20 Jan
2004
20 Jan
'04
7:03 a.m.
Here's my take on the issue of not being able to use standard drivers and
receivers for UNIBUS and Q-bus. Aren't both of these buses old enough that DEC
made devices for both of them using only discrete logic, no ASICs? If they did
make UNIBUS and Q-bus devices w/o ASICs using only standard discrete logic, as
I'm sure they did, what did they use for drivers and receivers?
MS
20 Jan
20 Jan
7:39 a.m.
On Tue, Jan 20, 2004 at 10:03:06AM -0800, Michael Sokolov wrote:
Here's my take on the issue of not being able to
use standard drivers and
receivers for UNIBUS and Q-bus. Aren't both of these buses old enough that DEC
made devices for both of them using only discrete logic, no ASICs?
Yes, but some devices are not so old and _do_ use ASICs. There are some
peripherals that came out at the same time as the 11/20 (~1970) that
they are made up of several square feet of TTL/Linear chips.
If they did make UNIBUS and Q-bus devices w/o ASICs
using only standard
discrete logic, as I'm sure they did, what did they use for drivers and
receivers?
Unibus? 8640, 8641, 340, 8881, DC013 (custom DEC chip)
Qbus? DC003, DC004, DC005, DC006, DC010, 74LS240, 8837, 8838
In other words, with few exceptions, *not* ordinary TTL chips (though ISTR
one of their busses used hand-selected 7438s chosen for low (1uA?) leakage.
There are _some_ bus lines that can be loaded/driven by ordinary parts.
However, unlike an ISA card, DEC cards tended towards custom chips of
their own, or designed-as-such bus drivers/receivers from companies like
National Semiconductor.
These are from memory, so if I've made any mistakes, I'm sure someone will
correct me. :-)
-ethan
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Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
12:06 p.m.
Here's my take on the issue of not being able to use standard drivers and
receivers for UNIBUS and Q-bus. Aren't both of these buses old enough that DEC
made devices for both of them using only discrete logic, no ASICs? If they did
Well, that was certainly the case for Unibus. I think all DEC Qbus boards
used the DC005, etc, ASICs, theough...
make UNIBUS and Q-bus devices w/o ASICs using only
standard discrete logic, as
I'm sure they did, what did they use for drivers and receivers?
Driver : 8881 (quad 2 input NAND with open collector outputs)
Receiver : SP380 (quad 2 input NOR)
Good luck in finding either of these new today...
-tony
1:10 p.m.
On Tuesday 20 January 2004 18:06, Tony Duell wrote:
Driver : 8881 (quad 2 input NAND with open collector
outputs)
Does anyone have a spec sheet on the 8881's? I "might" have a few of
them laying around that I could use right about now... If nothing
else, a pinout would be helpful.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
21 Jan
21 Jan
2:04 a.m.
I thought that some of the 8000-series parts were later assigned 74xxx
numbers as that emerged as an
industry-standard. There are several parts indicated as such in Lancaster's
_TTL Cookbook_. Does
anyone have a complete cross-reference for these?
--Bill
22 Jan
22 Jan
6:48 a.m.
Signetics 8881 is
14 - Vcc
7 - Gnd
13 - o/p A
12&11 - i/p's A
10 - o/p B
8 & 9 - i/p's B
1 - o/p C
2&3 - i/p's C
4 - o/p D
5&6 - i/p's D
Device is TTL. Info from old Quarndon Electronics Digital Intergrated
Circuits Catalogue circa 1970's.
Geoff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat(a)computer-refuge.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: brew-your-own-unibus boards?
On Tuesday 20 January 2004 18:06, Tony Duell wrote:
Driver : 8881 (quad 2 input NAND with open
collector outputs)
Does anyone have a spec sheet on the 8881's? I "might" have a few of
them laying around that I could use right about now... If nothing
else, a pinout would be helpful.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ 
7:27 a.m.
I missed the first part of this discussion and I just found this message
by chance. However it is NOT TTL, it's DCL according to my 1971 Signetics
Digital 8000 Series TTl/MSI catalog. Since it's not TTL this catalog
doesn't have a data sheet for it but they do have a list of all of their
ICs including the DCL ones and it's listed there. They say that it's a Quad
2-input NAND gate and that it's listed in the DCL supplement handbook.
