On 15/07/2015 21:55, P Gebhardt wrote: Plus $47.00 USPS Priority Mail International, and "International items may be subject to customs processing and additional charges."!!! And at the current bid+shipping, yes it would be, in the UK. Last time I had a spare cut locally, it cost something like UKP5.00 for two. Add a little more for stamping it with the number etc, I suppose. -- Pete Pete Turnbull

Were these keys one size fits all? Or were they custom ala the IBM 5170 keys?

Well at least he will get something for his $100... I always feel bad when I see people bidding on IBM 5170 keys... Those matched the lock they came with. I am sure IBM must have had only 10 or 20 models but I have never randomly been able to lock one of my machines with a random key...

Wow! should I dig out my Herty-Gerty? On Thu, 16 Jul 2015, Pete Turnbull wrote: We had a similar discussion four years ago. To oversimplify slightly, XX2247 is a very ordinary "ACE" lock/key from Chicago Lock Company. "XX2247" is not the depths of the cuts of the key. Instead, it is an "index" into the code. If you have access to the right "code book", you look that up and it gives you a sequence of key cut depths, expressed as numbers. If you DON'T have the right code-book, then you can measure the depths of the cuts. Thus, if you look up "XX2247", you get: 5 1 7 3 7 5 7 If you have ACE compatible key cutter, then you set those numbers for the cuts. If you don't have a suitable cutter, then you can look up what the physical measurement is for each of those numeric cut names (provided below) and then use a small end-mill in a drill press. Four years ago, Ethan Dicks, who is quite familiar with the XX2247 key looked up the appropriate numbers in response to some speculation: open multiple On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_an…

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Murphy" <rick at rickmurphy.net> To: "Pete Turnbull" <pete at dunnington.plus.com>; <General at classiccmp.org>; <"Discussion at classiccmp.org:"@classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 10:32 PM Subject: Re: Time to dig out some of my DEC XX2247 keys ----- Reply ----- FWIW, before they went to the funky flat keys with dimples on the side Cromemco also used tubular ACE keys; AFAIK they were all the same, number XX4306. m

Chuck, Maybe on the DEC keys but trying to make a key for an IBM lock proved impossible (i.e. make a key from the lock - not copy a key). Most lock smith I talked to said they did not do that kind of work.

Heck, I could crank out at least 40 of them tonight with tools and supplies already on hand (an XX2247 to copy, a tubular key copying machine, a box of blanks, and a metal stamp set). But I closed my eBay account, so I guess I'll just need to pass on that extra $4000 of income. :D -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net> http://www.nf6x.net/

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: With rosewood handles... -ethan

Todd Goodman wrote: Specifically, well whale oil... Regards, Peter Coghlan.

If you want a real key challenge, try those used by mid-90s IBM AS/400s. They were electronic; a lozenge-shaped slab of plastic with a bunch of contacts concealed in one end, and a chip of some kind inside (I never dared hack one apart!) IIRC, from the time I tried to obtain a spare, they weren't made by IBM; the system was subcontracted out to a Native American owned company on a reservation somewhere. (The key in question was used to lock and unlock the front panel, select IPL modes etc) Mike On Jul 16, 2015 2:49 PM, "ben" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:

For a cylinder (Yale type) key, it is trivial to cut a copy if you can get the blank. The blank has the side grooves already cut, you have to cut the 'jagged row of notches' in the top to make it the right key. At least one person here has a keycutting machine to do that. The problem comes if the blank is 'restricted'. Sometimes locks were made with unobtainable blanks to prevent keys being copied. Often the side grooves are a mirror image of a standard blank. For example the keys to my bedsit and the keys to the place where I worked were like that. The former blank could be obtained, the latter could only be obtained (and reputable locksmiths would enforce this) if you had the right paperwork from the owner of the local (== company where I worked in this case). Makes a lot of sense. Of course with a milling cutter you can make just about anything. But as with all locks the idea is to make it more attractive for the criminal to go somewhere else :-) I would be surprised if the blank for the 11/05/GT40 key was restricted. After all you can bypass that secutrity with a screwdriver and a bit of wire. But it may well be that it is a non-standard blank that most locksmiths don't carry (at least in the UK), and that they would rather not take on the work. I have met countless examples of that from all trades in my life The same might be true of the ACE key. It takes a special keycutting machine to cut those, and most of the high-street key cutting places over here don't have it. The next issue is making a key if you don't have one but do have the lock. This is considerably harder than copying a key, and again the keycutting (only) companies can't do it and locksmiths may not want the work (or may think you won't pay a fair price for it). Often if you have the bare lock mechanism they will make a key if you are prepared to pay, on the grounds that you have got past it anyway, so having the key is no risk to security. But you have to talk to them. In the case (!) of the IBM5170 lock, you can remove it by opening the case (Hard if locked, but a screwdriver in the right place will get it free), then taking off the LED panel, removing the label I think this is shown in the HMS manual. Now, the lock will come apart. On the side is a metal pin. Either drill it out, or drill and tap a centre hole and use a screw to pull it out. The latter is preferable in that the pin can then go back. The internals of the lock all slide out, scattering pins and springs everywhere. IIRC there are 8 springs and bottom pins (all the same) which go in the housing and 7 upper pins which go in the rotating disk. By changing the latter you can make the lock take any key. I have often thought I should re-pin my 5170 to take the XX2247 key (it will fit apart from the pinning). Kits of pins are available, but not easily, and locksmiths don't like selling 7 pins (or any other spare parts). Whether they think you are taking work from them, or whether they have the incorrect idea that anybody who fiddles with locks is up to no good I do not know. But.... I am going to have this problem soon I think. It appears the key to my P854 was one of the (far too many) things to go walkabout during the move. I want to keep that machine original, so I am going to have to dismantle the lockswitch (Yale type key) and cut a replacement... Oh well... -tony

Ethan, What I tried to do was take the lock in and have them make a key. Not just copy a key... As an aside since the Chicago Co. also made the keys/locks for the IBM 5170 is there a catalog/code conversion book that describes how to make locks for a given 5170 key?

