1 Jul
2016
1 Jul
'16
9:28 p.m.
I'm trying to preserve my Acorn ADFS 3.5" discs. To this end, I've purchased
a KryoFlux "Pro" board and a new-old-stock ALPS floppy drive.
I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM and everything *seems* to be working.
However, the .adl images I create are all 0KB in size.
I've created a profile to match the discs I'm reading (256byte sector size, tracks
0-79, MFM encoding, interleaved sides).
Recording the flux transitions captures data, but when I run the resultant data back
through DTC I get the same.
Any ideas?
-Austin.
Sent from my iPad
2 Jul
2 Jul
3:06 a.m.
On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Austin Pass <austinpass at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm trying to preserve my Acorn ADFS 3.5"
discs. To this end, I've purchased a KryoFlux "Pro" board and a
new-old-stock ALPS floppy drive.
I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM and everything *seems* to be working.
However, the .adl images I create are all 0KB in size.
A 0kb file - or one smaller than expected - means that the DTC program
was not able to make sense of some (or in this case, all) of the flux
transitions in terms of the format you selected. If I don't know what
I'm dealing with, I found it useful to read the disk in "raw" mode
first (where it makes a large file for each track) and then set DTC
against those flux files until I found the right combination of
settings to produce an image. A lot less wear on the disk and drive
vs. attempting to translate on the fly and failing a lot. You'll want
to get to know the command line options intimately - the GUI can't do
it all.
Their forums are very useful for sorting out disk format details -
whatever you're reading, there's usually someone who has tried before
and gotten help. Here's a post on Acorn ADFS:
http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?t=849
(I know nothing of Acorn, so that may not be what you're trying to do.)
All DTC settings matter. In many cases, the order of the settings
matter, a lot. I've spent many hours banging my head against the
desk, only to find I had switched to flags around.
7:51 p.m.
I'm coming to the same conclusion - command line the way to go!
Dumping the flux transitions (the "raw" mode your describe) certainly
produces data, but I'm in the same boat when it comes to using DTC to put
it in a readable image format.
-Austin
On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Austin Pass
<austinpass at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm trying to preserve my Acorn ADFS
3.5" discs. To this end, I've
purchased a KryoFlux "Pro" board
and a new-old-stock ALPS floppy drive.
I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM and everything *seems* to be
working. However, the .adl images I create are all 0KB in size.
A 0kb file - or one smaller than expected - means that the DTC program
was not able to make sense of some (or in this case, all) of the flux
transitions in terms of the format you selected. If I don't know what
I'm dealing with, I found it useful to read the disk in "raw" mode
first (where it makes a large file for each track) and then set DTC
against those flux files until I found the right combination of
settings to produce an image. A lot less wear on the disk and drive
vs. attempting to translate on the fly and failing a lot. You'll want
to get to know the command line options intimately - the GUI can't do
it all.
Their forums are very useful for sorting out disk format details -
whatever you're reading, there's usually someone who has tried before
and gotten help. Here's a post on Acorn ADFS:
http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?t=849
(I know nothing of Acorn, so that may not be what you're trying to do.)
All DTC settings matter. In many cases, the order of the settings
matter, a lot. I've spent many hours banging my head against the
desk, only to find I had switched to flags around.
3:31 a.m.
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, Austin Pass wrote:
I'm trying to preserve my Acorn ADFS 3.5"
discs. To this end, I've
purchased a KryoFlux "Pro" board and a new-old-stock ALPS floppy drive.
I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM and everything *seems* to be
working. However, the .adl images I create are all 0KB in size.
I've created a profile to match the discs I'm reading (256byte sector
size, tracks 0-79, MFM encoding, interleaved sides).
Recording the flux transitions captures data, but when I run the
resultant data back through DTC I get the same.
Any ideas?
"everything *seems* to be working"
Have you tried using the drive without the Kryoflex?
Have you confirmed that your kryoflex setup is working with anything
that it is KNOWN to work with?
I think that Acorn is a "normal" IBM/WD style MFM, but I'm not sure.
So, the first step is to determine whether the Kryoflex is not working
right, or whether it is a problem with Acorn format.
Therefore, make some .adl files from 720K PC-DOS floppies.
If THAT process fails, then go to the Kryoflex forums with THAT problem,
since it removes all variable other than your computer, your drive, and
your Kryoflex.
If that works, then lets look at other potential problems with the Acorn
compatability with it.
For example, if the Acorn was using a WD controller chip, there is a
possibility that it started writing soon enough after index that the
system isn't ready.
