule be changed to "computers first made before 19xx?"
I'll leave the date open to debate. :-)
- John
12:03 p.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
Personally I don't have a problem if people want to discuss early PCs here.
I agree there are better forums for a lot of it, but as older styles of PCs,
say, VLB and EISA become more and more obselete, those other forums will
gradually know less and less about them, and they become more and more our
bailiwick. Personally I too find the discussions about old DEC mini's and
apple 2's to be of the most interest because I know something about those
machines, but I'm not willing to say we shouldn't discuss early PCs or Macs.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In
other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics
on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...).
I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones
isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that
the ten-year-rule be changed to "computers first made before 19xx?"
I'll leave the date open to debate. :-)
- John
1:37 p.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
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12:54 a.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
An Epson Equity has just as much "classic" qaulity as an IBM S/34 or a
PDP....just in a different category is all, and smaller. Everyone gets hung
into their own niche and it's easy to see other machines as "junkers"......
Tony Duell wrote:
At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
I wasn't trying to imply that 10-year-old PC clones shouldn't be
discussed here, only that I have a problem with applying the term
'classic' to such machines...
-tony
Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well. In
other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics
on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...).
I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones
isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that 
3 Nov
3 Nov
10:59 a.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Alice Blakeman wrote:
An Epson Equity has just as much "classic"
qaulity as an IBM S/34 or a
PDP....just in a different category is all, and smaller. Everyone gets hung
into their own niche and it's easy to see other machines as
"junkers"......
> > At 07:04 PM 11/2/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
> > >
> > >Yes, but fortunately the starting date doesn't move forwards as well.
In
> > >other words, OK, some 386 PCs with custom chips in them are now classics
> > >on this list (I have a problem with saying that, BTW...).
> >
> > I tend to agree with you. Discussion of ten-year-old IBM PC clones
> > isn't as interesting. Dare I cause a schism by suggesting that
Still though, this may be a good stepping off point to discuss whether
there are any near classic models that will have some appeal. Many
386/486 cpus will flow to the landfill post y2K and it would be a good
idea to get a head start on a personal want list if any qualify.
It might be way early to debate the merits/demerits of Sony PC
products and that shouldn't be the topic. However, there are companies,
some defunct, which might be more interesting than most, many with
lineage to at least the AT and some back to XT days.
So, any unique models or features? ALR? AST? Northgate? Zeos? Everex?
Leading Edge? Anything with a cool LED readout? Plenty of IBM models of
course. Backplane models? Stuff with odd cpu or riser cards?
I've got a Mitsubishi 286 myself with a weird memory card stuck in a
non-ISA slot and seemingly no internal BIOS setup.
Unlike much older classic computers there should be plenty of these for
everybody and anybody. The trick will be to know what you want before
they are cut loose.
The list may be preoccupied with that 10 year discussion limit, but I
don't see preparation for the next wave of material as too off topic.
Remember this isn't just about collecting computers, but actually saving
models and brands more interesting than average. Better to be prepared
than kvetch afterward that some model was hot and too bad you can't find
it nowadays.
I believe this topic has been discussed before, but this time I am
willing to take notes and post a summary about a year from now. Keep this
note as a reminder and anytime you want to add something, post it to the
list if you think we'll all benefit or email me privately.
So, does anybody want to nominate some weirdo or arcane possibilities?
Would anybody like to go riffle through their complete run of Byte and
cull interesting stuff from the reviews and ads?
-- Stephen Dauphin
11:20 a.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
The old 286 machines usually had a setup disk, rather than a bios interface on
ROM. I'd do a search on the model number and see if any web site has archived
the disk.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
12:28 p.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Alice Blakeman wrote:
Still though, this may be a good stepping off point to discuss whether
there are any near classic models that will have some appeal. Many
386/486 cpus will flow to the landfill post y2K and it would be a good
idea to get a head start on a personal want list if any qualify.
So, any unique models or features? ALR? AST? Northgate? Zeos? Everex?
Leading Edge? Anything with a cool LED readout? Plenty of IBM models of
course. Backplane models? Stuff with odd cpu or riser cards?