On 7/15/2015 8:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: Stamp sets are 10 or 20 bucks @ harbor freight. But that isn't the problem. I found a grumpy old locksmith (not Fred) who told me the state of the problem at least for the state of California. Locksmiths by and large are licensed to open doors if they have the appropriate authority to do so, etc. For the keys, lock and key sets for this sort of key are restricted by the manufacturer to be only made for the lock by the manufacturer. They don't have the key blanks. They can key a new lock, but not to that specific setup by their licenses. That was why I was shown the door. No blanks exist to do it yourself. I don't personally see a huge problem with proper skills at precision machining and tools, but I don't have them. I do have friends who can probably have done it by hand, and with the tools available now, might be able to do it better now that tooling that exists in maker shops is out there. Again, I don't know of such a shop here in my area, wish i did. I'd take a key in and have someone help me make some. If you found someone making the keys, then that is at variance with what is going on in general, as I called several locksmiths and all of them sing the same tune w/o prompting. The ACE way or the highway. BTW, a previous key I saw a couple of months ago went for twice this. thanks jim

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015, jwsmobile wrote: http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/stamping/36-piece-18-in-steel-lette… How hard is it to set up a CNC mill to engrave letters and numbers? BUT, being DEC, what FONT should be used? 1) Some municipalities limit code-cutting and making a key for a keyless lock. The premise is that somebody who comes in the door with a piece of paper that says "XX2247" might not be an authorized holder of that key. One town here requires bringing in the lock. Another wants the lock, ID, and a request "ON LETTERHEAD". How hard is it to create staionery? Reputable locksmiths will refuse to duplicate a key that is stamped "DO NOT DUPLICATE" without through proof that you are the rightful owner; hardware stores require that there be a piece of masking tape over that stamping. Some areas are more uptight than others. 2) Some manufacturers do not want third party code cutting, and do not release code books. In fact SOME third party code books are even compiled by data collected from locksmith users who measure the cuts ("decode") whichever keys they come across. Some, such as Medeco? and Abloy? would prefer to have the customer provide their serial number to the manufacturer to order a key. Toyota does that on their "LASER!" keys (which do NOT require a laser to cut, and my originals show machining marks, not laser burns) 3) not all locks/keys are stamped with their codes. Sometimes the code is algorithmically generated, such as being the sequence of cuts IN REVERSE ORDER (why not upgrade to ROT-13?) On cars, for example, the code for all of the locks in the car may only be stamped on one lock (inside passenger door?), on a little piece of paper in the glovebox (Nissan Z), etc. 4) Some key blanks are very limited in their distribution by the manufacturer. BEST did not want other manufacturers making keys with the same milling as theirs (both anti-competition, AND security of the lock), so they tried to PATENT their millings. Didn't work, but did seriously limit the availability of blanks for their "PKS" keyways. ACE (tubular) key blanks are NOT at all hard to come by. I would have doubts about any locksmith who can't cut ACE keys! The local Home Depot has cleared out the selection of key blanks, and filled the entire board with an amazing variety of novelty bows and colors, but only Schlage "C" keyway and Kwikset "KW1". They do not have Ace keys blanks. Yes, it is not a major feat to make a key blank, but few will do so. It takes a little bit of competence with a milling machine (or a lathe for tubular keys) BTW, for "mirror image" keyways, are longer blanks available? (6 pin in a 5 pin keyway, etc.) Cut off the bow, and turn it around, . . . 5) A key cutting machine is a triangle file, spinning grinding wheel, or anvil clipper. For an Ace key, it is a drill press with end-mill. For automotive "LASER!" cut keys, it is side-mill. When I bought my new car, instead of hundreds of dollars and "special order" waits at the dealer, I bought a handful of blanks on eBay. The local competent locksmith had a "sidewinder" machine but no blanks. He was quite happy to cut a few keys in exchange for a few extra blanks, and my over hundred dollar three to six week special order keys ended up costing me a couple of dollars each. For automotive use, prior to the current fancy ass keys, the basic tool was the Curtis Clipper, which with various carriages and cams could cut almost any. I don't know why they never released housekey cams and carriages for it. At one time, there was a commercial code cutting key machine that was a converted Unimat! For Ace keys, the most common cutter looks like a sewing machine motor horizontal drill press, but there is also the Herty-Gerty which is a handheld that looks like a windup music box, and the Pocket-Cut-Up, which looks like a miniature Curta Calculator It is not uncommon for cutting Ace keys to decode the original, and then cut the duplicate by code. 6) Duplicating a key is obviously trivial, although with a sufficient lack of skill, it is easy to produce ones that aren't accurate enough to work. Cutting a key from code requires the code (stamped on the lock, on a broken key, on a key held by somebody elsewhere with a phone), a code book, a code cutting machine, but even less skill. Making a key for a lock WITHOUT an original nor code, requires skill. Many locksmiths don't have the skill, can't do it quickly enough to make money, don't think that they can charge enough to make it worth while, etc. It can be done by impression cutting, or disassembling the lock. Often the lock needs to be picked open first. It is usually cheaper to simply buy a new lock. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred