7 Feb
2015
7 Feb
'15
6:25 a.m.
I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and M8163
"Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
regarding it. At least the M8162 has a pair of 20ma-style SLU connectors
on it, but no UARTs that I can see.
Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11? Or to
something else entirely?
Is the MKA11 (which I can't find documented online) a revised MK11? The
field-guide seems to imply this given its entry for the M8164 which
basically reads like this:
M8158 MK11 U Address buffer module
M8159 MK11 U Data buffer module
M8160 MK11 U Control A module
M8161 MK11 U Control B module
M8162 MK11 U Port MUX A module
M8163 MK11 U Port MUX B module
M8164 MK11/MKA11 U Data buffer module (Replaces M8159)
It seems to me that something is incorrect in the field-guide, but none of
my researches have identified where the error is and what the right
answer(s) might be.
Anyone here have any experience/knowledge with/of the MKA11 and/or the
M8261/M8163?
Thank you,
paul
11 Feb
11 Feb
11:55 a.m.
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
I don't understand the role of the M8162
"Port MUX A module" and M8163
"Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
regarding it. [...]
Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
on it.
Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
built for the cancelled 11/74.
12 Feb
12 Feb
2:24 a.m.
On 2015-02-11 20:55, Eric Smith wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel
<pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.
You can find documentation on the MKA11 in the 11/74 documentation.
(See
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp…)
And in there, you can find that:
M8162 is a "Multiport Multiplexor Module"
and
M8163 is a "Single Port Jumper Card".
So yes, both of these cards are for the MKA11.
I would guess that you use the M8163 if you have an MKA11 but just a
single CPU.
I don't understand the role of the M8162
"Port MUX A module" and M8163
"Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
regarding it. [...]
Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
on it. Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T
with the KB11-CM CPU
and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
built for the cancelled 11/74.
I've heard similar. And also that CPU cards for the 11/74 were installed
in 11/70 systems. The differences don't matter for normal operation, and
it will work like a normal 11/70. You can detect if differences if you
try, but the system will work like any other 11/70.
Only a few CPU modules differ between an 11/70 and 11/74 anyway.
Johnny
10:38 a.m.
On Feb 12, 2015 3:24 AM, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation.
All documentation I've
read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you
have.
Neither is a "valid designation", since neither was orderable. Some
internal DEC documentation on the multiprocessor systems referred to an
11/72, some didn't. Even for relased products there were often changes in
the designations before release. The marketing people have to appear to be
doing *something* to justify all the money they spend.
11:06 a.m.
On 2015-02-12 19:38, Eric Smith wrote:
On Feb 12, 2015 3:24 AM, "Johnny Billquist"
<bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Well, the 11/74 designation do exist in plenty of documentation, even if
it never was a product sold. There were lots of things made inside DEC
that never was sold. They still had names.
But the 11/72 designation is not something I can find in any
documentation. The 11/74 designation on the other hand is something you
can find in lots of places.
Johnny
I don't think that 11/72 is a valid
designation. All documentation I've
read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how
many CPUs you have.
Neither is a "valid designation", since neither was orderable. Some
internal DEC documentation on the multiprocessor systems referred to an
11/72, some didn't. Even for relased products there were often changes in
the designations before release. The marketing people have to appear to be
doing *something* to justify all the money they spend.
14 Feb
14 Feb
10:50 a.m.
So ... I should have stretched my mind a bit more in the space of "stuff
like an 11/70 but which is not an 11/70 ...". Encountering even a bit of
an 11/74 was simply not something that I ever considered. Thanks for the
pointer Johnny!
Looking at the preliminary Docs, Figure 1-1, where a two-processor
configuration is laid out, with two MKA11, it appears that they have their
ports cross-wired and then driven from a panel-control of some sort. So
there's 6-bits for MK0A/MK1A, and then a separate 6-bits for MK0B/MK1B (see
earlier response to Eric about the connector arrangements). Not at all
clear to me how that wiring relates to the description in 1.4.2. Need to
think about this some more ...
It seems then that the Field Guide has both of these modules mis-assigned,
and the second misnamed.
I wonder if the relationship between the M8163 and M8164 is an either/or
and they go into the same slot given that Table 1-1 mentions only a single
Multiport Multiplexor (M8162) and the naming in Table 1-3 for the M8163 is
"Single Port Jumper Card"? I guess that's what you're thinking as
well.
What is the purpose of the "panel" Port Controllers, given that they seem
to be not connected to any control signals from the CPU? (Figure 1-1)
Does the "T" in the symbology in the Figure perhaps indicate
"Terminator"?
