30 Nov
2016
30 Nov
'16
9:07 a.m.
From: Brad H
So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested and
how much they
actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year.
Well, I have to get all mine running first... ;-) Seriously, though, I'm
looking at several years of work to get them all running. (And there are also
various peripherals to do, like tape drives, etc.)
And then there's the project Dave B and I have to creat new blinkenlitz
panels (not to mention SD-card based mass storage to replace those cranky old
disk drives for every-day running, the original purpose before the
blinkenkraze hit us :-) for the PDP-11's...
Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's primarily to amuse me, not to
create anything useful. And it's _very_ successful at that.
Noel
30 Nov
30 Nov
9:15 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
Chiappa
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:08 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
From: Brad H
So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested and
how much they
actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year.
Well, I have to get all mine running first... ;-) Seriously, though, I'm
looking at several years of work to get them all running. (And there are
also various peripherals to do, like tape drives, etc.)
And then there's the project Dave B and I have to creat new blinkenlitz
panels (not to mention SD-card based mass storage to replace those cranky
old disk >drives for every-day running, the original purpose before the
blinkenkraze hit us :-) for the PDP-11's...
Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's primarily
to amuse me, not to
create anything useful. And it's _very_ successful at that.
Noel
True enough. I enjoy the repair and build aspect of the hobby. When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it operating was
like going on an exploration of ancient ruins. Seeing it come to life was
amazing. But I don't find a lot of use for it day to day. Likewise with my
TVT project -- the experience of building it is fantastic, but not sure I'd
have much for it to do once done. Even my old Commodore only gets sporadic
use, and only because it has so much of my old games library.
That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces over time might be my
way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one.
It'd be fun to try and piece one back together. But yeah, I'm trying to
think of what I would do with it afterwards. :)
9:37 a.m.
I was born in '75 and my first experiences with computing were my Dad's
early Commodore stuff. I missed the whole hobbyist era. To me, DG stuff is
seriously antique. When I got my Mark-8 boards they felt a little like Inca
treasure to me. It's all relative.
It's not that I'm unaware of pre-75 computing, especially big mainframes,
etc. But given how viciously much deeper pocketed collectors compete for
that stuff, and shipping, and space.. really... that stuff will likely
always be a curiosity for me rather than something to actually collect and
experience.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:20 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:
When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it
operating was like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.
Were you born in the 20th century?
Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.
11:32 a.m.
On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:
I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought the
Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology. Still very
glad to finally have a full Data General system. Since it replaced a
PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't make me wonder
if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well.
thanks
Jim
When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it operating was
like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.
Were you born in the 20th century?
Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.
11:36 a.m.
On 11/30/16 2:32 PM, jim stephens wrote:
On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
There is DG aka Data General and then there is Digital Group Inc. They
are very different!
Allison
On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:
I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought the
Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology. Still
very glad to finally have a full Data General system. Since it
replaced a PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't
make me wonder if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well.
thanks
Jim
When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it
operating was
like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.
Were you born in the 20th century?
Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.
11:22 p.m.
On 11/30/2016 11:36 AM, allison wrote:
On 11/30/16 2:32 PM, jim stephens wrote:
Very true, but didn't honestly think of that in context of the thread,
nor have I ever had any Digital Group stuff. And does any Digital Group
cause any injuries requiring orthopedic medical attention when you are
lifting it?
thanks
jim
On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
There is DG aka Data General and then there is Digital Group Inc. They
are very different!
On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:
I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought
the Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology.
Still very glad to finally have a full Data General system. Since it
replaced a PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't
make me wonder if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well.
thanks
Jim
When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it
operating was
like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.
Were you born in the 20th century?
Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.
Allison
1 Dec
1 Dec
5:18 a.m.
On 12/1/2016 2:22 AM, jim stephens wrote:
Very true, but didn't honestly think of that in
context of the
thread, nor have I ever had any Digital Group stuff. And does any
Digital Group cause any injuries requiring orthopedic medical
attention when you are lifting it?
thanks jim
Only borderline, I think the total weight of the system box was around 40lbs. The
standard box was a little bigger than the Altair 8800, I think. Wider by about 10"
or so. I built a bunch of their kits when I was 17/18 before I went to college. Tried to
make my own chassis and P/S but finally had to give in and buy the dg one. I had a 2.5Mhz
Z80a, 26kB ( 3x8k +2k on CPU board) memory, an audio cassette tape storage interface and a
Panasonic 12 (13"?) B/W TV cobbled into a surplus DEC VT52 style case that I bought
from that famous (in the 70's) surplus place in Massachusetts. Poly Paks*? I can't
remember the name.
I kind of wish I still had that system. But after college, I never was back near home and
eventually my parents asked if it was okay to sell it and I gave them permission. someone
packed it up and hauled it off. I hope it's still out there somewhere.
John H. Reinhardt
*Yes, Poly Paks. Found a discussion
<http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=200282>
I also bought an old vector display unit from then, there as an article in Byte about
turning one into a display and playing Space War on it. Never got it to work though.
Parents sold it off either when I was away in college or after I graduated and wasn't
at home.
8:18 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John H. Reinhardt
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:18 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
On 12/1/2016 2:22 AM, jim stephens wrote:
Very true, but didn't honestly think of that in
context of the thread,
nor have I ever had any Digital Group stuff. And does any Digital
Group cause any injuries requiring orthopedic medical attention when
you are lifting it?
thanks jim
Only borderline, I think the total weight of the system box was around 40lbs. The
standard box was a little bigger than the Altair 8800, I think. Wider by about 10"
or so. I built a bunch of their kits when I was 17/18 before I went to college. Tried to
make my own chassis and P/S but finally had to give in and buy the dg one. I had a 2.5Mhz
Z80a, 26kB ( 3x8k +2k on CPU board) memory, an audio cassette tape storage interface and a
Panasonic 12 (13"?) B/W TV cobbled into a surplus DEC VT52 style case that I bought
from that famous (in the 70's) surplus place in Massachusetts. Poly Paks*? I can't
remember the name.
I kind of wish I still had that system. But after college, I never was back near home and
eventually my parents asked if it was okay to sell it and I gave them permission. someone
packed it up and hauled it off. I hope it's still out there somewhere.
John H. Reinhardt
*Yes, Poly Paks. Found a discussion
<http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=200282>
I also bought an old vector display unit from then, there as an article in Byte about
turning one into a display and playing Space War on it. Never got it to >work though.
Parents sold it off either when I was away in college or after I graduated and wasn't
at home.
I have the Basic Box and it's not very heavy at all relatively speaking. I imagine
the Bytemaster, with the built in monitor probably weighs a fair bit. My Intellec 230
though might give a PDP a run for its money.
1:34 p.m.
From: Brad H
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM
My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for its
money.
See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP". There's no such
thing.
There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size,
weight, and capabilities.
Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with
room to spare. The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134
http://www.LivingComputers.org/
2 Dec
2 Dec
9:33 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:34 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
From: Brad H
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM
My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for its
money.
See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP". There's no such
thing.
There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and
capabilities.
Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare. The
entire PDP-10 system weighs tons.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134
Sorry.. I was being lazy.. I should have said 'a PDP 8/E'. Obviously there are
some pretty large PDP-# systems.
2:23 p.m.
On 12/02/2016 12:33 PM, Brad H wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:34 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
From: Brad H
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM
That's more than lazy! Just don't!
The PDP-8 and the PDP11 and PDP10 were beating the pants off of Intellec
2xx systems
for years before the first one was made. Remember Billy Gates used a
PDP10 cross
assembler and simulator to create BASIC. The market those DEC system
were in
demanded far more performance than the 8080 from 1974 could deliver.
An 8e running WPS was typically a multi-user system.
A PDP-8E running TSS could service 8-16 users in what appeared to them
as real time.
That was the original Boces Lirics system of 1969 a whopping three racks
of PDP-8i
The PDP-8e was a tad faster. Fast forward to the early 90s and my
Decmate-III with APU
and running OS278 likely make the I230 look poor and it was much
smaller. FYI the DMIII
is a PDP-8 on a chip (cmos 6120 cpu). The APU was a z80 at 4mhz with 64K
ram and could
still easily outrun the I230 and gave me the choice to use 0S278 (a
version of OS8),
WPS (word and list processing), and CP/M-80.
A PDP-10 (BOCES LIRICS system 1970!) serviced over 300 users. A 36bit
monster.
The CPU and the memory was eight 6ft racks long by two rows big not
including the four RP06s.
That system used the old PDP8i to keep it fed (data concentrator).
A PDP-11/23 with a 10MB disk in a single 50inch short cab running TSX or
other time sharing
system usually supported 4-8 users. It was a 16bit system at that.
They usually fit in the corner.
A Intellect 230 was handily beat by my NS*Horizon system in 1980.
That's allowing for
the fact that the I230 was 8080 powered and ran at 2mhz (2:1 handicap).
I know the
system well as I used it to develop programs for 8048/9, 8085, 8088, and
other micros
of the day till we retired it for a faster box (multibus 8086 at 8mhz in
1981).
So a knowledge of computer history and performance is is something to
consider.
Allison
My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for
its money.
See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP".
There's no such thing.
There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and
capabilities.
Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare.
The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134
http://www.LivingComputers.org/
Sorry.. I was being lazy.. I should have said
'a PDP 8/E'. Obviously there are some pretty large PDP-# systems.
30 Nov
30 Nov
12:15 p.m.
From: Brad H
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:16 AM
That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces
over time might be my
way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one.
It'd be fun to try and piece one back together. But yeah, I'm trying to
think of what I would do with it afterwards. :)
So what kind of system are you interested in? There is no such thing as a
generic "PDP". Before giving up the naming convention, DEC produced 7
different architectures all named "PDP-n" for small integers n (and designed 2
that were never built by DEC):
PDP-1: 18 bits, 6 instruction + 12 address (System Modules)
PDP-2: 24 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-3: 36 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-4: 18 bits, 5 instruction + 13 address (System Modules)
PDP-5: 12 bits (System Modules)
PDP-6: 36 bits, 9 instruction, 9 AC+index+indirect, 18 address (mainframe)
PDP-7: 18 bits (PDP-4 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-8: 12 bits (PDP-5 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-9: 18 bits (PDP-7 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-10: 36 bits (PDP-6 upwards compatible) (mainframe)
PDP-11: 16 bits (FlipChips)
PDP-12: 12 bits (PDP-8 + LINC compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-14: 12 bits (NOT compatible with the PDP-8 family) (FlipChips)
PDP-15: 18 bits (PDP-9 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-16: register-transfer module machine, with 8-, 12- or 16-bit memory as
needed for particular application design.
Later members of each family were designated by suffixes (e.g. 8/i, 8/e, 8/A
and 11/40, 11/70, etc.) or newer names (DECsystem-10, DECSYSTEM-20). The VAX
was the first new architecture from DEC not to have a PDP-n designation at all.
Rich
P. S. For most of us, I think, "DG" = Data General, not Digital Group.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
10:01 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich
Alderson
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:16 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
From: Brad H
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:16 AM
That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces
over time might
be my way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to
rebuild one.
It'd be fun to try and piece one back together.
But yeah, I'm trying
to think of what I would do with it afterwards. :)
So what kind of system are you interested in? There is no such thing as a
generic "PDP". Before giving up the naming convention, DEC produced 7
different architectures all named "PDP-n" for small integers n (and designed
2 that were never built by DEC):
PDP-1: 18 bits, 6 instruction + 12 address (System Modules)
PDP-2: 24 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-3: 36 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-4: 18 bits, 5 instruction + 13 address (System Modules)
PDP-5: 12 bits (System Modules)
PDP-6: 36 bits, 9 instruction, 9 AC+index+indirect, 18 address (mainframe)
PDP-7: 18 bits (PDP-4 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-8: 12 bits (PDP-5 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-9: 18 bits (PDP-7 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-10: 36 bits (PDP-6 upwards compatible) (mainframe)
PDP-11: 16 bits (FlipChips)
PDP-12: 12 bits (PDP-8 + LINC compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-14: 12 bits (NOT compatible with the PDP-8 family) (FlipChips)
PDP-15: 18 bits (PDP-9 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-16: register-transfer module machine, with 8-, 12- or 16-bit memory as
needed for particular application design.
Later members of each family were designated by suffixes (e.g. 8/i, 8/e, 8/A
and 11/40, 11/70, etc.) or newer names (DECsystem-10, DECSYSTEM-20). The
VAX was the first new architecture from DEC not to have a PDP-n designation
at all.
Rich
P. S. For most of us, I think, "DG" = Data General, not Digital Group.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
Can I use 'dg'? :) I think Digital Group preferred to be uncapitalized if I
remember correctly.
Regarding PDP -- I'm just sort of dipping my toes in here. I'd like
something that looks similar to an 8/E -- front panel toggle switches,
preferably from before 1975. But it's all a function of price.. if I can
find a later 11 that isn't $600+, that might be a place to start. I'm open
to suggestions. I've always been curious about DEC -- the computer shop we
once frequented in Vancouver always had stacks of DEC stuff among its used
computer inventory. VAX stations mostly. But I never got around to buying
anything. Was too busy collecting classic Macs.
1 Dec
1 Dec
4:28 a.m.
On 11/30/16 3:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
From: Brad H
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:16 AM
Rich,
You missed posting approximate volumes made. Some of those like the
PDP1,4, 6 and 12
have very low production volumes.
Yes on DG, however there are use that did play with Digital Group.
A Digital group system fully bown out is likely about 60 pounds or so.
They were on a par with other S100 8080 systems for size and weight.
Allison
That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in
pieces over time might be my
way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one.
It'd be fun to try and piece one back together. But yeah, I'm trying to
think of what I would do with it afterwards. :)
So what kind of system are you
interested in? There is no such thing as a
generic "PDP". Before giving up the naming convention, DEC produced 7
different architectures all named "PDP-n" for small integers n (and designed 2
that were never built by DEC):
PDP-1: 18 bits, 6 instruction + 12 address (System Modules)
PDP-2: 24 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-3: 36 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-4: 18 bits, 5 instruction + 13 address (System Modules)
PDP-5: 12 bits (System Modules)
PDP-6: 36 bits, 9 instruction, 9 AC+index+indirect, 18 address (mainframe)
PDP-7: 18 bits (PDP-4 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-8: 12 bits (PDP-5 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-9: 18 bits (PDP-7 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-10: 36 bits (PDP-6 upwards compatible) (mainframe)
PDP-11: 16 bits (FlipChips)
PDP-12: 12 bits (PDP-8 + LINC compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-14: 12 bits (NOT compatible with the PDP-8 family) (FlipChips)
PDP-15: 18 bits (PDP-9 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-16: register-transfer module machine, with 8-, 12- or 16-bit memory as
needed for particular application design.
Later members of each family were designated by suffixes (e.g. 8/i, 8/e, 8/A
and 11/40, 11/70, etc.) or newer names (DECsystem-10, DECSYSTEM-20). The VAX
was the first new architecture from DEC not to have a PDP-n designation at all.
Rich
P. S. For most of us, I think, "DG" = Data General, not Digital Group.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
30 Nov
30 Nov
9:18 a.m.
On 11/30/16 9:07 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's
primarily to amuse me, not to
create anything useful.
And, like an old car, it's nice to have something around you can understand
down to the gate or transistor level. You haven't been able to do that with
a computer designed in the last 25 years or more.
Because of that, they aren't going to be any ASICs in them, which make 'em
BIG. The are also going to be full of cables and connectors, and all sorts of
other things that corrode and get flakey, which doesn't happen in the same
scale as more integrated computers.
But as a device you'd, say, want to do serious development on, or expect to
run without a crash for weeks or months, not so much so.
2712
days inactive
2714
days old
15 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ajp166＠verizon.net -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
johnhreinhardt＠yahoo.com -
jwsmail＠jwsss.com -
RichA＠livingcomputers.org -
vintagecomputer＠bettercomputing.net