Hmm... well, there's the Zenith 248 (a '286) and its '386 decendant which
were passive backplane, as were some Wyse systems.
The Wyse machines as well as the Dell System 210 (another 286) were
interesting for their cool LCD readouts.
ALR is interesting in that it made some screamers, usually with a modular
architecture that would let you upgrade processor generations by replacing
a processor module. (Too bad that the modules were usually too expensive
to make that worthwhile.)
I also happen to have two Zeos 486's with the so-called "Modular"
motherboard.
Basically, the ISA slots, all the ports, and most of the logic is on the
motherboard. A processor daughtercard contains the CPU chip, cache module,
and oscillator. Apparently, they made both 386 and 486 systems with this
setup, though both of mine are 486s (a DX33 (now DX2/66) with the
TurboCache module and a DX50 (not a DX2!) with no cache). Both are in what
Zeos called its "Supercase" desktop case (fair amount of space, *two* fans).
You might want to add the Dell System 220 to the list. This is a low-profile
20mhz '286 system that came out about the same time as the first PS/2s.
Dell was clearly following what it assumed was the trend since the system
only had a 3.5" floppy (no room for an internal 5.25") and a 3'5" IDE
hard disk (miserable Conner 340), onboard VGA, etc. It's interesting in
that it was from the era when the debate was over whether a *really*
fast 286 was actually a better deal than a 386. Unfortunately, I chucked
mine several years back after it died.
Anybody know if Dell ever produced any of the System 100s? These were an
8088 (possibly 8086) box which I think was supposed to compete with the
PS/2 Model 25.
Then there's the MCA boxes. A Tandy 4000 (5000?) is interesting in that
it was, I believe, the first non-IBM MCA box. Similarly, there is probably
something to be said for some of the NCR MCA boxes.
Portables- probably anything in a lunchbox format is interesting. Anything
that uses Pen input is interesting. Any "luggable" after the Compaq
Portable II is probably interesting just on the priciple that it likely a
standard board and could be upgraded to something "current". Personally,
I have a soft sport for the NCR Safari NSX20, a fairly early "notebook" and
definately very stylish. (I just saw one in an AT&T closet and would kill
to get it. I personally have the successor the SL/25 aka 3171, but mine has
the typical broken plastics where the hinges attach.) Needless to say also
that the IBM 110 (sold only in Japan), the ThinkPad with the "butterfly"
keyboard, and the Toshiba Libretto will all also be pivotal.
This, of course, is just the PC compatibles.
Then you have the instant-classic iMac and the 20 Anniversary Mac. I also
suspect that the 601-based PowerMacs will have some collector status as
being first of a breed.
Speaking of which, there is the BeBox.
I'll leave someone else to sort out the collectable workstations and other
computers.
<<<john>>>
12:54 p.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, John Ruschmeyer wrote:
Portables- probably anything in a lunchbox format is
interesting. Anything
that uses Pen input is interesting.
That's the main reason I collect portables, it's the only realm that still
has any real innovation.
Here's a heads-up: get a Timex Data-Link watch. Not only is it the most
useful PDA I've found, but it's virtually guaranteed to be collectible as
one of the first useful wearable computers.
Other collectibles made recently: Casio Cassiopeia, the first Windows CE
box; Cross CrossPad; Toshiba Libretto; the IBM 701 (w/butterfly keyboard),
etc.
-- Doug
2:36 p.m.
New subject: Wrist computer (Was: Classic != IBM AT
On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
Here's a heads-up: get a Timex Data-Link watch.
Not only is it the most
useful PDA I've found, but it's virtually guaranteed to be collectible as
one of the first useful wearable computers.
MORE THAN TEN YEARS AGO:
Epson produced the RC-20. It was a wrist watch with a touch screen (not
very many pixels), with a Z80 (actually imitation Z80 - it wasn't Zilog),
RAM, ROM, and a serial port!
They never exported it outside of Japan. So all of the documentation
that I have for it is in Japanese, with the exception of the sample
programs (Zilog mnemonics)
Now then. What is the list definition of "FIRST"?
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219
2:47 p.m.