If so, that seems to suggest that the signaling is out one control, into
the second and then off "through" a terminator to the panel Port Control?
Honestly, Figure 1-1 doesn't look to me like a shared-memory arrangement
... so I'm probably misinterpreting some of those lines at the moment.
Thanks for all of the additional clues and pointers guys!
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
On 2015-02-11 20:55, Eric Smith wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel
<pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.
You can find documentation on the MKA11 in the 11/74 documentation.
(See http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/
EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf)
And in there, you can find that:
M8162 is a "Multiport Multiplexor Module"
and
M8163 is a "Single Port Jumper Card".
So yes, both of these cards are for the MKA11.
I would guess that you use the M8163 if you have an MKA11 but just a
single CPU.
Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
I don't understand the role of the M8162
"Port MUX A module" and M8163
"Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
regarding it. [...]
Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
on it.
and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the
hardware that was
built for the cancelled 11/74.
I've heard similar. And also that CPU cards for the 11/74 were installed
in 11/70 systems. The differences don't matter for normal operation, and it
will work like a normal 11/70. You can detect if differences if you try,
but the system will work like any other 11/70.
Only a few CPU modules differ between an 11/70 and 11/74 anyway.
Johnny
10:59 a.m.
PS: Just noticed the Memory options in Table 1-3.
MKA11-AA is Single Port Memory and uses the Single Port Jumper Card.
MKA11-BA is Dual Port Memory and uses the Multiport Multiplexer.
MKA11-UA is Single port upgrade kit and includes a pair of port-buffers and
one multiport multiplexer :->.
MKA11-UB is Multiport upgrade kit adds another pair of port buffers; you
can apparently do this twice. So I guess one Multiport Multiplexer handles
up to four ports. Now ... how does two sets of six-bits fit into that
scheme?
M8164 isn't mentioned anywhere, so I guess that's simply a general-upgrade
replacing M8159 that applies to either MK11 or MKA11.
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
So ... I should have stretched my mind a bit more in
the space of "stuff
like an 11/70 but which is not an 11/70 ...". Encountering even a bit of
an 11/74 was simply not something that I ever considered. Thanks for the
pointer Johnny!
Looking at the preliminary Docs, Figure 1-1, where a two-processor
configuration is laid out, with two MKA11, it appears that they have their
ports cross-wired and then driven from a panel-control of some sort. So
there's 6-bits for MK0A/MK1A, and then a separate 6-bits for MK0B/MK1B (see
earlier response to Eric about the connector arrangements). Not at all
clear to me how that wiring relates to the description in 1.4.2. Need to
think about this some more ...
It seems then that the Field Guide has both of these modules mis-assigned,
and the second misnamed.
I wonder if the relationship between the M8163 and M8164 is an either/or
and they go into the same slot given that Table 1-1 mentions only a single
Multiport Multiplexor (M8162) and the naming in Table 1-3 for the M8163 is
"Single Port Jumper Card"? I guess that's what you're thinking as
well.
What is the purpose of the "panel" Port Controllers, given that they seem
to be not connected to any control signals from the CPU? (Figure 1-1)
Does the "T" in the symbology in the Figure perhaps indicate
"Terminator"? If so, that seems to suggest that the signaling is out one
control, into the second and then off "through" a terminator to the panel
Port Control?
Honestly, Figure 1-1 doesn't look to me like a shared-memory arrangement
... so I'm probably misinterpreting some of those lines at the moment.
Thanks for all of the additional clues and pointers guys!
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
wrote:
On 2015-02-11 20:55, Eric Smith wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel
<pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.
You can find documentation on the MKA11 in the 11/74 documentation.
(See http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/
EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf)
And in there, you can find that:
M8162 is a "Multiport Multiplexor Module"
and
M8163 is a "Single Port Jumper Card".
So yes, both of these cards are for the MKA11.
I would guess that you use the M8163 if you have an MKA11 but just a
single CPU.
Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
I don't understand the role of the M8162
"Port MUX A module" and M8163
"Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
regarding it. [...]
Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
on it.
and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the
hardware that was
built for the cancelled 11/74.
I've heard similar. And also that CPU cards for the 11/74 were installed
in 11/70 systems. The differences don't matter for normal operation, and it
will work like a normal 11/70. You can detect if differences if you try,
but the system will work like any other 11/70.
Only a few CPU modules differ between an 11/70 and 11/74 anyway.
Johnny
10:24 p.m.
there were links to pics of an 11/74 on the list a few months ago, weren't
there?
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
PS: Just noticed the Memory options in Table 1-3.
