4 Oct
2011
4 Oct
'11
5:39 p.m.
So. 75 new mails in the cctalk folder since I checked my mail this morning:
- Sometimes people on eBay are not honest. Sometimes people overreact
to this. Sometimes people overreact to the overreaction.
- Your college degree doesn't mean much. Or it means something.
Maybe. Regardless, a BS is a foot in the door / waste of time / stupid
requirement / very useful / a floor wax / a dessert topping / a
communist plot. (Choose only 2.)
- Sometimes hiring practices are suboptimal or unfair. Especially in
the corporate world. This is because HR departments are full of
stupid-heads who refuse to acknowledge your greatness.
- No one intelligent (er, "truly hard core") uses or buys Microsoft
products, EVER. (EVER!)
- Mail readers exist. Some are better than others, possibly. Sometimes
you can even use them to do stupid things!
- Nothing made in the last 30 years has improved Tony's life one iota.
(Not even self-adhesive stamps?! But they're so handy!)
- Hey, did you hear that HR people / managers are stupid?
- Thunderbird sucks / no it's ok!
- Some people have axes to grind with other people.
- Did you know that if you replace "soft" with "shit" in the name of a
certain large software company, it makes people take you seriously?
(It's true!)
- Some nonsense about some old HP computer thing. What the hell is
*that* discussion doing here?
Can we... maybe discuss old computers again? Pleeeeeeeze?
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power
brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be
working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
- Josh
4 Oct
4 Oct
5:59 p.m.
On 04/10/11 8:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
So. 75 new mails in the cctalk folder since I checked
my mail this morning:
- Sometimes people on eBay are not honest. Sometimes people overreact to
this. Sometimes people overreact to the overreaction.
- Your college degree doesn't mean much. Or it means something. Maybe.
Regardless, a BS is a foot in the door / waste of time / stupid
requirement / very useful / a floor wax / a dessert topping / a
communist plot. (Choose only 2.)
- Sometimes hiring practices are suboptimal or unfair. Especially in the
corporate world. This is because HR departments are full of stupid-heads
who refuse to acknowledge your greatness.
- No one intelligent (er, "truly hard core") uses or buys Microsoft
products, EVER. (EVER!)
- Mail readers exist. Some are better than others, possibly. Sometimes
you can even use them to do stupid things!
- Nothing made in the last 30 years has improved Tony's life one iota.
(Not even self-adhesive stamps?! But they're so handy!)
- Hey, did you hear that HR people / managers are stupid?
- Thunderbird sucks / no it's ok!
- Some people have axes to grind with other people.
- Did you know that if you replace "soft" with "shit" in the name of
a
certain large software company,
No, no, you jumped to conclusions. To be perfectly clear I meant
_Microshit Inc.,_ the makers of strangely popular yet widely disliked
(hmmmm) software.
Lest there be any further confusion, their stock ticker is SHIT.
--Toby
it makes people take you seriously?
(It's true!)
- Some nonsense about some old HP computer thing. What the hell is
*that* discussion doing here?
Can we... maybe discuss old computers again? Pleeeeeeeze?
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power brick
suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working
OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
- Josh
6:16 p.m.
On 10/04/2011 08:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
- No one intelligent (er, "truly hard core")
uses or buys Microsoft
products, EVER. (EVER!)
Present company very, very much excluded of course, as usual.
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original
TRS-80 Model I power brick
suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working
OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
Are they openable? I don't have one in front of me, and I don't
think I've ever looked.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
7:08 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model I Power Brick (was Re: In summary...)
On 10/4/2011 6:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Now that I take a closer look at it, it does look like it might be
possible to open it (it appears to be hollow, unlike the C64 supplies
which are solid blocks). No screws that I can find, looks like there's
a bottom plate that's glued to the rest of the case. I might try
carefully prying it open, hopefully it won't crack in the process...
- Josh
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original
TRS-80 Model I power brick
suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working
OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
Are they openable? I don't have one in front of me, and I don't
think I've ever looked.
-Dave
10:46 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model I Power Brick (was Re: In summary...)
On 10/4/11 7:08 PM, "Josh Dersch" <derschjo at mail.msu.edu> wrote:
On 10/4/2011 6:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Now that I take a closer look at it, it does look like it might be
possible to open it (it appears to be hollow, unlike the C64 supplies
which are solid blocks). No screws that I can find, looks like there's
a bottom plate that's glued to the rest of the case. I might try
carefully prying it open, hopefully it won't crack in the process...