New subject: Wrist computer (Was: Classic != IBM AT
On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
MORE THAN TEN YEARS AGO:
Epson produced the RC-20. It was a wrist watch with a touch screen (not
very many pixels), with a Z80 (actually imitation Z80 - it wasn't Zilog),
RAM, ROM, and a serial port!
[...]
Now then. What is the list definition of
"FIRST"?
I want one! Of course, there have been many watches with some sort of CPU
for a long time (like the very collectible HP-01 calculator watch). The
Data-Link is the first one I've personally found useful enough to wear,
and it is the only one I personally know of that is user-programmable
(there's even Linux support for downloading WristApps to its 6805).
-- Doug
5:08 p.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
Other collectibles made recently: Casio Cassiopeia,
the first Windows CE
box; Cross CrossPad; Toshiba Libretto; the IBM 701 (w/butterfly keyboard),
etc.
And all the recent Psion handhelds (3, 3a, 3c, 5)
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 11/02/98]
6:20 p.m.
New subject: Classic != IBM AT
Sam Ismail wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
Be careful with the Psion 3. They are _not_ Y2K compliant. My
wife was playing around with hers and found out the hard way --
and removing batteries has not brought it back to life.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
Other collectibles made recently: Casio
Cassiopeia, the first Windows CE
box; Cross CrossPad; Toshiba Libretto; the IBM 701 (w/butterfly keyboard),
etc.
And all the recent Psion handhelds (3, 3a, 3c, 5) 
4 Nov
4 Nov
4:17 a.m.
New subject: Timex datalinks (was: RE: Classic != IBM AT)
Doug Yowza wrote:
Here's a heads-up: get a Timex Data-Link watch.
Not only is it the most
useful PDA I've found, but it's virtually guaranteed to be collectible as
one of the first useful wearable computers.
Mine's on my wrist right now. It's always either there or on my nightstand.
It's extremely useful. You know there are several web sites that cover
writing apps for the later models.
Never thought of it as collectable. I wonder if the little bugger has a
serial number on it somewhere? I got mine at the Microsoft campus store
before they were generally available or even heard of. Cost less than half
of what they ended up retailing for. I was there for a multimedia
bootcamp.
Bill Sudbrink
2 Nov
2 Nov
3:57 a.m.
I've been an operator too, and it is certainly
possible for one person
to be an operator of such a machine. But where are you going to get spare
parts for a 370 when it breaks?
Good question.
Easy answer: replace the chip with an exact duplicate using the spares you
have been picking up all over the place! If it has a little aluminum
covered chip - grab it!
Tough answer: I am not sure how much the S/370 logic would like working
with 10K ECL, but one could burn a PAL to do the required function. S/370
chips were not very complex at all - easily functionally replacable with
the ECL 22V10s. The PALs may also fit!
Several collector *own* big iron, but I have yet to
hear of any *operating*
it. AFAIK, even the Computer Museum Historical Collection is not attempting
to operate any big iron; the closest I've heard of is an attempt to
restore an IBM 1620 (which is only medium iron).
Very true. I do not have any real big iron (I wish I did), so I guess I
can not comment. RCS/RI can keep a PDP-12 operational most of the time,
like my PDP-8/S, but they have their bad days. The RCS/RI VAX-11/750 can
stay up, but that is about it.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
8 a.m.
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4 Nov
4 Nov
11:21 a.m.
I am not talking about 24/7 availability, however. The
11/750 has a lot
of custom gate arrays in it. They may be pretty reliable, but if one
fails, the you have to either buy one from DEC (assuming they still have
them in stock) or raid one from another 11/750. The PDP12 is all TTL +
discretes. It would probably take longer to find the bad component, but I
am darn sure I could find or make a replacement any time in the future.
What about the scads of VAX-11/750 cardsets floating about from all of the
deceased VAXen?
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
1:35 p.m.
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1 Nov
1 Nov
2:18 p.m.
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9393
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27 comments
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participants (15)
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ai705＠osfn.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bill＠chipware.com -
blakeman＠creative-net.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
erd＠infinet.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
hhacker＠gte.net -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jim＠calico.litterbox.com -
jruschme＠exit109.com -
william＠ans.net -
yowza＠yowza.com