8 Mar
2002
8 Mar
'02
2:36 p.m.
Does regular paper tape normally come with the sprocket holes pre-punched,
or does the device that punches the data holes also punch the sprocket
holes? I recently bought some "paper tape" from eBay, and it looks like
the right stuff except it's totally without holes. I don't think I've
ever seen "virgin" tape before, but I had the idea that the sprocket holes
down the middle came with the tape. I'm kicking around trying to build my
own tape punch, since I have been unsuccessful at scrounging or buying one
so far. I picked up some stainless steel flat and some rod of the
appropriate diameter for the holes today, along with some solenoids for
actuating said rods. I'm thinking of machining the stainless to make my
own punch, but the lack of sprocket holes on the new tape has me confused.
Do I need to add another solenoid and pin to punch a smaller hole for the
sprocket, or did I just buy some odd-ball tape?
8 Mar
8 Mar
2:59 p.m.
Does regular paper tape normally come with the
sprocket holes pre-punched,
or does the device that punches the data holes also punch the sprocket
holes?
The paper tape punch also punches the sprocket holes.
I recently bought some "paper tape" from
eBay, and it looks like
the right stuff except it's totally without holes. I don't think I've
ever seen "virgin" tape before, but I had the idea that the sprocket holes
down the middle came with the tape. I'm kicking around trying to build my
own tape punch, since I have been unsuccessful at scrounging or buying one
so far.
You have been unsuccessful for a very simple reason. Western Numerical
Controls sells new and refurbished tape readers and punches at absurdly
high prices. And because of this, they buy all the good punches that
appear on ebay. In fact, the guy who buys them, is the exact same guy
who sold you that paper tape.
Its very difficult to compete with a bidder who plans to turn around and
resell (or attempt to resell) the paper tape punches for $2000.00 or
so that he buys for $200 - $600 on ebay.
I picked up some stainless steel flat and some rod of
the
appropriate diameter for the holes today, along with some solenoids for
actuating said rods. I'm thinking of machining the stainless to make my
own punch, but the lack of sprocket holes on the new tape has me confused.
Do I need to add another solenoid and pin to punch a smaller hole for the
sprocket, or did I just buy some odd-ball tape?
Are you making some sort of manual paper tape punch?
-Lawrence LeMay
6:26 p.m.
On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:59:36 -0600 (CST), you wrote:
Ouch. That would certainly explain it. I kept getting outbid by the
same person, but I didn't put 2 and 2 together. I guess it's the free
market economy at work, but it makes it tough if you can't justify
paying a high price from something since it's just to play with.
<sigh>
Well, actually I was considering running it with a BASIC Stamp 2; then
it could take either RS-232 serial input from a PC, or parallel TTL
input from my Mark-8. I really have no idea how much force it will
take to punch clean holes in the tape. I plan to machine the metal
parts for my design and harden them, and then see how hard a solenoid
has to whack the pins to get a clean cut. I picked up a box full of
solenoids tonight at the Surplus Center, and I'm hoping they'll be
strong enough. If so, I'll just need to put together some drivers so
the BS-2 can energize them, and a stepper motor or something to pull
the tape through. (If anyone can supply any details about how a
commercial tape punch works, I'd be very interested to know. No sense
reinventing the wheel...)
-Bill Richman (bill_r(a)inetnebr.com)
Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with
Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.
Does regular
paper tape normally come with the sprocket holes pre-punched,
or does the device that punches the data holes also punch the sprocket
holes?
The paper tape punch also punches the sprocket holes.
I recently bought some "paper tape"
from eBay, and it looks like
the right stuff except it's totally without holes. I don't think I've
ever seen "virgin" tape before, but I had the idea that the sprocket holes
down the middle came with the tape. I'm kicking around trying to build my
own tape punch, since I have been unsuccessful at scrounging or buying one
so far.
You have been unsuccessful for a very simple reason. Western Numerical
Controls sells new and refurbished tape readers and punches at absurdly
high prices. And because of this, they buy all the good punches that
appear on ebay. In fact, the guy who buys them, is the exact same guy
who sold you that paper tape.
Its very difficult to compete with a bidder who plans to turn around and
resell (or attempt to resell) the paper tape punches for $2000.00 or
so that he buys for $200 - $600 on ebay.
I picked up
some stainless steel flat and some rod of the
appropriate diameter for the holes today, along with some solenoids for
actuating said rods. I'm thinking of machining the stainless to make my
own punch, but the lack of sprocket holes on the new tape has me confused.
