14 Dec
1998
14 Dec
'98
12:17 a.m.
Hi,
----------
From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de>
And beside that - if I use a display with some
3 to 4 megapix on a modern PC, drawing isn't realy
faster than on the Star 20 years ago.
"3 to 4 megapix", you're talking about very modern PCs ... ;-))
cheers,
emanuel
14 Dec
14 Dec
2:29 a.m.
> And beside that - if I use a display with some
> 3 to 4 megapix on a modern PC, drawing isn't realy
> faster than on the Star 20 years ago.
"3 to 4 megapix", you're talking about
very modern PCs ... ;-))
I'm talking about things that have been done 20 years
ago on machines with a _microprogramm_ clock of 8 to 12
MHz (and an instruction time of 1 to 2 us). The Viewpoint
Desktop was drawn _very_ smooth and fast. WYSIWYG is not
an Ventura, Apple or what MS invention and 'in place
editing' isn't the new killer app ... (especialy because
the EMS 5800 didn't show some flickering borders like
Powerpoint does on my 400 MHz PII ).
The funny (or better sad) thing is that I, when I started at
the Siemens department where they had the EMS 5800, belived
that this was state of the art for office systems, and my
poor small Apple ][ was just a home system ... Now I know I
was just pure phantasie - a never happend story from an erased
timeline ...
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
3:08 a.m.
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:
The funny (or better sad) thing is that I, when I
started at
the Siemens department where they had the EMS 5800, belived
that this was state of the art for office systems, and my
poor small Apple ][ was just a home system ... Now I know I
was just pure phantasie - a never happend story from an erased
timeline ...
It WAS state of the art, and by the way, it still is. I agree with you
that the Mac and Win95 still have not caught up to the Star's desktop.
I have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 12/07/98]
5:48 a.m.
> The funny (or better sad) thing is that I, when I
started at
> the Siemens department where they had the EMS 5800, belived
> that this was state of the art for office systems, and my
> poor small Apple ][ was just a home system ... Now I know I
> was just pure phantasie - a never happend story from an erased
> timeline ...
It WAS state of the art, and by the way, it still is.
I agree with you
that the Mac and Win95 still have not caught up to the Star's desktop.
I have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.
You have ? You didn't show me - realy a EMS 5800 ?
With Siemens label ? DId they realy reimport them
to the USA ? What a joke :)
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
5:23 a.m.
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:
I got it only a few weeks ago. And yes, it is the Siemens labeled 5800 in
the light grey case. I got it from one of the engineers at Xerox PARC who
worked on the Star/Daybreak team. Did Siemens have an exclusive market in
Europe to market these machines, which are otherwise known as the 6085 (or
Daybreak?) in the U.S. and other countries around the world.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 12/07/98]
I have an EMS
5800 in my collection, Hans.
You have ? You didn't show me - realy a EMS 5800 ?
With Siemens label ? DId they realy reimport them
to the USA ? What a joke :)
6:39 a.m.
> > I have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.
> You have ? You didn't show me - realy a EMS 5800 ?
> With Siemens label ? DId they realy reimport them
> to the USA ? What a joke :)
I got it only a few weeks ago. And yes, it is the
Siemens labeled 5800 in
the light grey case.
Witch model is it exactly ? Do you also have the laser printer unit ?
EMS 5800 is the family name (and also the only name on the first
series - the later models had also distigtive numbers on the front.
I got it from one of the engineers at Xerox PARC who
worked on the Star/Daybreak team.
Wow - great - try to get documentation, info, whatever - I would
be especialy interested in material (and stories) from 'the
other side' - I know some stories and have some material from
Siemens people.
Did Siemens have an exclusive market in
Europe to market these machines, which are otherwise known as the 6085 (or
Daybreak?) in the U.S. and other countries around the world.
I don't know, but I guess in Germany at least - beside two original
labeled units in a R&D department at Hoffmanstrasse, I never have
seen any Xerox units in Germany.
I realy love Viewpoint. I don't think anybody needs more PC
at work than this system (no mater on which hardware). As I
said earlyer around 1980 these machines (hard- and software)
have been my impression of state of the art office (desktop)
systems and I still can't belive the outcome.
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
6:48 a.m.
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:
This one is labeled "Siemens 5800" on the front so I'll have to take a
closer look when I get home to find any distinguishing model numbers. I
didn't get the laser printer with it.
Unfortunately, he didn't have any manuals for it. Equally unfortunate,
the Daybreak is a sore topic for him, probably because of what it could
have been had Xerox marketed it properly. It seems all the Xerox
engineers I have met who worked on this want to put it behind them. So
when I asked if I could call him for help he said he'd rather not have to
ever deal with them again :( I'm sure if I conbtacted him in a year or so
he might be getting just nostalgic enough to give me some pointers if I
need them.
If you check the VCF links page I have a Xerox section that has some
stories on the Star. Also check The Elixir Project link in the Computer
History Resources section:
http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vcflinks.htm
> > I
have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.
> You have ? You didn't show me - realy a EMS 5800 ?
> With Siemens label ? DId they realy reimport them
> to the USA ? What a joke :)
I got it only a few weeks ago. And yes, it is
the Siemens labeled 5800 in
the light grey case.
Witch model is it exactly ? Do you also have the laser printer unit ?
EMS 5800 is the family name (and also the only name on the first
series - the later models had also distigtive numbers on the front. I got it from
one of the engineers at Xerox PARC who
worked on the Star/Daybreak team.
Wow - great - try to get documentation, info, whatever - I would
be especialy interested in material (and stories) from 'the
other side' - I know some stories and have some material from
Siemens people. I realy love Viewpoint. I don't think anybody
needs more PC
at work than this system (no mater on which hardware). As I
said earlyer around 1980 these machines (hard- and software)
have been my impression of state of the art office (desktop)
systems and I still can't belive the outcome.
The bay area gang just recently got another batch of these that have
ViewPoint 2.0 installed. I've got the install disks and a complete manual
set, plus tons of fonts.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 12/07/98]
6:15 a.m.
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9:01 a.m.
> I'm talking about things that have been done
20 years
> ago on machines with a _microprogramm_ clock of 8 to 12
> MHz (and an instruction time of 1 to 2 us). The Viewpoint
> Desktop was drawn _very_ smooth and fast. WYSIWYG is not
Remember that the PERQ (and I would assume the Xerox
machines, although I
know a lot less about them) had a graphics blitter from the beginning. In
fact one of the design specs for the PERQ 1 was that it must be as fast
at displaying text (even though it was a bitmapped display) as a normal
terminal on a 9600 baud line (which is what most people were used to).
In fact the PERQ 1 considerablly exceeded that spec.
Just doing graphics,
it could manage 10 full-screen bit-blits per second (!). Something that
few PCs could manage (or even can manage?)
Today its possible - Memory to Memory transfer using
PCI is above 40 MB/s and thats well for a 4 MegPix
display.
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
10:16 a.m.
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11:29 p.m.
> > In fact the PERQ 1 considerablly exceeded
that spec. Just doing graphics,
> > it could manage 10 full-screen bit-blits per second (!). Something that
> > few PCs could manage (or even can manage?)
> Today its possible - Memory to Memory transfer using
> PCI is above 40 MB/s and thats well for a 4 MegPix
> display.
Remember a bit-blit involves a little processing
(ANDing or ORing 2
bitmaps, maybe having to align them with a shifter).
Jep, the hurdle is the memory transfer - just remember,
The CPUs are already running at a multiple of the bus
clock ...
OK, A PC _now_ can do it. A PC 19 years ago (when the
PERQ came out), or
even one 10 years ago would have had problems...
Exactly my point - you're running open doors.
Mind you, the Whitechapel MG1 has a graphics processor
that's bit-serial
(makes a sort of twisted sense to handle bitmaps this way), and it was
actually slower than using the 32016 processor to do the operation...
Could it work paralell with the CPU ? If yes, using it
was still smarter - only if you don't have to look for
speed anything is better done with one CPU (I still can't
get the idea that all junk has to be done via the main CPU).
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
15 Dec
15 Dec
9:08 a.m.
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