16 Jul
2007
16 Jul
'07
2:25 p.m.
The recent discussion on interesting system architectures triggered a memory
I have of a documentary on TV somewhere (Discovery? TechTV? PBS?) on
evolvable hardware. There was some intrigue in the episode, on investors
accusing researchers of bad faith, or lying, or a scam. Hardware was built,
I'm pretty sure it was the CAM-Brain, and it was used quite a bit before the
company that built it went under (It may have been Genobyte along with ATR,
but I remember the company being based out of England)
Anyways, this definitely counts as "interesting" hardware. An FPGA based
computer that optimizes it's own logic based on a given problem. The
CAM-Brain was built, as was an FPGA engine built by HP, and another in Japan
somewhere. Here are some links if anyone is interested:
The CAM-Brain:
http://trappist.elis.ugent.be/~heeckhau/CBM/
Hugo de Garis has an interesting website discussing weather we should build
super-brains (Artliects) or not:
http://www.iss.whu.edu.cn/degaris/
Adrian Thompson, one of the bigwigs in evolvable hardware design:
http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/adrianth/ade.html
16 Jul
16 Jul
2:39 p.m.
Jason McBrien wrote:
The recent discussion on interesting system
architectures triggered a
memory
I have of a documentary on TV somewhere (Discovery? TechTV? PBS?) on
evolvable hardware. There was some intrigue in the episode, on investors
accusing researchers of bad faith, or lying, or a scam. Hardware was built,
I'm pretty sure it was the CAM-Brain, and it was used quite a bit before
the
company that built it went under (It may have been Genobyte along with ATR,
but I remember the company being based out of England)
Anyways, this definitely counts as "interesting" hardware. An FPGA based
computer that optimizes it's own logic based on a given problem. The
CAM-Brain was built, as was an FPGA engine built by HP, and another in
Japan
somewhere. Here are some links if anyone is interested:
I had an idea like this once. It involved an FPGA executing bytecodes
in microcode, and loading gate configurations from ROM for often-used
bytecodes as it ran.
Peace... Sridhar
5:47 p.m.
On Jul 16, 2007, at 2:39 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Sorta like a Just-In-Time "compiler" for hardware configurations?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The recent
discussion on interesting system architectures
triggered a memory
I have of a documentary on TV somewhere (Discovery? TechTV? PBS?) on
evolvable hardware. There was some intrigue in the episode, on
investors
accusing researchers of bad faith, or lying, or a scam. Hardware
was built,
I'm pretty sure it was the CAM-Brain, and it was used quite a bit
before the
company that built it went under (It may have been Genobyte along
with ATR,
but I remember the company being based out of England)
Anyways, this definitely counts as "interesting" hardware. An FPGA
based
computer that optimizes it's own logic based on a given problem. The
CAM-Brain was built, as was an FPGA engine built by HP, and
another in Japan
somewhere. Here are some links if anyone is interested:
I had an idea like this once. It involved an FPGA executing
bytecodes in microcode, and loading gate configurations from ROM
for often-used bytecodes as it ran.
7:36 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
Sorta like a Just-In-Time "compiler" for hardware configurations?
Exactly. JIT-optimizing processor.
Peace... Sridhar
The recent discussion on interesting system
architectures
triggered a memory I have of a documentary on TV somewhere
(Discovery? TechTV? PBS?) on evolvable hardware. There was some
intrigue in the episode, on investors accusing researchers of bad
faith, or lying, or a scam. Hardware was built, I'm pretty sure
it was the CAM-Brain, and it was used quite a bit before the
company that built it went under (It may have been Genobyte along
with ATR, but I remember the company being based out of England)
Anyways, this definitely counts as "interesting" hardware. An
FPGA based computer that optimizes it's own logic based on a
given problem. The CAM-Brain was built, as was an FPGA engine
built by HP, and another in Japan somewhere. Here are some links
if anyone is interested:
I had an idea like this once. It involved an FPGA executing
bytecodes in microcode, and loading gate configurations from ROM
for often-used bytecodes as it ran. 
8:10 p.m.
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Exactly. JIT-optimizing processor.
That may run
fast but does the byte code compiler produce good code?
I get get the impression that you often have 1 pass compilers
like Pascal or Tiny C that produce byte code style source
at the expense of better code.
Peace... Sridhar
9:34 p.m.
On 7/16/07, woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
That may run fast but does the byte code compiler produce good code?
I get get the impression that you often have 1 pass compilers
like Pascal or Tiny C that produce byte code style source
at the expense of better code.
It's genetic/cellular automata style computation. It cycles through various
logic configurations until it finds the optimal setup. The bad news is that
it means that the "compile" cycles could take a while. The good news is once
an optimal algorithm is found, it's saved for later. This scheme should
theoretically work well for compute-intensive operations, especially those
requiring lots of variables, such as DSP and fluid dynamics.
9:45 p.m.
Jason McBrien wrote:
It's genetic/cellular automata style computation.
It cycles through various
logic configurations until it finds the optimal setup. The bad news is that
it means that the "compile" cycles could take a while. The good news is
once
an optimal algorithm is found, it's saved for later. This scheme should
theoretically work well for compute-intensive operations, especially those
requiring lots of variables, such as DSP and fluid dynamics.
They have had that years ago -- And star treks's computers even had blinking lights.
But oddly you made me wonder about a FPGA system can handle the problem
since most problems off hand don't seem to be integer math, rather floating
point of some sort. I just don't trust the words computer science uses
not the algorithms.
11:07 p.m.
woodelf wrote:
Jason McBrien wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that last sentence.
