Jerome Fine replies: Probably both - because the BA23 already has termination, I do not know if the M8012 will function correctly in a BA23 box. And an 8" floppy from DSD is not a speed demon - well no 8" floppy is a speed demon. Actually, unless you are a PDP-11 hardware hobby person, an 11/23 is not a great CPU to have fun with. And with just a floppy and 64 KBytes, I would rather run PDP-11 software under an emulator on a PC. Mind you, I have a number of M8044 boards to trade if you have something. Everyone to their own taste. I am a software junkie, so I do not really appreciate this hardware configuration - rare though it may be. The backplane I am familiar with is a 6 * 9 slot monster. I think that the first 3 slots might be ABCDAB and the other 6 are ABABAB, but I really have no clue at all. Whether it was 18 or 22 bit is also something I forget. Well, the software is much easier on the PDP-11 since there is usually adequate documentation. Also, even when the PDP-11 hardware and software was at its peak around 1982, the next generation of boards and software was still compatible with the old programs and OS. With the PC, everything seems to change every other year. Plus, even with the old PDP-11 hardware, it seems to still last longer than PC hardware. And from an I/O point of view, I hear that the interrupts on the PDP-11 are far better than what the PC hardware does. So the only real advantage in using the PC seems to be the speed and the size of the memory and the available disk space. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine

Hi Dick, Do you mean the PalASM for the DataI/O programmers? I just got it but I haven't tried to use it yet. Jeff Kaneko seems to be pretty knowledgeable on this stuff but I don't know if he's still on this list or not. Joe At 08:53 PM 8/5/00 -0600, you wrote:

On Tue, 08 Aug 2000 17:19:06 -0500 Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> wrote: I also have a Data I/O (Model 29 I think) which has a plug-in module for Palasm. No manuals, though, and I've never tried it out. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England

Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: [snip] Define "cheapie..." This (well, at least for me) is on topic, because I've always wanted to get into PAL/GAL/Programmable Logic to "play" with to make projects on upgrading various classic systems that I have... but a few C-notes is too much for me to dedicate to a "toy" right now. Anyone know of a good source for older programmers that would cost in the $20-50 (USD) range? Thanks, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

What I considered a cheapie back in '85 was something at or under $1k. You can get cheaper ones nowadays, but the problem is that, in my case, portability was a requirement, and most of them, though they'll fit in a briefcase, require a wheelbarrow full of adapters to handle a wide variety of parts. The ones I bought were both about the size of a textbook, though thinner, and supported (or claimed to) most of the devices available on the market at the time, with the exception of a few single-chip micros, for which one would probably want to buy or make a special purpose programmer anyway, since that was no more difficult than making/buying the adapter. I don't know what cheapies there are nowadays, but I doubt you can buy any for less than $500. If you get a $500 device, don't forget that the typical adapter, (murphy says you'll need at least three) will cost about $100 or more. The great hope for the future is "In-situ-programming" now touted as the latest and greatest improvement for larger devices. These allow you to solder your device to the board, avoiding the airflow problems presented by sockets, etc, but their pitch is so fine, generally, that you can't clip on a 'scope or logic analyzer, hence have to build in pins that disrupt that nice airflow. If you just want to play with programmable logic, I'd get a couple of wirewrap adapters for PLCC84 packages to whatever your favorite type of wirewrap card might be, and buy a device or two that comes in that package. Be sitting down when you read the price of the adapters, though. It gives new meainig to the term "sticker shock." Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)30below.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 3:16 PM Subject: "Cheap" PAL/GAL programmers... (was: Palasm?) parts I cheapie get

Please see embedded renarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Honniball <John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 4:34 AM Subject: Re: Palasm? programming It's been a while but the site does, in some cases have an optional socket adapter for differing packages. Unfortunately this type of adapter was needed in some case while other required an etirely different site to accomodate a given package, i.e. you might need several site/adapter combinations to handle all the different packages in which a given part was available. the There was software, in my experience, running on a PC, that told the programmer what to do, specifically how to drive the device pins and how to process the JEDEC file. It also sent the JEDEC file once that was set up, but these were separate steps. At the time I seriously began using field-programmable logic devices (once price came down) there were sufficiently inexpensive programmers from second-rank independent vendors that the model 29 was unrealistic for someone not programming in a prduction environment and whose needs involved a wide range of devices. It's not unusual to see these model 29's at distributors' sites. Perhaps one of your local electronic distributors' technicians can help you out. The way to do that is to contact someone you know and tell them what you want is to find whatever documentation there is on the model 29 and examine/copy it. The guy at the will-call counter will probably be more helpful than the phone-sales person. old parts I cheapie files

It might be worth noting that ABEL and Palasm, though functionally similar, are different languages. Palasm was the most popular and widely used, but that was because it was free from MMI and AMD (after they acquired MMI) The FPGA division of MMI was spun off to produce a new company called XILINX but they took MMI's FPGA software (XACT) with them. ABEL and PALASM are like 'C' and PASCAL, they're different enough, but are still basically programming languages. ABEL and PALASM are both hardware specification languages used for specifying the configuration of field programmable devices. As with all seeming small programmers of the early '80's, the Model 29 had lots of options and accessories that were really difficult to get by without if you had a significant repertoire of programmable devices that you had become accustomed to using. These were very capable devices, but the software maintenance cost and the occasional firmware upgrade would cost on the average about $500 per year. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 9:05 PM Subject: Re: Palasm? don't stuff have to postage socket was translated to up, prduction

PALASM allows the user to generate his own test vectors for testing purposes. I was not aware that the model 29 has a module that generates these automatically. I'd be surprised if it really does it automatically. I'd believe, however, that it compiles test vectors as part of the user's design file. The output from the DOS-based PALASM is a JEDEC file which is a standardized format for fuse maps for various programmable devices. The fact that these devices were so costly is what makes them worth so much less than nothing today. They required several updates per year back when they were in supported service and, now that they're not, it's virtually impossible to get software for them. If you're fortunate enough to have the combination of device, adapter, internal firmware, and externally based software to make them work they work about as well as anything, but because of the divergence in the programmable device market since the model 29 was brought out, it's too difficult to do what they (Data I/O) did because of the way they did it. Their "next" step was to integrate the functions of the model 29 and all its various accessories into a single unit produced the "UniSite" which I only saw once in the hands of a major client and never with a lesser one. The base unit for the Unisite cost $11k and, of course, the name, UNISITE, was a misnomer, since it had a wide range of "sites" that were ultimately needed if you had to support a wide range of devices of types used after 1990. That, of course, serves to show how difficult it is to have a single piece of equipment support all the devices on the market. In the late 1980's there were numerous ECL devices, including some that included TTL<=>ECL device, TTL devices, CMOS devices, all in DIP's LCC's, PGA's. etc. It's a nightmare keeping up with packaging alone, let alone pin-driver requirements for different technologies as well. That's why I favored the lower-cost much more portable devices. I never learned to like the style of adapters people made for the various packages, though, since they were always too fragile to haul around in the briefcase along with the programmer. I built my own, in some cases, and they were even more fragile. <sigh> Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe &lt;rigdonj(a)intellistar.net&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:53 AM Subject: Re: Palasm? Oops! Correction. goof. ABEL However read/program both don't stuff and have to to postage socket was translated to up, vendors prduction Perhaps pretty