14 Aug
2000
14 Aug
'00
11:32 p.m.
Sellam, quoting Chuck:
Hang on. In principle I agree with Chuck and Sam, but you can cause a lot of
trouble by using the wrong words. To start with, DON'T accuse this guy of fraud
until you have had at least two more goes at getting your money back!
I am not a lawyer, and certainly not an American lawyer, but I claim you have
missed the difference between FRAUD and MISREPRESENTATION.
What you have here is misrepresentation - the seller has claimed the item is a
computer, when it actually isn't.
English law makes a distinction between the civil offence "Innocent
misrepresentation" - the seller genuinely did not intend to sell you a dud - and
the criminal offence "Fraudulent misrepresentation" - the seller actually
intended to defraud you. (A lot of English law depends on intent - very hard to
prove, but...)
In a case of innocent misrepresentation, the sale is voidable - you can sue for
your money back, and you have to return the goods essentially undamaged
(excepting cases like a machine that died when you tried to use it because it
was misrepresented as being suitable for the job).
In a case of fraudulent misrepresentation, the penalties can be higher -
including consequential losses - and I think the seller can even go to jail.
I can see that you're going to be annoyed paying $200 for a box with no
circuitry in it. But don't start accusing people of crimes like fraud until you
have exhausted other avenues...
I suggest you find out what the American equivalent of innocent
misrepresentation is called, and accuse him of that - privately first, and then
backed by lawyers and the courts. Again, in the UK a matter of $200 (plus costs
of course) would be the province of the Small Claims Court, but I don't know how
it works in the US.
Have fun :-(
Philip.
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Nope, this is
fraud plain and simple. What was sold was an electronic
"prop" used in furniture stores to highlight how a piece of furniture might
look at home. I've seen a variety of things from color TVs to Amiga's done
up this way. Usually on the bottom is the sticker from the company
(Proptronics usually, but there are others) that created it. Some of their
more interesting ones are color TVs with a color picture in the "tube" and
a light bulb behind it. The boring ones are all cardboard.
If I were you I'd contact the seller and ask for a refund.
I agree with Chuck here. You were out & out defrauded. Luckily for you,
you're within beating distance of this guy. Ideally you're in the same
county, and you can threaten him with a complaint to the District Attorney
(in the States, he's the top prosecutor for the county one lives in...you
don't generally have THE D.A. prosecute your case (unless he/she wants to
set an example with your case) but your complaint is referred to the
D.A.'s office for follow-up by one of the prosecutors there...anyway,
enough of American Gubment 101).
If he refuses to follow through with the refund, file the complaint. As
Chuck suggests, you can also file a claim with the Post Office which will
follow up on this.
Jim, don't settle for anything less here. You were defrauded by this
person, whether it was intentional on his part or not. $200+ is way too
much money to be spent on a piece of plywood. Get your money back. 
15 Aug
15 Aug
3:56 a.m.
On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com wrote:
English law makes a distinction between the civil
offence "Innocent
misrepresentation" - the seller genuinely did not intend to sell you a
dud - and the criminal offence "Fraudulent misrepresentation" - the
seller actually intended to defraud you. (A lot of English law
depends on intent - very hard to prove, but...)
These matters are pretty black & white in the U.S. Either it's fraud or
not, and if so, we execute you :)
Seriously though, you make a reasonable point.
I suggest you find out what the American equivalent of
innocent
misrepresentation is called, and accuse him of that - privately first,
and then backed by lawyers and the courts. Again, in the UK a matter
of $200 (plus costs of course) would be the province of the Small
Claims Court, but I don't know how it works in the US.
It may very well be that if he does report this to the District Attorney
that the D.A. will simply refer him to the Small Claims court (I think the
maximum claim heard in Small Claims in the U.S. is $5,000?) However, I
think the US Post Office might be more inclined to investigate it.
However, I think what's more important here is the threat of taking these
actions. The seller will hopefully realize that Jim genuinely feels he's
been defrauded/misrepresented and might volunteer to repay the money
rather than go through all the hassle.
What would help, Jim, is if you do your research with regards to the law
in advance of talking to the seller again. Maybe call the D.A. and see
what they say about the incident. Or call the PO if the D.A. does not
have jurisdiction and see what they say. Armed with this knowledge, you
can very precisely explain to the seller what will happen if he refuses to
refund your money.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
5:26 a.m.
At 08:56 AM 8/15/00 -0700, Sellam wrote:
However, I think what's more important here is the
threat of taking these
actions. The seller will hopefully realize that Jim genuinely feels he's
been defrauded/misrepresented and might volunteer to repay the money
rather than go through all the hassle.
This is always the key point. Talk to the seller and explain that what he
sold you was not a computer, it was a prop. And therefore you don't think
it is worth $200+.
If the seller has *any* integrity at all, he will immediately offer to
refund your money. If he doesn't then that is clue #1. If you are at step 2
(he hasn't offered yet) and you tell him that you believe he misrepresented
the goods and you would like your money back. (except postage of course, he
is really out the cost of postage) and he refuses _again_, then you are
probably ok in suspecting he knew all along that it wasn't a computer. Now,
you need to talk about suing him for the $205 + expenses to collect it.
--Chuck
5:51 a.m.
New subject: Dealing with bad traders/vendors. [WAS: Sad auction story [exidy sorcerer]]
Sorry to hear about the original auction problem. Good luck getting a
refund.
That said, I'd like to offer some suggestions from personal experience to
make online trading/buying less painful:
- whenever possible, inspect the goods before buying. If too far away, ask
for pictures (download them as insurance). If neither of these is possible,
ask for a detailed description before buying. This will provide grounds for
a complaint if the item doesn't match the description.
- always keep all correspondence until a deal is completed to everyone's
satisfaction. A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. You
need a paper (or e-mail) trail.
- insist on getting a real world address and phone number from all sellers.
Check that the phone number works.
P.O. boxes make it too easy for unscrupulous sellers to disappear.
- ask for references where feasible. If none are available, do a quick
search on Dejanews to make sure the seller isn't a known bad trader.
- if you have a problem, be polite with the seller, at least at first.
Remember you want something from them. No one responds well to an email
like "Where's my f**cking stuff, you rotten b**tard?".
- Provide full details of the problem in every communication, and explain
what you want from the seller. E.g. "I'm writing about eBay auction ######.
You cashed my money order on the 7th, and you promised shipping within a
week. It's now the 24th, and I haven't received anything. Could you please
give me the the details of how the package was shipped, and when it was
sent".
- detail the resolution you want. "I will ship the item back to you at my
expense, as soon as you return my money order to me."
- if you get the runaround, or no response, keep trying, with measured
escalation that shows you want to resolve things amicably. E.g. "Unless I
receive proof of shipment by August 24, I will have to post negative
feedback on eBay, and contact Visa to have my payment reversed. I would
prefer to avoid that. Please send the shipment tracking number to ..."
- To complain, use the easiest mechanisms first. If using an online auction
house, use the complaint service provided, like SafeHarbor on eBay. If
shipping was by mail, complain to the Post Office. If none of these works,
turn to the courts, if feasible.
Just my 2 cents.
Mark.
8896
days inactive
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3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
gregorym＠cadvision.com -
Philip.Belben＠pgen.com