- Josh
>
> -Dave
Some of them were able to be opened, there were hidden screws in the bottom
of some, there were also some that were 2 piece plastic heat-fused? Or
glued together.
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original
TRS-80 Model I power brick
suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working
OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
Are they openable? I don't have one in front of me, and I don't
think I've ever looked. 
11:08 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model I Power Brick (was Re: In summary...)
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Geoffrey Reed <geoffr at zipcon.net> wrote:
Some of them were able to be opened, there were hidden
screws in the bottom
of some, ?there were also some that were 2 piece plastic heat-fused? Or
glued together.
Does anyone know if the technique of tapping along the seam will work
with the Apple //c brick power supply? which to me shows no sign of
hidden screws and looks to me "almost" seamless.
7:59 p.m.
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original
TRS-80 Model I power brick
suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working
OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
Are they openable? I don't have one in front of me, and I don't
think I've ever looked.
Anything CAN be opened.
Although there are better ways, the most popular way was to decelerate it
with a hard surface, such as a wall or floor. A lot were opened on
failure at the 5th West Coast Computer Faire.
The usual repair was replacing the fuse.
9:21 p.m.
On 4 Oct 2011 at 17:39, Josh Dersch wrote:
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original
TRS-80 Model I power
brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20
power bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to
be working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
Easy enough to open. I prefer using a rawhide mallet of the sort
used by jewelers. Just go round and round, tapping firmly on the
seam between the halves. Eventually, the thing just comes apart--
with no broken pieces.
--Chuck
9:36 p.m.
On 10/4/2011 9:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 4 Oct 2011 at 17:39, Josh Dersch wrote:
Yep, coincidentally enough I just got done doing approximately the same
thing you just described, and it came apart with no major trouble.
Inside there's a transformer connected to a small PCB with a fuse and a
pair of diodes. No capacitors, so I suspect there's not a great deal
that can go wrong with it.
Good to know. Now to dig out my cassettes... :)
- Josh
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the
original TRS-80 Model I power
brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20
power bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to
be working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
Easy enough to
open. I prefer using a rawhide mallet of the sort
used by jewelers. Just go round and round, tapping firmly on the
seam between the halves. Eventually, the thing just comes apart--
with no broken pieces.
--Chuck
10:50 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
-sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny,
and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
11:11 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 6:50 AM, Geoffrey Reed <geoffr at zipcon.net> wrote:
-sigh- ?need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone
thought they'd be funny,
and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? ?I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
A good locksmith can pick the lock for you probably
A picture of the lock barrel that is used in these may help
I have sometimes made skeleton keys to get into stuff, then taken the
barrel/whatever lock design apart then made a suitable key. One I
swapped the pins to fit a key I had.
Dave Caroline
5 Oct
5 Oct
10:42 a.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Dave Caroline wrote:
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 6:50 AM, Geoffrey Reed
<geoffr at zipcon.net> wrote:
The 5170 used an ACE (tubular/round key) lock. A REAL one, not the "latch
that looks like a lock" that many generic clones used.
-sigh- ?need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone
thought they'd be funny,
and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? ?I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
A good locksmith can pick the lock for you probably
A picture of the lock barrel that is used in these may help
I have sometimes made skeleton keys to get into stuff, then taken the
barrel/whatever lock design apart then made a suitable key. One I
swapped the pins to fit a key I had.
4 Oct
4 Oct
11:14 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On 4 Oct 2011 at 22:50, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
-sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone
thought they'd be
funny, and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
I don't think that the stock 5170 ever had a case lock. You might
have one with a gray trim plate on the back covering up all the
screws, but you just pry that gently off. That lock in the front of
the machine is for locking out the keyboard. Once you've got the
system open, just disconnect the leads that go to the motherboard and
you're in business.
If you have some aftermarket lock, drill the bugger out with a nice
tough cobalt drill bit.
--Chuck
5 Oct
5 Oct
10:50 a.m.
New subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic....
On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I don't think that the stock 5170 ever had a case
lock. You might
have one with a gray trim plate on the back covering up all the
screws, but you just pry that gently off. That lock in the front of
the machine is for locking out the keyboard. Once you've got the
system open, just disconnect the leads that go to the motherboard and
you're in business.
If you have some aftermarket lock, drill the bugger out with a nice
tough cobalt drill bit.
I HAVE seen stock 5170s with a cam on the lock.
But, I can't say whether they all had a cam, since who the hell would LOCK
it??
The case MIGHT have enough flex to get it open once the screws are out
with minimal damage.
Once it is open, take out the screw on the back of the cam lock, and flip
the cam over, so that neither of its two positions engages the strike.
