23 Mar
1999
23 Mar
'99
7:39 p.m.
Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386
portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience
with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember
when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and
the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc.
I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the
power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the
whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with
the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play than
with many peripherals on Win 9x machines.
Some questions:
1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it
seems quite nice.
2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives
have to be ESDI drives?
3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with
an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run
their parts depot in Boulder for old machines?
3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at
all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were
passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS
6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine,
but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a
floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But
without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance.
Mark.
23 Mar
23 Mar
8:23 p.m.
Date sent: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:39:08 -0700
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: Mark Gregory <gregorym(a)cadvision.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions
Hi Mark!
Groan! I haven't yet found either 90 or 95!
when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly
due to high price and
the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc.
That is the time where market is driven by price and ease of
upgrades by easily available and inexpensive parts. They realize
IBM is selling decent machines but kept to be pigheaded and
attack IBM for that. :-(
Some questions:
1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it
seems quite nice.
IBM pigheaded and high royality fee for anyone to build
motherboards based on MCA bus. Actually, I find this quality and
design beauiful.
2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI
controller, or do the drives
have to be ESDI drives?
That is 95 XP, you have scsi in there by standard when system is
built. Both HD and controller card are SCSI, you can swap the
controller board for ESDI MCA adapter and a ESDI HD, or
aftermarket IDE to MCA adapter card (harder to find!)
3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board
can be replaced with
an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run
their parts depot in Boulder for old machines?
Yup, 5V only Intel or AMD DX2 66. Got cache slot there, that one
with brown connector running appox middle of the complex card?
fine, but the system won't boot from the hard
drive alone. If I boot with
a floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But
without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas?
Check that HD for active partition by that pcdos fdisk program, if
not, add then reboot. No luck? try fdisk /mbr
Thanks in advance.
Mark.
BTW, I have a PS/1 (Still decent built using parity but no cigar to
likes of the 90/95 that I'm still looking for.) And a P75 (8573-401).
Wizard
8:23 p.m.
Mark Gregory wrote:
3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at
all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were
passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS
6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine,
but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a
floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But
without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas?
It sounds like the disk was fdisked, but then the main dos partition was not
made active. A less desireable alternative is that the system tracks on the
HD are bad. You could also try "fdisk /mbr".
9:07 p.m.
On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Mark Gregory wrote:
Some questions:
1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it
seems quite nice.
Closed architecture?
2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI
controller, or do the drives
have to be ESDI drives?
And ESDI controller is for ESDI drives, just like an IDE controller is for
IDE drives.
3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board
can be replaced with
an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run
their parts depot in Boulder for old machines?
I don't see why not. There might be a clocking issue with the IBM
motherboard, i.e. it won't let you set the clock rate like on standard PC
motherboards. I wouldn't know, not being a PS/2 expert.
3) I'm having some trouble with the P70.
Originally, it wouldn't boot at
all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were
passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS
6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine,
but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a
floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But
without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas?
Did you format the disk with the "transfer system" option? That would be:
format /s c:
You can transfer the system after the fact with the following command:
sys c:
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
24 Mar
24 Mar
3:43 a.m.
At 23:39 23-03-1999 -0700, you wrote:
I was impressed with the build quality and design of
the machines (the
power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the
whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with
Yeppers. I've got a Model 85 and a 95 here.
If your M95 came with a Type 4 CPU complex, I'm really going to get
jealous! ;-)
1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user
point of view it
seems quite nice.
It was. Most folks, myself included, believe it failed because IBM wanted
to keep the patent on it and wouldn't license it for anything less than a
king's ransom to anyone else. On top of that, even after the license, they
wanted to extract royalties for every MCA-capable machine built.
The only other maker that I know of that built MCA-slot machines was NCR
with some of their larger servers.
In essence, IBM's own greed and arrogance killed MCA in the market. Had
they declared it 'open,' as ISA was, I firmly believe we'd all be MCA'ers
to this day.
2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI
controller, or do the drives
have to be ESDI drives?
No, they must be ESDI drives. The only thing ESDI has in common with
MFM/RLL is the cabling.
3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board
can be replaced with
an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run
their parts depot in Boulder for old machines?
You should be able to up it to at least a DX2-66. However, don't count on
an overdrive chip running in the thing. PS/2's are notoriously picky about
their hardware.
but the system won't boot from the hard drive
alone. If I boot with a
floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But
without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas?
I've seen behavior like that before. It usually means the hard drive is
kaput.
