New subject: person in the sf bay area that can program a 16R4

1 Sep 2010

 Hi,

Very interested, we should make a direct contact ...

With best regards

Gerhard

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im
Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 02. September 2010 05:03
An: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 85, Issue 3

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
      replica  (Chuck Guzis)
   2. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
      replica (Keith M)
   3. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
      (Tony Duell)
   4. Re: First digital camera (Fred Cisin)
   5. Re: First digital camera (Jerry Wright)
   6. RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (Fred Cisin)
   7. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (geoffrey oltmans)
   8. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (Ben)
   9. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (Ben)
  10. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (Sridhar Ayengar)
  11. DRTS-11 (E. Groenenberg)
  12. RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (Chuck Guzis)
  13. Re: DRTS-11 (Chuck Guzis)
  14. RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (Rich Alderson)
  15. RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (Fred Cisin)
  16. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (William Donzelli)
  17. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (Fred Cisin)
  18. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
      (Philip Pemberton)
  19. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
      (Dennis Boone)
  20. Lots of TTL chips (David Betz)
  21. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
      (Philip Pemberton)
  22. Re: Lots of TTL chips (Sridhar Ayengar)
  23. Re: Lots of TTL chips (Ethan Dicks)
  24. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
      (Chuck Guzis)
  25. Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
      (jim s)
  26. Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
      (jim s)
  27. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
      replica (Eric Smith)
  28. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
      replica (Eric Smith)
  29. Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
      replica (Eric Smith)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:08:57 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
	replica 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7E2639.24859.57E3A2 at cclist.sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

In the eval kits, the Spartan 6 kits seem to offer a significantly 
higher bang-for-the-buck than the Spartan 3 ones.  

What am I missing?

--Chuck

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 13:12:54 -0400
From: Keith M <keithvz at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
	replica
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4C7E8996.2060506 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 9/1/2010 12:04 PM, Richard wrote:
...
  In article<4C7DEE9F.5020807 at brouhaha.com>,
      Eric Smith<eric at brouhaha.com>   writes:

  Richard wrote about the Xilinx Spartan-3E:
   I believe the 3E is for embedded designs, i.e.
automotive  applications, etc.

 No, they do have special parts rated for an automotive temperature
 range, but that's not what the 3E is.  All Spartan FPGAs are
 general-purpose FPGAs.  I have no idea what would be special in an FPGA
 for an embedded design; nearly all FPGA designs are embedded, so I think
 there would be no real market for an FPGA that was NOT suitable for
 embedded designs. 
 Well, when I try to find out information on Spartan 3 FPGA's on
 Xilinx's web site, all the web sections have "Automotive" plastered
 all over them.

 Perhaps they are just trying to market to that segment. 
Maybe.  Did you see my other post?

There are multiple versions of the Spartan-3E.

PDF page 2 here

http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds635.pdf

outlines the differences between the commercial XC version and the 
automotive XA version.

The XA automotive version is designed to be low-cost but has wide-range 
temperature support and has reliability qualifications.  Otherwise it 
offers a LIMITED feature set, limited speed grades --- in comparison to 
the full commercial-grade Spartan-3E (that I own)

There are no (AFAICT) specific automotive "features" that make it an 
extra special fit.

Keith

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:48:19 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <m1OqQGF-000J3uC at p850ug1>
Content-Type: text/plain

...

 Hi guys,

 I'm toying with the idea of doing an MFM/RLL hard drive bolt-on for the=20
 DiscFerret (seeing as the DF hardware is basically done now -- I'm just=20
 doing a final design check before I send the PCBs off for manufacturing).

 Problem is, I don't have a drive to play with.

 Does anyone have any or all of the following kicking around?

    - MFM or RLL hard drives. I could do with one or two of these;=20
 anything's good, as long as it has an ST506-style interface (that is,=20
 straight MFM/RLL with no funny business) and is believed to work. I'm=20
 ideally aiming for something "of reputable manufacture" -- so not a=20
 Kalok Octagon! 
Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such drives, but I have even 
more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare'

...

    - Cable kit for the above. So that's the Data and Control cables --=20
 edge connector to IDC plug. 
Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So is IDC ribbon 
cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for 
other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that 
it's taken me to type this.

...
     - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive. Anything
goes here -- e.g.=20
 Western Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20 
What do you want as the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can 
find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with?

-tony

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Subject: Re: First digital camera
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20100901101623.T21871 at shell.lmi.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

As always on this list, ANY use of the word "first" is subject to
challenge.

On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
...
  Hi
 Somewhat offtopic (and old), but interesting. Does the d|i|g|i|t|a|l
 cassette mean that it is a DECcassette they are using?
 http://pluggedin.kodak.com/post/?id=687843 
It may very well have been the first digital camera from Kodak, or the
first to meet certain completely arbitrary further restrictions (of
weight, size, power source, image quality, etc.).  But it (1975) was most
certainly NOT the first digital camera.

In 1970, I saw a Rube-Goldberg homemade system that used an almost
unmodified Sony video-camera feeding its signal to a digitizer in
the case of a gutted CV series recorder.  Is that invalidated because it
was two pieces connected with a cable?  When I saw it, the tinkerers were
putting together an interface to a crude fax machine.
(Fax machines have been around a LONG time.)

It is also amusing to note that in spite of this very nice "proof of
concept", a decade later Kodak was betting the company on chemical capture
with digital storage ("photo-CD" and later "picture-CD")

Now, Kodak is phasing out a lot of their chemical products :-(

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Wright <g-wright at att.net>
Subject: Re: First digital camera
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <811884.32138.qm at web83805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Don't know about the Cassette, but they used a Motorola
Exorciser to render the image. (6800)? Picture is missing the
computer? interface and most likely floppy disk system.

- Jerry 

--- On Wed, 9/1/10, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> wrote:

From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: First digital camera
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Wednesday, September 1, 2010, 12:06 AM

Hi

Somewhat offtopic (and old), but interesting. Does the d|i|g|i|t|a|l 
cassette mean that it is a DECcassette they are using?

http://pluggedin.kodak.com/post/?id=687843

Cheers,
Pontus.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:14:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20100901111320.J21871 at shell.lmi.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

...
  I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive.
 See should know that that McIntosh amp is
 quite valuable. 
"Wow!  An amplifier named after the computer!"
"I wonder why Apple let them do that"

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 11:20:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: geoffrey oltmans <oltmansg at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <250203.77282.qm at web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer company alone for so long.
;)

________________________________
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 1:14:25 PM
Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA

...
  I'd love to have that dual 8 inch drive.
 See should know that that McIntosh amp is
 quite valuable. 
"Wow!  An amplifier named after the computer!"
"I wonder why Apple let them do that"

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:26:48 -0600
From: Ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7E9AE8.6010801 at jetnet.ab.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Fred Cisin wrote:
...
   I'd love
to have that dual 8 inch drive.
 See should know that that McIntosh amp is
 quite valuable. 
 "Wow!  An amplifier named after the computer!"
 "I wonder why Apple let them do that" 
I dare you to hook that to a IPOD output and
headphones. :-)
Ben.

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:29:49 -0600
From: Ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7E9B9D.9060705 at jetnet.ab.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

geoffrey oltmans wrote:
...
  I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer
company alone for so long. ;)
Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file 
would both count as music MEDIA.

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:34:35 -0400
From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7E9CBB.6070607 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Ben wrote:
> geoffrey oltmans wrote:
>...
  I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer
company alone for so >> long. ;)
> Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file
> would both count as music MEDIA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer

Peace...  Sridhar

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:13:13 +0200
From: "E. Groenenberg" <quapla at xs4all.nl>
Subject: DRTS-11
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID:
	<9e1a269a118c7f0bd11afe800ede49d5.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

I have found a manual which is called the 'DRTS-11 Reference Manual'
(Distributed Real Time System) and it talks about a pieces of software
which is placed on top of RT-11. According to the description it optimized
for I/O and uses 2 systems. One being the 'I/O processor', the other being
the DRTS-11 system.

The introduction reads :

This document describes version V04.00 of the DRTS-11 multiprocessor
operating system, and the Qnector processor link.'

Apparently this software was made by 'Westfries Systems BV' and/or
'Viking Computer Corp.'

Interesting bit is that this system does need one to logon to it and
one can switch accounts.

BTW, the manual is both the 'User guide', 'Admin guide', and
'Installation
Guide'.

Does this ring a bell to anyone?

Ed
-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:33:10 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7E4806.7539.DBEE1F at cclist.sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 1 Sep 2010 at 11:14, Fred Cisin wrote:

...
  "Wow!  An amplifier named after the
computer!"
 "I wonder why Apple let them do that" 
Macintosh .NE. McIntosh

Reminds me of then-new Victor demanding that a electronics retailer 
who'd called his business "Victor Electronics" for 20 years (IIRC) 
change his business name or face the wrath of their mighty lawyers.  
That really put me off of that company.

On the other hand, I've never used hand lotion to thicken gravy  
(Wondra).

Maybe someday--when I'm very old and terribly confused and can't be 
trusted with sharp implements.

--Chuck

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:35:17 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Subject: Re: DRTS-11
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7E4885.29423.DDDDAB at cclist.sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 1 Sep 2010 at 21:13, E. Groenenberg wrote:

...

 I have found a manual which is called the 'DRTS-11 Reference Manual'
 (Distributed Real Time System) ...
 Does this ring a bell to anyone? 
Never heard of it, but I can well imagine that the name was just too 
good to resist pronouciation.  ("Dirts-11" or better yet, "Dirtsy")

--Chuck

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:41:04 -0700
From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com>
Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
	<CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCA41 at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:33 PM

...
  On 1 Sep 2010 at 11:14, Fred Cisin wrote: 
...
 > "Wow!  An amplifier named after the
computer!"
> "I wonder why Apple let them do that" 
...
  Macintosh .NE. McIntosh 
In fact, Apple *did* pay a small fee to McIntosh just to head off exactly
this kind of thing all the way back in 1984.  The payment was reported in
_BYTE_, or another similar venue.

The computer company vis-a-vis the music company has been touched on else-
where in this thread.

Thanks,
Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.PDPplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 12:55:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Subject: RE: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20100901125331.O25169 at shell.lmi.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

...
  > "Wow!  An amplifier named after the
computer!"
 > "I wonder why Apple let them do that" 
On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
...
  Macintosh .NE. McIntosh 
They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles.
It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a royalty
for using the name.

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:25:47 -0400
From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTi=-1OYH__uPx0W4Tr7XZkVM9+8gF13tgq3Ds4eM at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

...
  They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles.
 It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a royalty
 for using the name. 
A purchase of legal protection, or a PR stunt? I bet a bit of both.

--
Will

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 13:47:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20100901134219.U31991 at shell.lmi.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

...
  > They ARE close enopugh for trademark squabbles.
 > It is "common knowledge" that Apple Computer paid McIntosh Audio a
royalty
...
  > for using the name. 
On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, William Donzelli wrote:
...
  A purchase of legal protection, or a PR stunt? I bet a
bit of both. 
At the time, the news reports referred to it as having been initiated by
McIntosh Labs.

Does anybody know the details on the Apple Music deal?
At the time, it was touted as a mutual non-competition agreement.  That
would seem to preclude "iTunes".   Or were there other relevant clauses?
Or did it have an expiration date?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 21:50:58 +0100
From: Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>
Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7EBCB2.6060504 at philpem.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 31/08/10 13:48, Tony Duell wrote:
...
  Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such
drives, but I have even
 more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' 
Yeah, I've heard of a lot of folk in the same situation.

I'm actually getting slightly tempted to hunt down a 1st-gen Acorn 
Archimedes with Acorn-installed ST506 hard drive. That would give me a 
drive and a known-good controller.

...
  Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So
is IDC ribbon
 cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for
 other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that
 it's taken me to type this. 
Yes I could make a cable, but it's easier to use a ready-made one (if 
you can find one) than it is to make one up specially :)

...
 >     - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive.
Anything goes here -- e.g.=20
...
   Western
Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20 
 What do you want as the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can
 find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with? 
ISA would be fine. Basically I need something I can hook up to a PC 
(either my clunky old 386-with-ISA-IDE-controller or something more 
recent) that will allow me to format the drive, and write something to 
it. Bulk-erase by holding WR_GATE active and WR_DATA low and 
track-stepping, then format using the controller. Read the data back 
with the Ferret and see what's there (probably an MFM bitstream based on 
the Seagate format recommendations).

SCSI would be fine too, but then I'd have to buy a SCSI card... :)
And it'd have to be capable of talking to a (relatively) modern SCSI 
card (PCI interface; Adaptec AHA2940 or something like that).

At the moment, it's a "this would be really cool to have" type feature 
addition -- it doesn't seem that much harder to do MFM HDD dumping, and 
would make the DiscFerret the only imager capable of doing this at 
transition level. SMD might also be an option... later.

-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:03:49 -0400
From: Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu>
Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20100901210349.37AC2A580D2 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

...
  ISA would be fine. Basically I need something I can
hook up to a PC
 (either my clunky old 386-with-ISA-IDE-controller or something more
 recent) that will allow me to format the drive, and write something to
 it. Bulk-erase by holding WR_GATE active and WR_DATA low and
 track-stepping, then format using the controller. Read the data back
 with the Ferret and see what's there (probably an MFM bitstream based on
 the Seagate format recommendations). 
My understanding is that there's enough variation in the low level
formatting between controllers that MFM drives aren't very portable.
That could be interpreted as timing differences between models, or as
timing variations in different instances of the same model, or even
actual structure differences.  I don't know which was meant by whatever
source told me this long ago.

Even assuming it is true, it doesn't necessarily kill your concept,
though it might make implementation a hell of a lot more exciting.

De

------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:13:46 -0400
From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com>
Subject: Lots of TTL chips
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BDE2D6FB-2A41-447C-9B36-94931D64B95D at xlisper.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Most are new although I
suspect I bought them from some surplus place back in the '70s so I can't
guarantee that they all work. I'm trying to clean out a parts cabinet and I
don't want to throw these away if someone can use them. I also have a bunch
of 27xxx EPROMs. I think they are mostly 2708s but there are certainly some
2716s and 2732s. I think there are even a few 27160s. I don't have fancy
conductive foam to ship these in so you'll get a box full of stuff with
possibly some bent pins. Anyone interested?

------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 22:21:52 +0100
From: Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>
Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
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On 01/09/10 22:03, Dennis Boone wrote:
...
  My understanding is that there's enough variation
in the low level
 formatting between controllers that MFM drives aren't very portable.
 That could be interpreted as timing differences between models, or as
 timing variations in different instances of the same model, or even
 actual structure differences.  I don't know which was meant by whatever
 source told me this long ago. 
There are format differences. Different CRC implementations, different 
encoding rules (gap lengths and so on), slightly different ways of 
encoding the data (LSB-first, MSB-first, bit-sequential, staggered), 
interleaving, ......

The fun part is figuring out what those differences are, then 'teaching' 
the software how to identify them, and make sense of what's there. Same 
as I did with MagScan (which is still tied up in Licensing Hell and very 
close to being rewritten from scratch).

...
  Even assuming it is true, it doesn't necessarily
kill your concept,
 though it might make implementation a hell of a lot more exciting. 
My life would be FAR more boring without all these fun and interesting 
puzzles :)

I'm not above "blackbox" reverse engineering if it proves necessary. 
Change one byte, see what happens, that sort of thing.

-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:29:24 -0400
From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of TTL chips
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David Betz wrote:
...
  Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips? Most
are new
 although I suspect I bought them from some surplus place back in the
 '70s so I can't guarantee that they all work. I'm trying to clean out
 a parts cabinet and I don't want to throw these away if someone can
 use them. I also have a bunch of 27xxx EPROMs. I think they are
 mostly 2708s but there are certainly some 2716s and 2732s. I think
 there are even a few 27160s. I don't have fancy conductive foam to
 ship these in so you'll get a box full of stuff with possibly some
 bent pins. Anyone interested? 
Yes.  Location?

Peace...  Sridhar

------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:59:45 -0400
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Lots of TTL chips
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
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	<AANLkTi=n5924C1K10OZFTVPdonUAOn0Wu+CyumNDToSs at mail.gmail.com>
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On 9/1/10, David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.com> wrote:
...
  Does anyone want a whole slew of 74xxx TTL chips?

Yes, especially if you mean TTL vs TTL-LS.  I have a use for many TTL
parts for PDP-8 repair (7474, 7410, 7420, 7430, 7440 and several
others).

-ethan

------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:11:42 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
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On 1 Sep 2010 at 22:21, Philip Pemberton wrote:

...
  I'm not above "blackbox" reverse
engineering if it proves necessary.
 Change one byte, see what happens, that sort of thing. 
...and then after you've cracked the MFM/RLL/ARLL hard drives, you 
can tackle the various flavors of ESDI...

Fun!

--Chuck

------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:46:48 -0700
From: jim s <jws at jwsss.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Vintage electronics/HAM radio for sale-Costa Mesa, CA
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
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...
  geoffrey oltmans wrote:
  I wonder why Apple Records let an Apple Computer
company alone for so 
 long. ;)  Apple computer has better lawyers? I thought that records and a file 
 would both count as music MEDIA.

 They didn't, but the legal issues have been settled.

Jim

------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:49:13 -0700
From: jim s <jws at jwsss.com>
Subject: Re: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller
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	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
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...
 > Hi guys,
>
> I'm toying with the idea of doing an MFM/RLL hard drive bolt-on for the=20
...
 > DiscFerret (seeing as the DF hardware is basically
done now -- I'm just=20
>> doing a final design check before I send the PCBs off for manufacturing).
>>
>> Problem is, I don't have a drive to play with.
>>
>> Does anyone have any or all of the following kicking around?
>>
>>     - MFM or RLL hard drives. I could do with one or two of these;=20
>> anything's good, as long as it has an ST506-style interface (that is,=20
>> straight MFM/RLL with no funny business) and is believed to work. I'm=20
>> ideally aiming for something "of reputable manufacture" -- so not a=20
>> Kalok Octagon!
...
  Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such
drives, but I have even
 more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' >
>>     - Cable kit for the above. So that's the Data and Control cables
--=20
>> edge connector to IDC plug.
...
  Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So
is IDC ribbon
 cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for
 other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that
 it's taken me to type this. >
>
...
 >     - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive.
Anything goes here -- e.g.=20
...
   Western
Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20  What do you want as
the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can
 find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with?

 -tony

 I have an ST 225 / 238 that I have no particular use for.  I'm in Los 
Angeles.  It was a trophy at the local Goodwill Computer works, and I 
relieved them of it.  I don't know where it came from, nor do I have a 
matching system to run it on at the moment.

However it is not going to have priceless data from some system I know 
of on it, so no data or other attachment to it.  Might be nice to drain 
it, but one has to do what one has to do to develope the first of 
anything, so wiping it out isn't a real big problem.

jim

------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:46:25 -0600
From: Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com>
Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
	replica
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
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Richard wrote:
...
  Well, when I try to find out information on Spartan 3
FPGA's on
 Xilinx's web site, all the web sections have "Automotive" plastered
 all over them.

 Perhaps they are just trying to market to that segment.
     The Spartan-3 (no alpha suffix) is now an "older" family (as compared
to 
the -3E, -3A, and -6), so yes, they might only be "pushing" the 
automotive spec parts, but they are still in full production in the 
standard commercial and industrial grades.  Basically to get information 
for older devices out of the Xilinx web site requires clicking on "all 
devices" or some such thing.

In fact, even the older Spartan-XL and Spartan-2 families are in full 
production, though they are not recommended for new designs, and you 
have to use older ("archived") versions of the ISE software to develop 
for them.  (For Spartan-XL, there is no version of ISE that included HDL 
synthesis, so I definitely recommend against trying to use those for 
hobbyist development with Verilog or VHDL.)

Beyond that, even some of the XC3000 and XC4000 parts are still in 
production.  AFAIK, the only FPGA families that Xilinx have completely 
discontinued are the original XC2000 series (introduced in 1985), XC5200 
series, and XC6200 series.

Generally speaking, it only makes sense to use the most recent two 
generations of FPGAs for new designs, as the newer parts are always more 
cost-effective than the older ones, thanks largely to Moore's Law.  
Usually the only reason not to use the very latest (currently Spartan-6) 
is that the availability is not as good as the previous generation 
(Spartan-3E, -3A).

Eric

------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:53:26 -0600
From: Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com>
Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
	replica
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7F11A6.5070209 at brouhaha.com>
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geoffrey oltmans wrote:
...
  Don't some FPGAs have dedicated peripherals on
them for specific  applications
...
  besides the field programmable parts of the silicon?

I can't tell you much about Altera, but some of the dedicated hardware 
in Xilinx FPGAs have included:

* block RAMs, 18 or 36 Kbit, in almost all parts
* multipliers or multiply/accumulate blocks in many parts
* very high speed (>1Gbps) serial transceivers in some parts
* a small amount of logic for traditional PCI, in the Spartan-2
* hardware PCIe endpoint logic in the Spartan-6 and Virtex-6
* hardware DDR SDRAM controller in the Spartan-6 and Virtex-6
* PowerPC processor core in some Virtex-4 and Virtex-5 parts
* 10/100/1000 Ethernet MAC in some Virtex-5 and Virtex-6 parts

For details, such as which parts have how many of what hardware blocks, 
you'll have to check the datasheets.

Generally they only put in hardware blocks for things that can't be 
implemented reasonably efficiently in the fabric.  I consider the 
10/100/1000 Ethernet MAC to be an exception to that rule of thumb.  
Certainly if you want the kinds of traditional peripherals found in 
early microcomputers (GPIO, timers, UARTs, video display controllers), 
those will have to be in the fabric.

Eric

------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:03:12 -0700
From: Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com>
Subject: Re: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1
	replica
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C7F13F0.8050004 at brouhaha.com>
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Chuck Guzis wrote:
...
  In the eval kits, the Spartan 6 kits seem to offer a
significantly
 higher bang-for-the-buck than the Spartan 3 ones. 
Certainly the Spartan-6 chips are far more cost effective than Spartan-3.

For eval boards, I'm not convinced that this is the case yet.  There 
aren't nearly as many inexpensive development boards for the -6 yet.  I 
haven't yet seen any inexpensive Spartan-6 boards that seem comparable 
to the Digilent Spartan-3E or Spartan-3A boards, in terms of FPGA 
capacity, on-board peripheral interfaces/connectors, and availability of 
GPIO pins on connectors.

Eric

End of cctalk Digest, Vol 85, Issue 3
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