11 Aug
2004
11 Aug
'04
9:22 a.m.
If someone is going to make the effort to decode the information from
the original computer media into the archive standard then if the data
is 10 or 100 times larger than the original should not be an issue. The
same is true for costs. I have seen too many systems where there was a
perceived decision that it would be too costly to "do it right".
The idea is to take a copy of a program or data and convert it/archive
it once and know that it is then saved.
Think of the following;
Stone once was expensive so clay tablets were used.
Papyrus was expensive so wax tablets were used
At one time paper was too expensive so it was not used chalk on a board
was used instead.
Later pulp paper was cheaper and acid free paper was expensive.
Punch cards once were cheap
Mark Sense forms
Magnetic tape
Magnetic disk
Optical disk
CD-ROM
DVD
The "best" real long-term media that I can think of is "eye ball"
readable. Think Rosetta stone.
Do you want to use Big-Indian, Little-Indian, Intel, Motorola, Cyrillic,
cuneiform, hieroglyphs, binary, hex, octal RAD50, left-to-right,
right-to-left, Chinese, Japanese, English, Pig Latin, Latin, Spanish,
Old English, Old Latin, Norse, Mayan or Esperanto?
I have heard that the Mormon Church is using iridium disks inscribed
with an ion writer, it may take a magnifying glass but it's readable.
It's supposed to last 1,000 years.
This may be slightly sacrilegious. We will then need a "priesthood" of
fanatical zealots to protect the archived data for posterity. I
nominate Sellam to be the patron saint of data retention. Tony can be
the patron saint of hardware restoration.
I'll be friar Mike hunched over a lectern transcribing data with an ion
writer.
Mike
11 Aug
11 Aug
10:22 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "McFadden, Mike" <mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
<SNIP>
Think of the following;
Stone once was expensive so clay tablets were used.
Papyrus was expensive so wax tablets were used
...</SNIP>
Time to start making a list of media types!
Paper Media (Paper-tape, bar-code, etc...)
Punch-Card (Hollerinth, etc...)
Magnetic Tape (9-Track, DAT, DDS, Audio Cassette, DEC TK, DLT, HP Magstrips,
1/4", 1/2", etc...)
Disk packs
Exotic permanent memories (Core, Bubble, etc...)
Magnetic hard drives (Drum, Winchester, DEC, DASD, HP, MFM, RLL, IDE, SCSI,
SATA, etc...)
Removable hard drives (Bernoulli, ZIP, Jaz, Syquest, Magneto-optical,
etc...)
Cartridge/ROM memories (ROMs, PROMs, EPROMS, EEPROMs, BIOS chips, game
carts, computer carts, etc...)
Floppy disks (2", 3.5", 5.25", 8", Apple Twiggy, Commodore, Soft/hard
sectored, multiple densities, Copy protected/bad sectored)
Flash-RAM devices (USB/Firewire/PCMCIA, disk-on-chip, CompactFlash, SD, MMC,
Memory stick etc...)
Optical media (WORM, Laserdisc, CDROM, CD-RW, CDi, CDA, DVD, DVD-RAM,
DVD+RW, DVD-RW, etc...)
What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM and call
it done? What about Laserdisc video? It's straight composite analog video,
which could be digitized at a standard rate for reproduction. Yes these
corner cases matter, if we are doing a truly multiformat media archive
storage architecture. (Dragon's Lair anyone? Voyager space mission disc?)
10:37 a.m.
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jason McBrien wrote:
What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz
/ 16-bit PCM and call
it done?
I thought about that. In that case, I'd be inclined to store it as either
a byte stream (since writing it back out to the original medium will mean
recording it back to tape) or as level transitions or tones. Again, the
spec should be able to handle this.
What about Laserdisc video? It's straight
composite analog video,
which could be digitized at a standard rate for reproduction. Yes these
corner cases matter, if we are doing a truly multiformat media archive
storage architecture. (Dragon's Lair anyone? Voyager space mission disc?)
Hmmm. This will certainly have to be argued out.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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1:21 p.m.
What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz
/ 16-bit PCM
and call it done?
No! Please! Not for archival purposes! 44.1KHz is good enough for
casual listening, for most people, but it is not good enough for
archival - and for a serious audiophile, it's not enough even for
listening.
If I had analog audio to digitize for archival purposes, I'd aim for
1MHz sample rate and at least 24bit (preferably 32bit) A->D. It seems
like overkill by today's standards, but storing a couple of orders of
magnitude more data is cheap compared to discovering you need - or even
just want - data that simply isn't there now that the original's gone.
Of course, this is a choice to be made by the person converting the
analog data to digital. I think the format spec should be able to
describe whatever that person chooses; I think it would be a _very_ bad
idea to assume anything about what that choice will be. The format
should be able to handle anything from 3 bits/sample compressed sound
such as I get from my voice modem, or even less, to multi-MHz sample
rates at hundreds of bits per sample (8-eg, channel 32bpp = 256 bits
per sampling tick). For audio, you probably could get away with
capping it at a few GHz sample rate - I'm not sure air can carry
frequences that high - but I see no reason to impose any limit.
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2:07 p.m.
Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words:
Just checking, but are we on the same page? If you're talking *music* then
I'd agree with you, but if we're talking computer "cassette audio data
storage" formats, then I would think 44.1KHz would be more than ample, as
standard (or even "data") cassette tapes had nowhere near this quality...
... and it's not like many people would just sit around listing to it on
their hi-fi... ;-)
What shall we
do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM
and call it done?
No! Please! Not for archival purposes! 44.1KHz is good enough for
casual listening, for most people, but it is not good enough for
archival - and for a serious audiophile, it's not enough even for
listening. Of course, this is a choice to be made by the person
converting the
analog data to digital. I think the format spec should be able to
describe whatever that person chooses; I think it would be a _very_ bad
idea to assume anything about what that choice will be. The format
should be able to handle anything from 3 bits/sample compressed sound
such as I get from my voice modem, or even less, to multi-MHz sample
rates at hundreds of bits per sample (8-eg, channel 32bpp = 256 bits
per sampling tick). For audio, you probably could get away with
capping it at a few GHz sample rate - I'm not sure air can carry
frequences that high - but I see no reason to impose any limit.
Well, maybe I'm wrong, but "audio" would assume "audible"... as in
you need
to be able to hear it. Standards say that would be 20Hz->20KHz, but I'd say
DC->25KHz would be better...
... If this archive data is to be around long enough that humans have wiped
themselves off the map, and dogs eventually evolve to sentience (assuming
they haven't already, and are taking the "perma-retirement" path to
enlightment... ;-) then DC->35KHz would probably be about right.
Altho I agree that we shouldn't "impose limits" - and the spec should
handle as much as possible, I would doubt that there's much analog data out
there that would exceed 100KHz; and for audio 35KHz would probably be the max.
YMMV, Salt to taste and all that jazz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate."
sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein
zmerch(a)30below.com |
6:42 p.m.
What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz
/ 16-bit PCM
and call it done?
No! Please! Not for archival purposes! For audio, you
probably could get away with capping it at a few GHz
sample rate - I'm not sure air can carry frequences that high -
Well, maybe
I'm wrong, but "audio" would assume "audible"... as in
you need to be able to hear it. Standards say that would be 20Hz->20KHz, but
I'd say DC->25KHz would
be better...
It would. Certainly go down to the DC. I understand that a small but
decent percentage of the population (mostly children) can hear as high
as 25KHz, and I'd definitely want a good deal of headroom above that.
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12 Aug
12 Aug
10:58 a.m.
New subject: music
der Mouse wrote:
It would. Certainly go down to the DC. I understand
that a small but
decent percentage of the population (mostly children) can hear as high
as 25KHz, and I'd definitely want a good deal of headroom above that.
No it is sampling rate here that is the problem for 10,000 Hz.
This signal gets chopped into a sine or square or triangle wave.
Ok for telephone but not music.
Ben.
12:03 p.m.
New subject: music
No it is sampling rate here that is the problem for
10,000 Hz. This
signal gets chopped into a sine or square or triangle wave. Ok for
telephone but not music.
That's a matter for reconstruction filters. Ideally, you take your
D->A output and run it through a filter that's flat from DC to the
limit frequency (half the sampling rate) and drops instantly to zero
gain for anything above that.
Of course, no such ideal filter exists, but it's possible to get close
enough for a lot of purposes. CD player makers put a lot of effort
into approximating such filters.
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11 Aug
11 Aug
1:46 p.m.
Jason McBrien wrote:
What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at 44.1KHz
/ 16-bit PCM and call
it done? What about Laserdisc video? It's straight composite analog video,
which could be digitized at a standard rate for reproduction. Yes these
corner cases matter, if we are doing a truly multiformat media archive
storage architecture. (Dragon's Lair anyone? Voyager space mission disc?)
The Voyager disc was a record. - analog.
I say stick to 8 bit bytes for media - transfer programs can handle that.
Why not just record the real bit data and timing data, media is cheap.
Ben.
12 Aug
12 Aug
9:44 a.m.
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote:
Jason McBrien wrote:
If you folks are discussing analog audio storage then it's not part of
this spec. Sorry.
If you're discussing analog data storage then it is.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
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[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
What shall we do with analog audio? Sample at
44.1KHz / 16-bit PCM and call
it done? What about Laserdisc video? It's straight composite analog video,
which could be digitized at a standard rate for reproduction. Yes these
corner cases matter, if we are doing a truly multiformat media archive
storage architecture. (Dragon's Lair anyone? Voyager space mission disc?)
The Voyager disc was a record. - analog.
I say stick to 8 bit bytes for media - transfer programs can handle that.
Why not just record the real bit data and timing data, media is cheap. 
11:12 p.m.
Hi,
ben franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> said:
BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow?
Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed
a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material.
Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device
though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one!
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
12 Aug
12 Aug
3:14 a.m.
Suggestion to the list....
This topic looks like it is gaining some serious momentum! However it is
also getting very hard to follow [at least to me] due to the nature of the
list and is "over-taking" the list.
It might be a good idea if an alternative (enhanced) venue could be
arranged. It seems a dedicated forum [not list] might be a good idea. This
way the ideas could be divided into distinct areas and threads. Files
attached, etc.
