24 Nov
2019
24 Nov
'19
2:07 p.m.
The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
mis-information from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
mainly through the hardware side.
Happy computing.
Murray ?
24 Nov
24 Nov
2:59 p.m.
New subject: "First Internet message" and ... A WHOLE LOT OF UNRELATED STUFF.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on
Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
mis-information from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
mainly through the hardware side.
Is that message about
1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying "internet", otherwise
"computer to computer" involves much older history. Definition and
history of the WORD "internet" is also critical, the October 29,
1969 ARPANET message is a more arguable contender.)
BTW, do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to
the December 1974 RFC about TCP?
Therefore, those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on
the internet.
(MOST other messages about "first" anything are arguable due to ignored
prior history (cf. Columbus, Osborne Portable, etc.)
2) one-to-one V one-to-many V many-to-many? (are you saying that it was
one-to-many?)
3) "though cctalk runs through a moderator" CCTALK moderation? (what
is the connection?)
4) internet "democratization"/"freedon"? (or is that a
"contrast"
lead-in for discussing misinformation?)
5) misinformation/unreliability of what you read?
6) computerization of society?
7) cctalk as a view of computerization of society? REALLY?
(a significant resource, ceretainly; telling the story? doubtful)
8) cctalk as being hardware side?
If it is about ALL of those, please break it up into eight paragraphs,
or maybe even eight separate posts, instead of four disjointed sentences,
and flesh it out to make your points about each. You've got some good
points to make, but this salad of concepts doesn't do them justice.
For example, moderation of cctalk might be interpreted as being about a
bottleneck of one/many-to-many, OR as being related to misinformation.
Being thrown into an unrelated sentence takes away meaning.
The October 29, 1969 ARPANET message was "LO". It was claimed to be
"LOGIN", interrupted by system crash. Sometimes misinterpreted as being
slang for "HELLO", or even LOL.
https://thisdayintechhistory.com/10/29/first-message-on-the-internet/
Notice also that they had the sense not to rely on computers for
maintaining the logs! Or maybe handwriting was more economical than
computer resources (cf. "The Feeling Of Power" by Asimov 1958)
3:44 p.m.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 at 23:07, Murray McCullough via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA.
50, not 60.
https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/internet-50-years/
Source: ARPA.
https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/an/2019/02/08726054/1ascidqJPWg
I am not aware of when the second, successful attempt was. Some
sources say, later the same night.
So I think you are 10 years and nearly a month out.
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
3:50 p.m.
Hello all,
That is cool! I have been using the Internet from the time when you
had to sign up with Compuserve or AOL to gain access. There was no
private Internet access like what we have today. I was using a VIC-20,
then a C-64, then a C-128, then an Amiga1000, then on to an Amiga2000,
then an Amiga4000T. Lots of fun and memories.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
On 11/24/2019 5:44 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 at 23:07, Murray McCullough via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago
on Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA.
50, not 60.
https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/internet-50-years/
Source: ARPA.
https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/an/2019/02/08726054/1ascidqJPWg
I am not aware of when the second, successful attempt was. Some
sources say, later the same night.
So I think you are 10 years and nearly a month out.
4:11 p.m.
On 11/24/19 5:07 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on
Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
mis-information from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
mainly through the hardware side.
Happy computing.
Murray ?
OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
Pick a topic and get concise.
Gah,
8:37 p.m.
Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this sort of thing, even if they
get every detail wrong. You weren't present for this event, and even
"expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong. I lived
through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
teacher.
I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969. Beyond
the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
"Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.
It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
and there are many more errors than there are successes. It has to be that
way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.
One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
doomed to repeat them. It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics. Complaining
about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
steeped in the details as we are.
All the Best,
Jim
On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
Pick a topic and get concise.
Gah,
8:43 p.m.
Jim,
Well said and Thank-you!
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!
On 11/24/2019 10:37 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this
sort of thing, even if they
get every detail wrong. You weren't present for this event, and even
"expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong. I lived
through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
teacher.
I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969. Beyond
the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
"Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.
It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
and there are many more errors than there are successes. It has to be that
way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.
One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
doomed to repeat them. It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics. Complaining
about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
steeped in the details as we are.
All the Best,
Jim
On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
> Pick a topic and get concise.
>
> Gah,
>
10:16 p.m.
Yes.
But what REALLY happened was even more exciting than some cockamamy TV
news "Birthday of the internet!" headline story with a segue into malware
and fake news warnings.
The message being discussed, "LO[GIN]", was an important "proof of
concept" of what could eventually be done.