Joe
At 05:48 PM 1/22/04 +0000, you wrote:
Signetics 8881 is
14 - Vcc
7 - Gnd
13 - o/p A
12&11 - i/p's A
10 - o/p B
8 & 9 - i/p's B
1 - o/p C
2&3 - i/p's C
4 - o/p D
5&6 - i/p's D
Device is TTL. Info from old Quarndon Electronics Digital Intergrated
Circuits Catalogue circa 1970's.
Geoff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat(a)computer-refuge.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: brew-your-own-unibus boards?
On Tuesday 20 January 2004 18:06, Tony Duell
wrote:
Driver : 8881 (quad 2 input NAND with open
collector outputs)
Does anyone have a spec sheet on the 8881's? I "might" have a few of
them laying around that I could use right about now... If nothing
else, a pinout would be helpful.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
11:15 a.m.
The difference must be the " N " on the front , but the heading on the page
says
" Signetics 8400/8800 Series TTL " . Obviously the Texas reference to
the N8881 is for a later TTL device.
Geoff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe R." <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: brew-your-own-unibus boards?
I missed the first part of this discussion and I
just found this message
by chance. However it is NOT TTL, it's DCL according to my 1971 Signetics
Digital 8000 Series TTl/MSI catalog. Since it's not TTL this catalog
doesn't have a data sheet for it but they do have a list of all of their
ICs including the DCL ones and it's listed there. They say that it's a
Quad
2-input NAND gate and that it's listed in the DCL
supplement handbook.
Joe
At 05:48 PM 1/22/04 +0000, you wrote:
>Signetics 8881 is
>
>14 - Vcc
> 7 - Gnd
>
>13 - o/p A
>12&11 - i/p's A
>
>10 - o/p B
>8 & 9 - i/p's B
>
>1 - o/p C
>2&3 - i/p's C
>
>4 - o/p D
>5&6 - i/p's D
>
>Device is TTL. Info from old Quarndon Electronics Digital Intergrated
>Circuits Catalogue circa 1970's.
>
>Geoff.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat(a)computer-refuge.org>
>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
><cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:10 AM
>Subject: Re: brew-your-own-unibus boards?
>
>
>> On Tuesday 20 January 2004 18:06, Tony Duell wrote:
>> > Driver : 8881 (quad 2 input NAND with open collector outputs)
>>
>> Does anyone have a spec sheet on the 8881's? I "might" have a few
of
>> them laying around that I could use right about now... If nothing
>> else, a pinout would be helpful.
>>
>> Pat
>> --
>> Purdue University ITAP/RCS
>> Information Technology at Purdue
>> Research Computing and Storage
>> http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
>
>
11:37 a.m.
You're probably right. Even the Signetics catalog is confusing since
both the TTL and DCL parts are 8xxx parts. There's not even an "N" to
differentiate them in it.
joe
At 10:15 PM 1/22/04 +0000, Geoff wrote:
The difference must be the " N " on the front
, but the heading on the page
says
" Signetics 8400/8800 Series TTL " . Obviously the Texas reference to
the N8881 is for a later TTL device.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe R." <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: brew-your-own-unibus boards?
I missed the first part of this discussion and
I just found this message
by chance. However it is NOT TTL, it's DCL according to my 1971 Signetics
Digital 8000 Series TTl/MSI catalog. Since it's not TTL this catalog
doesn't have a data sheet for it but they do have a list of all of their
ICs including the DCL ones and it's listed there. They say that it's a
Quad
2-input NAND gate and that it's listed in the
DCL supplement handbook.
Joe
At 05:48 PM 1/22/04 +0000, you wrote:
>Signetics 8881 is
>
>14 - Vcc
> 7 - Gnd
>
>13 - o/p A
>12&11 - i/p's A
>
>10 - o/p B
>8 & 9 - i/p's B
>
>1 - o/p C
>2&3 - i/p's C
>
>4 - o/p D
>5&6 - i/p's D
>
>Device is TTL. Info from old Quarndon Electronics Digital Intergrated
>Circuits Catalogue circa 1970's.
>
>Geoff.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat(a)computer-refuge.org>
>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
><cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:10 AM
>Subject: Re: brew-your-own-unibus boards?
