1 Aug
2005
1 Aug
'05
6:54 a.m.
Just
curious...has there ever been a device available to anyone's
knowledge that functions like an analog phone line and
allows transmission via
TCPIP? 
1 Aug
1 Aug
12:37 p.m.
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, James Fogg wrote:
Get an old phone system with analog station cards (for POTS phones) and
stick a system with a modem on one extension with it set to autoanswer
and call it with a modem from another extension.
I'm thinking back to the original intent of this. Is it that the guy
wanting to do this (sorry, forgot who you are) wants to put a computer
running a BBS on the internet? If so, all these suggestions are overkill.
The best one I've heard so far is to get something that fools the computer
into thinking it's connected to a modem when in actuality it's connected
to some sort of terminal server that emulates ring signals, etc. This is
also something that is somewhat easy to write with the write serial port
driver software. A linux box will do.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Just curious...has there ever been a device available
to anyone's
knowledge that functions like an analog phone line and
allows transmission via
TCPIP? 
1:23 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I'm thinking back to the original intent of this. Is it that the guy
wanting to do this (sorry, forgot who you are) wants to put a computer
running a BBS on the internet? If so, all these suggestions are overkill.
The best one I've heard so far is to get something that fools the computer
into thinking it's connected to a modem when in actuality it's connected
to some sort of terminal server that emulates ring signals, etc. This is
also something that is somewhat easy to write with the write serial port
driver software. A linux box will do.
Oh. Now I get it.
I'd find an old terminal server which has "reverse telnet". An Xylogics
Annex would do nicely. Then connect the serial ports on the annex
directly to the BBS box, removing the modems. No need for the modems...
(unless, of course, they are somehow wired in, in which case you'll need
another bank of modems and a bank of the phone line eliminators we
talked about earlier)
And, as "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote (whoever that is :-), you can
use any linux box to do this. This is true, but you might need a
multiport serial card and some software to 'automagically' connect the
tcp port to the serial port. I'd be suprised if that software didn't
already exist...
-brad
2:23 p.m.
On Monday 01 August 2005 12:23, Brad Parker wrote:
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
If anyone here needs or wants some Xylogics Annex Three boxes (64 serial
ports per box), I've got at least two available, with some of the
serial breakout cables.
Another option would be a DECserver that does reverse LAT, or a Xyplex
terminal server, which is very much like a clone of a DECserver, only
it has telnet capability in addition to LAT (and telnet is a nice thing
to have ;).
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
I'm thinking back to the original intent of
this. Is it that the
guy wanting to do this (sorry, forgot who you are) wants to put a
computer running a BBS on the internet? If so, all these
suggestions are overkill. The best one I've heard so far is to get
something that fools the computer into thinking it's connected to a
modem when in actuality it's connected to some sort of terminal
server that emulates ring signals, etc. This is also something
that is somewhat easy to write with the write serial port driver
software. A linux box will do.
Oh. Now I get it.
I'd find an old terminal server which has "reverse telnet". An
Xylogics Annex would do nicely. Then connect the serial ports on the
annex directly to the BBS box, removing the modems. No need for the
modems...
4:30 p.m.
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Brad Parker wrote:
I'd find an old terminal server which has
"reverse telnet". An Xylogics
Annex would do nicely. Then connect the serial ports on the annex
directly to the BBS box, removing the modems. No need for the modems...
Hi Brad.
Correct.
(unless, of course, they are somehow wired in, in
which case you'll need
another bank of modems and a bank of the phone line eliminators we
talked about earlier)
The only stuff I've seen that does this is old US Robotics modem banks.
Even a relatively easy (and cheap) to source Livingstone PortMaster will
work for you. I have one that I'm keeping for this very purpose (putting
old computers online for public tinkering).
And, as "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote
(whoever that is :-), you can
Probably some dork.
use any linux box to do this. This is true, but you
might need a
multiport serial card and some software to 'automagically' connect the
tcp port to the serial port. I'd be suprised if that software didn't
already exist...
It does exist: it's called getty ;) And you could just use your standard
serial ports. I have a great multi-port (8) ISA serial card that's super
easy to configure. It uses standard 16550s mapped to standard base
addresses and uses one interrupt. You can even chain up to 4(?) more
cards to it that share the same interrupt. It has an external connector
(something like a DD-50) that then plugs into a breakout box where you
have all 8 ports as DB-25s. It's a generic board and I don't have any
info off-hand to help you find one but if anyone's interested then e-mail
me and I'll find out where you might be able to order one. I'm sure they
turn up on eBay from time to time as well.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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2 Aug
2 Aug
10:20 a.m.
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I have a great multi-port (8) ISA serial card
that's super
easy to configure. It uses standard 16550s mapped to standard base
addresses and uses one interrupt. You can even chain up to 4(?) more
cards to it that share the same interrupt. It has an external connector
(something like a DD-50) that then plugs into a breakout box where you
have all 8 ports as DB-25s. It's a generic board and I don't have any
info off-hand to help you find one but if anyone's interested then e-mail
me and I'll find out where you might be able to order one. I'm sure they
turn up on eBay from time to time as well.
It's called the Decision Computer Group PC-COM ISA Bus 8 port RS-232/422
card. Here's some technical info:
http://www.thegreenhouse.us/th99/i/C-D/52585.htm
http://www.thegreenhouse.us/th99/i/C-D/52584.htm
Here's their website apparently:
http://www.qna2002.com/
Not sure how you're supposed to order one. I used to buy mine through the
same company that wrote the C serial port library I used.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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5 Aug
5 Aug
3:24 a.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
I'm thinking back to the original intent of this.
Is it that the guy
wanting to do this (sorry, forgot who you are) wants to put a computer
running a BBS on the internet? If so, all these suggestions are overkill.
Agreed, but I would KILL to be able to play modem games again -- not BBS games,
but games for which the only method of playing against someone else was via
modem or null-modem cable. Dan Buntin's Modem Wars comes to mind. Some games
even let you play against players with completely different hardware, such as
Populus (PC vs. Amiga worked), Armor Alley (PC vs. Macintosh worked), etc.
I think that that kind of emulation is not going to happen... unless I get off
my ass and write it myself. I think the only practical way to get it to happen
is to come up with some sort of protocol and/or document it fully with portable
source code, and then implement it in some emulators, like WinUAE and DOSBOX,
and finally demonstrate a working 2-player game using the "modem" setting in
the game, but going over TCP/IP.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
5:06 a.m.
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote:
Agreed, but I would KILL to be able to play modem
games again -- not BBS
games, but games for which the only method of playing against someone
else was via modem or null-modem cable. Dan Buntin's Modem Wars comes to
mind. Some games even let you play against players with completely
different hardware, such as Populus (PC vs. Amiga worked), Armor Alley
(PC vs. Macintosh worked), etc.
Yo Leonard!
Never heard of Modem Wars for some reason. Sounds intriguing.
I once did a legal research project on this (in fact, it was my first).
Some guy patented multi-node, multi-player networked video games (i.e.
everything on the internet today) back in 1982. The task was to find
prior art to prove that this sort of game has been arounded prior to 1982.
Of course Mazewar on the Imlac was a major patent killer (and mine came in
handy for the attorneys). We also located some other interesting
microcomputer examples.
The first was TelePong for the Apple ][ (1978). The attorney found
reference to it while going through an old issue of Byte or something in
my collection. It was a demo that got sent with the then new Apple
Communications Card. You could play an opponent at Pong at another Apple
][ either through a null modem or over a modem.
The second was Commbat for the TRS-80 (1980). Published by Adventure
International (Scott Adams). You played against an opponent on another
TRS-80 connected by a serial (or something). The game on one machine (the
master) generated a terrain map and then transmitted the map to the other
computer. You then had to play "capture the flag".
The third was an unwitting clone of Commbat. It was called Flash Attack!
(1982) and ran on the PET. It was exactly the same thing as Commport. A
map would be generated on the "master" computer (as designated by a
certain pin on the user port being set a certain way) and then transmitted
to the other computer. Then play would begin and each player on each PET
would navigate their tank to the other side of the map where the
opponent's base was. The object was to destroy the opponent's base.
All these and more are cool early networked microcomputer games. Besides
Maze War, the other contender vying for "first" networked computer game is
Spasim:
http://www.geocities.com/jim_bowery/spasim.html
(Somewhat pompous)
However, I've found evidence (in the way of memos) of multiplayer
networked games (though not graphical based) being played on JOSS (I think
running on the Johnniac? It's not clear...) in the late 1960s. Will pick
up research on that when I have time.
I think that that kind of emulation is not going to
happen... unless I
get off my ass and write it myself. I think the only practical way to
get it to happen is to come up with some sort of protocol and/or
document it fully with portable source code, and then implement it in
some emulators, like WinUAE and DOSBOX, and finally demonstrate a
working 2-player game using the "modem" setting in the game, but going
over TCP/IP.
Doom would be a good test case.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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1:49 p.m.
I shouldn't write when I'm high.
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
The third was an unwitting clone of Commbat. It was
called Flash Attack!
(1982) and ran on the PET. It was exactly the same thing as Commport. A
^^^^^^^^
I meant Commbat.
Also, to clarify, the author of Flash Attack! wrote it claiming she had no
prior knowledge of Commbat. According to her, it was entirely a
coincidence that her game was almost a clone of Commbat. Flash Attack!
was for the PET and Commbat for the TRS-80. Back then, most people were
wedded to their platform of choice, so this is entirely plausible. Also,
from what I recall, work on Flash Attack! began prior
to the publication
of Commbat and evolved for several years until Flash Attack! was
published
in 1982.
I should add that I have all three games I mentioned (TelePong, Commbat,
Flash Attack!) I got TelePong and FlashAttack! working before the
plaintiff (the patent holder) decided to settle with EA (my client's
client). But not before the patent holder had already gotten a settlement
out of I believe Sega and some other companies. EA should have fought
this and had the patent over-turned, but as these things go, it was
cheaper to settle and let this idiot go on to sue some other poor schlub
of a company.
TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even
to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that
Apple sent along with their Communications Card. I have an original Flash
Attack! tape and custom cable (thanks to Larry Anderson who provided
both). I managed to find a new, unopened copy of Commbat on the internet
for $10. It's also on cassette. I never got to play with Commbat to
compare it with Flash Attack! One of these days...
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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2:35 p.m.
And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake:
TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even
to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that
Apple sent along with their Communications Card. I have an original Flash
Attack! tape and custom cable (thanks to Larry Anderson who provided
both). I managed to find a new, unopened copy of Commbat on the internet
for $10. It's also on cassette. I never got to play with Commbat to
compare it with Flash Attack! One of these days...
How much memory does Flash Attack! require? Do you know if it will work
on all the PETs? Is it possible to hookup more then two PETs at a time?
Thanks,
Bryan
2:50 p.m.
On 8/5/05, Bryan Pope <bpope at wordstock.com> wrote:
How much memory does Flash Attack! require?
8K? If not, 16K should work.
Do you know if it will work on all the PETs?
I don't remember what ROMs it was for, but it is old enough that it
was probably for BASIC 2.0 ROMs (not original chicklet-key PETs, and
not 4032s and 8032s). There may or may not be a BASIC 4.0 version.
I never owned the program, but I did have a PET back in those days,
and the article in Byte describing the game. Later, I hooked up my
PET to my new C-64 and invented my own version of the cable and the
byte primitives. I didn't have a disk drive or a serial port on the
PET, so it was a great way to move data between the two machines.
Is it possible to hookup more then two PETs at a time?
No. It uses a user-port-to-user-port cable. The user port doesn't
use multi-drop or open-collector buffers, so you can only have one
machine on each end of the wire.
Theoretically, one could design a ring structure to hook A to B, B to
C, and C to A, then invent some sort of token passing mechanism, but
the Flash Attack cable is strictly A to B.
-ethan
4:10 p.m.
New subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?)
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote:
We did run it on original chiclet-key PETs. I now remember Larry saying
it wouldn't work on the newer PETs, which is why I had to borrow one of
his. I'll have to check memory requirements again. I think it is
probably stamped on the tape.
Right.
--
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Do you know if
it will work on all the PETs?
I don't remember what ROMs it was for, but it is old enough that it
was probably for BASIC 2.0 ROMs (not original chicklet-key PETs, and not 4032s and 8032s). There may or may not be a
BASIC 4.0 version.
I never owned the program, but I did have a PET back in those days,
and the article in Byte describing the game. Later, I hooked up my
Right, and the article also described how to make the cable.
PET to my new C-64 and invented my own version of the
cable and the
byte primitives. I didn't have a disk drive or a serial port on the
PET, so it was a great way to move data between the two machines.
Neat.
Is it possible
to hookup more then two PETs at a time?
No. It uses a user-port-to-user-port cable. The user port doesn't
use multi-drop or open-collector buffers, so you can only have one
machine on each end of the wire.
Theoretically, one could design a ring structure to hook A to B, B to
C, and C to A, then invent some sort of token passing mechanism, but
the Flash Attack cable is strictly A to B.
4:08 p.m.
New subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?)
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Bryan Pope wrote:
And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake:
I believe it runs on an original 4K PET. At least that's what I think I
was using for the demo (the attorneys wanted the most original setup
possible). Since I only have one original PET I borrowed one from Larry
Anderson and we got it up and running on both. I'm not sure now if both
or either were upgraded to 8K but I think it's safe to assume they are 4K.
Next time I see the tape (it's around here somewhere :) I'll try to make a
digital image of it. Does anyone know if the cassette format on the PET
is compatible with something more modern like the C64? That way it'd be
easier to transfer it to the C64, then from the C64 to a PC (by way of an
X1541 cable).
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even
to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that
Apple sent along with their Communications Card. I have an original Flash
Attack! tape and custom cable (thanks to Larry Anderson who provided
both). I managed to find a new, unopened copy of Commbat on the internet
for $10. It's also on cassette. I never got to play with Commbat to
compare it with Flash Attack! One of these days...
How much memory does Flash Attack! require? Do you know if it will work
on all the PETs? Is it possible to hookup more then two PETs at a time?
7:43 p.m.
New subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?)
On 8/5/05, Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> wrote:
Next time I see the tape (it's around here
somewhere :) I'll try to make a
digital image of it. Does anyone know if the cassette format on the PET
is compatible with something more modern like the C64?
The cassette formats are compatible, but the memory maps are not.
What that means is a) BASIC programs start at $0400 on the PET and
$0800 on the C-64, and b) you can't do the trick of starting your
mixed machine-language/BASIC program at $033A and have both load at
once.
You can move the location of screen memory around on the C-64 and get
it away from $0400, and move the start of BASIC pointers, etc., to
more closely resemble the PET map. If the program is 100% BASIC, then
you could load it there and use some other transfer technique to get
it off. If you have the "PET Emulator" for the C-64 handy, it does
all the pointer fiddling.
If you have a BASIC 2.0 PET handy (I wouldn't recommend this with an
original PET) and a 3040 or 4040 disk drive, you could load the
program on the PET, save it to diskette, then move the diskette to a
1541 and pull the program in with an X1541 cable. There were also
programs back in the day to migrate tape programs right to disk. This
would be a good path if you had a whole PET setup.
Unfortunately, bit-level tape compatibility doesn't encompass the whole problem.
-ethan
10:57 p.m.
New subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?)
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote:
The cassette formats are compatible, but the memory
maps are not.
What that means is a) BASIC programs start at $0400 on the PET and
$0800 on the C-64, and b) you can't do the trick of starting your
mixed machine-language/BASIC program at $033A and have both load at
once.
Okay, so how about just being able to load it as a straight binary stream
into some area of the C64 memory and then saving it to disk, then
transferring the image to a PC?
Possible?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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11:29 p.m.
New subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?)
Ethan wrote....
> The cassette formats are compatible, but the
memory maps are not.
> What that means is a) BASIC programs start at $0400 on the PET and
> $0800 on the C-64, and b) you can't do the trick of starting your
> mixed machine-language/BASIC program at $033A and have both load at
> once.
To which Sellam replied...
Okay, so how about just being able to load it as a
straight binary stream
into some area of the C64 memory and then saving it to disk, then
transferring the image to a PC?
Possible?
Well, you may never find out, seeing as you just really stomped on the
person most likely to have a good answer to this.
Jay
6 Aug
6 Aug
2:04 p.m.
New subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?)
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Jay West wrote:
Ethan wrote....
Quite frankly, with good reason.
--
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> The cassette formats are compatible, but the
memory maps are not.
> What that means is a) BASIC programs start at $0400 on the PET and
> $0800 on the C-64, and b) you can't do the trick of starting your
> mixed machine-language/BASIC program at $033A and have both load at
> once.
To which Sellam replied...
Okay, so how about just being able to load it as
a straight binary stream
into some area of the C64 memory and then saving it to disk, then
transferring the image to a PC?
Possible?
Well, you may never find out, seeing as you just really stomped on the
person most likely to have a good answer to this. 
4:01 p.m.
New subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?)
If you have a BASIC 2.0 PET handy (I wouldn't
recommend this with an
original PET) and a 3040 or 4040 disk drive, you could load the
program on the PET, save it to diskette, then move the diskette to a
1541 and pull the program in with an X1541 cable. There were also
programs back in the day to migrate tape programs right to disk. This
would be a good path if you had a whole PET setup.
Alternatively you could connect the PET disk drive to a PC (or other
computer) with a GPIB/IEEE-488 interface. The command set for the
Commodore drives is well-documented, it shouldn't be hard to write a
program to read the file off the disk. I know somebody who saves/loads
programes from his Tekky 4052 on a PET disk drive...
Of course 1541's are probably easier for most people to find than machine
with GPIB ports...
-tony
5 Aug
5 Aug
6:56 p.m.
TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple
Communications Card (prior even
to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that
What did the COmmunications Card consist of? Checking one of my boxes of
Apple ][ bits revealed a Super Serial Card (6551-based) and a Serial Card
(a bit-banger, a few TTL chips and a couple of PROMs, P7 and P8). It's
hard to see how you could have less than that.
Actually, I must post details of the odd Apple ][ cards I've got. I know
I've got some kind of speech input card somewhere.
-tony
10:55 p.m.
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
I don't have the card to hand but I have the manual here. It's real
simple, like the Disk ][ controller. Two 74161, a 7474, a 6309, a
6850, and a DP8304.
It can do up to 4800 baud.
--
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TelePong
requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even
to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that
What did the COmmunications Card consist of? Checking one of my boxes of
Apple ][ bits revealed a Super Serial Card (6551-based) and a Serial Card
(a bit-banger, a few TTL chips and a couple of PROMs, P7 and P8). It's
hard to see how you could have less than that.
6 Aug
6 Aug
4:11 p.m.
What did the
COmmunications Card consist of? Checking one of my boxes of
Apple ][ bits revealed a Super Serial Card (6551-based) and a Serial Card
(a bit-banger, a few TTL chips and a couple of PROMs, P7 and P8). It's
hard to see how you could have less than that.
I don't have the card to hand but I have the manual here. It's real
simple, like the Disk ][ controller. Two 74161, a 7474, a 6309, a
6850, and a DP8304. 
5:31 p.m.
The Apple Serial Card I have doesn't have any
UART, or shift
registers, or anything like that. Just a few TTL chips to make
a 1 bit I/O port [...]
This card was used mainly (but not exclusively!) to drive serial
printers. I think the firmware is expressly half-duplex.
A far more common and useful card is the slightly later "Super
Serial" which has a 6551 UART IIRC.
I don't know of any communication programs which supported the
non-super card.
I think there may have been a revision to the original UARTless
serial card's firmware that allowed it to detect flow-control
characters from the printer (e.g. XON/XOFF) even though it
was half-duplex.
Tim.
9:16 p.m.
The Apple Serial Card I have doesn't have any
UART, or shift
registers, or anything like that. Just a few TTL chips to make
a 1 bit I/O port [...]
This card was used mainly (but not exclusively!) to drive serial
printers. I think the firmware is expressly half-duplex.
A far more common and useful card is the slightly later "Super
Serial" which has a 6551 UART IIRC.
Correct. I am not sure it's more common over here, though. I must have 3
or 4 of the bit-bangers, one Super Serial card and a number of 3rd party
cards based on the 6850 or 6551. Some of the latter also had parallel
ports (6821-based).
I think there may have been a revision to the original
UARTless
serial card's firmware that allowed it to detect flow-control
characters from the printer (e.g. XON/XOFF) even though it
was half-duplex.
The P8A PROM IIRC. You lost the block-transfer operations (which nobody
ever used...). It wasn't XON/XOFF, it was ETX/ACK or something, though.
It was certainly required for using the card with that Sprint 5.
-tony
Tim.
8 Aug
8 Aug
10:41 p.m.
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
So what is suprising that the Apple 'went
backwards' from a card with
hardware serial conversion to a bit-banger.
Maybe they didn't? What's the copyright date in the Apple Serial Card
manual? I'll check the one in the Communications Card manual.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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9 Aug
9 Aug
6:16 p.m.
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
You are going to love this...
I can't find the manual for the bit-banger card (I know I have it
_somewhere_). I did find one of the actual cards, the PCB etch and the
PROMs are copyright 1978.
I also found the manual for the Communication Card you have. It's _also_
copyright 1978, the date on the schematic and source listing in the
manual are 1978 too...
Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary.
-tony
So what is suprising that the Apple 'went
backwards' from a card with
hardware serial conversion to a bit-banger.
Maybe they didn't? What's the copyright date in the Apple Serial Card
manual? I'll check the one in the Communications Card manual.
8:08 p.m.
Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary.
Probably true. I remember in the late 70's timeframe that the
bit-banger one was often sold by shops along with serial printers,
and a fair number of those were sold.
What card did Apple use to drive the Silentype? Was it the bit-bang
serial card we're talking about, or something special? I remember
friends who called it "the Silentype card".
Tim.
10 Aug
10 Aug
10:55 a.m.
On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
You are going to love this...
I can't find the manual for the bit-banger card (I know I have it
_somewhere_). I did find one of the actual cards, the PCB etch and the
PROMs are copyright 1978.
I also found the manual for the Communication Card you have. It's _also_
copyright 1978, the date on the schematic and source listing in the
manual are 1978 too...
Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary.
That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant
for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card
was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications.
I'll try to remember to check my manuals later today and see if each
manual indicates the intended use of each card.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
So what is suprising that the Apple 'went
backwards' from a card with
hardware serial conversion to a bit-banger.
Maybe they didn't? What's the copyright date in the Apple Serial Card
manual? I'll check the one in the Communications Card manual.
6:21 p.m.
Sounds like
the cards were approximately contemporary.
That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant
for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card
was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications.
I'll try to remember to check my manuals later today and see if each
manual indicates the intended use of each card.
The bit-banger card also supports current loop operation, and the manual
gives instructions for linking it to an ASR33 (!).
-tony
12 Aug
12 Aug
2:38 a.m.
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Yes. The bit-banger is fairly usless for serial input, although it's fine
for output. I suspect it was mainly used for driving a serial printer (I
first came across it with a Qume Sprint 5 hooked up to it), and Apple
used ETX/ACK protocol _because_ you then know when the peripheral is
possibly going to send something (unlike XON/XOFF when the peripheral
could send said characters at any time).
Ok, here's what each manual says (note the publication dates):
Communications Interface Card Installation and Operating Manual (10/78)
These are the fundamental abilities of the APPLE Communications Interface,
using the nearly universal RS232 standard:
1. Input for the APPLE II can be taken from an external device, instead of
Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary.
That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant
for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card
was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications. from the APPLE's keyboard.
2. Output from the APPLE II can be sent to an external device, to the
APPLE's TV screen, or to both.
3. The APPLE II can be used as a terminal, in full-duplex mode or
half-duplex mode, at 300 baud or 110 baud[*]. It can be put into (and
taken out of) terminal modem, either from the APPLE keyboard or from the
external device.
4. The BREAK signal can be sent from the keyboard.
[*] My note: There are instructions in the back for modifying the card for
1200/300 baud operation or 4800/1200 baud operation.
Serial Interface Card Installation and Operating Manual (3/79)
These are the fundamental abilities of the APPLE Serial Interface, using
the nearly universal RS232 standard:
1. Output from the APPLE II can be sent to a serial printer or other
external serial device, to the APPLE's TV screen, or to both. The Serial
Interface can supply the necessary line-feeds with carriage returns, etc.
2. Input for the APPLE II can be taken either from an external device or
from the APPLE's keyboard, or from both
simultaneously.
3. The APPLE II can handle half-duplex communications at rates from 75 to
19,200 baud, in both directions, with ap rinter, another APPLE,. a
terminal, modem or other RS232 external device.
4. The Serial Interface can also be connected for current-loop operation
with a Teletype.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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15 Aug
15 Aug
2:27 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Yes. The bit-banger is fairly usless for serial input, although it's fine
for output. I suspect it was mainly used for driving a serial printer (I
Can someone clarify what "bit-banger" means and why it was different from a
contemporary serial interface card?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary.
That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant
for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card
was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications.
2:35 p.m.
On Monday 15 August 2005 13:27, Jim Leonard wrote:
Can someone clarify what "bit-banger" means
and why it was different
from a contemporary serial interface card?
Bit-banger refers to in essence, a software UART... you turn on/off the
serial port line directly via software, with the appropriate timing, as
opposed to using a hardware UART to do the serial<->parallel
conversion.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
5:56 p.m.
Yes. The
bit-banger is fairly usless for serial input, although it's fine
for output. I suspect it was mainly used for driving a serial printer (I
Can someone clarify what "bit-banger" means and why it was different from a
contemporary serial interface card?
2:25 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/modem-wars has more info. Another Dan Bunten
creation.
Agreed, but I
would KILL to be able to play modem games again -- not BBS
games, but games for which the only method of playing against someone
else was via modem or null-modem cable. Dan Buntin's Modem Wars comes to
mind. Some games even let you play against players with completely
different hardware, such as Populus (PC vs. Amiga worked), Armor Alley
(PC vs. Macintosh worked), etc.
Never heard of Modem Wars for some reason. Sounds intriguing. The second was Commbat for the TRS-80 (1980).
Published by Adventure
International (Scott Adams). You played against an opponent on another
TRS-80 connected by a serial (or something). The game on one machine (the
master) generated a terrain map and then transmitted the map to the other
computer. You then had to play "capture the flag".
Substitute "capture the flag" with "stratego" and you've got Modem
Wars. ;-)
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
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