Of course most forums are [...aack..] Windows based, so this might annoy
some members.
I can actually host a dedicated forum for this purpose if it seems like a
good idea. The forum can be moderated or open [users will of course have to
register].
If this seems like a good idea, please let me know VIA DIRECT E-MAIL.
David V. Corbin
President
Dynamic Concepts Development Corp
Sayville, New York
david(a)dynamicconcepts.us
12:37 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
It might be a good idea if an alternative (enhanced)
venue could be
arranged. It seems a dedicated forum [not list] might be a good idea. This
way the ideas could be divided into distinct areas and threads. Files
attached, etc.
I agree. I've asked Jay if he can set up a new mailing list for it. If
he doesn't get back to me within a day or so then let's just move it over
to what you have.
It is getting a bit overwhelming here.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
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10:40 a.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote:
Not necessarily doubting, but was that "stores", or "can store"?
Many years ago, I attended a presentation about a holographic
system the "could store" MANY gigabytes per cc. The phrase
"can store" was used a lot. When asked about current progress,
they were VERY evasive. After about a dozen questions, they
admitted that they had not yet achieved the multi-gigabyte
capacity. After many more questions, they finally admitted
that the current capacity was 27 bits. It is a good proof of
concept, but the differentiation between projection and
accomplishment is significant.
'course by now, they very well might have reached the
capacity goals.
Similarly there is a proponent of alternate fuel vehicles who
is constantly quoting specs that include impressive results.
He is very evasive about timeframe of availability.
But it turns out that his vehicle is NOT in production.
There isn't even a prototype! His "data" is all results
of "simulations", and many of his "can do" numbers require
a complete restructure of society. Even when explicity
challenged, he adamently refuses to acknowledge a difference
between possibilities and existence.
BTW what
happed to holographic storage anyhow?
Work is still in progress. Shizuka
University in Japan recently demoed
a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material.
Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device
though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one!
11:16 a.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
Hi,
Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> said:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote:
Not necessarily doubting, but was that "stores", or "can store"?
A good question that had me searching through magazines to find the
article where I read about it. It was in "New Scientist" 31 July.
It says "can store". Re-reading the article it seems it may not be
holographic but it uses "..a red laser with a wavelentgh of 79 nm
in a way that controls the shape and spacing of individual bits,
providing clear spacing between them. It is then read using UV light
BTW what
happed to holographic storage anyhow?
Work is still in progress. Shizuka
University in Japan recently demoed
a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material.
Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device
though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! from a helium-neon laser..". How much data
they've *actually* stored
in the device is not mentioned.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
1:36 p.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware?
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote:
Not necessarily doubting, but was that "stores", or "can store"?
Many years ago, I attended a presentation about a holographic
system the "could store" MANY gigabytes per cc. The phrase
"can store" was used a lot. When asked about current progress,
they were VERY evasive. After about a dozen questions, they
admitted that they had not yet achieved the multi-gigabyte
capacity. After many more questions, they finally admitted
that the current capacity was 27 bits. It is a good proof of
concept, but the differentiation between projection and
accomplishment is significant.
'course by now, they very well might have reached the
capacity goals.
Similarly there is a proponent of alternate fuel vehicles who
is constantly quoting specs that include impressive results.
He is very evasive about timeframe of availability.
But it turns out that his vehicle is NOT in production.
There isn't even a prototype! His "data" is all results
of "simulations", and many of his "can do" numbers require
a complete restructure of society. Even when explicity
challenged, he adamently refuses to acknowledge a difference
between possibilities and existence.
A lot of theorists can't tell that there *is* a difference.
I worked with a guy like that at UT. I always wanted to invite him
to dinner, and present him with a 20-minute discourse on how I could
prepare his meal.
Doc
BTW what
happed to holographic storage anyhow?
Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed
a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material.
Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device
though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one! 
13 Aug
13 Aug
4:45 a.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
Am 12 Aug 2004 12:40 meinte Fred Cisin:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote:
> > BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow?
> Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed
> a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material.
> Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device
> though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one!
Not necessarily doubting, but was that
"stores", or "can store"?
Many years ago, I attended a presentation about a holographic
system the "could store" MANY gigabytes per cc. The phrase
"can store" was used a lot. When asked about current progress,
they were VERY evasive. After about a dozen questions, they
admitted that they had not yet achieved the multi-gigabyte
capacity. After many more questions, they finally admitted
that the current capacity was 27 bits. It is a good proof of
concept, but the differentiation between projection and
accomplishment is significant.
'course by now, they very well might have reached the
capacity goals.
Well, as it looks, the Stuttgart people already store (and
retrive) a terrabyte (1000 Gig) in a 1 cm^3 cube. So the scale
might be right.
Similarly there is a proponent of alternate fuel
vehicles who
is constantly quoting specs that include impressive results.
He is very evasive about timeframe of availability.
But it turns out that his vehicle is NOT in production.
There isn't even a prototype! His "data" is all results
of "simulations", and many of his "can do" numbers require
a complete restructure of society. Even when explicity
challenged, he adamently refuses to acknowledge a difference
between possibilities and existence.