>
>
>> On Tuesday 20 January 2004 18:06, Tony Duell wrote:
>> > Driver : 8881 (quad 2 input NAND with open collector outputs)
>>
>> Does anyone have a spec sheet on the 8881's? I "might" have a few
of
>> them laying around that I could use right about now... If nothing
>> else, a pinout would be helpful.
>>
>> Pat
>> --
>> Purdue University ITAP/RCS
>> Information Technology at Purdue
>> Research Computing and Storage
>> http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
>
>
11:41 a.m.
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 15:21:54 CST
From: Douglas W. Jones <jones(a)pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu>
Message-Id: <9402242121.AA04487(a)pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu>
To: pdp8-lovers(a)ai.mit.edu
Subject: Rare chips
Status: RO
X-Status:
I've recently spent some time in the library using their CDROM catalog of
all IC and discrete components currently made on earth. In the process,
I've uncovered sources that the catalog, at least, lists as current
manufacturers of a number of chips that aren't exactly common but are
needed to keep Omnibus machines alive and running:
Lansdale Semiconductor seems to have inherited most of Signetics
discontinued stuff, including the Utilogic (SP) series, and the Signetics
8000 series.
314 - 7 input nor gate
317 - dual 4 input expandable nor gate
380 - quad 2-input nor gate
384 - quad 2-input or gate
8250 - binary to octal decoder
8251 - BCD to decimal decoder
8881 - quad 2-input nand gate
Note, on the 380, that Signetics came out with the 8T380 somewhat later,
and that this is a pin for pin replacement with schmidt trigger inputs
(the original SP380 didn't have schmidt trigger inputs). Phillips is
listed as the current manufacturer of the 8T380.
Both Lansdale and Phillips have lots of local distributors.
The most interesting chip I tracked down is the MH8641; the database lists
one remaining manufacturer for this chip, Tesla Elektronicke, 756 61 Roznov
Pod, Radhostem, Czechoslovakia (beats me what the velvet revolution did to
that postal address; is it the modern Czech replblik or the modern Slovak
republic).
I haven't placed any orders, so I don't know if you can actually get any
of these chips. I also haven't been able to track down data sheets for
any of them (although I did get the 8T380 data sheet).
Doug Jones
jones(a)cs.uiowa.edu
I found the above reference whilst googling - have Iowa still got that
cd-rom ?
Also the following
Additionally, most output drivers where originally selected 7401 chips noted
by a leading select digit of 9 (97401). This was upgraded to the 8881,
which
is also a popular Q-bus driver. In fact, there is an additional chip used
as a bidirectional driver called 8641, that combines some of the
functionality
of both the 8881 and 8640. It's used is the MM-8AB memory, and many Q-bus
cards.
@
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/usenet/al
t.sys.pdp8/9211.asp
Geoff.
>> On
Tuesday 20 January 2004 18:06, Tony Duell wrote:
>> > Driver : 8881 (quad 2 input NAND with open collector outputs)
>>
>> Does anyone have a spec sheet on the 8881's? I "might" have a few
of
>> them laying around that I could use right about now... If nothing
>> else, a pinout would be helpful.
>>
>> Pat
>> --
>> Purdue University ITAP/RCS
>> Information Technology at Purdue
>> Research Computing and Storage
>> http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
>
>
12:25 p.m.
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
I found the above reference whilst googling - have
Iowa still got that
cd-rom ?
E-mail Doug Jones and ask him:
jones(a)cs.uiowa.edu
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8:59 a.m.
Further to my earlier post the cross comparison does not show a direct
equivalent for
the N8881A in the Texas range. Only data given for the N8881A is :
Tpd 16 nS
PTOT 48 mW
Stop press,
Texas data book does give SN5401/SN7401 as a direct replacement for the
8881 - and the pinouts do match.
Geoff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat(a)computer-refuge.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: brew-your-own-unibus boards?
On Tuesday 20 January 2004 18:06, Tony Duell wrote:
Driver : 8881 (quad 2 input NAND with open
collector outputs)
Does anyone have a spec sheet on the 8881's? I "might" have a few of
them laying around that I could use right about now... If nothing
else, a pinout would be helpful.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
7488
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11 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
geoffreythomas＠onetel.net.uk -
msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
wmaddox＠pacbell.net