As it turns out, I have a spare hard drive for a P70/386 that's just
gathering dust here. Perhaps we can work a trade or a cheap sale? I promise
I won't gouge. ;-)
Another option is to install a third-party SCSI adapter, such as an
Adaptec 1640 or Future Domain card, and stick a SCSI drive in there. Bear
in mind that you'll need to do some minor mechanical surgery to the drive
bracket since the holes are non-standard spacing.
Can you tell I just went through all this? ;-) Yes, I have a nice P70
portable that has, thanks to installation of a 486 upgrade card and SCSI
adapter, been converted to be a portable testbed for SCSI devices.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
5:36 a.m.
On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote:
The only other maker that I know of that built
MCA-slot machines was NCR
with some of their larger servers.
Nope. Well before NCR licensed it, there was the Tandy 5000MC. The
first MCA machine on the market without bus-mastering crippled the
way it was on IBM's own early MCA systems. A damned fine machine
which of course sank like a stone. An uglier death than the Tandy
2000 sufferred.
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
5:55 a.m.
Ward Griffiths wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote:
> The only other maker that I know of that built
MCA-slot machines was NCR
> with some of their larger servers.
Nope. Well before NCR licensed it, there was the
Tandy 5000MC. The
first MCA machine on the market without bus-mastering crippled the
way it was on IBM's own early MCA systems. A damned fine machine
which of course sank like a stone. An uglier death than the Tandy
2000 sufferred.
I had to read your description of the Tandy's bus about three times. The
sentence is very confusing. You're saying the early IBM systems had
crippled bus matering, right? And the Tandy didn't?
And I'd like to hear more about the 2000 too. I got the impression that the
5000MC disappeared quickly and quietly; in a way that's better than a long
drawn-out death (which it sounds like the 2000 had). Do you disagree? Do I
have my facts wrong?
-- Derek
7:15 a.m.
On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote:
Ward Griffiths wrote:
It was a decision made by IBM's marketroids. I'm told the conversation
went something like this:
Engineer: (explains the concept of bus-mastering)
Marketroid: Now let me get this straight. A customer can buy a
Model 50 from us (286), then a few months later purchase a '386
card from somebody else, plug it in and he's effectively got a
Model 80?
Engineer: Yup! Ain't it cool?
Marketroid: I don't think so.
On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote:
> The only other maker that I know of that
built MCA-slot machines was NCR
> with some of their larger servers.
Nope. Well before NCR licensed it, there was the
Tandy 5000MC. The
first MCA machine on the market without bus-mastering crippled the
way it was on IBM's own early MCA systems. A damned fine machine
which of course sank like a stone. An uglier death than the Tandy
2000 sufferred.
I had to read your description of the Tandy's bus about three times. The
sentence is very confusing. You're saying the early IBM systems had
crippled bus matering, right? And the Tandy didn't? And I'd like to hear more about the 2000 too. I
got the impression that the
5000MC disappeared quickly and quietly; in a way that's better than a long
drawn-out death (which it sounds like the 2000 had). Do you disagree? Do I
have my facts wrong?
The Tandy 2000 was a machine based on an 8 Mhz 80186 cpu that came
out about a year before the IBM PC/AT. True 16-bit, better graphics
than just about anything else on the market, screamingly fast for
the time. Ran MS-DOS 2.0 to 2.11. Because the 80186 did not have
the degree of compatibility with the 8088 that the 80286 had, many
programs dependent on PC-specific memory map and hardware (i.e.
most graphics programs) didn't run, though programs that were
well-behaved, accessing the hardware through MS-DOS system calls
like everything was supposed to, ran fine. Of course, most game
and graphics programs skipped the DOS calls to get performance.
The expansion bus was proprietary, since there wasn't a "standard"
16-bit PC bus until the AT arrived on the scene.
The Tandy 2000 was also the first PC-type machine to come with 12
function keys along the top of the keyboard -- I still consider
the Tandy 2000 keyboard to be the second best ever made (after
the AT&T Unix PC keyboard).
Other features? 640x400 mono or 16-color (with optional card)
graphics. RAM to 768k. Came with dual 720k 5.25 floppies or
one floppy and 10 Mb HD.
I've got to get another one to replace the machine I left with my
ex-wife. Well, only a few weeks till the Trenton Computer
Festival, might be one there.
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
10:41 a.m.
On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote:
The only other maker that I know of that built
MCA-slot machines
was NCR with some of their larger servers.