Peace... Sridhar
It's genetic/cellular automata style
computation. It cycles through
various
logic configurations until it finds the optimal setup. The bad news is
that
it means that the "compile" cycles could take a while. The good news
is once
an optimal algorithm is found, it's saved for later. This scheme should
theoretically work well for compute-intensive operations, especially
those
requiring lots of variables, such as DSP and fluid dynamics.
They have had that years ago -- And star treks's computers even had
blinking lights.
But oddly you made me wonder about a FPGA system can handle the problem
since most problems off hand don't seem to be integer math, rather floating
point of some sort. I just don't trust the words computer science uses
not the algorithms.
11:44 p.m.
On Jul 16, 2007, at 11:38 PM, woodelf wrote:
Oh, of course there has, it's just not readily visible in the
mainstream. People keep buying computers built around processors
that implement a worn-out 1970s-era architecture that wasn't even
particularly good when it was new.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I'm not
sure I understand what you mean by that last sentence.
While I have not taken
computer science, other than brute speed
there does not seem to much advancement in computer development
as was predictied by computer science.
17 Jul
17 Jul
12:14 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
Oh, of course there has, it's just not readily
visible in the
mainstream. People keep buying computers built around processors that
implement a worn-out 1970s-era architecture that wasn't even
particularly good when it was new.
Well I am buiding a byte ( 12 bits ) serial von newman achitecture
CPU(1) and what new features can I add from todays architecture?
My design is for single user, single process since it is rather
slow. .8 us memory access time. Short(12) & ints(24) are the only data
types suported.
-Dave
--Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
(1)
I(ndex)/A(c) reg (zero/pc),SP,IX,IT,A,B,C,BP
O(p) St,ld,and,or,xor,add,sub,misc
M(ode) Quick (#0-7),Control,r++ word,r++ byte,
index short word,index byte word, index long word,index long byte
opcode 12 bits Op,Ac,Mode,Index
1:40 a.m.
From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
----snip---
But oddly you made me wonder about a FPGA system can
handle the problem
since most problems off hand don't seem to be integer math, rather floating
point of some sort. I just don't trust the words computer science uses
not the algorithms.
Hi
Actually, I find that most are incorrectly using floating point
where they should have given the problem a little more though
and used a more predictable integer math.
Many only use floating point because they think it is less likely
to give the wrong results. Often times it does just that and
isn't recognized that it did until too late. The problem is that
even in floating point, one should do the same levels of checking
that are needed for integer, it just isn't done by most and
many haven't got a clue how to do it.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_mig…
18 Jul
18 Jul
9:25 a.m.
I did some more research, the documentary I was trying to remember was about
Professor Hugo de Garis, when he was working for Starlab in Belgium until
they went bankrupt.
http://www.iss.whu.edu.cn/degaris/news/bankrupt.html
Wiki info on de Garis and his ideas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_de_Garis
Info on Starlab, including the Discovery channel documentary:
http://www.space-time.info/starlab/StarlabArchive.html
16 Jul
16 Jul
11:06 p.m.
woodelf wrote:
You *can* write a good compiler for bytecode. It just takes a bit more
effort.
Peace... Sridhar
Exactly.
JIT-optimizing processor.
That may run fast but does the byte code compiler produce
good code?
I get get the impression that you often have 1 pass compilers
like Pascal or Tiny C that produce byte code style source
at the expense of better code. 
11:59 p.m.
On 16 Jul 2007 at 23:06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
You *can* write a good compiler for bytecode. It just
takes a bit more
effort.
When the target machine needs a lot of subroutine calls to handle the
elements of a language, then the difference between bytecode and
native code gets very small. For example, there's not a lot of
performance difference between compiled to native code BASIC and
bytecode-compiled BASIC. Easily swamped out by a clever runtime
optimization or two. I've seen it done, much to my glee.
On the other hand, FORTRAN optimized and compiled to native code on
an AMD64 platform would probably smoke bytecode-compiled FORTRAN on
the same platform something awful.
Prolog or SIMSCRIPT might be a different situation.
Cheers,
Chuck
17 Jul
17 Jul
8:54 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer
Seen on ebay this morning ..... Item number: 270146028394
1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer, Nixie Tube Era
Uses NE-2 Decade Counters & a Telephone Dial for Input!
$20 with shipping may be a bit much but it sounds like a fun project ....
The other Bob
10:54 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Bob Bradlee wrote:
Seen on ebay this morning ..... Item number:
270146028394
1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer, Nixie Tube Era
Uses NE-2 Decade Counters & a Telephone Dial for Input!
$20 with shipping may be a bit much but it sounds like a fun project ....
The other Bob
I have a scan of this article up on my site at:
http://www.dvq.com/info/neon_bulb_computer_ei_11_66.pdf
It relies on matching the neon bulbs.
Bob
11:24 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:54:49 -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
Bob Bradlee wrote:
> Seen on ebay this morning ..... Item number: 270146028394
>
> 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer, Nixie Tube Era
> Uses NE-2 Decade Counters & a Telephone Dial for Input!
>
> $20 with shipping may be a bit much but it sounds like a fun project ....
>
> The other Bob
>
>
I have a scan of this article up on my site at:
It relies on matching the neon bulbs.
And never dialing Zero!
otherwise an operator error will occure :)
Thanks for the PDF ...
Bob
2:22 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Bob Bradlee wrote:
And never dialing Zero!
otherwise an operator error will occure :)
Drat... I can't get all the parts.
:)
Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I got the
phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have.
The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have
a built in resistor.
2:50 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - parts
woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: Bob Bradlee wrote:
And never dialing Zero!
otherwise an operator error will occure :)
Drat... I can't get all the parts.
:)
Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I got the
phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have.
The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have
a built in resistor.
I have bought both rotary phone dials and neon bulbs on ebay.
The phone dials are up there all the time, usually with the phones. Quantities of the neon
bulbs also show up.