MKA11-AA is Single Port Memory and uses the Single Port Jumper Card.
MKA11-BA is Dual Port Memory and uses the Multiport Multiplexer.
MKA11-UA is Single port upgrade kit and includes a pair of port-buffers and
one multiport multiplexer :->.
MKA11-UB is Multiport upgrade kit adds another pair of port buffers; you
can apparently do this twice. So I guess one Multiport Multiplexer handles
up to four ports. Now ... how does two sets of six-bits fit into that
scheme?
M8164 isn't mentioned anywhere, so I guess that's simply a general-upgrade
replacing M8159 that applies to either MK11 or MKA11.
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
So ... I should have stretched my mind a bit more
in the space of "stuff
like an 11/70 but which is not an 11/70 ...". Encountering even a bit of
an 11/74 was simply not something that I ever considered. Thanks for the
pointer Johnny!
Looking at the preliminary Docs, Figure 1-1, where a two-processor
configuration is laid out, with two MKA11, it appears that they have
their
ports cross-wired and then driven from a
panel-control of some sort. So
there's 6-bits for MK0A/MK1A, and then a separate 6-bits for MK0B/MK1B
(see
earlier response to Eric about the connector
arrangements). Not at all
clear to me how that wiring relates to the description in 1.4.2. Need to
think about this some more ...
It seems then that the Field Guide has both of these modules
mis-assigned,
and the second misnamed.
I wonder if the relationship between the M8163 and M8164 is an either/or
and they go into the same slot given that Table 1-1 mentions only a
single
Multiport Multiplexor (M8162) and the naming in
Table 1-3 for the M8163
is
"Single Port Jumper Card"? I guess
that's what you're thinking as well.
What is the purpose of the "panel" Port Controllers, given that they seem
to be not connected to any control signals from the CPU? (Figure 1-1)
Does the "T" in the symbology in the Figure perhaps indicate
"Terminator"? If so, that seems to suggest that the signaling is out one
control, into the second and then off "through" a terminator to the panel
Port Control?
Honestly, Figure 1-1 doesn't look to me like a shared-memory arrangement
... so I'm probably misinterpreting some of those lines at the moment.
Thanks for all of the additional clues and pointers guys!
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
wrote:
> On 2015-02-11 20:55, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module"
and M8163
>>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the
MK11.
>>> They aren't part of the MK11 as
far as any documentation that I've
read
>>> regarding it. [...]
>>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>>>
>>
>> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
>> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
>> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any
documentation
>> on it.
>>
>
> I don't think that 11/72 is a valid designation. All documentation I've
> read only calls it an 11/74, no matter how many CPUs you have.
>
> You can find documentation on the MKA11 in the 11/74 documentation.
> (See http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/
> EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf)
>
> And in there, you can find that:
>
> M8162 is a "Multiport Multiplexor Module"
>
> and
>
> M8163 is a "Single Port Jumper Card".
>
> So yes, both of these cards are for the MKA11.
>
> I would guess that you use the M8163 if you have an MKA11 but just a
> single CPU.
>
> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
>> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
>> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>>
>
> I've heard similar. And also that CPU cards for the 11/74 were installed
> in 11/70 systems. The differences don't matter for normal operation,
and
it
will work
like a normal 11/70. You can detect if differences if you try,
but the system will work like any other 11/70.
Only a few CPU modules differ between an 11/70 and 11/74 anyway.
Johnny
10:14 a.m.
Thanks Eric. That might explain how I came into possession of one M8162
module. The 11/74 never entered my mind because encountering even a piece
of one of those is ... unlikely :->. Using up unsold inventory makes
sense; I guess that an MKA11 wouldn't function without a full complement of
modules, even if some serve no real purpose.
I've looked more closely at the pair of top-edge connectors (the ones like
the 20ma SLU connectors). Each have 6-of-8 pins wired *thru* a 1K 1%
resistor to a separate pin on tab F. So there are twelve lines running to
tab F, with resistors in series, and nothing else on those paths.
The rest of the module is a mix of S and LS SSI chips, and a couple of what
appear to be multi-tap delay lines, plus 5 diagnostic LEDs (unlabeled).
Would the KB11-CM have had special cabling to connect in this manner for
out-of-band signaling, and then why series resistors (rather than, e.g.,
pull-ups for an OC line driver)?
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel
<pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
I don't understand the role of the M8162
"Port MUX A module" and M8163
"Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the MK11.
They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
regarding it. [...]
Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
on it.
Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
built for the cancelled 11/74.
11:24 a.m.