There were a few manufacturers. The June (July?) 1989 issue of Byte (I
think it was Byte) had an overview of the then brand-new EISA bus, and
reviews of the first MCA clones. The verdict was that none were
particularly compatible. I recall Tandy made one of the clones, but
nothing about any of the other five or so they reviewed.
ok
r.
26 Mar
26 Mar
9:35 a.m.
Bruce Lane wrote:
At 23:39 23-03-1999 -0700, you wrote:
You'd really hate me then, with a 9595-OPT (Pentium 60) having 2 each 2.88mb
floppies, a 5.25" floppy and 4 2.5gb SCSI drives on the included F/W host adapter,
two Adaptec SCSI adapters for the 8 external cdroms and 2 external hard drives, sound
card, IBM Image Adapter/A and networked on a 3Com 32bit 10base2 card and having 3
printer ports and 2 serials, on top of an enternal 56k modem along with the original
keyboard and mouse. I have it hooked to a 15" autosync NEC monitor . That' my
"file
server". I use one of two Dell 4066/XE servers 5x86 upgrades and RAID contolllers
and
EISA for internet and other "utilty" functions.
That reminds me, I have 3 8595 servers of varying 486DX levels I really should sell,
or trade for a couple large capacity SCSI hard drives. I think one is a 25mhz,
another is a 33 and another at DX2-50. I also have a half dozen 8590's I still need
to check into as well.
I was impressed with the build quality and design
of the machines (the
power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the
whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with
Yeppers. I've got a Model 85 and a 95 here.
If your M95 came with a Type 4 CPU complex, I'm really going to get
jealous! ;-) The only other maker that I know of that built
MCA-slot machines was NCR
with some of their larger servers.
There were a few others but the exact ones escape me (as well as my own name) right
now.
24 Mar
24 Mar
4:54 a.m.
On 23 Mar 99 at 23:39, Mark Gregory wrote:
Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2
machines: a PS/2 P70 386
portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience
with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember
when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and
the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc.
I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the
power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the
whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with
the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play than
with many peripherals on Win 9x machines.
The PS/2 is one of the lines I collect. They were a remarkable machine.
Unfortunately IBM goofed in charging exhorbitant liscensing fees for the
MCA which gave birth to the EISA consortium. I have an 8530 (XT model),
8557 (386,SCSI and fast UART), 8560 (tower 286), 8570-A21 (386, my fastest
at 25mhz with coprocesser and cache) , 8580 (386, introduced PS/2 MCA line
and VGA (on planar), tower, built like a tank-my favorite) and several spares.
Want a P70 and 95 to fill out the line.
MCA was PnP before it became a "feature" The major drawback is the
availability and price of the cards. Virtually all the PS/2s were easily
disassembled.
Some questions:
1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it
seems quite nice.
MCA, EISA, and the price. The 8580 sold for $10,000 bare. It's still used
quite
extensively in the corporate world tho.
2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI
controller, or do the drives
have to be ESDI drives?
As others have mentioned ESDI is ESDI, but cards are available for IDE or
SCSI.
3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board
can be replaced with
an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run
their parts depot in Boulder for old machines?
IBM still supplies but as in all things IBM at hugely inflated prices. There
are several alternate sources which the "MCA Mafia" on the PS2 newsgroup
can apprise you of.
3) I'm having some trouble with the P70.
Originally, it wouldn't boot at
all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were
passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS
6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine,
but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a
floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But
without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance.
There was a discussion regarding this recently (and earlier) on the newsgroup.
Some models have info re set-up on the HD, and if you erase this when fomatting
there are certain steps you must do to reinstall the reference info. Can't
remember the details but the "MCA Mafia" are quite helpful. You could also
check out Peter Wendt's site to see if there's anything regarding this problem.
http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm
Mark.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
26 Mar
26 Mar
9:46 a.m.
Lawrence Walker wrote:
The PS/2 is one of the lines I collect. They were a remarkable machine.
Unfortunately IBM goofed in charging exhorbitant liscensing fees for the
MCA which gave birth to the EISA consortium. I have an 8530 (XT model),
8557 (386,SCSI and fast UART), 8560 (tower 286), 8570-A21 (386, my fastest
at 25mhz with coprocesser and cache) , 8580 (386, introduced PS/2 MCA line
and VGA (on planar), tower, built like a tank-my favorite) and several spares.
Want a P70 and 95 to fill out the line.
MCA was PnP before it became a "feature" The major drawback is the
availability and price of the cards. Virtually all the PS/2s were easily
disassembled.
