china $1,000,000,005 richer

no Z80, just paper tape holes. :)

It probably does if you use it to clean up around my workbench. -tony

At 07:16 PM 9/4/2009 -0400, you wrote: I have read extensively about the dangers of static discharge in shop dust handling systems. Seems all that moving particulate inside an ABS or PVC pipe generates a tremendous static discharge potential. Most books recommend snaking stranded copper wire down the inside of the 4-to-6" hose and pipe used on such systems. You bring it out at the joints, smear the holes with silicone RTV, and wire-nut it all together. I'd imagine you can do something similar with a shop-vac, just use #14 or #16 wire instead of the #10 they recommend for shop dust systems. One would have to get into the motor assembly to find a ground, since that's as far as the line cord goes. There's no metal anywhere on the beast, outside the motor and impeller, so you'd have to have a ground wire in the bucket too. ----- 604. [Science] In the pure and physical sciences each generation inherits the consequences made by its predecessors, but in the moral sciences, particularly the arts of administration, the ground seems never to be incontestably won. --Unknown --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531

On 4 Sep 2009 at 19:16, Brian Lanning wrote: While we're on the subject--is there a different rating system for commercial applications? Most consumer upright vacuums boast 10-12 amp motors, whatever that means. After experiencing the dubious joy of owning several consumer vacs in about as many years, I bought a commercial vacuum, rated for hotel use. This by comparison, has a 6 amp motor, yet it does a job that's at least as good as my last 10 amp consumer model. The motors don't seem to be very different in size, though the commercial one is ball-bearing and metal-housed and has a brand that I recognize. This reminds me of the old IHF "Music Power" ratings for audio gear of many years past. Pure stuff and nonsense. --Chuck

On 4 Sep 2009 at 23:29, Brian Lanning wrote: Remember that these are universal motors though and current drawn under what load conditions matters a lot. I still have the 10 amp vac; I should see what a clamp-on ammeter says during normal operation. I That's been the rage for a few years with consumer upright vacs, particularly with the Dysons. The problem of course is that the final filter is usually fairly expensive and slowly clogs during operation. I've had a couple of the cyclonic ones and went back to a double-layer disposable bag. I figure it runs about the same amount of money for the same performance and I get like-new performance every time I dump the bag. Cyclonic may work well for wood debris, but I wouldn't give you a plugged nickel for a shop vac with cyclonic separation sucking up sheetrock sanding dust on a foggy winter day. And a 1x2 isn't 1" x 2". It's been that way forever. The plywood I've purchased over the last 3 decades have all called out the actual finished sanded thickness. Is unsanded CDX the actual "nominal" thickness? I think so. The quality of the veneers used in modern plywood bothers me more than a 1/32" thickness variation. The mills don't even have the equipment to handle big peeler logs anymore--they'll even take 5 and 6 inch logs as veneer. It ain't what it used to be. Cheers, Chuck

On 4 Sep 2009 at 23:37, Ben wrote: In a true vintage thread, that's why a fair number of people buy antique furniture--or, like Brian, build their own (I enjoy doing that too). There's no shortage of good wood; the furniture makers would rather deal with a standardized stable manufactured product than have to deal with the issues that accompany real wood. So you wind up with a hunk of sawdust and glue with no strength, but that can be popped out like cookies from a bakery. I can understand Tony's appreciation for old gear from my own experience with currently manufactured furniture. --Chuck

Brian Lanning wrote: I live in a apartment so building furniture is not a option. How ever when you see 50%+ off on furniture sale, and don't pay interest until 5 years later and we throw in free delivery, I suspect somebody is making big profit. The same goes with kitchen cabinets. The only problem with making things is new tools cost 10x more than the item you are making. Still one good thing can be said for MFB, it gives the classic computer consoles its look.

