On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: Ok, then I can say quite imperiously that DECUS needs to go away since it only seems to be existing to annoy hobbyist VMS users. What if every DECUS member simply did not extend or renew their membership? Can it be assumed that funding for DECUS would simply dry up and DECUS would be no longer? If so, then VMS hobbyist licenses would be "up in the air" so to speak. With Compaq now having been sucked up into HP, and HP probably not giving a damn either way, my guess is that hobbyist VMS use would be relegated to a "public domain" model. Is there a lapse in my reasoning anywhere here? I just see no reason at this point why DECUS needs to be, and why people need to pay money to use VMS in a hobbyist mode. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: No, I didn't. And having checked, it looks like a general users group for OpenVMS. Ok. What I have been querying about is why hobbyists really need to pay money to use VMS "legally". Does this apply to ALL versions of VMS or just OpenVMS? If it's just for OpenVMS then I can understand that. But if someone wants to copy an older version of VMS from someone else to run their VAX 11/780 and connect it to the internet, would that be "illegal"? I see, you get that through this site: http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

Before the LMF came in (V5.0 for VMS, I forget what version of Ultrix it started with), the OS would install and run but not allow logins from anywhere other than the console until you installed a licence key tape. This was a kit that just patched LOGINOUT.EXE to change the maximum number of users that would be allowed in. A similar kit changed DECnet functionality from (IIRC) no external connections, through "end node" to "full routing node". I don't think there was anything to stop you handing the kit over to someone else who could then reuse it (other than prison, of course). Remember that in those days trhe smallest machine was a VAX-11/725 and a VAX-11/750 was a more practical minimum size. By the time you'd paid for the hardware (and the air-conditioned room and the 50MB winchesters etc.) you were unlikely to run risk your business and/or University department to save a little added cost. I think the LMF stuff came about for a few reasons that all coincided. The MicroVAX stuff meant smaller departments would begin to buy machines and they would be quite likely to be stuffed into a corner and not managed much (if at all). The advent of the CDROM for distribution meant that there was a need to find a way to stop someone "accidentally" installing everything under the Sun and then claiming that they'd forgotten it was there and noone ever used it anyway. As a security mechanism, LMF is pretty poor. As a way of forcing you to go out of your way to break the law in a way that it is hard to later acknowledge your actions, it is pretty good! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org

It was the DEC (business) USER group, so anything DEC or DEC-related goes. These days that would leave mostly OpenVMS and Tru64 but in days of yore RSX-11 and RSTS and RT-11 and the rest would have featured. I'm not sure if you now realise that it's free, or still believe that money needs to change hands. Step 1 (JOIN ...) can be done for free (I managed from the UK), and the rest are either optional or merely require a number of electrons to move far enoughfor a few emails to go back and forth. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org

On Wednesday 11 February 2004 18:32, Witchy wrote: Join ENCOMPASS-US at Associate level for free: http://www.encompassus.org/membership/join.html *looks* ooer, you're right - it asks for an Associate ID. I don't remember this bit! Tried putting a generic login-name for yourself? eg: "witchy" ? alex/melt

All sorted, the field just had to be filled in. *rubs hands in glee* Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Owner & Webmaster, Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o(

But if you only want hobbyist VMS you go here: https://secure2.sba.com/encompass/memberApp/associate.cfm Which is free, gratis and for nothing. Cheers

So it's not 7-10 business days then eh? *huff* I was pleased to read on the hobbyist FAQ that you just need to keep reregistering yer paks when they expire after 12 months....... Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Owner & Webmaster, Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o(

I'll wait and see then. Antonio, how long did it take for yours to come back? A small price to pay for a fully functioning oVMS webserver! Cheers w

When the licenses expire nothing will actually happen until you reboot the machine, at which point LMF will refuse to load them. VMS itself will still come up but you'll only be allowed to log in at the console. 'Course, VMS has its reputation for reliability so it normal circumstances a reboot might not happen for the next year, but I have a habit of tripping the power in this house :) If hp *does* say 'screw that' I'll just build a linux or *BSD box. It's not like I haven't got the hardware to do it :) Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Owner & Webmaster, Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o(

The only reason they charge $100 for the Tru64 package is due to royalties they have to pay. BTW, Zane, your posts come out as one long line rather than having lines shorter than 80 characters. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net

Yes, that message is coming out correctly. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net

I believe things are in place to continue the program even if HP does drop out. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net

I'm not talking about Encompass (Interex has nothing to do with the program). I have no problem with the way the OpenVMS Hobbyist program is set up, and I know that if the plug is pulled I'm not going to be hung out to dry. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net

Nope, Interex can take no credit for any part of the OpenVMS Hobbyist program. Interex membership isn't even listed as qualifying here: http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/get_yer_licenses/join_user_group.html There's more information on the history of the program here: http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/openvms_history/hobbyist_history/index.html As you can see, DECUS (which became Encompass) and the DFWLUG (which became the DFWCUG) started the program and still maintain it. Indeed, we shall. I've talked to the people behind the scenes and am pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net

I guess that needs to be updated. It still doesn't mean Interex can take any credit for any part of the program. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net

Quothe Eric Dittman, from writings of Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 03:48:42PM -0600: Ummm, you mean like that that document explaining how to modify VMS as necessary to keep using it? :-) ...or the FreeVMS project? It seems oddly backwards to say something like "It would be nice to see FreeVMS ported from PCs to VAXen." :-) All that said, the program does seem like a good thing---well, the best that's come along yet from any of the (once) major computer corporations, so I really shouldn't gripe about the limitations. After all, at least, unlike DG's AOS/VS operating system (drool---still, I'm not discarding my AOS/VS manual set), we get to use new versions of the software, although I seem to recall that 5.x is better for older systems such as the VAX 4000 series and earlier. Presently I've got 5.x on my VAX 4000-200, but no way to back it up (still haven't found a cheap SCSI board and don't have mounting hardware for the TK50), so I avoid using it, not wanting to put any more hours on the old DSSI disks. After getting to the right Encompass form, I filled it out, and will see what happens. Still, not sure if I want to install the new OS version if I do get it though. Has anyone tried installing OpenVMS by copying parts of it, from a CD on another (non DEC) machine via a network connection, to an unused disk on the VAX? -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

Copy the VMS*.% and DECW*.% files to [000000] on whichever disk has enough space (including the system disk if this is an UPGRADE and you have enough room on it afterwards to still perform said upgrade) and off you go. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org

I don't have an exact figure, but something like a week sounds about right. Anything longer and I would have lost patience anyway :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org

Seen on comp.os.vms: Currently on www.encompassus.org when one follows the links for "join today" for an associate member, one comes to the form at https://secure2.sba.com/encompass/memberApp/associate.cfm This form requires it's first field "Associate ID". As a newly joining member he doesn't have an associate ID yet. The form for "renew online" (https:////secure2.sba.com/encompass/memberApp/associate_renew.cfm) has the "Associate ID" optional. Perhaps this explains the problems some people have had? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org

Quothe Witchy, from writings of Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 03:49:20PM -0000: Why? Does VMS stop working? If so, surely there's a way to hack around that problem. Seems to me that, somewhere around here, I have some documentation pertaining solving that type of problem... :-) -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

On Thursday 12 February 2004 17:21, R. D. Davis wrote: LMF, and indeed the checksum that produces the licence codes we enter can be easily cracked. There are a few people that've done it before. The real issue is whether we really should all start using these cracked licences. If we did, I feel that HPAQ would give up on the VMS hobbiest program altogether and stem the free flow of upgrades and install disks. Therefore, I registered with a DEC User Group that would take me and I get my DEC licences every year. To show that there are people still out here that support, use and appreciate the hobbiest program. alex/melt

Anything you like, the field just needs something in it. If I'd been thinking ahead I could've used my expired DECUS ID .....don't they check for that sort of thing? Like, oo here's a DECUS ID let's make sure they're still a member? Cheers w

Encompass is a separate entity from HP. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: Probably, at some point. No, HP would probably allow Montagar or other groupsto handle the issue. Hah. Yes. HP Does Not Believe In Public Domain. Right. --f

Did DECUS *ever* supply licences for commercial use of OpenVMS? I know some DEC Partners could do so at some point (probably subject to some restrictions, like it had to be with new hardware perhaps), but I've never heard of DECUS doing that. Even with the Hobbyist program, it's not DECUS that ships (shipped) the licences; the Montagar people use a DECUS membership number as a prerequisite (I guess because when this was all set up the prime movers were also involved with their local DECUS chapters). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org