*G*
I'm already happy with what's available. As for myself I'm a
hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel
engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if
not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid,
but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :(
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
8:48 a.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote:
I'm already happy with what's available. As
for myself I'm a
hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel
engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if
not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid,
but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :(
You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
8:58 a.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote:
I mean, you *could*!
Didn't your mother ever make you save your pennies for the good stuff,
rather than buying all the bright shiny objects you saw? :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
I'm already happy with what's available.
As for myself I'm a
hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel
engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if
not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid,
but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :(
You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers!
9:12 a.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
Am 13 Aug 2004 10:58 meinte Vintage Computer Festival:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Well, define good stuff. When we meet Alah at the happy hunting grounds,
no Mercedes nor Computer will be with me ... so it's just a temporary
burden ... and good or not is in the eye of the beholder :)
H.
BTW: My Mother always drives a Mercedes, so why do I need one?
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote:
I mean, you *could*!
Didn't your mother ever make you save your pennies for the good stuff,
rather than buying all the bright shiny objects you saw? :) I'm already happy with what's available.
As for myself I'm a
hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel
engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if
not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid,
but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :(
You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers!
4:10 p.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote:
BTW: My Mother always drives a Mercedes, so why do I
need one?
Because she's knows the way you drive and has seen what's happened to your
car, and won't let you go anywhere near her Mercedes ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
9:14 a.m.
New subject: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Doubtful -- I would think she would have taught him to save his Pfennigs
instead.
;-)
What are they called now? "Hundredths of a Euro?" or do you just say "komma
null eins euro?"
Ah, I long for the good ol' days, when real coins had real names...
;-)
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in
Celeronville!"
sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???"
zmerch(a)30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!"
| JC == Jeremy Christian
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote:
I mean, you *could*!
Didn't your mother ever make you save your pennies for the good stuff,
rather than buying all the bright shiny objects you saw? :) I'm already happy with what's available.
As for myself I'm a
hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel
engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if
not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid,
but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :(
You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers!
9:55 a.m.
New subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard))
Am 13 Aug 2004 14:14 meinte Roger Merchberger:
Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have
mentioned these words:
>On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote:
> > > I'm already happy with what's available. As for myself I'm a
> > > hugr fan of the hybrid idea, but in reality, modern Diesel
> > > engines are at least at the same level of fuel efficency if
> > > not ahead. Meredes is even working on a large Diesel hybrid,
> > > but then again, I can't afford Mercedes prices :(
> > You couldn't if you didn't blow all your money on old computers!
>I mean, you *could*!
>Didn't your mother ever make you save your pennies for the good stuff,
>rather than buying all the bright shiny objects you saw? :)
Doubtful -- I would think she would have taught him to
save his Pfennigs
instead.
*G*
Wer den Pfennig nicht ehrt ist den Thaler nicht wert.
(He who doesn't honor the Pfennig isn't woth a Thaler - Thaler
is an old german currency, some 300 years ago ... in fact the
Dollar is taken from that:)
What are they called now? "Hundredths of a
Euro?" or do you just say "komma
null eins euro?"
No, Cent. what a stupid name, I mean, it has no sound to it.
Ah, I long for the good ol' days, when real coins
had real names...
Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are real
coin names, both are well known in all European languages
(Franken, Franc, Franks / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...) and
even more, since these names are well known from the past,
the people would easy accept it. But no, Weigel, to my
shame a Bavarian (I think the beeing a politician removes
all common sense), had to come up with the stupis name
Euro.
But then again, who cares, as long as I get nice computers
for this funny paper, I'm fine.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
10:11 a.m.
New subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard))
What are they
called now? "Hundredths of a Euro?" or do you just say
"komma null eins euro?"
No, Cent. what a stupid name, I mean, it has no
sound to it. Ah, I long for
the good ol' days, when real coins had real names...
Yes, my suggestion was
Franken and Pfennig, both are real coin names,
both are well known in all European languages (Franken, Franc, Franks
/ Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...) (I think the beeing a politician removes all common
sense),
I think it's more the other way around: one does not become a
politician unless one is already rather lacking.
had to come up with the stupis name Euro.
Like the currency itself, I suspect it's largely a political
compromise.
But then again, who cares, as long as I get nice
computers for this
funny paper, I'm fine.
There _is_ that. :-)
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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11:08 a.m.
New subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard))
Am 13 Aug 2004 15:11 meinte der Mouse:
>> Ah, I long for the good ol' days, when
real coins had real names...
> Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are real coin names,
> both are well known in all European languages (Franken, Franc, Franks
> / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...)
"All European languages"? Danish? Finnish?
Polish? Slovenian?
English, for that matter? There isn't much of
anything left as far as
I can see related to "frank" as a coin name, at least not in the North
American dialect.
Yeah, what about Penny? My reason to select a real (old)
curency name is that such names are still known by most
people, and usualy attached with a rather positive sence
(aka good old times, when we still could by a horse for
5 Thaler and get a room at an inn for 5 Kreuzer)
> had to come up with the stupis name Euro.
Like the currency itself, I suspect it's largely a
political
compromise.
The story told is that they where more or less finished,
but already talking for two days in a row about the name
thing, until Waigel came with the artificial crap and
forced it doun the throat.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
12:03 p.m.
New subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard))
Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are
real coin
names, both are well known in all European languages (Franken,
Franc, Franks / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...)
English, for that matter? There
isn't much of anything left as far
as I can see related to "frank" as a coin name, at least not in the
North American dialect.
1:37 p.m.
New subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let'sdevelop an open-source media archive standard))
So are you saying on "Franken""Sense", how about "Gold" or
"Myrrh"?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 5:04 PM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer
>> vaporware? (was: Let'sdevelop an open-source media archive
>> standard))
>>
>> >>> Yes, my suggestion was Franken and Pfennig, both are real coin
>> >>> names, both are well known in all European languages (Franken,
>> >>> Franc, Franks / Pfennig, Pennig, Penny...)
>> >> English, for that matter? There isn't much of anything
>> left as far
>> >> as I can see related to "frank" as a coin name, at least
>> not in the
>> >> North American dialect.
>> > Yeah, what about Penny?
>>
>> What about it? You said "both", and "Pfennig" is no
>> problem ("penny", as you point out); it's "Franken" I
can't
>> see any live relative to.
>>
>> /~\ The ASCII der Mouse
>> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>> X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
>> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:59 p.m.
New subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let'sdevelop an open-source media archive standard))
So are you saying on
"Franken""Sense", how about "Gold" or "Myrrh"?
Yes! That's a myrrhvelous idea!
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
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10:35 a.m.
New subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard))
Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words:
Am 13 Aug 2004 14:14 meinte Roger Merchberger:
[snip]
Wer den Pfennig nicht ehrt ist den Thaler nicht wert.
(He who doesn't honor the Pfennig isn't woth a Thaler - Thaler
is an old german currency, some 300 years ago ... in fact the
Dollar is taken from that:)
Neat saying -- I'll have to add that to my ".sig randomizer" file.
[[and my 2nd love is computers -- my first was coin collecting.
Unfortunately, old coins don't pay bills, so I don't spend nearly so much
time on it as I'd like.]]
I know what a Thaler is (but I don't have one... drat!) -- but my choice
would probably been Guilder. I don't know why, I've always liked the name
Guilder. I do have a few of those.
No, Cent. what a stupid name, I mean, it has no sound
to it.
Yea... uh... gee, thanks! That's what we call *our* decimal coinage...
(although, even if it says "one cent" on our penny, most people call them
pennies to this day.)
;-)
(I think the beeing a politician removes all common
sense)...
I would think that one would need to lose all common sense *before*
becoming a politician! Otherwise, they could have found a much better
occupation...
So gehts... ;-)
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!!
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
11:03 a.m.
New subject: eUROS 8WAS: Is holographic no longer vaporware? (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard))
Am 13 Aug 2004 15:35 meinte Roger Merchberger:
Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these
words:
>Am 13 Aug 2004 14:14 meinte Roger Merchberger:
>[snip]
>Wer den Pfennig nicht ehrt ist den Thaler nicht wert.
>(He who doesn't honor the Pfennig isn't woth a Thaler - Thaler
>is an old german currency, some 300 years ago ... in fact the
>Dollar is taken from that:)
I know what a Thaler is (but I don't have one...
drat!) -- but my choice
would probably been Guilder. I don't know why, I've always liked the name
Guilder. I do have a few of those.
Jo, even Guldern/Guilder would have been better.
>No, Cent. what a stupid name, I mean, it has no
sound to it.
Yea... uh... gee, thanks! That's what we call
*our* decimal coinage...
(although, even if it says "one cent" on our penny, most people call them
pennies to this day.)
After all, it'S not a name, it just says 1/100th. And there'
not much more stupid to me, than takeing a name from which was
already just made up.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
12 Aug
12 Aug
10:51 a.m.
Stan Barr wrote:
Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in
Japan recently demoed
a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material.
Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device
though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one!
What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :)
11:20 a.m.
Hi,
ben franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> said:
Stan Barr wrote:
They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would take to read
2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-)
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in
Japan recently demoed
a device that stores 2000 gigabytes of data in a 1cm cube of material.
Reading and writing the data is still too slow for a practical device
though. You could archive a *lot* of data with one!
What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :)
13 Aug
13 Aug
9:55 a.m.
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote:
No need to imagine - Calculate:
Lets say that the Paper Tape is in ASCII format, then each character is
a Byte - and that the Reader is a fairly advanced optical device running
at a conservative 1200 bytes per minute.
2000 GB (2 TB) is 2*10^12
so (2*10^12)/1200 = 1.66666667*10^9 minutes to read 2 TB
/60 = 27,777,777.8 hours
/24 = 1,157,407.41 days
/365 = 3171 years
presupposing a Really Good reader that could operate that long w/out any
maintenance or downtime.... probably Sellam has a couple of these on his
Shelves.
NOW: 10 KB of 5-mil thick punched paper tape on a 3/4-inch hub with a
punch width of .060 and an inter-character width of .060 makes a diameter
of.... oops my brain just exploded - sorry.
But damn! that would be an impressive wheel of paper!!!!
Cheers
John
Hi,
ben franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> said:
> Stan Barr wrote:
>
>> Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed
[snippage]
What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :)
They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would take to read
2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-)
10:27 a.m.
New subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard )
Am 13 Aug 2004 14:55 meinte John Lawson:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote:
Hi,
ben franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> said:
> Stan Barr wrote:
>> Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in Japan recently demoed
[snippage]
>> What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :)
> They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would take to read
> 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-) No need to imagine - Calculate:
Lets say that the Paper Tape is in ASCII format,
then each character is
a Byte - and that the Reader is a fairly advanced optical device running
at a conservative 1200 bytes per minute.
2000 GB (2 TB) is 2*10^12
so (2*10^12)/1200 = 1.66666667*10^9 minutes to read 2
TB
/60 = 27,777,777.8 hours
/24 = 1,157,407.41 days
/365 = 3171 years
presupposing a Really Good reader that could operate that long w/out any
maintenance or downtime.... probably Sellam has a couple of these on his
Shelves.
NOW: 10 KB of 5-mil thick punched paper tape on a
3/4-inch hub with a
punch width of .060 and an inter-character width of .060 makes a diameter
of.... oops my brain just exploded - sorry.
But damn! that would be an impressive wheel of
paper!!!!
Nowwaitaminute.... Impressive Paper roll? that reminds me
of news paper printing, and AFAIR they use speeds of above
40 km/h (25 mph) at at the press in one newspaper here in Munich
(Sueddeutsche Zeitung)... With way less quality paper than
paper tape used to be.
Now .. let's for now assume a bit hole is about 1 mm in diameter,
and the gap between is of equal size, thus one byte every 2mm.
now, assumeing a speed of 40 km/h this gives 40,000,000/2 Bytes/h
or 20 MByte/h transfer rate (or with around 333 KByte/min or 5 k/s
almost 300 times the speed you assumed). The problem is still the
paper transport, not optical sensing, since even an 8 Bit controler
is be able to shovel awy the data.
2*10^12/2*10^7
... gee that's easy to cancel down ...
1*10^5 hours
or just about 14 Month
Hey, that's fast!
Average access time of just 7 Month - large enough paper roll assumed.
(2*10^12*2^-3m = 4 mil km, or 11 times the distance eath/moon - hey,
waitaminute, this means our reader can eat it's way to the moon in
just a month :)
Gruss
H.
It's your fault, John, you got me going :)
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
11:09 a.m.
New subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard )
Hans,
You missed the important part of using a newspaper press as a papertape
reader...It is MUCH wider than a single byte.
No revising the calculations to use the actual roll sizee of a commercial
press, and using 10 bytes / sq in [arrogant american here] we start to see
some interesting numbers for capacity and speed....
Not neaarly as fast as other storage media still...but you get the advantage
that it is readable by a human [yes I have punched and read PDP-8 BIN loader
tapes by hand!]. Very fault tolerant [wish I could find a pack of the old
adhexive paper table patches]. Actually no technology is needed to read it.
If we are going to use more advanced technology but still keep the basis
premise, then "reasonable" stamped indentations or even holes could be made
into a very durable media. We sould want to keep the density at or near "eye
readable" levels to eliminate the need for equipment to interpret the
information.
When every one stops laughing (or groaning) compare this concept to the
ancient recordings we have [hieroglyphics, cuniform, etc] and you will see
it is not so different and they have lasted (Basically) intact in many cases
for thousands of years. Even the ones that are severely damaged, still
provide readable content.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 3:27 PM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source
>> media archive standard )
>>
>> Am 13 Aug 2004 14:55 meinte John Lawson:
>> > On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Stan Barr wrote:
>> > > Hi,
>> > > ben franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> said:
>> > >> Stan Barr wrote:
>> > >>> Work is still in progress. Shizuka University in
>> Japan recently
>> > >>> demoed
>> > [snippage]
>> > >> What is too slow. Paper Tape is slow. :)
>> > > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would
>> take to read
>> > > 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-)
>>
>> > No need to imagine - Calculate:
>>
>> > Lets say that the Paper Tape is in ASCII format, then each
>> > character is a Byte - and that the Reader is a fairly
>> advanced optical
>> > device running at a conservative 1200 bytes per minute.
>>
>> > 2000 GB (2 TB) is 2*10^12
>>
>> > so (2*10^12)/1200 = 1.66666667*10^9 minutes to read 2 TB
>> > /60 = 27,777,777.8 hours
>> > /24 = 1,157,407.41 days
>> > /365 = 3171 years
>> > presupposing a Really Good reader that could operate
>> that long w/out
>> > any maintenance or downtime.... probably Sellam has a
>> couple of these
>> > on his Shelves.
>>
>> > NOW: 10 KB of 5-mil thick punched paper tape on a
>> 3/4-inch hub
>> > with a punch width of .060 and an inter-character width
>> of .060 makes
>> > a diameter of.... oops my brain just exploded - sorry.
>>
>> > But damn! that would be an impressive wheel of paper!!!!
>>
>> Nowwaitaminute.... Impressive Paper roll? that reminds me
>> of news paper printing, and AFAIR they use speeds of above
>> 40 km/h (25 mph) at at the press in one newspaper here in
>> Munich (Sueddeutsche Zeitung)... With way less quality
>> paper than paper tape used to be.