11:16 a.m.
New subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic....
On 5 Oct 2011 at 10:50, Fred Cisin wrote:
I HAVE seen stock 5170s with a cam on the lock.
But, I can't say whether they all had a cam, since who the hell would
LOCK it??
I've never seen a 5170 with a factory case-lock, but I don't doubt
that there was a market for them that was filled by IBM. Locking
things back then was very popular--I used to have a Mitsubishi
workstation monitor with a key-lock on the adjustment drawer--and of
course, no key. Or HP Vectras with very difficult to defeat case
locks...
Has anyone tried the famous Kryptonite bike lock-Bic pen unlocking
trick on a 5170 case lock?
http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2004/09/64987
--Chuck
2:09 p.m.
New subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic....
I HAVE seen stock 5170s with a cam on the lock.
Mine certainly does
But, I can't say whether they all had a cam, since
who the hell would LOCK
it??
The Hardware Maintenance and Service manual for the PC/AT (the only IBM
boardswapper book I have) says they have a case lock, and gives the
procedure for removing the lock from the LED panel. But that assumes
you've got it open.
The case MIGHT have enough flex to get it open once the screws are out
with minimal damage.
Once it is open, take out the screw on the back of the cam lock, and flip
the cam over, so that neither of its two positions engages the strike.
The only ptoblem is that the actuator operates a microswitch too, to
disable the keyboard. You will have to open/short this if you remvoe the
actuator.
I'd unlock it or repin it. This involves dismantling the lock itself.
Basically, from ehat I remmeber :
Remvoe the LED/swithc panel from the machine (3 screws), then unscrew the
microswithc fixings, remove the nut from the back of the lock, take off
the actuator, peel off the label on the front, pull out the locking clip
and slide the lcok out (this is in the IBM manual).
On the side of the lock you'll see a pin, about 1/8" in diameter. Drill
this out cafefully. The lock then comes apart from the back. It's like a
Yale (cylidner) lock rearranged round the disk, of course. 2 pins in each
hole with a springe behind them The notches in the key push the pins to
the right depths so that the division between the pins lines up with the
back surface of the (rotating) disk.
To re-pin the lock, all you have to do is make new pins of the right
lengths to suit a key you have. This is not difficult. Nor is making a
new pin to hold the thing together to replace the one you drilled out.
-tony
4:37 p.m.
New subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic....
> Once it is open, take out the screw on the back
of the cam lock, and flip
> the cam over, so that neither of its two positions engages the strike.
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
The only ptoblem is that the actuator operates a
microswitch too, to
disable the keyboard. You will have to open/short this if you remvoe the
actuator.
IFF there were reason to do so, it shouldn't be very difficult
(mechanically) to modify it so that the switch portion remains functional,
but not the case latch. It's been enough years since I've done so that I
don't remember the details [ACCURATELY], but I think that I WOULD remember
if it were to have been non-trivial.
6 Oct
6 Oct
12:42 p.m.
New subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic....
> Once it is open, take out the screw on the
back of the cam lock, and flip
> the cam over, so that neither of its two positions engages the strike.
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
The only ptoblem is that the actuator operates a
microswitch too, to
disable the keyboard. You will have to open/short this if you remvoe the
actuator.
IFF there were reason to do so, it shouldn't be very difficult
(mechanically) to modify it so that the switch portion remains functional,
9 Oct
9 Oct
5:02 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On 10/4/11 11:14 PM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 4 Oct 2011 at 22:50, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
Looks like I have some work to do, I got the case off, the microswitch for
the keyboard on/off is split in half (was held together by the plastic pin
and the screw that held it in place.
The lock itself is corroded. So much so that one of the pins is fused in
place :( so it is out of there.
The CMOS battery needs to be replaced, luckily it hadn't started to leak and
drip from the pack.
And the switches on the XCELX accelerator are broken and it won't even try
to POST with those broken off. (bodies popped off, and I need to make sure
that none of the metal parts from inside are shorting anything before
applying power
-sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone
thought they'd be
funny, and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
I don't think that the stock 5170 ever had a case lock. You might
have one with a gray trim plate on the back covering up all the
screws, but you just pry that gently off. That lock in the front of
the machine is for locking out the keyboard. Once you've got the
system open, just disconnect the leads that go to the motherboard and
you're in business.
If you have some aftermarket lock, drill the bugger out with a nice
tough cobalt drill bit.