Do I need to add another solenoid and pin to punch a smaller hole for the
sprocket, or did I just buy some odd-ball tape?
Are you making some sort of manual paper tape punch?
7:07 p.m.
Actually, this statement below isn't entirely true. I
bought two DSI punches (one with a reader) on eBay for
$40.00 shipped for the punch in not very good
condition and about $100 for the punch/reader in
better condition. (see
sloboyko.home.mindspring.com/ptfun.htm). I think you
can get a bargain if you hold out for a less than
perfect one or find one that Western Numeric might not
find attractive (like a Remex). The practically unused
GE Decitek reader on my web page I found on eBay (in a
beautiful flight case, and this unit alone is still
sold NEW for >1700.00), I got for $20 probably because
the seller misclassified it not knowing what it was.
No docs and 24 DIP switches but I have it working well
enough. The manual is still available - for more than
3 times what I paid for the unit!
The data I/O reader on that page (~$50) took some
goofing around with to power, and figuring out mystery
serial speed/bits/parity, but it was very well worth
it! It's unusual in that it can read 5-8 level tape by
rotating a guide in the read head.
I also have dealt with Western Numeric and their
prices are high on parts and stuff, because they can
be. I needed belts for the unit I got in bad
condition. After some looking around on the Internet I
found super Kevlar belts for about 20% of what he
wanted for 'em. But, I'm a hobbyist, and if you needed
it for business, you can't guess or waste time. There
service is very good.
If you can do this kind of serious machining, great;
personally, I'd hold out for an "unknown" mechanism
with an "unknown" interface or a broken one on eBay. I
think coming up with the mech is 90% of the work, and
keep in mind, it's got to be pretty rugged (I think
the DSI is constructed mostly of tool steel). It's
mechanism is stepper controlled, but I had to goof
around with the belt tension quite a bit (cogged type
belts) to get the rows of holes spaced just right and
evenly feeding. The mech is powered by an AC
syncronous motor that doubles as a fan. Apparently, a
clutch helps to move the paper while the stepper does
the fine movement. It's got solenoids and levers that
actually do the punch pin movement. It is powered by a
big 24/5 volt linear power supply.
The DSI mechanism looks pretty rugged; the punch I
have in better condition has sharper dies than the
other, I think (count the number of holes, and then
consider that these punches can do mylar, and, well,
you can see why the dies need resharpening). I haven't
taken mine apart yet, and Western wants $50 just for
the manual. This is why you might think I'm a pig to
have TWO punches, but I'm afraid of how much one would
cost to fix if it broke because it's doubtful that I
could repair it simply because of lack of unique parts
no longer made. The DSI's have some kind of wacky
Intersil processor running them, and good luck finding
anything on the Internet about DSI.
--- Bill Richman <bill_r(a)inetnebr.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:59:36 -0600 (CST), you wrote:
holes.
reason. Western Numerical
punch?
Well, actually I was considering running
it with a
BASIC Stamp 2; then
it could take either RS-232 serial input from a PC,
or parallel TTL
input from my Mark-8. I really have no idea how
much force it will
take to punch clean holes in the tape. I plan to
machine the metal
parts for my design and harden them, and then see
how hard a solenoid
has to whack the pins to get a clean cut. I picked
up a box full of
solenoids tonight at the Surplus Center, and I'm
hoping they'll be
strong enough. If so, I'll just need to put
together some drivers so
the BS-2 can energize them, and a stepper motor or
something to pull
the tape through. (If anyone can supply any details
about how a
commercial tape punch works, I'd be very interested
to know. No sense
reinventing the wheel...)
-Bill Richman (bill_r(a)inetnebr.com)
Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer
Simulator, Fun with
Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and
Technological Oddities.
__________________________________________________
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Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
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> Does regular paper tape normally come with
the
sprocket holes pre-punched,
> or does the device that punches the data
holes
also punch the sprocket
holes?
The paper tape punch also punches the sprocket
> I recently bought some "paper tape" from eBay,
and it looks like
> the right stuff except it's totally
without
holes. I don't think I've
> ever seen "virgin" tape before, but
I had the
idea that the sprocket holes
> down the middle came with the tape. I'm
kicking
around trying to build my
> own tape punch, since I have been
unsuccessful at
scrounging or buying one
so far.
You have been unsuccessful for a very simple Controls sells new and refurbished tape readers
and
punches at absurdly
high prices. And because of this, they buy all the
good punches that
appear on ebay. In fact, the guy who buys them, is
the exact same guy
who sold you that paper tape.