On 5 Sep 2009 at 11:06, Ben wrote: The local community college here offers evening courses in woodworking and has a very well-equipped shop for student use. I know people who have signed up for the course so they could build their own kitchen cabinets. --Chuck

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ben<bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: There's people on the woodworking forums that do it. I agree that it does present some problems though. :-) If I had to do it, I'd probably either keep the tools in a storage rental place that had power, or keep to hand tools at the apartment. Kitchen cabinets are no better. They look good on the outside, but as soon as you open something, it's sawdust inside. I agree. The machines are expensive. And like computers and cars, there's no limit to what you can spend. Basically, the only machines I don't have at this point are a shaper and wide belt sander. (although I do have a router table and a drum sander) New, shapers with tilting arbors would be in the $2000-$3000 range for a good one, and the cutters are expensive also. The wide belt sanders are even worse. They're in the $3000 to $20,000 range new and require 3-phase power for the larger ones. If I had to buy all the tools in my shop again new, it would be as much as a new japanese sedan. But I've been really shopping sales over the years. Amazon was clearing out tools for a while at around 70% off. So I got good stuff at good prices. I don't really need half of the tools in the shop to make furniture though. They just provide more options or make certain tasks easier, faster, better results, etc. If you look at higher end furniture where a dresser could be $2000, it doesn't take many pieces to offset the cost of the tools. Plus you get exactly what you want in terms of size, shape, finish, durability, family heirloomicity, etc. If you're used to walmart funiture though, it's nowhere near worth it. A couple without destructive kids who never moves could do just fine with a $75 ikea dresser for quite some time. But that's not us. But a few thousand dollars could get you off to a good start and able to make some nice furniture. I'm thinking about getting into metal working also. I'm planning to get a box and pan brake, and sheers at some point. I'm also planning to take a welding class and a class for learning how to use lathes, mills, etc. It would be nice to add metal to the furniture I make. I could make my own steel computer cases also. Do you mean MDF? And which computers used something like it?

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Ben<bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: Before my time. :-) I'm surprised! Most old computers that weren't plastic were made of armor plate. brian

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Jules Richardson<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: If you want, you can post something to the woodworking section at woodnet.net. A lot of the woodworkers there are a bit more serious about harvesting their own and have their own portable-sawmill-on-a-trailer thingies. Just remember that the branches can't be used, no matter how big or straight. You'll want to dry it the right way also. woodnet.net. :-) Quite a lot of antique furniture can still be used today. And they didn't have modern glues. brian

Chuck Guzis wrote: CP1600? True ... just have wheels, lights and core memory. :)

Chuck Guzis wrote: The same could be said for most baked products today found in the supermarket. Still regardless of the flack, I suspect the USA unlike Canada here has still a lot of Mom and Pop stores that you can find products worth selling or eating. PS. I look for value for my $$$ , not the lowest cost. oops my $10 keyboard is sticking again. Ben.

Dave McGuire wrote: Yes... maybe not in your part of the country, but there are certainly smaller stores around here worth shopping at. Including one that sells only handmade solid-wood furniture. And a traditional Italian bakery. Both within 5 minutes drive of my house. Of course, they cost more. Of course I buy there. Peace... Sridhar

Dave McGuire wrote: I guess my bookshelves and computer desk are about to go *Kaboom* any time now. Ben.