Bob
5:26 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - parts
Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
I have bought both rotary phone dials and neon bulbs
on ebay.
The phone dials are up there all the time, usually with the phones. Quantities of the
neon bulbs also show up.
I can't use e-bay since I forgot my password. Funny how all the sleazy people
can use my email from with it for scamming.
Bob
3:02 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, woodelf wrote:
Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I
got the
phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have.
http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/m1511.html
$5.50, NIB.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
18 Jul
18 Jul
8:45 p.m.
New subject: 2901 OT
Does anyone have the datasheets on the AMD 2901 bit slice?
I have the data sheet on the 2901A/2901B/, but it would be nice to have
some timings from the 2901.
Set up time A,B source : TpwL+?ns
Delay time from A,B reg to ~G,~P : ?ns
Delay time from Cn to Cn+4 : ?ns
Thank you even if I get no response.
Ben alias Woodelf.
19 Jul
19 Jul
11:31 a.m.
New subject: 2901 OT
I have the databook at home somewhere. will look it up and get back to you
Dave Caroline
On 7/19/07, woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
Does anyone have the datasheets on the AMD 2901 bit
slice?
I have the data sheet on the 2901A/2901B/, but it would be nice to have
some timings from the 2901.
Set up time A,B source : TpwL+?ns
Delay time from A,B reg to ~G,~P : ?ns
Delay time from Cn to Cn+4 : ?ns
Thank you even if I get no response.
Ben alias Woodelf.
17 Jul
17 Jul
4:05 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On 17 Jul 2007 at 12:22, woodelf wrote:
Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... If I
got the
phone with a dial it would work better than the $10 one I have.
The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days have
a built in resistor.
Golly, the phone in my shop is the original WE real-bell-with-rotary-
dial wall model. Stick around long enough and everything you own
will become an antique... ;-)
Cheers,
Chuck
5:16 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Golly, the phone in my shop is the original WE
real-bell-with-rotary-
dial wall model. Stick around long enough and everything you own
will become an antique... ;-)
I have that problem whenever I go to museums of household
appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of
thsose" '-)
-tony
5:39 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Tony Duell wrote:
I have that problem whenever I go to museums of
household
appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of
thsose" '-)
Chuckling to self ... I don't have to have a phone with a crank
to call you ; do I?
-tony
PS. I all know about you is that you have
some sort of email access. :)
18 Jul
18 Jul
6:25 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Tony Duell wrote:
No, I'm on a CB/CBS (Central Battery / Central Battery Signalling)
exchange :-)...
On the other hand I do have a Linesmans Set with a transistorised
oscillator (runs off 3 D cells inside) that does the job of said magneto :-)
I have that problem whenever I go to museums of
household
appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of
thsose" '-)
Chuckling to self ... I don't have to have a phone with a crank
to call you ; do I? -tony
PS. I all know about you is that you
have some sort of email access. :) 
17 Jul
17 Jul
5:48 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote:
I have that problem whenever I go to museums of
household
appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of
thsose" '-)
"I've been thinking of replacing my old one with one like that"
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:23 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote:
"Oh, so *that's* what it's supposed to look like"
(I'm never too bothered if my tools are a little battered, providing I keep
the raw function in good shape)
I have that problem whenever I go to museums of
household
appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of
thsose" '-)
"I've been thinking of replacing my old one with one like that"
10:35 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
>> I have that problem whenever I go to museums
of household
>> appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of
>> thsose" '-)
> "I've been thinking of replacing my old one with one like that"
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Jules Richardson wrote:
"Oh, so *that's* what it's supposed to
look like"
(I'm never too bothered if my tools are a little battered, providing I keep
the raw function in good shape)
My tools haven't much over the years.
I was thinking a little more of that "household appliances" - blenders,
waffle irons, toasters, etc.
I never had any trouble with toasters with fold down sides, not even the
new-fangled electric ones. But ever since I replaced mine with ones with
slots that "pop-up", I've never had good control of toasting, nor
reliable operation. Some of them have a "bagel" option for less toasting
on one side than the other, but they don't give me control of the ratio
unless I eject manually and override the controls.
Yes, I was VERY unimpressed with the early Macintosh credo
of "a computer should be as easy to use as a toaster".
(and the first day that I had one, I put a "panic" button on a piece of
drill stock for disk ejection)
Some years ago, I replaced all of my rotary phones, because of the
prevalence of "voice mazes". I've got a Uniden cordless that works well
for me, but I've never found a cellphone with comparable sound quality.
I never had a carbureted engine that I didn't convert from automatic to
manual choke. But, I gave up on that 20 years ago, with electronic fool
injection. And it has been 30 years since I last used a crank to start a
car engine (2180cc VW with Botch fool injection - too much voltage drop
for the "brain" when using the starter motor)
Sometimes I think that modern product engineering just doesn't have
somebody like me in mind.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On 17 Jul 2007 at 19:35, Fred Cisin wrote:
Sometimes I think that modern product engineering just
doesn't have
somebody like me in mind.
Well, they don't. It sometimes seems like there isn't a modern
appliance made that is meant to be repaired.
<rant>
I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own
a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that
was manufactured over 10 years ago? When I first saw a dishwasher
with computerized control, my reaction was "What a damned fool thing
to do--put a computer in the absolutely worst (hot water, caustics,
steam) environment possible. Now you can't buy them any other way.
10 years ago, I repaired my TV by replacing a shorted disc cap. Last
week, I made the second electronic repair (severe pincoushion effect)
by replacing a weak electrolytic with another than was scavenged from
a piece of gear made 20 years ago. Works just fine--survived the
Loma Prieta quake; bounced off the table to the floor; cracked the
bezel (Bondo and spray paint) but worked otherwise. Heaven knows if
I'd be able to deal with a modern set.