--Chuck
6:38 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On 9 Oct 2011 at 17:02, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
Looks like I have some work to do, I got the case off,
the microswitch
for the keyboard on/off is split in half (was held together by the
plastic pin and the screw that held it in place.
Fortunately, microswitches are easy to come by, either at your
friendly electronics supplier or stripped out of electronic junk,
such as printers and appliances.
The lock itself is corroded. So much so that one of
the pins is fused
in place :( so it is out of there.
Replacements shouldn't be too difficult to find.
The CMOS battery needs to be replaced, luckily it
hadn't started to
leak and drip from the pack.
And the switches on the XCELX accelerator are broken
and it won't even
try to POST with those broken off. (bodies popped off, and I need to
make sure that none of the metal parts from inside are shorting
anything before applying power
All of which can be replaced economically.
Congratulations on your prize!
--Chuck
9:21 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On 10/9/11 6:38 PM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 9 Oct 2011 at 17:02, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
We have a large selection of lock assemblies I can put in :) one of the
benefits of living with a locksmith in the house :) if I decide to not go
stock and put something like a high security lock into it or something (just
to get the experience of re-pinning one)
One thing I'm annoyed about is that someone pulled the '287 chip :( oh
well, I may actually have one of those floating around... I may even still
have the 10+ MHZ one I salvaged from a dumpstered pc years ago.
I figure I'll need to put $20 in parts into it before I go and fire it up.
It has an AST ram card and another I have yet to ID. A mountain HDD on a
card, and a regular MFM/FDD controller and drive(s) there is a Orchid VEGA
EGA card in it, but I have a 1MB Tseng ET4000 VGA card to go into it :) so
I can use it on my KVM...
Looks like I have some work to do, I got the case
off, the microswitch
for the keyboard on/off is split in half (was held together by the
plastic pin and the screw that held it in place.
Fortunately, microswitches are easy to come by, either at your
friendly electronics supplier or stripped out of electronic junk,
such as printers and appliances.
The lock itself is corroded. So much so that one
of the pins is fused
in place :( so it is out of there.
Replacements shouldn't be too difficult to find.
The CMOS battery needs to be replaced, luckily it
hadn't started to
leak and drip from the pack.
And the switches on the XCELX accelerator are
broken and it won't even
try to POST with those broken off. (bodies popped off, and I need to
make sure that none of the metal parts from inside are shorting
anything before applying power
All of which can be replaced economically.
Congratulations on your prize!
--Chuck
10 Oct
10 Oct
3:08 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On Oct 9, 2011, at 9:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
the accelerator had a 287 in it's adapter socket at some point at least it looks that
way.
One thing I'm annoyed about is that someone
pulled the '287 chip :( oh
They came stock with an empty socket.
1:28 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
Looks like I have some work to do, I got the case off,
the microswitch for
the keyboard on/off is split in half (was held together by the plastic pin
and the screw that held it in place.
Quite often these microswitches are standard parts. I've had great
success finding new replacements for even quite obscure thigns (like the
contact block in a mains swithc used in an HP devivce, or the low-force
microswitch used as a track 0 sensor in the TM100).
The lock itself is corroded. So much so that one of the pins is fused in
place :( so it is out of there.
Haev you dismantled the lock fully? Since you're thinking of repinning
it, can't you not drill out the corroded pin and clean up the hole? Then
get/make a new pin
The CMOS battery needs to be replaced, luckily it hadn't started to leak and
drip from the pack.
I use 4 AA cells in a holder :-). They don't last as long as the
original lithium battery, but they're cheap, and a lot easier to find.
And the switches on the XCELX accelerator are broken and it won't even try
to POST with those broken off. (bodies popped off, and I need to make sure
that none of the metal parts from inside are shorting anything before
applying power
Probably best to remove everything from the case and open up the PSU
just to be sure. The IBM PSUs were generally held together with
'tamperproof Torx' screws, but gettign tools to fit those is not hard.
-tony
5 Oct
5 Oct
6:56 a.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
-sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone
thought they'd be funny,
and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
Open the case and unplug the keylock from the motherboard.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
11:56 a.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
> -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone
thought they'd be funny,
> and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
> Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
Open the case
I interpreted THAT as what
he's having trouble with
and unplug the keylock from the motherboard.
It is R at RE that you see 5170s or PS/2s locked.
12:38 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
I've never seen _any_ AT case with an integrated lock on it. I never
considered such a beast until after I saw follow up replies.
BTW, if anyone has a working 5170 motherboard they want to part with, I'd
be happy to give it a home. I've got a mint case that needs a brain (and
the fancy plastic back cover as well).