>>
>> Now .. let's for now assume a bit hole is about 1 mm in
>> diameter, and the gap between is of equal size, thus one
>> byte every 2mm.
>> now, assumeing a speed of 40 km/h this gives 40,000,000/2
>> Bytes/h or 20 MByte/h transfer rate (or with around 333
>> KByte/min or 5 k/s almost 300 times the speed you assumed).
>> The problem is still the paper transport, not optical
>> sensing, since even an 8 Bit controler is be able to shovel
>> awy the data.
>>
>> 2*10^12/2*10^7
>>
>> ... gee that's easy to cancel down ...
>>
>> 1*10^5 hours
>> or just about 14 Month
>>
>> Hey, that's fast!
>>
>> Average access time of just 7 Month - large enough paper
>> roll assumed.
>> (2*10^12*2^-3m = 4 mil km, or 11 times the distance
>> eath/moon - hey, waitaminute, this means our reader can eat
>> it's way to the moon in just a month :)
>>
>> Gruss
>> H.
>> It's your fault, John, you got me going :)
>> --
>> VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
>> http://www.vcfe.org/
>>
11:14 a.m.
New subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard )
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
You missed the important part of using a newspaper
press as a papertape
reader...It is MUCH wider than a single byte.
No revising the calculations to use the actual roll sizee of a commercial
press, and using 10 bytes / sq in [arrogant american here] we start to see
some interesting numbers for capacity and speed....
Not neaarly as fast as other storage media still...but you get the advantage
that it is readable by a human [yes I have punched and read PDP-8 BIN loader
tapes by hand!]. Very fault tolerant [wish I could find a pack of the old
adhexive paper table patches]. Actually no technology is needed to read it.
Fault tolerant? Hanging chad?
11:30 a.m.
New subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard )
That is a fault at write time. Once the data have been validated, chad does
NOT "appear".
Since we are basing the cretion of the archives on the present day, we could
simply gather all of the chad at the time of writing the archive and simply
messure the mass compared to the number of "1"s that were printed.
David
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 4:15 PM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: RE: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source
>> media archive standard )
>>
>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
>> > You missed the important part of using a newspaper press as a
>> > papertape reader...It is MUCH wider than a single byte.
>> > No revising the calculations to use the actual roll sizee of a
>> > commercial press, and using 10 bytes / sq in [arrogant
>> american here]
>> > we start to see some interesting numbers for capacity and
>> speed....
>> >
>> > Not neaarly as fast as other storage media still...but
>> you get the
>> > advantage that it is readable by a human [yes I have
>> punched and read
>> > PDP-8 BIN loader tapes by hand!]. Very fault tolerant
>> [wish I could
>> > find a pack of the old adhexive paper table patches].
>> Actually no technology is needed to read it.
>>
>> Fault tolerant? Hanging chad?
>>
11:27 a.m.
New subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard )
Hans Franke wrote:
Now .. let's for now assume a bit hole is about 1
mm in diameter,
and the gap between is of equal size, thus one byte every 2mm.
now, assumeing a speed of 40 km/h this gives 40,000,000/2 Bytes/h
or 20 MByte/h transfer rate (or with around 333 KByte/min or 5 k/s
almost 300 times the speed you assumed). The problem is still the
paper transport, not optical sensing, since even an 8 Bit controler
is be able to shovel awy the data.
1*10^5 hours
or just about 14 Month
Well read this ( almost on topic )
"In order to break the Lorenz codes in a reasonable time the cipher text
had
to be repeatedly scanned at very high speed. This meant at least 5,000
characters per second and in the 1942 this implied hard vacuum photocells
to optically read the holes in the paper tape. The smallest photocells
available
were some developed for proximity fuses in anti aircraft shells. Six
of these in
a row meant an optical projection system to enlarge the image of the paper
tape about 10 times. Dr Arnold Lynch designed the paper tape reader
and used slits cut into black card to form a mask in front of the
photocells."
Quoted from this web page.
http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/colossus.htm
12:36 p.m.
New subject: Paper Tape (was: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard )
On Fri, 2004-08-13 at 20:27, ben franchuk wrote:
"In order to break the Lorenz codes in a
reasonable time the cipher text
had
to be repeatedly scanned at very high speed. This meant at least 5,000
characters per second and in the 1942 this implied hard vacuum photocells
to optically read the holes in the paper tape.
Actually flat-out the Colossus reader can manage around 8000 chars/sec
IIRC. I'm sure that Cliff (one of the other guys who looks after the
Colossus rebuild) has mentioned to me before that they've had problems
with the tape wearing the metal pulleys on the tape frame before with
those kinds of speeds.
They seem to be letting the public stand in the H Block machine room
itself at the moment (rather than previously whereby the public were
kept in a windowed viewing room) so it's a good time to go and see the
rebuilt Colossus running.
cheers
Jules
2:21 p.m.
New subject: Paper Tape
Jules Richardson wrote:
Actually flat-out the Colossus reader can manage around 8000 chars/sec
IIRC. I'm sure that Cliff (one of the other guys who looks after the
Colossus rebuild) has mentioned to me before that they've had problems
with the tape wearing the metal pulleys on the tape frame before with
those kinds of speeds.