</rant>
Has anyone noticed the large number of CRT monitors appearing on the
giveaway lists? I wonder if that's not a mistake. Folks are trying
to avoid the $15 disposal fee.
Cheers,
Chuck
18 Jul
18 Jul
12:39 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at
sydex.com>
---snip---
Has anyone noticed the large number of CRT monitors appearing on the
giveaway lists? I wonder if that's not a mistake. Folks are trying
to avoid the $15 disposal fee.
Cheers,
Chuck
Hi Chuck
Last time I went to the dump, I didn't have to pay the $15 anymore.
They told me I could bring 2 CRT's in without having to pay. They said that
when people buy new ones, they charge a disposal fee, like they do
on tires now.
They did this because there was too much dumping along the roads.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
4:41 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Chuck Guzis wrote:
<rant>
I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own
a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that
was manufactured over 10 years ago?
Aside from the longevity, my big gripe there is the step backwards in the UI -
lots of modern washers seem to just have a few little LEDs to give a basic
indication of what they're up to. Back in the days of timers, you could see
exactly what was going on and how long things had left to run - but now such
functionality seems to be treated as a luxury item and only comes on the more
expensive models.
10 years ago, I repaired my TV by replacing a shorted
disc cap.
Mine's horrible - it spends about 50% of its life in a failure mode where
response from the remote goes really sluggish and the sound cuts out with just
the occasional faint buzzing noise. It's a mass of microprocessors and big
custom chips inside though, so other than the obvious checks for bad joints
and flakey caps there's been nothing I can do with it.
It's times like that when I really start cursing the "progress" that
computers
have brought :-(
Has anyone noticed the large number of CRT monitors
appearing on the
giveaway lists? I wonder if that's not a mistake.
Yeah, lots of them this side of the pond too. I still find a CRT far nicer to
work with than an LCD though - probably because a CRT gives more of an
aliasing effect that looks more "natural" than the crisp jaggedness of an LCD
display. Although the modern way seems to be to have as crisp an LCD as
possible, then compensate by requiring masses of video memory, a fast CPU, and
aliasing everything in software ;)
The display on the PC is sadly a 19" LCD since the 21" Iiyama I had went bang
(LOPT death) - I'm keeping an eye out for another big CRT though (plus there
was a nice wide expanse of space above the face of the CRT which was very
useful for perching 'pending' papers on top of - my desk's a lot messier since
the LCD came along :-)
cheers
Jules
9:08 a.m.
New subject: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available]
At 10:00 PM 7/17/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Has anyone noticed the large number of CRT monitors
appearing on the
giveaway lists? I wonder if that's not a mistake. Folks are trying
to avoid the $15 disposal fee.
It isn't if you need yet another PC-oriented monitor.
It certainly is if you have equipment that likes a video scan mode
that isn't supported by today's LCDs. As I'm sure you imply,
not all CRTs were the same when it came to various sync and
scan modes. I have a great Sony broadcast industry TV resting
in the basement that I'd like to resurrect someday because it
handled so many signal types.
A similar problem extends back into the RS-170 composite-mode
era of home computers. Devices from 20 years ago tossed out
all sorts of approximations of "composite mono video" and
older TVs might handle it better than newer TVs with
less forgiving circuitry.
I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day. Plug it in
as a pass-through with two VGA 15-pin connectors so I watch
the video. Press a button, capture the image as a bitmap for me.
Has a USB plug so I can fetch it with another computer. This would
be great for recording text-mode screens as well as other VGA-mode
error messages. I'm tired of transcribing them. It wouldn't
be hard for this device to decipher which video mode
(rez, scan rate, etc.) was being shown and display it on
a little LCD. With a few adapters, it could handle non-VGA-ish signals.
- John
11:59 a.m.
New subject: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available]
On 7/18/07, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
It certainly is if you have equipment that likes a
video scan mode
that isn't supported by today's LCDs...
A similar problem extends back into the RS-170 composite-mode
era of home computers. Devices from 20 years ago tossed out
all sorts of approximations of "composite mono video" and
older TVs might handle it better than newer TVs with
less forgiving circuitry.
I have had that specific problem with RCA 1861 "Pixie" graphics - I
can get viewable images on 1970s-era CRTs and TVs with no problem, but
I could not, for example, get a stable picture with an Apple 5" CRT
(used with the Apple IIc line), or a DEC VR201 (+12VDC/RS170 mono
monitor for Rainbow, DECmate, Professional, etc.) nor any sort of
recently-manufactured TV or LCD. Depending on the exact output device
in question, either I see pixels but can't get a frame to properly
lock, or I don't see anything at all.
I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day. Plug
it in
as a pass-through with two VGA 15-pin connectors so I watch
the video. Press a button, capture the image as a bitmap for me.
Has a USB plug so I can fetch it with another computer.
Hmm... interesting thought.
For my Pixie problem I had been looking at a 4066-based circuit from
Don Lancaster's "CMOS Cookbook" - from memory, you run the 4066 off of
+5V and -5V rails, then hook your Hsync, Vsync, and video outputs to
three of the switch enable inputs to the 4066. The 4066, in effect,
synthesizes a "proper" RS170 signal from various appropriate voltage
levels rather than the standard Pixie technique of summing those
signals through resistors and letting the CRT sort it out.
One of the things I'm not sure about is if a device of this sort would
need an isolated +5V supply to work or not. I can use my Spare Time
Gizmos STG1861 Pixie emulator (
http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K_Accessories.htm ),
populated with modern parts, so I don't have to risk a real CDP1861 if
I screw something up.
At the very least, I think I could breadboard a 4066 as described in
the CMOS Cookbook, then get -5V from an ICL7660 (I have a few lying
around, and it's still available as a MAX7660). I could also be
paranoid and use a 4050 as a buffer/level shifter between the Elf and
the 4066, but that might not be required.