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
> -sigh-
need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny,
> and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
> Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
Open the case
I interpreted THAT as what
he's having trouble with
1:56 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
>>> -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and
someone thought they'd be funny,
>>> and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
>>> Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
>> Open the case
> I interpreted THAT as what he's having trouble with
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
I've never seen _any_ AT case with an integrated
lock on it. I never
considered such a beast until after I saw follow up replies.
Geoffrey,
Care to clarify?
10:25 a.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
-sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone
thought they'd be funny,
and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
From your question, I will have to assume that you do
not have the skill
to pick the lock. Ace keys can be fairly easily picked with the
right
tool - it doesn't take much knowledge of the workings of those locks to
design a tube with numerous sliding pins.
http://www.pro-lok.com/pc-288-79-pkx-a1-7-pin-tubular-ace-pick.aspx
http://hawleylocksupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Co…
(Is yours 7 pin?)
http://hawleylocksupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Co…
You could pay a locksmith to pick it for you. They might laugh.
Particularly if they are young enough to not realize that the 5170 had a
REAL lock, V the latch that looks like such a lock on cheap generic ATs.
(In which case, negotiate a flat rate before starting)
BUT, since you can carry it in and set it on the counter, you will be
paying "bench" rates.
Does yours have a 4 to 6 digit number on the face of the lock? If so, a
good locksmith can look that up and "code cut" a key for you.
Are you willing to sacrifice the lock? They are not very hard to drill.
There also exist special tubular drill bits explicitly for the task. NO,
do NOT use the tubular drill bit of your paper drill.
http://www.defensedevices.com/tubular-lock-saw.html
http://hawleylocksupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Co…
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred
6 Oct
6 Oct
6:01 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
Quoting Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>:
On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
i have the skill but not the tool to do it, I had thought about using my regular
lockpicks and make a custom tension wrench... not really -that- much harder than
a 6 pin regular lock.
no numbers on the face of the lock, one of the housemates is a locksmith and
could cut me a key with the code.he is out of town doing some training this week
and I was hoping to get in and take a look inside.... may have to wait anyways,
he might have a tubular pick in his truck.
-sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone
thought they'd be
funny,
and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
From your question, I will have to assume that you do not have the
skill
to pick the lock. Ace keys can be fairly easily picked with the right
tool - it doesn't take much knowledge of t
You could pay a locksmith to pick it for you. They might laugh.
Particularly if they are young enough to not realize that the 5170 had
a
REAL lock, V the latch that looks like such a lock on cheap generic
ATs.
(In which case, negotiate a flat rate before starting)
BUT, since you can carry it in and set it on the counter, you will be
paying "bench" rates.
Does yours have a 4 to 6 digit number on the face of the lock? If so,
a
good locksmith can look that up and "code cut" a key for you.
Are you willing to sacrifice the lock? They are not very hard to
drill.
There also exist special tubular drill bits explicitly for the task.
NO,
7 Oct
7 Oct
12:22 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
i have the skill but not the tool to do it, I had
thought about using my regular
lockpicks and make a custom tension wrench... not really -that- much harder than
a 6 pin regular lock.
no numbers on the face of the lock, one of the housemates is a locksmith and
could cut me a key with the code.he is out of town doing some training this week
and I was hoping to get in and take a look inside.... may have to wait anyways,
he might have a tubular pick in his truck.
I will revise my earlier suggestions and suggest you use 'patience' ;-)
Since you know somebody who either can pick the lock without damage, or
who probably knows another locksith who can do it, I'd wait. No point in
risking permanent damage to the case just to get inside a few days sooner.
Incidentally, as I am sure you know, if you pick an Ace lock with the
tubular lockpick, you end up with the sliders on the pick positioned so
as to pack the pick into the key for the lock. You can then measure hteir
positions to work out how to cut the key.
-tony
5 Oct
5 Oct
1:42 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
-sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny,
and locked the damn thing and took the key :(
Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible.
Assuming this is a real IBM one...
Do not force it. The metal actuator on the back of the loc enganges a
hook-like projstion on the platic case front IIRC. Forcing it will break
soemthinn (most likely the plastic panel that holds the lock and the 2 LEDs.
It's a 7 pin ACE tubular lock, of course. Similar to the DEC frontpanel
lock (you know, the XX2247 key), but with different pinning. I am not
sure if all 5170s were pinned alike or not (something tells me they
weren't).
Anyway, if you know a good locksmith, or have a suitable tubular
lockpick, then pick the lock. It's not that hard. You neve need to lock
it again, of course, once it's unlocked, the case will come on and off
easily and the keyboard will be enabled (another function of the lock is
to aoperate a microswitch connected to the keyboard interface IC).