They seem to be letting the public stand in the H Block machine room
itself at the moment (rather than previously whereby the public were
kept in a windowed viewing room) so it's a good time to go and see the
rebuilt Colossus running.
I went to Bletchley for the first time on Wednesday. Tony Sale was there
and he let us into the machine room. It was fascinating to be stood
right next to Colossus's "bedstead" as the tape whirred around at 30
miles per hour, and to see the blinkenlights and valves.
I bought my cheap return ticket, so I'll make the next trip on a
Saturday to see the Retrobeep collection. (Sorry, I've been repeating
that name to myself in an effort to get used to it, and it _still_ sucks!)
--
Paul
14 Aug
14 Aug
11:39 a.m.
New subject: Paper Tape
On Fri, 2004-08-13 at 23:21, Paul Williams wrote:
I went to Bletchley for the first time on Wednesday.
Tony Sale was there
and he let us into the machine room.
Tony's a good guy - far as I know, most of the plans for Colossus are in
his head only and nowhere else :) (Worrying, yes, but technically it's
still all classified info anyway)
It was fascinating to be stood
right next to Colossus's "bedstead" as the tape whirred around at 30
miles per hour, and to see the blinkenlights and valves.
It gets very warm in the room from all those valves during the day if
the doors aren't left open :)
I bought my cheap return ticket, so I'll make the
next trip on a
Saturday to see the Retrobeep collection. (Sorry, I've been repeating
that name to myself in an effort to get used to it, and it _still_ sucks!)
I *know*! It was probably the single thing putting me off from starting
to help out there way back when :-) Still makes me cringe...
cheers
Jules
13 Aug
13 Aug
4:16 p.m.
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, John Lawson wrote:
Lets say that the Paper Tape is in ASCII format,
then each character is
a Byte - and that the Reader is a fairly advanced optical device running
at a conservative 1200 bytes per minute.
2000 GB (2 TB) is 2*10^12
so (2*10^12)/1200 = 1.66666667*10^9 minutes to read 2 TB
/60 = 27,777,777.8 hours
/24 = 1,157,407.41 days
/365 = 3171 years
presupposing a Really Good reader that could operate that long w/out any
maintenance or downtime.... probably Sellam has a couple of these on his
Shelves.
If someone can punch me a 2TB tape then I'll be happy to set it in motion
and we'll check on it in about 3K years.
NOW: 10 KB of 5-mil thick punched paper tape on a
3/4-inch hub with a
punch width of .060 and an inter-character width of .060 makes a diameter
of.... oops my brain just exploded - sorry.
It's all sticky!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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10:45 a.m.
They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it
would take to read
2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-)
I'll read that as 2*10^11 bytes. A good paper tape reader reads 10^3
bytes/second. So it would take 2*10^8 seconds to read it. Now, there are
about 3*10^7 seconds in a year, so it would take about 6 or 7 years to
read in that much data.
Which is slow, but not impossibly slow!
-tony
10:50 a.m.
They don't say how fast, but imagine how long
it would take to read
2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-)
I'll read that as 2*10^11 bytes. A good paper tape reader reads 10^3 bytes/second. So it would take 2*10^8 seconds to read
it. Now, there are
about 3*10^7 seconds in a year, so it would take about 6 or 7 years to
read in that much data.
Which makes it 60+ years... Hmmm... May I use 10 paper tape readers in
parallel :-)
Which is slow, but not impossibly slow!
-tony
-tony
11:16 a.m.
Interesting the differences between Tony's and Han's calculations...
taking into account 10^11 vs 10^12 and 10^3 vs 1.2*10^3....nope still a big
difference....
Getting out the slide rule.....
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 3:45 PM
>> To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Re: Let's develop an open-source media archive standard
>>
>> > They don't say how fast, but imagine how long it would
>> take to read
>> > 2000Gb at paper tape speeds :-)
>>
>> I'll read that as 2*10^11 bytes. A good paper tape reader
>> reads 10^3 bytes/second. So it would take 2*10^8 seconds to
>> read it. Now, there are about 3*10^7 seconds in a year, so
>> it would take about 6 or 7 years to read in that much data.
>>
>> Which is slow, but not impossibly slow!
>>
>> -tony
12 Aug
12 Aug
5:33 a.m.
Am 11 Aug 2004 16:38 meinte ben franchuk:
McFadden, Mike wrote:
> I'll be friar Mike hunched over a lectern transcribing data with an ion
> writer.
Give me holographic media!
BTW what happed to holographic storage anyhow?
Just seen a feature about that on public TV. It seams like they
are comeing along with it. There's a team at the University of
Stuttgart which recently developed a way forfine controll of
the laser light to address the storage without huge high precicion
mirror systems. I couldn't find a web reference, but according
to the report tey are now able to dynamicly controll the beam
and thus can read the desired page even if the cube has moved
or is in a less than perfect fitting. Also you no longer need
an optical bank and the beam length of more than a meter, the
new system can be already fitted in a case the size of a classic
5.25 drive (full height) with an exchangeable holographic media
of 1cm^3 size and about a Terra Byte of storage capacity.
Main drawback is still the cost for the holographic media.
Targetet date for real world applications is arround 2008.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
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