Its very difficult to compete with a bidder who
plans to turn around and
resell (or attempt to resell) the paper tape
punches for $2000.00 or
so that he buys for $200 - $600 on ebay.
Ouch. That would certainly explain it. I kept
getting outbid by the
same person, but I didn't put 2 and 2 together. I
guess it's the free
market economy at work, but it makes it tough if you
can't justify
paying a high price from something since it's just
to play with.
<sigh>
> I picked up some stainless steel flat and
some
rod of the
> appropriate diameter for the holes today,
along
with some solenoids for
> actuating said rods. I'm thinking of
machining
the stainless to make my
> own punch, but the lack of sprocket holes on
the
new tape has me confused.
> Do I need to add another solenoid and pin to
punch a smaller hole for the
sprocket,
or did I just buy some odd-ball tape?
Are you making some sort of manual paper tape 
4:27 p.m.
All of the Teletype and computer tape that I've seen was prepunched. I've
never seen a Teletype or computer type machine that could punch the
sprocket holes. I think I've seen unpunched tape but I don't remember what
it was for.
Joe
At 07:36 PM 3/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
Does regular paper tape normally come with the sprocket
holes pre-punched,
or does the device that punches the data holes also punch the sprocket
holes? I recently bought some "paper tape" from eBay, and it looks like
the right stuff except it's totally without holes. I don't think I've
ever seen "virgin" tape before, but I had the idea that the sprocket holes
down the middle came with the tape. I'm kicking around trying to build my
own tape punch, since I have been unsuccessful at scrounging or buying one
so far. I picked up some stainless steel flat and some rod of the
appropriate diameter for the holes today, along with some solenoids for
actuating said rods. I'm thinking of machining the stainless to make my
own punch, but the lack of sprocket holes on the new tape has me confused.
Do I need to add another solenoid and pin to punch a smaller hole for the
sprocket, or did I just buy some odd-ball tape?
6:46 p.m.
My ASR-33 Teletype punches the feed hole along with the code holes. It
uses friction-feed rollers to pull the blank tape off the roll and feed
it into the punch (which has 9 pins in line, 8 for the data and a smaller
one for the sprocket hole).
Frank
--On Friday, March 08, 2002 22:27:20 -0500 Joe <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote:
All of the Teletype and computer tape that I've
seen was prepunched. I've
never seen a Teletype or computer type machine that could punch the
sprocket holes. I think I've seen unpunched tape but I don't remember what
it was for.
Joe
At 07:36 PM 3/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
> Does regular paper tape normally come with the sprocket holes pre-punched,
> or does the device that punches the data holes also punch the sprocket
> holes? I recently bought some "paper tape" from eBay, and it looks like
> the right stuff except it's totally without holes. I don't think I've
> ever seen "virgin" tape before, but I had the idea that the sprocket holes
> down the middle came with the tape. I'm kicking around trying to build my
> own tape punch, since I have been unsuccessful at scrounging or buying one
> so far. I picked up some stainless steel flat and some rod of the
> appropriate diameter for the holes today, along with some solenoids for
> actuating said rods. I'm thinking of machining the stainless to make my
> own punch, but the lack of sprocket holes on the new tape has me confused.
> Do I need to add another solenoid and pin to punch a smaller hole for the
> sprocket, or did I just buy some odd-ball tape?
>
>
--
Frank Smith fsmith(a)hoovers.com
Systems Administrator Voice: 512-374-4673
Hoover's Online Fax: 512-374-4501
7:09 p.m.
New subject: Blank Paper Tape Question (P.S.)
The DSI punches punch their own sprocket holes. Funny,
I don't remember prepunched tape. Wouldn't that be
punched tape prepunched with NULL's (ha ha).
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9 Mar
9 Mar
5:42 a.m.
New subject: Blank Paper Tape Question (P.S.)
Loboyko Steve wrote:
The DSI punches punch their own sprocket holes. Funny,
I don't remember prepunched tape. Wouldn't that be
punched tape prepunched with NULL's (ha ha).
It is a know fact that Santa's Elves will pre-punch your
paper tape for you on their days off. You have a choice
of white,red,or green paper tape.
A low speed punch 10 cps vers a high speed punch
50 cps could be a important cost factor. Now if you
had black paper tape one could zap out the holes
with a laser giving you a very high speed punch.
Since the punching speed does limit paper
tape to a practical limit of about 8kb was there
any really large paper tape programs? 4K focal on
a TTY was as long a program that I ever loaded from paper
tape ... 20 minutes.