The easiest way to do it with minimal damage if you can't get the lock
picked is to ask somebody who has one of these cases open (I'll do it if
necessary) to determine the positions of the screws hodling this little
lock/LED panel in place. Then drill neat holes through the plastic front,
remvoe the screwes, fiddle the panel about to free the case and get it
off. Once the case is off, you cna remove the panel completly and then
remove the lock from it.
Then dismantle the lock and reasseble it in the 'open' position. Maybe
re-pin it to suit a key you have (I've alwyas thoguht of repinning the
one on this PC to take a DEC XX2247 key :-)).
It shouldnt be too hard to fill the holes you drilled in the case.
-tony
4:34 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
It's a 7 pin ACE tubular lock, of course. Similar
to the DEC frontpanel
lock (you know, the XX2247 key), but with different pinning.
. . .
(I've alwyas thought of repinning the one on this
PC to take a DEC
XX2247 key :-)).
THAT would be an ideal pinning for it!
Anybody remember/save the actual pinning depths from that discussion?
(XX2247 is a "code number" that indexes into an array of actual
dimensions; XX2247 is NOT the depths of the cuts)
I am not sure if all 5170s were pinned alike or not
(something tells me
they weren't).
NO. I have encountered ones that would not "respond"
to keys from other
ones.
4:44 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
THAT would be an ideal pinning for it!
Anybody remember/save the actual pinning depths from that discussion?
(XX2247 is a "code number" that indexes into an array of actual
dimensions; XX2247 is NOT the depths of the cuts)
See below:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Pete Turnbull
<pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
On 25/04/2011 04:37, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
Here's what I got from two original XX2247 keys...
The cut depths, clockwise from the first position, looking into the open
end with the key at the "twelve 0'clock" position are:
Key 1 Key 1 Key 2 Key 2
0.0770" 1.94mm 0.0785" 1.95mm
0.0150" 0.37mm 0.0155" 0.39mm
0.1055" 2.68mm 0.1070" 2.72mm
0.0435" 1.13mm 0.0455" 1.13mm
0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1085" 2.74mm
0.0780" 1.96mm 0.0785" 1.98mm
0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1095" 2.77mm
.
.
.
I'm not quite sure what this says about
cutting tolerances or what multiple
the depths of cut are.
Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but
according to...
http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_an…
The depths by number are:
1 - 0.0155"
2 - 0.0310"
3 - 0.0465"
4 - 0.0620"
5 - 0.0775"
6 - 0.093"
7 - 0.1085"
8 - 0.1240"
Meaning that the XX2247 key would have depths (in the order you
describe) of 5-1-7-3-7-5-7
A locksmith set up for ACE cutting would have the code book to convert
the serial number into the depth sequence, so the number on the key is
the important datum. Knowing the numeric depths is handy when you are
pinning a lock so you know which bin to pull pins from.
-ethan
4:54 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
[deliberately top-posted to avoid trimming]
Thank you!
We now know the CORRECT re-pinning for all 5170, as well as PS/2 locks.
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Glen Slick wrote:
See below:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
wrote:
>> On 25/04/2011 04:37, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
>> Here's what I got from two original XX2247 keys...
>>
>> The cut depths, clockwise from the first position, looking into the open
>> end with the key at the "twelve 0'clock" position are:
>>
>> Key 1 Key 1 Key 2 Key 2
>>
>> 0.0770" 1.94mm 0.0785" 1.95mm
>> 0.0150" 0.37mm 0.0155" 0.39mm
>> 0.1055" 2.68mm 0.1070" 2.72mm
>> 0.0435" 1.13mm 0.0455" 1.13mm
>> 0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1085" 2.74mm
>> 0.0780" 1.96mm 0.0785" 1.98mm
>> 0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1095" 2.77mm
> .
> .
> .
>> I'm not quite sure what this says about cutting tolerances or what multiple
>> the depths of cut are.
>
> Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but
> according to...
>
> http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_an…
>
> The depths by number are:
>
> 1 - 0.0155"
> 2 - 0.0310"
> 3 - 0.0465"
> 4 - 0.0620"
> 5 - 0.0775"
> 6 - 0.093"
> 7 - 0.1085"
> 8 - 0.1240"
>
> Meaning that the XX2247 key would have depths (in the order you
> describe) of 5-1-7-3-7-5-7
>
> A locksmith set up for ACE cutting would have the code book to convert
> the serial number into the depth sequence, so the number on the key is
> the important datum. Knowing the numeric depths is handy when you are
> pinning a lock so you know which bin to pull pins from.
> -ethan
6 Oct
6 Oct
12:39 p.m.
New subject: More classic computer on topic....
(I've
alwyas thought of repinning the one on this PC to take a DEC
XX2247 key :-)).
THAT would be an ideal pinning for it! Anybody remember/save the actual pinning depths from
that discussion?
(XX2247 is a "code number" that indexes into an array of actual
dimensions; XX2247 is NOT the depths of the cuts)
If you haev an XX2247 key, it's not hard to measure the cuts.
Also, if you're going to make your own pins (i.e. if you don't have
access to the ACE repinning kit, assuming it exists), you would normally
do it by fitting the ky to the rotating part of the lock, then insering a
pin that's too long and cutting/filing it to length. You don't need to
work to dimentions, you work to 'fit'.
-tony
5 Oct
5 Oct
3:18 a.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original
TRS-80 Model I power
brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be
working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
What about using a PC PSU in its place? :)
1:56 p.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the
original TRS-80 Model I power
brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be
working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
What about using a PC PSU in its place? :)
6 Oct
6 Oct
12:26 p.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
Why would anybody replace a device containing 4
simple components
(transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more
components (the PC PSU)???
Maybe because it is very pratical, until I repair the original PSU? :)
2:15 p.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
Secondly, let's think about that power brick. The
transfomer rarely
fails, normally the (soldered in) fuse goes first if there's a short on
the secodnary side (note that a shorted smoothing capacitor or rectifier
on the CPU board will blow this fuse). So the only things you're likely
to have to replace i nthe brick are the fuse and the diodes. Are those
really that hard to find? My junk box is full of 'em...
There are no expensive, hard to find parts in there to protect that fuse!
7 Oct
7 Oct
12:10 p.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
No, it's not an SMPSU... A dead short in one of the smoothing caapcitors
in the TRS-80 may well kill the associated rectifier (either the 4-diode
bridge on the CPU board or the 2 diods in te brick), but the fuse will
almost certainly blow before the transformer fails.
Just don't short out the fuse to get it going again. Next time you have a
fault, the transformer may burn out.
[Incidentally, I had an SMPUS where there were 3 power transistors, half
a doxen small-signal transistors, a controller IC, a couple of power
resistors and a PCB track all protecting the mains fuse. Or at least all
those failed, some transistors blown apart, track melted, etc, before the
fuse failed]
-tony
Secondly, let's think about that power brick.
The transfomer rarely
fails, normally the (soldered in) fuse goes first if there's a short on
the secodnary side (note that a shorted smoothing capacitor or rectifier
on the CPU board will blow this fuse). So the only things you're likely
to have to replace i nthe brick are the fuse and the diodes. Are those
really that hard to find? My junk box is full of 'em...
There are no expensive, hard to find parts in there to protect that fuse!
5 Oct
5 Oct
4:57 p.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple
components
(transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more
components (the PC PSU)???
Although it may offend you in principle, "obsolete" PCs show up in the
gutter around here, but TRS80 parts cost money.
6 Oct
6 Oct
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
Why would
anybody replace a device containing 4 simple components
(transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more
components (the PC PSU)???
Although it may offend you in principle, "obsolete" PCs show up in the
gutter around here, but TRS80 parts cost money. 
9 Oct
9 Oct
11:42 a.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
On 10/6/2011 2:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
You mean there really are classic computer people who don't have boxes of
assorted fuses, diodes, etc? Amazing...
-tony
Please, enough of the self-righteousness that always seems to highlight
your purist tendencies, including the ability to construct transistors
Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple
components
(transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more
components (the PC PSU)???
Although it may offend you in principle, "obsolete" PCs show up in the
gutter around here, but TRS80 parts cost money. from raw materials and simple hand tools. We know
where you stand already.
1:26 p.m.
New subject: Power brick repair
On 10/6/2011 2:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
You mean there really are classic computer people who don't have boxes of
assorted fuses, diodes, etc? Amazing...
-tony
Please, enough of the self-righteousness that always seems to highlight
your purist tendencies, including the ability to construct transistors
from raw materials and simple hand tools. We know where you stand already.
Sorry, my last comment was intended to be sarcastic, it didn't come
across that way I guess.
However, if we go back to the original problem of reparing or replacing
a TRS-80 Model 1 power brick :
The TRS-80 has linear voltag regulators on the CPU board (I have the
schematics here), the inputs on the DIN connector are therefore higher
voltages than the required +5V, -5V and +12V.