More worrisome is that Murray is NOT A "NEWCOMER" who will be "scared
off"
by corrections of his facts! This is not the first time that he has
needed to be admonished to be VERY specific about what was "FIRST" about
something. He wrote about the exact same event three weeks ago, on the
correct date, with much more accurate details, other than calling it "the
first inter-computer communication". Not sure where he got the November
21 date, nor the "SIXTY years ago" (probably a simple misteak)
He is quite capable of some fairly good writing. I don't remember any
prior time that he had to be reminded to "PICK A TOPIC!" rather than
string together eight unrelated concepts into four sentences.
On the other hand, if his confusion was recreational, that's OK, too.
Let's have a toast with him to the people who got the idea to work,
disunirregardless of who was "first".
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this
sort of thing, even if they
get every detail wrong. You weren't present for this event, and even
"expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong. I lived
through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
teacher.
I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969. Beyond
the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
"Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.
It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
and there are many more errors than there are successes. It has to be that
way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.
One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
doomed to repeat them. It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics. Complaining
about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
steeped in the details as we are.
All the Best,
Jim
On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>
> OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
> Pick a topic and get concise.
>
> Gah,
25 Nov
25 Nov
2:58 a.m.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:38, Jim Manley via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
That is something I would _really_ like to hear. Sadly I am on the
wrong continent for it and that's not likely to change in the
foreseeable future. Between new baby, Eastern European salary, US
government and its dim view of journalists, greenhouse-gas footprint
of gratuitous intercontinental travel and so on, I may never visit
North America again.
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
8:20 a.m.
On 11/24/2019 04:07 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on
Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA.
2019 - 60 = 1959. Yes, there were a few computers then, and
serial communication over phone lines was possible.
But, "Internet"?? Did they actually use TCP/IP? No, not
invented yet.
Jon
8:55 a.m.
2019 - 60 = 1959. Yes, there were a few computers
then, and
serial communication over phone lines was possible.
But, "Internet"?? Did they actually use TCP/IP? No, not
invented yet.
Like most things, the colors of computer networking history get
extremely blurred and runny, like using watercolors on toilet paper.
--
Will
9:16 a.m.
On 11/25/19 8:55 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
Like most things, the colors of computer networking
history get
extremely blurred and runny, like using watercolors on toilet paper.
A lot on the subject has been written. Sometimes they even go back to primary
sources. Most times, they just regurgitate what others have written.
Maybe things will get better as access to the primary sources that still
exist gets requires less work.
11:15 a.m.
Taking the risk of opening another can of worms...
ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network. I believe SITA HLN
was world-wide by 1969. However it was a mix of switching technologies
from fully automated to manual depending on what part
of the world you
were in. Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully
automatic data routing in 1966.
And ARPANET wasn't the largest data network when TCP/IP was formalized
in the early 80s. We only recognize it as the 'Internet' because of
it's lineage.
-Alan
On 2019-11-24 17:07, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on
Nov. 21 between SRI
and
UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world
today
is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
mis-information from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
mainly through the hardware side.
Happy computing.
Murray ?
11:29 a.m.
ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network.
I believe SITA HLN
was world-wide by 1969. However it was a mix of switching technologies
from fully automated to manual depending on what part of the world you
were in. Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully
automatic data routing in 1966.
AUTODIN was also worldwide by the late 1960s. While it did not allow
interactivity between computers - well, back then that really was not
much of a thing - It did allow email and generic file transfer (stack
of cards - what a file was back then) between varying computer
systems.
And then there was a Western Electric system that I forget the name
of. I have one of the tape drive racks in my garage (videos of this
and my AUTODIN junk eventually)..
--
Will
11:35 a.m.
On 11/25/19 11:15 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
Taking the risk of opening another can of worms...
ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network.? I believe SITA HLN
was world-wide by 1969.? However it was a mix of switching technologies
from fully automated to manual depending on what part of the world you
were in.? Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully
automatic data routing in 1966.
And ARPANET wasn't the largest data network when TCP/IP was formalized
in the early 80s.? We only recognize it as the 'Internet' because of
it's lineage.
Does nobody remember AUTODIN?
--Chuck
12:16 p.m.
On 11/25/19 2:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 11/25/19 11:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
Yeah. That's what I thought--or even WWMCCS.
Well, just to keep a lot people from going to bed tonite
in tears..... :-)
Having been military communicator starting in the late 60's
I remember both AUTODIN and WWMCCS.
bill
Does
nobody remember AUTODIN?
Basically, no. 
26 Nov
26 Nov
4:44 a.m.
"Since 2016, the AP stylebook now recommends lowercasing ?internet?
and ?web.? Whenever you refer to the Internet as a proper noun
(i.e. you are referring to the World Wide Web), then Internet
should be capitalized. If you are referring to a general network
of computers, then you can use the lowercase internet."
- John
2166
days inactive
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18 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
alan＠alanlee.org -
allisonportable＠gmail.com -
bill.gunshannon＠hotmail.com -
c.murray.mccullough＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jim.manley＠gmail.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mechanic_2＠charter.net -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com