Comments?
-ethan
6:53 p.m.
New subject: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available]
--- John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
scan modes. I have a great Sony broadcast industry
TV resting
in the basement that I'd like to resurrect someday
because it
handled so many signal types.
Analog as well as digital (RGBI) signals?
A similar problem extends back into the RS-170
composite-mode
era of home computers. Devices from 20 years ago
tossed out
all sorts of approximations of "composite mono
video" and
older TVs might handle it better than newer TVs with
less forgiving circuitry.
Yeah like that shoddy method of generating the "back
porch". You got to watch for that one ;)
I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day.
Plug it in
as a pass-through with two VGA 15-pin connectors so
I watch
the video. Press a button, capture the image as a
bitmap for me.
Has a USB plug so I can fetch it with another
computer. This would
be great for recording text-mode screens as well as
other VGA-mode
error messages. I'm tired of transcribing them. It
wouldn't
be hard for this device to decipher which video mode
(rez, scan rate, etc.) was being shown and display
it on
a little LCD. With a few adapters, it could handle
non-VGA-ish signals.
Interesting. Along similar lines if the Windows
clipboard thing allowed you to capture multiple screen
shots or portions of text, and insert the one you
choose, it would be a boon.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
11:01 p.m.
New subject: VGA Capture
Subject line was out of control at:
Re: CRTs, LCDs and image capture [was 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb
Computer - scan available]
On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 08:08 -0500, John Foust wrote:
I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other day. Plug
it in
as a pass-through with two VGA 15-pin connectors so I watch
the video. Press a button, capture the image as a bitmap for me.
This sounds like a VGA version of the Snappy, a device by Play,
which captures stills from composite video, and connects to a PC via a
bi-directional parallel port. Those can be had for about $13, since
Play folded. I have one, and have found it useful.
Peace,
Warren E. Wolfe
wizard at voyager.net
19 Jul
19 Jul
12:17 p.m.
New subject: VGA Capture
On 7/18/07, Warren Wolfe <wizard at voyager.net> wrote:
On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 08:08 -0500, John Foust wrote:
I used a Snappy about 10 years ago... I recall it worked well.
I daydreamed about a little gizmo the other
day..
...Press a button, capture the image as a bitmap for me.
This sounds like a VGA version of the Snappy, a device by Play,
which captures stills from composite video, and connects to a PC via a
bi-directional parallel port. Those can be had for about $13, since
Play folded. I have one, and have found it useful.
Handy to know. I didn't realize they were so cheap now.
-ethan
12:40 p.m.
New subject: VGA Capture
At 10:01 PM 7/18/2007, Warren Wolfe wrote:
This sounds like a VGA version of the Snappy, a
device by Play,
which captures stills from composite video, and connects to a PC via a
bi-directional parallel port.
Yes, I'm quite familiar with the Snappy and I own several,
having once been well-connected with NewTek and Play.
Of course, if pixel-perfect accuracy isn't required, a digital
camera might do the trick, except for random sync bars.
I would think someone must've made a device like this for
the documentation industry. There are moments when software-based
screen capture tricks don't cut it.
I have a few video printers that accept composite and print
on thermal paper.
- John
18 Jul
18 Jul
6:54 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
<rant>
I'll make this vintage computer-oriented. How many people still own
a working dishwasher/clothes washer with an integral computer that
was manufactured over 10 years ago? When I first saw a dishwasher
with computerized control, my reaction was "What a damned fool thing
to do--put a computer in the absolutely worst (hot water, caustics,
steam) environment possible. Now you can't buy them any other way.
I think my parents bought some of the last electormechanically-controlled
models made..
You can see the manufacturer's point. A custom chip is a lot cheaper to
make than a cam-and-contacts timer. They can put the magic words
'computer', 'microprocessor',. 'digital', etc on the panel. And
it's
harder to repair if it fails (if a mechanical timer fails, you can fix
it, if the microprocessor fails, you have to buy a new PCB from the
manufacturers, if they don't want to sell you one, you're stuffed).
But now do you see why I stick to the old stuff...
-tony
3:12 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 19:35 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
I never had a carbureted engine that I didn't
convert from automatic to
manual choke. But, I gave up on that 20 years ago, with electronic fool
injection. And it has been 30 years since I last used a crank to start a
car engine (2180cc VW with Botch fool injection - too much voltage drop
for the "brain" when using the starter motor)
Hugely off-topic, but it's funny you should mention that... I just
handle-started something for the first time in about four years - my
mate's Landrover Series 3 had just about enough in the battery for the
ignition, but not the starter. Prior to that I'd handle-started my 1983
Citro?n GSA when we had a very severe winter. Nearly every morning it
was the only car on the street that started first time, thanks to the
Mk.1 Armstrong starter.
There's a knack to it...
Gordon
19 Jul
19 Jul
3:05 p.m.
New subject: OT: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
Hugely off-topic, but it's funny you should
mention that... I just
handle-started something for the first time in about four years - my
mate's Landrover Series 3 had just about enough in the battery for the
ignition, but not the starter.
Many VW type 3's endured monstrous unnecessary "repairs" involving
replacing the processor, due to misdiagnosis of situations where they
would crank, but voltage fell below the required threshold.
A classmate of mine got a 3 year old one for $200 due to a bad cell in the
battery.
There's a knack to it...
The death of Byron Carter is widely accepted as being the inspiration for
Kettering's development of the starter motor
18 Jul
18 Jul
4:27 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Fred Cisin wrote:
I never had any trouble with toasters with fold down
sides, not even the
new-fangled electric ones. But ever since I replaced mine with ones with
slots that "pop-up", I've never had good control of toasting, nor
reliable operation.
When I'm not in a rush, I tend to use a fork and hold the bread over the
burner on the stove - no even toasting there, but somehow it just tastes so
much nicer than any toaster I've yet come across.
Yes, I was VERY unimpressed with the early Macintosh
credo
of "a computer should be as easy to use as a toaster".
Self-contained solutions are great when:
1) The system's reliable and bug-free,
2) The user never wants to expand the system beyond what the designers envisaged.
Sadly I've never come across a system which meets those criteria.
Some years ago, I replaced all of my rotary phones,
because of the
prevalence of "voice mazes". I've got a Uniden cordless that works well
for me, but I've never found a cellphone with comparable sound quality.
The one next to me here is a rotary (1967 I think, a GPO 706) - when I get
time it'll be replaced by my 1940's one (a 162), but as I need to wire up a
separate bell set for that one it's one of those things I never quite seem to
get around to!
Sometimes I think that modern product engineering just
doesn't have
somebody like me in mind.
Personally I think it just doesn't have human nature in mind. People are
always going to want to use systems in ways that the designers didn't intend.
The trick I think is to make these things *possible*, but not at the expense
of piling in lots of functionality and features from the outset (with all the
extra cost, complexity, and risk of bugs creeping in when comes from that).
Keep it simple, keep it 'open' (to use a modern term), and acknowledge that
people are going to want to hack, kludge and expand in ways that you never
thought of. That's where a good product lies, not with something that tries to
be all things to all people and ends up doing none of them well.
To bring this back on topic, look at vintage micros - the most successful ones
were always the ones where people could modify them and add bits on to suit
their own personal needs.
cheers
Jules
20 Jul
20 Jul
8:02 p.m.
New subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....)
Hi,
The one next to me here is a rotary (1967 I think, a
GPO 706) - when
I get time it'll be replaced by my 1940's one (a 162)....
Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know where I could find a
schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model
rather than the rotary dial model).
One of mine got "zapped" during a thunderstorm and now crackles very quietly
instead of "chirping" when it rings.... :-(
TTFN - Pete.
8:14 p.m.
New subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....)
On 21 Jul 2007 at 1:02, Ensor wrote:
Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know
where I could find a
schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model
rather than the rotary dial model).
"Trimline?" Hmmm, mine's later than 1970--probably 1980-ish and it's
got a standard bell ringer in it. So there must be several different
versions.
Cheers,
Chuck
8:26 p.m.
New subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....)
On 7/20/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 21 Jul 2007 at 1:02, Ensor wrote:
I thought Trimline at first, but I see Pete's in the UK. Was there a
"Trimphone" model over there? I know my Trimline never "chirps," it
RINGS!
This site:
http://telephonecollectors.org/library
has docs for many of the older phones out there, though apparently not
the Trimline. If that is indeed what Pete has, I may have the
schematics in my pile of Bell BSP books. Let me know if you want me
to look for them.
j
Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know
where I could find a
schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model
rather than the rotary dial model).
"Trimline?" Hmmm, mine's later than 1970--probably 1980-ish and it's
got a standard bell ringer in it. So there must be several different
versions.
9:06 p.m.
New subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....)
On 20 Jul 2007 at 19:26, Jason T wrote:
I thought Trimline at first, but I see Pete's in
the UK. Was there a
"Trimphone" model over there? I know my Trimline never "chirps," it
RINGS!
Nope, it's "Trimphone"--see:
http://www.robertopiecollection.com/Application/Products/Teleph/Trimph
ones-GB.asp
Very odd-looking beast when compared to the Trimline.
Cheers,
Chuck
23 Jul
23 Jul
12:39 a.m.
New subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....)
Hi,
Nope, it's "Trimphone"--see:
Very odd-looking beast when compared to the Trimline.
Yep, that's the one....sort of reminds me of a block of cheese.... :-)
I should have been a bit more specific in my original posting and called it
a "GPO Trimphone" (or "BT Trimphone"?).
What I *really* like about them is the ringer. Rather than a bell they have
an electronic ringer which, well, kind of, sort of, chirps....the sound is
very difficult to describe, but unforgettable once you've heard it once (as
heard in many British 70's TV shows and SCI-FI films - not to mention the
odd Monty Python sketch).
TTFN - Pete.
5:45 p.m.
New subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....)
I should have been a bit more specific in my original
posting and called it
a "GPO Trimphone" (or "BT Trimphone"?).
I did a bit of poking around for you, and I've found the numbers of the
N-diagrams that seem to apply.
N886 is the diagram for the wired-in version, N8886 is for the plug-in
(both for DTMF models).
You can get said diagrams from
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/n_diagrams/
As expected, while you get an overall schematics of the phone, there are
no internal schematics for the dialer (keypad/DTMF econder) or ringer.
May be some help, though.
-tony
21 Jul
21 Jul
9:16 a.m.
New subject: OT: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....)
Ensor wrote:
Hi,
Afraid not - the old Freshwater site now at http://www.britishtelephones.com
(probably of interest to several here!) is the usual resource, but it doesn't
seem to have a schematic for the DTMF Trimphone :(
You could try uk.telecom - there are still a few old-timers there and someone
might know. I suspect that the data was never released as those phones weren't
supposed to be field repairable at that level :(
cheers
Jules
The one next to me here is a rotary (1967 I
think, a GPO 706) - when
I get time it'll be replaced by my 1940's one (a 162)....
Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know where I could find a
schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model
rather than the rotary dial model).
4:43 p.m.
New subject: Classic phone repair (was Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2....)
Hi,
Are you sure it's DTMF? Most GPO 'phones were pulse-dialing, even if they
had a keypad. GPO exchanges didn't eespond ot DTMF signals AFAIK.