You cna't, therefore, conenct some of the wires from a normal PC power
supply (be it a PC, PC/AT, or ATX supply) to a 5 pin DIN plug and use it
to power an unmodified TRS-80 Model 1. You have at least 2 options if you
want to use one. Either modify the PC power supply to give out highet
voltages, and feed those into an unmodified Model 1 (but the PC power
supply is likely to be undocumented...) or modify the model 1 by
bypassing the regulators so that it taks in +/-5V and +12V (but then
having a machine that will be ruined if you conenc tthe original PSU to
it, and hoping that the rails come up in the right order to avoid damage
to the DRAMs).
Both strike me as quite abit of work, and require some electronics
knowledge. The oriignal power brick cotnisn 4 components, one of which
(the transformer) is not likely to have failed. They can all be tested
using simple equipment (multimeter and a series light bulb). It stikes me
that repairing the origianl brick is less work, and requires less
electronic knowledge than using a PC power supply in this case.
You comment would be somewhat more jsutified is I was commenting on
repairing a complex regulated-output PSU .vs. replacing it with a PC
supply. In that case ofteh the PS supply gives the right votlages, it's
just a connector change. I don't like doing it becase, yes, I am a purist
and I regurd the PSU as being part of the original design of the machine.
But I can accept in thsi case that wiring a handful of wires to a
connector is easier than doing battler with an SMPSU that decides to blow
components off the board.
-tony
Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple
components
(transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more
components (the PC PSU)???
Although it may offend you in principle, "obsolete" PCs show up in the
gutter around here, but TRS80 parts cost money.
5 Oct
5 Oct
1:53 p.m.
Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original
TRS-80 Model I power
brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power
bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be
working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way...
From what I rememeber, the power brick contains a
transformer with
effectively 2 centre-tapped outputs [1]. The tap is conencted to
system
logic grounmd. One set of outputsi s fed as AC to the keyboard unit,
where it is rectified and smoothed to provide the +5V ad -5V rails. The
other set of outputs is rectified in the brick by 2 diodes (biphase
rectifier) and fed to the keyboard unit where it is smoothed and
regulated to provide the +12V line.
[1] I do not know if it's one long transformer winding with 5 conenctions
or 2 separate centre-tapped windings with the taps joined. In other words
if it's :
||(--------------
||(
----)||(--------------
)||(
)||(-------------- Centre tap
)||(
----)||(--------------
||(
||(--------------
Or
||(--------------
||(
----)||(----+
)||( |
)||(----)---------
)|| |
----)||(----)---------
||( |
||(----+--------- Centre tape of both secondary windings
||(
||(--------------
I once had to determine how the transformer in an old HP printer was
wound. What I did (with the thing turned off and the primary
disconencted) was to connect the highest-voltage secondary conenctions
(the ends of the largest winding, effecively) to a DC supply, the voltage
of which I turned up until a sensible current (about 1A) was flowing. I
then meausued th eDC voltage between the ends of the other secondary. If
it's like the first diagram, you get a measurable voltage between these
wire, if it's the second diagram you get 0. That's easy to check.
The TRS-80 Model 1 TechRef says that it's 2 sparate windings. The first
is 14V at 1A. This is used for the +5V and -5V suppleis). The other
outputs 19.8V at 350mA after rectification (the 2 diodes in the brick),
so I assume it's a centre-tapped 28V winding, rated at 0.5A or so.
There are no smoothing capacitors or transistors/ICs in the brick.
I asusme the diodes can fail. Whether this then damages the transformer,
or whether you can catch it in time I don't know. The manual mentions a
fuse in series with the mains input to the primary winding, this may well
blow to protect the transformer.
I believe the USA bircks were plastic-cased and many of them were glued
together (but check dfor screws under labels, feet, etc). I have heard
that one way to open them is to hold the cables about 1m for the brick
and swing it onto a hard floor :-). Less violent is to either tap round
the join betwee nthe 2 parts with a mallet or to carefully sqeeze it near
the join in a vice.
European bricks are a bit larger (which means they don't fit in the
Expansion Interface compartment unless you remvoe the tray from it) and
metal cased. They are held together by 4 obvious screws. I think the
trnasofmer is potted ad effectivelg glued in to the case by the potting
compound, but IIRC the wiring and diodes are easy to get to if you open
the case.
-tony
5139
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46 comments
13 participants
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dave.thearchivist＠gmail.com -
derschjo＠mail.msu.edu -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
mbbrutman-cctalk＠brutman.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
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pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au