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
6:18 a.m.
New subject: Blank Paper Tape Question (P.S.)
A low speed punch 10 cps vers a high speed punch
50 cps could be a important cost factor. Now if you
had black paper tape one could zap out the holes
with a laser giving you a very high speed punch.
Since the punching speed does limit paper
tape to a practical limit of about 8kb was there
any really large paper tape programs? 4K focal on
a TTY was as long a program that I ever loaded from paper
tape ... 20 minutes.
Well, a good optical reader can read 400 characters per second. Correct me
if i'm wrong, but that seems like 4096 bytes takes 10.24 seconds to read
in. Assuming its not a 30 year old tape that vaporizes at that speed ;)
-Lawrence LeMay
6:59 a.m.
New subject: Blank Paper Tape Question (P.S.)
Lawrence LeMay wrote:
The TTY is the LOW speed punch/reader ... 10 CPS.
The high speed reader is 300 CPS for the PDP-8.
The problem with paper tape
on the PDP-8 at least is that you had to read a character at a
time. Read char... process ... read. This meant the paper tape
had to stop the tape on every character. Reading the tape is
not the problem ... stopping was.
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
A low speed punch 10 cps vers a high speed punch
50 cps could be a important cost factor. Now if you
had black paper tape one could zap out the holes
with a laser giving you a very high speed punch.
Since the punching speed does limit paper
tape to a practical limit of about 8kb was there
any really large paper tape programs? 4K focal on
a TTY was as long a program that I ever loaded from paper
tape ... 20 minutes.
Well, a good optical reader can read 400 characters per second. Correct me
if i'm wrong, but that seems like 4096 bytes takes 10.24 seconds to read
in. Assuming its not a 30 year old tape that vaporizes at that speed ;)
-Lawrence LeMay 
9:42 a.m.
New subject: Blank Paper Tape Question (P.S.)
Well, a good optical reader can read 400 characters per second. Correct me
if i'm wrong, but that seems like 4096 bytes takes 10.24 seconds to read
in. Assuming its not a 30 year old tape that vaporizes at that speed ;)
A _really_ fast paper tape reader was capable of 2000 cps ... but needed
special spooling arangements to feed the tape fast enough.
Very imptessive to watch when it was working properly ... and even more
impressive when it failed :-(
Andy
10:07 a.m.
New subject: Blank Paper Tape Question (P.S.)
Hi,
"Andy Holt" <andyh(a)andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk> said:
I remember reading that the FISH Bombes, which ran at up to 2,000
cps frequently broke their tapes and spewed tape everywhere ;-)
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Well, a good optical reader can read 400 characters per second. Correct me
if i'm wrong, but that seems like 4096 bytes takes 10.24 seconds to read
in. Assuming its not a 30 year old tape that vaporizes at that speed ;)
A _really_ fast paper tape reader was capable of 2000 cps ... but needed
special spooling arangements to feed the tape fast enough.
Very imptessive to watch when it was working properly ... and even more
impressive when it failed :-( 
10 Mar
10 Mar
12:38 a.m.
New subject: Breaking into my Newton
Well during the weekend cleanup (naturally looking for something else which
I still can't find) I dug up my Newton Messagepad. After a quick dust and
plugging it into the wall (I doubt that the rechargables will be in any
condition after many years of non-use) it starts up.
Of course, the problem is that it's password protected and stuffed if I
know what it was. Any ideas on how to break in (I suspect after so many
years I don't really care about the data although it'd be fun to find out
what I saved there).
This is an Original Messagepad running OS 1.3.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
11:01 p.m.
New subject: Blank Paper Tape Question (P.S.)
On Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 09:07:54PM +0000, Stan Barr wrote:
I remember reading that the FISH Bombes, which ran at
up to 2,000
cps frequently broke their tapes and spewed tape everywhere ;-)
5,000 cps I think. According to the people currently at Bletchley Park,
they originally picked a good speed (perhaps at random or perhaps by trying
faster and faster speeds). The tape snapped, and as you said it was very
impressive because of the huge pulley arrangement. So they divided the
top speed in half.
-- Derek
9 Mar
9 Mar
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Blank Paper Tape Question (P.S.)
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8170
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16 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
andyh＠andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bill_r＠inebraska.com -
bill_r＠inetnebr.com -
dpeschel＠eskimo.com -
frank＠artair.com -
Huw.Davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
sloboyko＠yahoo.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com