I'll have 2 P70's in immaculate shape and I have 3 various 8595 configurations to
get rid of either in trade or sale. I also have 8565's, 8555/56/57's and
8590's and
others. Get with me off the list and we can see what we can work out.
Usually the trick is to make them fit. The P70 has one long and one short slot.
IBM still supplies but as in all things IBM at hugely inflated prices. There
are several alternate sources which the "MCA Mafia" on the PS2 newsgroup
can apprise you of.
There's stuff all over the place dependant on the model.
There was a discussion regarding this recently (and earlier) on the newsgroup.
Some models have info re set-up on the HD, and if you erase this when fomatting
there are certain steps you must do to reinstall the reference info. Can't
remember the details but the "MCA Mafia" are quite helpful. You could also
check out Peter Wendt's site to see if there's anything regarding this problem.
lwalker(a)interlog.com
The P70 isn't one of them. The SCSI models have the "system partition" of
1mb with
the reference disk on it. Some utilities will let you delete it (Disk Manager for
one) and others will show it but protect it (Fdisk is one).
9:20 a.m.
Mark Gregory wrote:
Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2
machines: a PS/2 P70 386
portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience
with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember
when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and
the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc.
Any big corporate venture that's non-standard is ravaged by the media. Somehow
they have made themselves out to be the experts just because they have a
channel to the rest of the world. They are different but very nice once you get
the jist of them, epecially the newer 95xx series machines.
I was impressed with the build quality and design of
the machines (the
power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the
whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with
the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play than
with many peripherals on Win 9x machines.
Well except for diconnecting the power cables to the drives in some instances
as well as unplugging the unit or there won't be any swinging out going to
happen. Not Plug-n-Pray so much as Plug-n-Go Find the ADF file. This is also an
eay thing once you find and bookmark the proper sites of storage for the
ADF/ADC files.
Some questions:
1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it
seems quite nice.
It really didn't. It evolved to EISA combining the best of both MCA and ISA.
2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI
controller, or do the drives
have to be ESDI drives?
Nope. ESDI is similar to SCSI in that the controller is only a host adapter,
not an actual controller like MFM and RLL. This allows you to have the drive's
parameters queryed by the host adapter and set auto-magically rather than
digging up a bunch of specs and crosing your fingers that they'll work.
3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board
can be replaced with
an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run
their parts depot in Boulder for old machines?
Better to look around for an AMD 5x86 upgrade and make it a Pentium class
machine. They can be gotten for around $50 in used form. OR you can get one of
the processor complex cards from another model 8590 or 8595 (they're the same
except for the case) and use it. I don't think you can use one from a 9590 or
9595 since they've changed and added a few things.
As for the P70 there is an IBM FRU (field replaceable unit) that is made for
the 70 and 80 that makes it a 486 but it won't physically fit. You can use one
of the many 386-486 upgrades available. My wife's 8573, aka P70, is a 486 with
Win95 and 16mb ram. I used a $25 "MakeIt 486" that plugged right in place of
the 386 chip.
3) I'm having some trouble with the P70.
Originally, it wouldn't boot at
all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were
passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS
6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine,
but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a
floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But
without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas?
You can do a "low level format" (a hardware level format) by going to the
opening menu of the reference disk and pressing CTRL-A and then going to hard
drive preparation. Once this passes and completes, reboot with a DOS disk and
put a partition on the drive and then reboot and format using FORMAT C::/S to
transfer the system files. You may also need to replace the drive if it doesn't
come around. I've had one or two over the period of all my PS/2 ventures come
up bad for whatever reason. Usually the MFM 20 and 30 mb ones do that
though.They have a "type" number on the ID label and a narrower bus connection
than the full width that the 70 uses. The P70 uses the ESDI "MCA" drives that
autopark and should talk to the host adapter on their own.
If worse comes to worse email me directly, I have all sorts of machines and
parts. Also the IBM "HMM" or hardare maintenance manual for all the machines
you have are online at http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/cdt/hmm.html but please note
that the P70 is not in the PS/2 manual but rather in one of the other manuals -
see the manual descriptions. The L40/SX is also listed in that series for
anyone that might need it.
11:07 a.m.
1) Why did
Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it
seems quite nice.
It really didn't. It evolved to EISA combining the best of both MCA and ISA.
9247
days inactive
9249
days old
13 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
dpeschel＠u.washington.edu -
gram＠cnct.com -
gregorym＠cadvision.com -
jpero＠cgocable.net -
kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
red＠bears.org -
rhblake＠bigfoot.com -
william＠ans.net