Do you know the physical format that your Acorn disks are using?
Can you read sectors from them with stock PC hardware? (INT13h; if sector
size other than 512 bytes, then INT1Eh also)
What capacity are they?
Do you know for sure that the recording on these disks are intact?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
7:50 p.m.
Thanks for the feedback Fred.
The Kryoflux Forums are admin-approval-only and I've been waiting a couple
of days for that to happen.
To the best of my own knowledge it's a pretty standard MFM, as the
computers featured the Western Digital 1770 and 1772 controllers.
The specific discs I'm trying to image are 800KB "double density" designed
for the 32 bit ARM based computers. I can't find any 720KB PC floppies,
but I'll follow the methodology with 1.44MB HD ones to see where it takes
me.
-Austin.
On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, Austin Pass wrote:
I'm trying to preserve my Acorn ADFS
3.5" discs. To this end, I've
purchased a KryoFlux "Pro" board and a new-old-stock ALPS floppy drive.
I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM and everything *seems* to be
working. However, the .adl images I create are all 0KB in size.
I've created a profile to match the discs I'm reading (256byte sector
size, tracks 0-79, MFM encoding, interleaved sides).
Recording the flux transitions captures data, but when I run the
resultant data back through DTC I get the same.
Any ideas?
"everything *seems* to be working"
Have you tried using the drive without the Kryoflex?
Have you confirmed that your kryoflex setup is working with anything that
it is KNOWN to work with?
I think that Acorn is a "normal" IBM/WD style MFM, but I'm not sure.
So, the first step is to determine whether the Kryoflex is not working
right, or whether it is a problem with Acorn format.
Therefore, make some .adl files from 720K PC-DOS floppies.
If THAT process fails, then go to the Kryoflex forums with THAT problem,
since it removes all variable other than your computer, your drive, and
your Kryoflex.
If that works, then lets look at other potential problems with the Acorn
compatability with it.
For example, if the Acorn was using a WD controller chip, there is a
possibility that it started writing soon enough after index that the system
isn't ready.
Do you know the physical format that your Acorn disks are using?
Can you read sectors from them with stock PC hardware? (INT13h; if sector
size other than 512 bytes, then INT1Eh also)
What capacity are they?
Do you know for sure that the recording on these disks are intact?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
8:25 p.m.
On Sat, 2 Jul 2016, Austin Pass wrote:
Thanks for the feedback Fred.
The Kryoflux Forums are admin-approval-only and I've been waiting a couple
of days for that to happen.
To the best of my own knowledge it's a pretty standard MFM, as the
computers featured the Western Digital 1770 and 1772 controllers.
The specific discs I'm trying to image are 800KB "double density" designed
for the 32 bit ARM based computers. I can't find any 720KB PC floppies,
but I'll follow the methodology with 1.44MB HD ones to see where it takes
me.
Although there will be a slight loss of long-term reliability (not an
issue here), you can cover the media sensing hole of a 1.4M diskette and
format it into 720K
FORMAT B: /F:2
FORMAT B: /F:720
FORMAT B: /T:80/N:9
(all do the same thing)
Then copy some files to it, so that there will be something interesting to
see.
That will be similar enough to the Acorn diskettes (if we are right about
the details of the Acorn format).
AND, then if those don't work either, then the Kryoflex forums won't get
sidetracked into thinking that it is an Acorn issue.
I think that THAT would be inevitable if you don't separate out whether
the problem is with Kryoflex V Acorn!
Is the capacity of the diskette 800K? or is that merely the name of the
type of the diskette, with an actual capacity of somewhere between 640K
and 800K?
If the actual capacity is 800K, with MFM, then it would probably be 80
track, double sided, with either 10 512 byte sectors or 5 1024 byte
sectors per track. (can't get up to 800K with "normal" WD style MFM with
256 bytes per sector, and 512 byte sectors are a little tight)
If so, then it should be feasible to copy sectors from those disks in
MS-DOS on a 5150 or 5160, using INT13h. Don't know whether it could be
done in Windoze8.
AFTER you get it working for all functions that you need with simple
stuff, you should be able to do 8" with it. The 8" interface and behavior
is virtually identical to that of a 5.25" 1.2M!
Only a few pins need rearrangement on a 50 pin to 34 pin cable.
If you want to WRITE to 8", then you may want to also deal with TG43.
There is a commercial adapter (FDADAP) for that, which would also take
care of the rest of the cabling.
Be aware that power supplies are not standardized for 8"; you'll need to
make your own if you get a drive without one.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:15 p.m.
Is the capacity of the diskette 800K? or is that merely the name of the
type of the diskette, with an actual capacity of somewhere between 640K
and 800K?
If the actual capacity is 800K, with MFM, then it would probably be 80
track, double sided, with either 10 512 byte sectors or 5 1024 byte
sectors per track. (can't get up to 800K with "normal" WD style MFM with
256 bytes per sector, and 512 byte sectors are a little tight)
The original ADFS had 16 sectors of 256 bytes per track. However, it appears
that more recent ADFS formats use 5 sectors of 1024 bytes. There are more
details here:
http://mdfs.net/Docs/Comp/Disk/Format/Formats
Regards,
Peter Coghlan
10:38 p.m.
On 07/02/2016 02:15 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
The original ADFS had 16 sectors of 256 bytes per track. However, it
appears that more recent ADFS formats use 5 sectors of 1024 bytes.
There are more details here:
http://mdfs.net/Docs/Comp/Disk/Format/Formats
Since I don't have an Acorn, I'm a bit in the dark about all of this
talk about Kyroflux. Wouldn't it be simpler to use a legacy PC floppy
controller?
I've copied RX02 disks using the Catweasel. Tim Mann wrote a nice set
of utilities to do just that.
--Chuck
11:51 p.m.
On 07/02/2016 02:15 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
> The original ADFS had 16 sectors of 256 bytes per track. However, it
> appears that more recent ADFS formats use 5 sectors of 1024 bytes.
> There are more details here:
> http://mdfs.net/Docs/Comp/Disk/Format/Formats
. . . and the "F" and "F+" would require a "high density"
drive
(not clear from that chart, but probably 1.4M)
On Sat, 2 Jul 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Since I don't have an Acorn, I'm a bit in the
dark about all of this
talk about Kyroflux. Wouldn't it be simpler to use a legacy PC floppy
controller?
I agree. It seems like it to me.
I don't the the Acorn file system, so couldn't extract files.
But reading sectors should not be a problem, although there are certainly
SOME things that Acorn could have done that would confound an NEC FDC.
If the sector headers are "normal", then INT1Eh (to set the sector size),
followed by INT13h should work.
But, if OP can get his Kryoflex setup to work with DOS 720K, then the
Acorn 640K and 800K should be doable.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
4 Jul
4 Jul
9:43 a.m.
On 03/07/2016 00:51, Fred Cisin wrote:
Yes, they do. The rest of the ADFS formats use ordinary DSDD drives.
On 07/02/2016
02:15 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
> The original ADFS had 16 sectors of 256 bytes per track. However, it
> appears that more recent ADFS formats use 5 sectors of 1024 bytes.
> There are more details here:
> http://mdfs.net/Docs/Comp/Disk/Format/Formats
. . . and the "F" and "F+" would require a "high density"
drive
(not clear from that chart, but probably 1.4M) I don't the the Acorn file system, so couldn't
extract files.
But reading sectors should not be a problem, although there are
certainly SOME things that Acorn could have done that would confound an
NEC FDC.
If the sector headers are "normal", then INT1Eh (to set the sector
size), followed by INT13h should work.
Acorn formatter s/w doesn't write the optional "index mark" before the
first sector so some PCs have trouble understanding Acorn disks.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
4:46 p.m.
On 07/04/2016 01:43 AM, pete wrote:
Acorn formatter s/w doesn't write the optional "index mark" before the
first sector so some PCs have trouble understanding Acorn disks.
If that's a problem on a PC (today it rarely is, but it was in the days
before the "A" revision of the 8272/765 came out, it's a simple matter
to simply block the index signal off the drive cable--it's not needed
for sector reads.
--Chuck
3 Jul
3 Jul
midnight
On the porch looking at your cabinet and my chair.
Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2016 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: Disc Imaging / Kryoflux - Acorn ADFS 800KB
On 07/02/2016 02:15 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
The original ADFS had 16 sectors of 256 bytes per track. However, it
appears that more recent ADFS formats use 5 sectors of 1024 bytes.
There are more details here:
http://mdfs.net/Docs/Comp/Disk/Format/Formats
Since I don't have an Acorn, I'm a bit in the dark about all of this
talk about Kyroflux. Wouldn't it be simpler to use a legacy PC floppy
controller?
I've copied RX02 disks using the Catweasel. Tim Mann wrote a nice set
of utilities to do just that.
--Chuck
12:14 a.m.
On Jul 2, 2016, at 2:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Since I don't have an Acorn, I'm a bit in the
dark about all of this
talk about Kyroflux. Wouldn't it be simpler to use a legacy PC floppy
controller?
Indeed ImageDisk works just fine to read and write every standard (non-copy-protected)
ADFS and DFS format disk I've encountered.
ok
bear.
--
until further notice
12:04 a.m.
On Sat, 2 Jul 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote:
The original ADFS had 16 sectors of 256 bytes per
track. However, it appears
that more recent ADFS formats use 5 sectors of 1024 bytes. There are more
details here:
http://mdfs.net/Docs/Comp/Disk/Format/Formats
Thank you!
Note: the use of the term "quad" density in this chart is not the same as,
but a more rational use of the term than, the misuse that was prevalent in
the days of 640K - 800K 5.25" CP/M
1:41 p.m.
On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie>
wrote:
Thanks everyone.
All working now - there were two issues at play.
1) Wrong settings for DTC. Used the linked-to document to change to
1024Byte sectors, tracks 0-79 and sectors 0-5. I record the stream file of
flux transitions as before (a preference in any event) and when I process
it with the aforementioned settings I get an 800KB .adl image file. This
mounts up in an emulator very nicely:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hjgz3416htlryrm/Screen%20Shot%202016-07-03%20at%2…
2) The initial disc I used was an original disk for a game - SWIV. I
suspect that it either uses some interesting copy protection mechanism or
the media is faulty. The above method works for 9/10 discs but not the one
I originally selected for testing. Lesson learned - use known good media
or a selection of suspect ones.
-Austin.
Is the capacity of the diskette 800K? or is that
merely the name of the
type of the diskette, with an actual capacity of somewhere between 640K and
800K?
If the actual capacity is 800K, with MFM, then it would probably be 80
track, double sided, with either 10 512 byte sectors or 5 1024 byte sectors
per track. (can't get up to 800K with "normal" WD style MFM with 256
bytes
per sector, and 512 byte sectors are a little tight)
The original ADFS had 16 sectors of 256 bytes per track. However, it
appears
that more recent ADFS formats use 5 sectors of 1024 bytes. There are more
details here:
http://mdfs.net/Docs/Comp/Disk/Format/Formats
Regards,
Peter Coghlan
2 Jul
2 Jul
3:01 p.m.
On 1 July 2016 at 22:28, Austin Pass <austinpass at gmail.com> wrote:
I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM
A *VM*?
Oh, come on. Be serious. If you're troubleshooting hardware, use
hardware. No blasted VMs. I'm amazed anything worked at all via a VM.
Also, 8.1 is relatively speaking obsolete and unpopular. I'd suggest
W10 as it's a free download, for the rest of this month at least.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
7:58 p.m.
On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
On 1 July 2016 at 22:28, Austin Pass <austinpass at
gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Liam.
Although in this particular instance I have a high degree of confidence
that the use of a VM (Parallels on an iMac running 10.11) and Windows 8.1
isn't the root of my problems.
I can download firmware to the Kryoflux and calibrate it successfully. I
can also pull raw flux transitions from the disc to a dump file, and watch
the histograms plotted in the GUI whilst it does this.
Had to pack the interesting stuff away this evening as I needed the space
for modern stuff (fully loaded C7000 BladeCenter for anybody wondering
exactly *how much* space ;-) but I'll have another go tomorrow morning if
the kids will leave me alone for long enough.
Apologies for the top-posting in my other two replies to the list. I did
it without thinking as I'm using the Gmail web interface.
-Austin.
I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM
A *VM*?
Oh, come on. Be serious. If you're troubleshooting hardware, use
hardware. No blasted VMs. I'm amazed anything worked at all via a VM.
Also, 8.1 is relatively speaking obsolete and unpopular. I'd suggest
W10 as it's a free download, for the rest of this month at least.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
8:27 p.m.
On 2 July 2016 at 20:58, Austin Pass <austinpass at gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Liam.
Although in this particular instance I have a high degree of confidence
that the use of a VM (Parallels on an iMac running 10.11) and Windows 8.1
isn't the root of my problems.
I still wouldn't trust it for something as hardware- and
timing-sensitive as this.
And I'm typing on a Mac, and yes, I have a Windows VM on it too.
Apologies for the top-posting in my other two replies
to the list. I did
it without thinking as I'm using the Gmail web interface.
(?)
So am I. Its bottom-posting support is fine. Hit Ctrl-A, trim, reply.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
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17 comments
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austinpass＠gmail.com -
bear＠typewritten.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
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pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
silent700＠gmail.com