On 2015-02-14 19:14, Paul Birkel wrote:
Thanks Eric. That might explain how I came into
possession of one M8162
module. The 11/74 never entered my mind because encountering even a piece
of one of those is ... unlikely :->. Using up unsold inventory makes
sense; I guess that an MKA11 wouldn't function without a full complement of
modules, even if some serve no real purpose.
The MKA11 is really not much different from an MK11, and you can use an
MKA11 in a normal 11/70 system as well as far as I understand.
Essentially, the MKA11 is just a multiported MK11 box. And the
multiporting is achieved through this extra module, that fits (as far as
I can remember) in the standard MK11 box.
All the other modules in the MKA11 are the same as in the MK11.
I've looked more closely at the pair of top-edge
connectors (the ones like
the 20ma SLU connectors). Each have 6-of-8 pins wired *thru* a 1K 1%
resistor to a separate pin on tab F. So there are twelve lines running to
tab F, with resistors in series, and nothing else on those paths.
The rest of the module is a mix of S and LS SSI chips, and a couple of what
appear to be multi-tap delay lines, plus 5 diagnostic LEDs (unlabeled).
Would the KB11-CM have had special cabling to connect in this manner for
out-of-band signaling, and then why series resistors (rather than, e.g.,
pull-ups for an OC line driver)?
I don't think so. There is not out-of-band signalling. But you do have a
control panel for the memory box, on which you can control the box. I
would suspect this would be for that.
(I think there are some extra controls for an MKA11 compared to the
standard panel of an MK11, which is for (I think) setting the memory
on-/offline for individual CPUs, and possibly something more. It should
be in the documentation I put in a link to.
Johnny
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and
M8163
>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the
MK11.
>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
>> regarding it. [...]
>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>
> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
> on it.
>
> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
15 Feb
15 Feb
2:43 a.m.
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
On 2015-02-14 19:14, Paul Birkel wrote:
As I understand the wording in the slim documentation, each port will
require another pair of M8158/M8159 Address/Data Buffers. So a dual-ported
unit would need two of these pairs, and a quad-ported unit four pairs. The
M8162 then coordinates the (up to 4) pairs.
Thanks Eric. That might explain how I came into
possession of one M8162
module. The 11/74 never entered my mind because encountering even a piece
of one of those is ... unlikely :->. Using up unsold inventory makes
sense; I guess that an MKA11 wouldn't function without a full complement
of
modules, even if some serve no real purpose.
The MKA11 is really not much different from an MK11, and you can use an
MKA11 in a normal 11/70 system as well as far as I understand. Essentially,
the MKA11 is just a multiported MK11 box. And the multiporting is achieved
through this extra module, that fits (as far as I can remember) in the
standard MK11 box.
All the other modules in the MKA11 are the same as in
the MK11.
Except the numbers of buffer pairs, there being up to 4 pairs possibly
installed?
The MK11 chassis was already full, so they would have had to reduce the
complement of MOS-modules in the MKA11. By the time of the 11/74
presumably it was the case that increased-density ICs would have allowed
more-RAM-per-module, so the loss in MOS-module count per MKA11 would have
been acceptable.
I've looked more closely at the pair of top-edge
connectors (the ones like
Right (line-diagram Figure 1-1 is pretty crude).
the 20ma SLU connectors). Each have 6-of-8 pins
wired *thru* a 1K 1%
resistor to a separate pin on tab F. So there are twelve lines running to
tab F, with resistors in series, and nothing else on those paths.
The rest of the module is a mix of S and LS SSI chips, and a couple of
what
appear to be multi-tap delay lines, plus 5 diagnostic LEDs (unlabeled).
Would the KB11-CM have had special cabling to connect in this manner for
out-of-band signaling, and then why series resistors (rather than, e.g.,
pull-ups for an OC line driver)?
I don't think so. There is not out-of-band signalling. But you do have a
control panel for the memory box, on which you can control the box. I would
suspect this would be for that.
(I think there are some extra controls for an MKA11
compared to the
standard panel of an MK11, which is for (I think) setting the memory
on-/offline for individual CPUs, and possibly something more. It should be
in the documentation I put in a link to.
Beyond the claim that "Port Controls" exist, and where they get installed
in the racks, I don't see any.
Best available images seem to be at:
http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html
I like the user-supplied color-coded dots :->. Can *almost* decipher the
front panel labeling, too.
That said, they look to me to be identical to the standard MK11 "Box
Controller". No clue there what the extra cabling might be doing. Maybe
the extra cabling doesn't actually involve the "Box Controller" on the
front panel at all. Perhaps simply cross-linkage among the Port
Multiplexers in different MKA11 (can't think of a good reason for that,
offhand)?
Johnny
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A module" and
M8163
>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of the
MK11.
>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that I've read
>> regarding it. [...]
>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>>
>
> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any documentation
> on it.
>
> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
3:37 a.m.
On 2015-02-15 11:43, Paul Birkel wrote:
If you need one M8158/M8159 per CPU, in addition to the M8162 (one per
two CPUs?), that means a lot of cards.
Those are copies of some of the pictures Dave Carroll made a bunch of
years ago. The originals are here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/104560031285123036919/albums/563265478848821…
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Hmm. That might be, I should read through the documentation.
On 2015-02-14 19:14, Paul Birkel wrote:
As I understand the wording in the slim documentation, each port will
require another pair of M8158/M8159 Address/Data Buffers. So a dual-ported
unit would need two of these pairs, and a quad-ported unit four pairs. The
M8162 then coordinates the (up to 4) pairs. Thanks Eric. That might explain how I came into
possession of one M8162
module. The 11/74 never entered my mind because encountering even a piece
of one of those is ... unlikely :->. Using up unsold inventory makes
sense; I guess that an MKA11 wouldn't function without a full complement
of
modules, even if some serve no real purpose.
The MKA11 is really not much different from an MK11, and you can use an
MKA11 in a normal 11/70 system as well as far as I understand. Essentially,
the MKA11 is just a multiported MK11 box. And the multiporting is achieved
through this extra module, that fits (as far as I can remember) in the
standard MK11 box.
All the other
modules in the MKA11 are the same as in the MK11.
Except the numbers of buffer pairs, there being up to 4 pairs possibly
installed? The MK11 chassis was already full, so they would have
had to reduce the
complement of MOS-modules in the MKA11. By the time of the 11/74
presumably it was the case that increased-density ICs would have allowed
more-RAM-per-module, so the loss in MOS-module count per MKA11 would have
been acceptable.
No. Unfortunately it will not work that way.
The MK11 have a backplane which uses a special addressing scheme which
sets the maximum memory size per card to 128Kword. So a fully stocked
normal MK11 is 2 Mword. If you reduce the number of slots for memory
cards, you will simply not be able to get the full 2Mword in one box,
but will be forced to go for 2 boxes.
The original memory cards for the MK11 is 32Kword, which meant you had
to have a number of MK11 boxes to get to max memory. I'm not sure the
128Kword cards were even available when the 11/74 was made.
The limitation isn't only the lack of more address pins for the memory
cards. Each card slot have a card enable signal, in addition to the
address pins. At reset time, the M8158/M8159 sets up the ECC of all
cards in parallel, by enabling all the card select pins in parallel and
writing data. So in essence, all memory cards are written to in parallel
at reset.
As a small side note, the VAX-11/750 uses the same memory card bus as
the MK11. So you can move 32Kword and 128Kword memory cards between an
11/70 and a VAX-11/750. However, the VAX-11/750 also supports 512Kword
cards, but those can not be used an a MK11 box without both hardware and
software hacking. (If someone wants to try this, let me know. I can
provide more details on what is needed to be done in order to do this,
since I have done it in the past.)
I've
looked more closely at the pair of top-edge connectors (the ones like
Right (line-diagram Figure 1-1 is pretty crude).
the 20ma SLU connectors). Each have 6-of-8 pins
wired *thru* a 1K 1%
resistor to a separate pin on tab F. So there are twelve lines running to
tab F, with resistors in series, and nothing else on those paths.
The rest of the module is a mix of S and LS SSI chips, and a couple of
what
appear to be multi-tap delay lines, plus 5 diagnostic LEDs (unlabeled).
Would the KB11-CM have had special cabling to connect in this manner for
out-of-band signaling, and then why series resistors (rather than, e.g.,
pull-ups for an OC line driver)?
I don't think so. There is not out-of-band signalling. But you do have a
control panel for the memory box, on which you can control the box. I would
suspect this would be for that.
(I think there are some extra controls for an
MKA11 compared to the
standard panel of an MK11, which is for (I think) setting the memory
on-/offline for individual CPUs, and possibly something more. It should be
in the documentation I put in a link to.
Beyond the claim that "Port Controls" exist, and where they get installed
in the racks, I don't see any.
Best available images seem to be at:
http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html I like the user-supplied color-coded dots :->. Can
*almost* decipher the
front panel labeling, too.
That said, they look to me to be identical to the standard MK11 "Box
Controller". No clue there what the extra cabling might be doing. Maybe
the extra cabling doesn't actually involve the "Box Controller" on the
front panel at all. Perhaps simply cross-linkage among the Port
Multiplexers in different MKA11 (can't think of a good reason for that,
offhand)?
I would have to research this more to answer. :-)
But you are right in that it appears each CPU have its own panel for
each box, meaning the same box could appear at different addresses for
different CPUs. I had forgotten that. That is pretty cool, and I guess
that is how they managed to run diagnostics on one CPU while the others
were running in normal production. (There are special tools in
RSX-11M-PLUS to do some cool stuff around this.)
I wonder if there might be some connection between the memory boxes and
the IIST?
Johnny
Johnny
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't understand the role of the M8162 "Port MUX A
module" and M8163
>>>> "Port MUX B module" that the field-guide claims to be part of
the MK11.
>>>> They aren't part of the MK11 as far as any documentation that
I've read
>>>> regarding it. [...]
>>>> Do these modules really belong to the MKA11, rather than the MK11?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The MKA11 was the multiported version of the MK11, intended for
>>> multiprocessor (11/72 and 11/74) systems. it makes sense that it would
>>> have some "port mux" modules, though I've never seen any
documentation
>>> on it.
>>>
>>> Reportedly some 11/70 systems were sold to AT&T with the KB11-CM CPU
>>> and MKA11, apparently just as a way to use up the hardware that was
>>> built for the cancelled 11/74.
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
5:56 p.m.
It appears that the module utilization of the MKA11 is significantly
different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
(mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
16 Feb
16 Feb
12:05 a.m.
Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in the middle slot
(#15).
As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
connectors are used for ... nothing? Test points (through series
resistors)?
I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables. The
remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
looks like a 1Mw configuration. Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
careful?
Agree about the missing documentation :-<.
Thanks for the better pic-pointer; knew that I can seen those in the past
but couldn't recall where (and Google didn't help).
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
It appears that the module utilization of the MKA11 is
significantly
different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
(mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
12:23 a.m.
Ah. I need to count better. There are *two* MKA11 per CPU, thus each only
*needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in
the middle slot
(#15).
As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
connectors are used for ... nothing? Test points (through series
resistors)?
I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables. The
remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
looks like a 1Mw configuration. Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
careful?
Agree about the missing documentation :-<.
Thanks for the better pic-pointer; knew that I can seen those in the past
but couldn't recall where (and Google didn't help).
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
It appears that the module utilization of the
MKA11 is significantly
different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
(mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
12:42 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
Ah. I need to count better. There are *two* MKA11
per CPU, thus each only
*needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.
I don't think so. The system shown in the photos has four CPUs, and
four MKA11 boxes. The MKA11 boxes are located in the right half of
the cabinet housing CPU C, and the left half of the cabinet housing
CPU D. There's no evidence in the photos of there being any more
MKA11 boxes other than those. For instance, the right half of the
cabinet housing CPU B clearly contains no MKA11 boxes, but rather what
appear to be Unibus expansion boxes. Only one photo shows the the
right half of the cabinet housing CPU A open, and the view is
partially obstructed by the CPU being extended out on its rails, but
it definitely does not appear to have any MKA11 boxes either.
If each MKA11 box has eight MS11-KE storage array modules (M7984),
that is 256KW per MKA11, for 1MW total. While that's only just over
half of the physical memory address space of the CPUs (1920KW, because
the top 128KW is reserved for the Unibus address space), that seems
like a very plausible real-world system configuration.
8:12 a.m.
On 2015-02-16 09:42, Eric Smith wrote:
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Paul Birkel
<pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
Agree.
Ah. I need to count better. There are *two*
MKA11 per CPU, thus each only
*needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.
I don't think so. The system shown in the photos has four CPUs, and
four MKA11 boxes. The MKA11 boxes are located in the right half of
the cabinet housing CPU C, and the left half of the cabinet housing
CPU D. There's no evidence in the photos of there being any more
MKA11 boxes other than those. For instance, the right half of the
cabinet housing CPU B clearly contains no MKA11 boxes, but rather what
appear to be Unibus expansion boxes. Only one photo shows the the
right half of the cabinet housing CPU A open, and the view is
partially obstructed by the CPU being extended out on its rails, but
it definitely does not appear to have any MKA11 boxes either. If each MKA11 box has eight MS11-KE storage array
modules (M7984),
that is 256KW per MKA11, for 1MW total. While that's only just over
half of the physical memory address space of the CPUs (1920KW, because
the top 128KW is reserved for the Unibus address space), that seems
like a very plausible real-world system configuration.
Box 0 and 2 are clearly setup to be interleaved with each other, and
both have a 0 starting address, is is located in the cabinet holding CPC.
I wish I could read out what the thumbwheel switches on box 1 and 3 are
set to in the cabinet holding CPD, as that would tell us how much memory
are in each box.
But I would have expected the boxes to hold close 512KW per box. With
the 128KW modules, that would be easy to reach.
Johnny
1:28 a.m.
Need more experience finding Waldo, too! I see that only C/D have the
MKA11 in their associated-rack, so that's 1 Mw/CPU in the configuration
seen.
What's going on in the A/B associated racks? I see what appear to be three
BA11-L chassis (lower-A; upper- & lower-B). And then a non-standard
forward-facing vertical-orientation quad-height(?) module-cage in mid-B
(any ideas as to what that might be; the bit of backplane visible to the
left looks more like something QBus-era)? Finally there's the large blank
cover in upper-A ...
What role might the 11/44(?) have played (really fancy serial-console)?
Looks rather aged in appearance; surprising.
Would those have been MASSBUS drives in that 4-wide rack-set (perhaps
hidden behind the lower panels; not sure about the row immediately above
that, but the two to the upper-right appear to be RL02)?
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
Ah. I need to count better. There are *two* MKA11
per CPU, thus each
only *needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162
there in the middle slot
(#15).
As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
connectors are used for ... nothing? Test points (through series
resistors)?
I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables. The
remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
looks like a 1Mw configuration. Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
careful?
Agree about the missing documentation :-<.
Thanks for the better pic-pointer; knew that I can seen those in the past
but couldn't recall where (and Google didn't help).
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
It appears that the module utilization of the
MKA11 is significantly
different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
(mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we can't
study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
2:07 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 2:28 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
Need more experience finding Waldo, too! I see that
only C/D have the
MKA11 in their associated-rack, so that's 1 Mw/CPU in the configuration
seen.
Mw/CPU isn't an especially useful measure. It's an SMP systems, so
there's some total amount of memory that is shared by all CPUs. None
of it is dedicated to a single CPU, unless the memory control panels
are used to partition the system, which would typically only be done
for diagnostic purposes. On a commonplace quad-core desktop PC, no
one talks about gigabytes of memory per CPU core, because the memory
is shared between all of the cores, the same as the normal
configuration of the 11/74.
The fact that the MKA11 boxes happen to be in the CPU C and CPU D
cabinets has nothing whatsoever to do with their being associated with
a particular CPU. They had to be in some cabinets, and those were
somewhat arbitrary chosen when the configuration was designed. Putting
one MKA11 in each CPU cabinet would have resulted in the need for much
longer ribbon cables runs for each memory bus, because the MKA11 boxes
are daisy-chained. Putting all the MKA11 boxes in close proximity
significantly reduces the overall cable lengths. This is why the 11/74
is configured with some CPUs in the left side of their cabinets, and
some in the right side, to specifically allow for two adjacent
half-cabinets to contain up to four MKA11 boxes.
8:23 a.m.
On 2015-02-16 10:28, Paul Birkel wrote:
Need more experience finding Waldo, too! I see that
only C/D have the
MKA11 in their associated-rack, so that's 1 Mw/CPU in the configuration
seen.
It don't make sense to talk about the memory as per CPU, since it is
shared between all CPUs...
What's going on in the A/B associated racks? I
see what appear to be three
BA11-L chassis (lower-A; upper- & lower-B). And then a non-standard
forward-facing vertical-orientation quad-height(?) module-cage in mid-B
(any ideas as to what that might be; the bit of backplane visible to the
left looks more like something QBus-era)? Finally there's the large blank
cover in upper-A ...
What role might the 11/44(?) have played (really fancy serial-console)?
Looks rather aged in appearance; surprising.
The serial consoles are the four LA120 in front of the system. Each CPU
has its own console.
What 11/44 are you looking at?
Would those have been MASSBUS drives in that 4-wide
rack-set (perhaps
hidden behind the lower panels; not sure about the row immediately above
that, but the two to the upper-right appear to be RL02)?
Oh, are you talking about the two double-width cabinets to the side?
Right cabinet definitely holds two RL02 (or possibly RL01) along with
two Unibux expansion boxes, from the look of it.
The left one is more tricky. Looks like two Unibus boxes there as well.
Top right, I would guess, is a DT07, which is a Unibus switch.
Top left is perhaps what you referred to as an 11/44. Not sure what it
is. I don't think it's an 11/44, or any other CPU. Possibly another
Unibus box. Below is a TK50, though.
Not sure what is below the DT07 either. Might be more parts of the DT07,
or something unrelated.
I don't think there is anything behind the panels, but either way, there
are no massbus drives there. Those require more space, and access.
Johnny
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ah. I need to count better. There are *two* MKA11 per CPU, thus each
> only *needs* just a 1 Mw configuration due to address-space limitations.
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in the middle slot
>> (#15).
>>
>> As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
>> connectors are used for ... nothing? Test points (through series
>> resistors)?
>>
>> I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables. The
>> remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
>> looks like a 1Mw configuration. Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
>> careful?
>>
>> Agree about the missing documentation :-<.
>>
>> Thanks for the better pic-pointer; knew that I can seen those in the past
>> but couldn't recall where (and Google didn't help).
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It appears that the module utilization of the MKA11 is significantly
>>> different than the MK11, so it must have a much different backplane.
>>> The photo of the MKA11 only shows eight storage array modules, in
>>> slots 9-12 and 18-21, though slots 5-8 and 22-25 might also be
>>> available for storage array modules. The memory bus cabling is
>>> obviously quite cumbersome, and adding storage modules in slots 22-25
>>> looks like it could exacerbate that problem.The MK11 supports 16
>>> storage array modules in slots 2-9 and 18-25. The module assignments
>>> for the non-storage modules also appear to be different.
>>>
>>> It's a shame that the KB11-Cm and MKA11 field maintenance print sets
>>> aren't anywhere to be found. While the available 11/74 documentation
>>> offers a description of how the KB11-Cm differs from the KB11-C
>>> (mostly interlocked ASRB and cache bypass), it's a shame that we
can't
>>> study the actual details of how those changes were implemented.
>>>
>>
>>
>
12:27 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Paul Birkel <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162 there in
the middle slot
(#15).
As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
connectors are used for ... nothing? Test points (through series
resistors)?
I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables. The
remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
looks like a 1Mw configuration. Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
careful?
It appears to me that the off-white or light-grey cables are address
and data cables, just as the grey ones, and the color was simply what
was available at the time, or from a different cable vendor. The other
boxes show different mixes of shades of gray for their cables.
I believe that the molex connectors on the card in slot 15 are for the
control box, and were either removed for the photograph, or were not
necessary for the operation of the machine. Note that CPU A and B do
not have fully populated memory control panels, which suggests that
the memory control panel wasn't strictly necessary for machine
operation, though obviously very desirable for diagnostic purposes. I
don't really know, but if I'd designed the MKA11, I would have
designed it so that without the controller connected, all ports are
enabled.
3:39 a.m.
Regarding cable coloring, the fact remains that the M8159 Data Buffer has a
J5 Berg connector down over tabs E/F, whereas both the M8158 & M8159 have
their J1/2/3/4 data/address Berg connectors up over tabs A/B/C. I'd say
that the color-differences happen to be significant in this case, but only
because they happen to align with the location of J5 :->. Agree that
what's happening, color-wise, over the upper-tabs doesn't _seem_ to be
significant.
Since you've raised the topic of the Box Controllers, I see 16 (or 8
top-over-bottom pairs). Isn't that enough for 4 MK11 (or MKA11)?
Note that 1170mP_Jul77_text.pdf also includes some additional MKA11
information, and improved diagrams. Interesting comments regarding initial
consideration of developing a MP based on the 11/34.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 3:27 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Paul Birkel
<pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
Notice the two unused connectors on the M8162
there in the middle slot
(#15).
As this looks like an operational configuration, I infer that those two
connectors are used for ... nothing? Test points (through series
resistors)?
I see (how can one miss!) the address and data ribbon-cables. The
remaining white ribbon-cables must be for the box controllers. So, that
looks like a 1Mw configuration. Maybe 1.5Mw if, as you suggest, you're
careful?
It appears to me that the off-white or light-grey cables are address
and data cables, just as the grey ones, and the color was simply what
was available at the time, or from a different cable vendor. The other
boxes show different mixes of shades of gray for their cables.
I believe that the molex connectors on the card in slot 15 are for the
control box, and were either removed for the photograph, or were not
necessary for the operation of the machine. Note that CPU A and B do
not have fully populated memory control panels, which suggests that
the memory control panel wasn't strictly necessary for machine
operation, though obviously very desirable for diagnostic purposes. I
don't really know, but if I'd designed the MKA11, I would have
designed it so that without the controller connected, all ports are
enabled.
3597
days inactive
3606
days old
21 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
bqt＠update.uu.se -
jacob.ritorto＠gmail.com -
pbirkel＠gmail.com -
spacewar＠gmail.com