At 08:36 AM 9/5/2009 -0500, you wrote: I have several router bits and dado heads that are sold as being for half-inch plywood, but they cut a smaller slot, so that the plywood fits properly in the slot. Wikipedia: For convenience, we refer to lumber by its nominal dimensions, which are larger than its actual fractional size (see above table). This difference occurs because nominal dimensions traditionally referred to rough lumber, whose size was reduced in drying and planing. In addition, the standard finished dimensions of lumber have decreased through time?the typical 13/16 inches for a 1-inch board in the 1910s was reduced by 4% in 1929 and by another 4% in 1956, resulting in the current standard of 3/4 inch.[2] The move to set national standards for lumber in the United States began with publication of the American Lumber Standard in 1924, which set specifications for lumber dimensions, grade, and moisture content; it also developed inspection and accreditation programs. These standards have changed over the years to meet the changing needs of consumers, manufacturers, and distributors, so that lumber would remain competitive with alternative construction products. Current standards are set by the American Lumber Standard Committee, appointed by the Secretary of Commerce.[3] Especially if you have unlimited funds :-) ----- 681. [Confession] A man's very highest moment is, I have no doubt at all, when he kneels in the dust, and beats his breast, and tells all the sins of his life. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Tom Peters<tpeters at mixcom.com> wrote: I've seen those. To me, it's fixing the symptom instead of the problem. Also, they still vary in thickness. So even with the undersized router bit, you still may end up with a sloppy fit. If the dado is too wide for the plywood thickness, it's not a big deal because it's so close that it probably doesn't matter. But it might be too narrow for the plywood to fit, which is a headache. My solution was a dial-a-width stacked dado set in the table saw. There's also a technique where you cut a <3/4" dado in two passes with a 1/2" router bit. On the second pass, you use a scrap of the plywood in question to control the width. Perfect fit every time regardless of the plywood thickness. Plywood is not lumber. It's not been planed or dimensioned at all, just sanded sometimes. But that's just for surface quality. It's pressed into large sheets glued together with heat-activated glue. They can easily control the thickness and choose to make it thinner. If the plywood is coming from china, I can understand if it's a metric/imperial thing, which it is in that case. But the stuff here is just thinner because they can get away with it. I bet the missing thickness is lost to thinner veneers. Baltic birch plywood on the other hand (sometimes also called apple ply, not to be confused with the birch stuff at home depot) is great stuff though. It's sold in 5'x5' sheets so it's easy to spot. It comes in metric thicknesses that approximate 1/2 or 3/4 or whatever. It's not as bad as it sounds. If you buy oak boards from home depot and try to glue them up yourself, you'll get mediocre results. The wood they stock is over-priced and so-so quality. It's also been planed down to (actual) 3/4" already, but still likely to be cupped or twisted. The right way to do it is to buy rough lumber from a place like this: http://kmhardwoods.com/hardwood.php If you buy what's called 4/4 (four quarter) boards, you can plane them down to whatever thickness you want. Of course, you need a jointer and a planer, which aren't cheap. But if you keep doing this over the years, you can easily recoup the money saved over shopping at home depot, end up with higher quality wood, any thickness you want instead of what they stock, and your boards will be flat with invisible glue lines. I realize it's not for your average person though. I've been collecting shop tools for 10 years, and I'm only just now feeling like I have a complete shop. I guess I'm also valuing my time more now. I'd rather spend an extra $100 on a piece of furniture I'm making and use real wood if I'm going to spend the time on it. To get us back on topic, :-) Once I get the shop back together over the next few weeks, I'm planning to make a few monitor stands, an interesting design with dovetails and computer-carved edge banding. I'm also planning a custom baltic birch plywood and plexi case for my amiga 1200 motherboard, something with a lot of interior lighting that I can hang on the wall in my computer room and still use. I've thought about making some other wood computer cases as well, like something for the amiga 2000. And also, to my wife's dismay, I've found myself wanting an old console television like the one my parents had back in the 70s. It would be fun to play colecovision or intellivision games on it. I considered making one as a piece of furniture and putting a flatscreen in it. I think it deserves a tube though. :-) Maybe I can find a large tube tv on craigslist for free and build a new case for it. brian

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: I use a "cyclone lid" that I got from Veritas. I use it with my ShopBot and the lid just sits on top of a 30 gallon garbage can. Works fantastic. Does require a 4" hose to be used though. I use a 1.5hp Harbor Freight dust collector with it. For a shop vac, you can't beat a Fein Turob III. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

On Sep 4, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: Doesn't it seem obvious to anyone else that this is akin to saying "this is a better car because it burns more gas"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

At 06:58 PM 9/4/2009 -0500, you wrote: Ok, since you asked: After a few brief uses, I see the pros and cons this way: - Con: Incompatible hardware standards. The other vacs I've acquired free or at rummages sales, and they use either 1-3/8" OD tools or 2-1/2" OD tools. The new one looked like it might be the 2-1/2" standard, but it isn't. The tools you stick on the end of the hose or 2 included extensions have to be 1-3/4 inches outside diameter. - Con: My other vacs use a paper filter- a big circle of paper you fold over the inner cage on the motor assembly, and slide a ring down over it to hold it. This one uses a pleated paper filter that you have to buy from a Rigid dealer for about $15 a two-pack. No idea if they last longer than the other kind. - Pro: Came with hose, a small floor or flat surface attachement, and two extension tubes. - Con: Might need a brush tool with bristles, have to buy one. - Pro: Nothing I've thrown at it gets stuck so far. Big problem with the smaller hoses on the other vac. - Pro: This thing sucks. I mean really sucks. Stronger suction force than the other two I have. - Pro: It's pretty quiet for what it does. - Pro: The dimples on top of the feet (casters in the bottoms of these feet) hold all the tools you're not presently using, securely... - Con: ...As long as you only have four tools or fewer. - Pro: It was cheap! ----- 320. [Philosophy] "I shall cheerfully bear the reproach of having descended below the dignity of history." --Lord Macaulay. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531

On Sep 5, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: This is how my entire country works. If it didn't, Wal*Mart would've been out of business long ago. It's disgusting. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL