11 Oct
2010
11 Oct
'10
1:23 p.m.
Hi,
VTL stands for Vendor Transitor Logic.
I (finally) found it in a S/34 hardware manual.
VTL is Texas Instrument TTL chips with IBM part numbers.
Henk
www.ibmsystem3.nl
11 Oct
11 Oct
2:03 p.m.
New subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic
On 2010 Oct 11, at 10:23 AM, Henk Stegeman wrote:
VTL stands for Vendor Transitor Logic.
I (finally) found it in a S/34 hardware manual.
VTL is Texas Instrument TTL chips with IBM part numbers.
Henk
www.ibmsystem3.nl
Looking at your web page:
http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/5410/images/M10CPUflow.jpg
The diagram shows 8-bit data paths and ALU, but most of the
user-registers are 16-bits.
Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it
look like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always
processed 2 bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed
8/16?
2:36 p.m.
New subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic
Just curious about the architecture: at the
programmer's level did it look
like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2
bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16?
S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very non-traditional.
--
Will
2:51 p.m.
New subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic
From: William Donzelli
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM
> Just curious about the architecture: at the
programmer's level did it look
> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2
> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16?
S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory,
basically. Very non-traditional.
Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine.
The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in anything other
than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the System/3x and
AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.PDPplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
8:02 p.m.
New subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic
Correction The System/3 was the first RPG II machine and the System/34 also used RPG II
whereas the System/38 introduced RPG III,? The problem with the logic cycle was that it
didn't fit well into the interactive model environment.? Interestingly Honeywell
(Italy I think) introduced a RPG III compiler for their DPS System 4000 IDBS4 was their
attempt at a relational database as found on System/38.? THe IBM 360/20 was the
predecessor to the System/3 and unlike the other 360's was a 16 bit machine with a
reduced instruction set.
Russ
--- On Mon, 10/11/10, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote:
From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com>
Subject: RE: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 2:51 PM
From: William Donzelli
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM
> Just curious about the architecture: at the
programmer's level did it look
> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2
> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16?
S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory,
basically. Very non-traditional.
Not for IBM.? The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine.
The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in anything other
than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the System/3x and
AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.PDPplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
9:16 p.m.
New subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic
From: Russ Bartlett
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 5:02 PM
--- On Mon, 10/11/10, Rich Alderson <RichA at
vulcan.com> wrote:
> From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com>
> Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 2:51 PM
> From: William Donzelli
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM
>>> Just curious about the architecture: at
the programmer's level did it
>>> look like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always
>>> processed 2 bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed
>>> 8/16?
>> S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory,
basically. Very
>> non-traditional.
> Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a
character-oriented machine.
> The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user
programmers in anything
> other than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the
> System/3x and AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program
> product.
Correction The System/3 was the first RPG II machine
and the System/34
also used RPG II whereas the System/38 introduced RPG III, The problem
with the logic cycle was that it didn't fit well into the interactive
model environment. Interestingly Honeywell (Italy I think) introduced a
RPG III compiler for their DPS System 4000 IDBS4 was their attempt at a
relational database as found on System/38. THe IBM 360/20 was the
predecessor to the System/3 and unlike the other 360's was a 16 bit
machine with a reduced instruction set.
Thanks for the correction on RPG II vs. III; I thought RPG II was a 360
product, but then, I never used any version of RPG. I did my sentence as a
financial systems programmer in COBOL and PL/I on a 370/168 and Amdahl 470.
There is one more connection between the S/3 (and possibly its successors?)
and the 1401: The character encoding on the cute little 96-column card was
the same as the internal BCD representation of those characters on the
1401. I learned that in 1972-73 from a System/3 that I worked around but
not with, when I still had the 1401 character set representation in my head
and in my documentation collection.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.PDPplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
8:57 p.m.
New subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic
On 2010 Oct 11, at 11:51 AM, Rich Alderson wrote:
From: William Donzelli
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM
OK, forgot about that possibility. I was aware of the 1401 (but not
> Just curious about the architecture: at the
programmer's level did
> it look
> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always
> processed 2
> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16?
> S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very
> non-traditional. from direct experience).
Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a
character-oriented machine.
The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in
anything other
than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the
System/3x and
AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product.
(I should have said machine-instruction level rather than programmer's
level.)
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participants (5)
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arcbe2001＠yahoo.com -
h.j.stegeman＠hccnet.nl -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
RichA＠vulcan.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com