There may have neen an N-diagram for it (there's an archive of these on
the web -- do a google search for 'N-diagram'). If you know the GPO
number for the 'phone (like the '706' that Jules mentioned the other
day), the N-diagram number is 100 more than the telephone type number --
so the schematic for a 706 is in N-dagram 806.
However, N-diagrams do not contain internal schematics of modules, like
the dialer or the ringer. There was, AFAIK, no field repair of PCBs.
The one next to me here is a rotary (1967 I
think, a GPO 706) - when
I get time it'll be replaced by my 1940's one (a 162)....
Just as an aside, you wouldn't happen to know where I could find a
schematic, or service manual, for a 1970's "Trimphone" (the DTMF model
rather than the rotary dial model). One of mine got "zapped" during a
thunderstorm and now crackles very quietly
instead of "chirping" when it rings.... :-(
I didn't think the ringer was that complicatated. Can't you trace out the
schematic?
-tony
18 Jul
18 Jul
6:46 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
"Oh, so
*that's* what it's supposed to look like"
(I'm never too bothered if my tools are a little battered, providing I keep
the raw function in good shape)
My tools haven't much over the years.
I was thinking a little more of that "household appliances" - blenders,
waffle irons, toasters, etc.
I never had any trouble with toasters with fold down sides, not even the
new-fangled electric ones. But ever since I replaced mine with ones with
slots that "pop-up", I've never had good control of toasting, nor
At one times toasters had elements wound with a non-constnnt pitch, the
turns further apart at the top. The idea was that since hot air rises,
doing that would give a more even heat distribution and more even
toasting. Alas, since they were more expensive to make, they don't do
that any more :-(
Yes, I was VERY unimpressed with the early Macintosh
credo
of "a computer should be as easy to use as a toaster".
(and the first day that I had one, I put a "panic" button on a piece of
drill stock for disk ejection)
I objected to the entire Macintosh philosopy. Any company that thinks it
knows what I want, and has the arogoance to tell me I don't need to (and
can't) do things any other way is plain WRONG!
Nearly always when I buy someting it is with the intention of modifying
it. Companies I like to deal with appreciate this and design their
products to be modified, to have bits added on, and so on...
Sometimes I think that modern product engineering just
doesn't have
somebody like me in mind.
Nor me... They stopped having me in mind when they stopped putting
schematics in the user manual, when cars stopped coming with _useful_
handbooks (at the very least I expect a wiring diagram and torque
settings for the important engine bolts) and so on.
-tony
6:27 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote:
Well, several times I've said 'That's modern, I've got the previosu model
still in use'. And no, I won't sell it...
I rememeber once seeing a mock-up of a watchmaker's shop in a museum in
the timekeeping seciton. I think I had every single tool displayed on
that bench at home -- not just similar tools, but absolutely identcial
ones. And yse, I do still use them.
-tony
I have that problem whenever I go to museums of
household
appliances/tools/etc. My genreal though it "I'm still using one of
thsose" '-)
"I've been thinking of replacing my old one with one like that"
17 Jul
17 Jul
5:56 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:22 PM, woodelf wrote:
A surplus dealer was mentioned on this list (I think) several
weeks ago that had brand new telephone dials.
And never
dialing Zero! otherwise an operator error will occure :)
Drat... I can't get
all the parts. :)
Where do you get a telephone dial now days ... The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days
have
a built in resistor.
Hard to find?? Not even close. I bought a bag of them a year or
so ago on eBay, brand new...the seller had a HUGE quantity of them,
he probably still has more. I think I paid $5.00 for 75 of them.
Standard NE-2 series neon lamps are even available from regular
component distributors like Mouser Electronics.
None of these have built-in resistors by the way.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
6:07 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Dave McGuire wrote:
Standard NE-2 series neon lamps are even available
from regular
component distributors like Mouser Electronics.
Well send me $100 and I'll send you $10 :)
It may take a few more years for me to get time to build it how ever.)
None of these have built-in resistors by the way.
-Dave
6:40 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:22 PM, woodelf wrote:
The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now days
have
a built in resistor.
The world's largest manufacturer of neon bulbs is in the PRC and
they'll be delighted to send you a containerload of any variety of
NE2 that you'd like in anything from normal to super brightness, as
well as in a variety of colors. There's no shortage of these things.
Cheers,
Chuck
6:58 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:40:29 -0700
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
I think I just found their website whilst noodling around. They can make 2.5
million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs.
Thats a lot of blinky lights...
Peter Wallace
On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:22 PM, woodelf wrote:
The neon bulbs may be hard to find , the ones now
days have
a built in resistor.
The world's largest manufacturer of neon bulbs is in the PRC and
they'll be delighted to send you a containerload of any variety of
NE2 that you'd like in anything from normal to super brightness, as
well as in a variety of colors. There's no shortage of these things.
Cheers,
Chuck
8:19 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On 17 Jul 2007 at 15:58, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
I think I just found their website whilst noodling
around. They can make 2.5
million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs.
Thats a lot of blinky lights...
Ah, but think of the quantity discount! ;-)
Cheers,
Chuck
18 Jul
18 Jul
1:50 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Peter C. Wallace wrote:
I think I just found their website whilst noodling
around. They can make
2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs.
I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966 computer. :)
I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size.
Thats a lot of blinky lights...
Peter Wallace
PS. One can get them built to the proper specs for switching I would guess.
1:54 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Jul 18, 2007, at 1:50 AM, woodelf wrote:
I'd bet it'd be a fraction of that price, based on the fact that
Mouser Electronics sells NE-2E bulbs for $0.34/ea in single-unit
quantities.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I think I just
found their website whilst noodling around. They
can make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs.
I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966
computer. :)
I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. 
3:19 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
woodelf schrieb:
Peter C. Wallace wrote:
www.farnell.com, a
larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece
(11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will
probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966...
Admittedly, they have prices as in brothels.
--
Holger
I think I just found their website whilst
noodling around. They can
make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs.
I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966
computer. :)
I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. 
19 Jul
19 Jul
12:56 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On 18/07/07, Holger Veit <holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
lol.
Not sure if these are ne-2, but Rapid have neons at 12p each ($0.24)
or 3.4p ($0.07) each for 1000+ and they give some tech info on them
too.
http://www.rapidonline.com/searchresults.aspx?style=0&kw=42-0300
That should be cheap enough..
I am guessing
$.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size.
www.farnell.com, a larger
distributor, offers them for 15? per piece
(11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will
probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966...
Admittedly, they have prices as in brothels.
2:43 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
Holger Veit wrote:
Admittedly, they have prices as in brothels.
How
would one know, Brothels(1) don't realy adverize
that often. :)
Oddly most of the projects I have built seem to cost
about the same amount as the original product in terms
of monetary value.
(1).Tip - Bring your own condom if sounds too good to be true.
7:06 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 09:19 +0200, Holger Veit wrote:
woodelf schrieb:
That can't be right, 15EUR for a single neon bulb?
Gordon
Peter C. Wallace wrote:
www.farnell.com, a
larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece
(11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will
probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966... I think I just found their website whilst
noodling around. They can
make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs.
I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966
computer. :)
I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. 
20 Jul
20 Jul
2:26 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Thursday 19 July 2007 19:06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 09:19 +0200, Holger Veit wrote:
Try pricing some of the other numbers some time...
I had a reel-to-reel tape deck years ago that had a couple of NE45 bulbs in it
for level indicators. Nifty looking electrodes in that bulb, but the price?
Yikes!
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
woodelf schrieb:
That can't be right, 15EUR for a single neon bulb?
Gordon Peter C. Wallace wrote:
www.farnell.com, a larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece
(11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will
probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966... I think I just found their website whilst
noodling around. They can
make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs.
I wonder if there are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966
computer. :)
I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size. 
3:11 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On 20/07/2007 00:06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 09:19 +0200, Holger Veit wrote:
?6.15, it tells me on the website -- but it also says it is no longer
stocked, and it was old Newark stock held in the US. If you look for
other neons on the Farnell websites, especially T2 size (which is what
that part was) they vary in price from 9 pence (?0.09) to about 40 pence
each.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
woodelf schrieb:
That can't be right, 15EUR for a single neon bulb? Peter C. Wallace wrote:
www.farnell.com, a
larger distributor, offers them for 15? per piece
(11,20? per piece for 100), so costs for a "new" 1966 computer will
probably be today in the range of what was was paid for it in 1966... I think I just found their website whilst
noodling around. They can
make 2.5 million NE-2's a day, minimum order is 100K bulbs.
I wonder if there
are 1000 on this list that want a *New* 1966
computer. :)
I am guessing $.50 each so $500K is a reasonable order size.
10:42 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On 7/20/07, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
?6.15, it tells me on the website -- but it also says
it is no longer
stocked, and it was old Newark stock held in the US. If you look for
other neons on the Farnell websites, especially T2 size (which is what
that part was) they vary in price from 9 pence (?0.09) to about 40 pence
each.
So what was it about that _particular_ part that resulted in a ?6
price? I've seen inventory creep on DEC parts that were old at the
time - case in point - the left and right tape guides for the TU56
DECtape transport were listed as spares at many times what might be
expected as a reasonable price for a componentless hunk of polished
metal. When I asked about it, I was told that they probably hadn't
sold any in years, but they were still on the book and most likely
still taking up shelf space in the warehouse. Every year, I was told,
they'd inventory them, then review the price, which trended upwards by
some magic formula to fold in inflation and some fraction of the cost
of the warehouse for "storage" of the parts. After ten years of this,
the price was absurd (don't recall exact amounts), but there it was.
Could this be a similar case? A particular part number in their
database that gets annually reevaluated until it's nearly two orders
of magnitude higher than equivalent parts?
-ethan
11:06 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On 20/07/2007 15:42, Ethan Dicks wrote:
So what was it about that _particular_ part that
resulted in a ?6
price? I've seen inventory creep on DEC parts that were old at the
time
Could this be a similar case? A particular part
number in their
database that gets annually reevaluated until it's nearly two orders
of magnitude higher than equivalent parts?
I wouldn't be surprised, but I've no way of knowing.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
17 Jul
17 Jul
11:26 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
It relies on matching the neon bulbs.
Ha! Matched for how long? After a month, I bet no two matched ones are
matched anymore!
At least the little voltage regulator tubes (0D3 and friends) age better.
--
Will
11:40 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
William Donzelli wrote:
At least the little voltage regulator tubes (0D3 and
friends) age better.
They need I think about 100 hours to burn in.I suspect neon
tubes would do
the same.I expect a un-reglated power supply could be a huge problem with
a Ne-2 bulb computer.
--
Will
2:41 p.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
They need I think about 100 hours to burn in.I suspect
neon tubes would do
the same.
Any "burn in" of gas tubes or neons is done before the tubes leave the
factory. It is all downhill from there. The NE-2s, downhill is steep.
--
Will
18 Jul
18 Jul
10:12 a.m.
New subject: 1966 Mag: Build NE-2 Neon Bulb Computer - scan available
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 14:41, William Donzelli wrote:
I seem to remember some project or other in electronic magazines back when
talking about doing just that, though...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
They need I
think about 100 hours to burn in.I suspect neon tubes would
do the same.
Any "burn in" of gas tubes or neons is done before the tubes leave the
factory. It is all downhill from there. The NE-2s, downhill is steep.
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