11 Apr
2010
11 Apr
'10
2:29 p.m.
Dear List,
Some bits of equpment that I have get hauled out only rarely and I
often waste a lot of time identifying them then trying to remember
where the heck I put the paper that describes their operation--and
then locating the disk with the related driver information.
I've been considering archiving the information on mini (200MB) CD-R
and taping said CD-R somewhere nside the equipment. Mini, mostly
because their physical size is convenient and I rarely have more than
200MB of information on any peripheral.
Does anyone else do something like this? I have little experience
with mini CDR--are they reliable?
Best reagards,
Chuck
11 Apr
11 Apr
2:34 p.m.
I've been considering archiving the information on
mini (200MB) CD-R and
taping said CD-R somewhere nside the equipment. Mini, mostly because
their physical size is convenient and I rarely have more than 200MB of
information on any peripheral.
Does anyone else do something like this? I have
little experience with
mini CDR--are they reliable?
Seems like a brilliant idea, and I may steal it.
Can't speak to reliability. You might want to consider the relative
size of the scanned PDF docs that are common versus the size of the mini
cds. The rectangular ones can be as small as 50 MB or less.
De
13 Apr
13 Apr
2:18 p.m.
Can't speak to reliability. You might want to
consider the relative
size of the scanned PDF docs that are common versus the size of the mini
cds. The rectangular ones can be as small as 50 MB or less.
I have old CD-Rs as old as 1996 vintage. This is an old Gold + green TDK
CD-R. But do new CDs has the same reliability record???
This is an excellent question - how to preserve data, and a recurrent
one on this list :)
14 Apr
14 Apr
10:31 a.m.
For anything important, I wouldn't trust just optical media. External hard drives are
so inexpensive with such a large capacity.
Storing important things on a couple instances of magnetic media, perhaps in additional to
optical, might be a safer way to preserve
them. (A couple big external drives, stored in a couple of safe, offsite, locations
etc).
-Bob
bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR
Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations
Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf
Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 1:19 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info?
Can't speak to reliability. You might want to
consider the relative
size of the scanned PDF docs that are common versus the size of the mini
cds. The rectangular ones can be as small as 50 MB or less.
I have old CD-Rs as old as 1996 vintage. This is an old Gold + green TDK
CD-R. But do new CDs has the same reliability record???
This is an excellent question - how to preserve data, and a recurrent
one on this list :)
10:35 a.m.
For anything important, I wouldn't trust just
optical media. External hard
drives are so inexpensive with such a large capacity.
Storing important things on a couple instances of magnetic media, perhaps
in additional to optical, might be a safer way to preserve
them. (A couple big external drives, stored in a couple of safe, offsite,
locations etc).
And you leave them some years without turning on, the heads glue to the disk
surface and bye bye.
What about memory cards? CFs are cheap and IDE interfaces may be avaiable
for years to come :oO
11:34 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:35, Alexandre Souza - Listas
<pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
What about memory cards? CFs are cheap and IDE
interfaces may be avaiable
for years to come :oO
I wonder if anyone has done tests on OCR'ing uuencoded printouts. I
know people have come previously with methods to store binary data on
printouts, to be machine-read by scanning - but do any of those
include a fallback to typing in parts that may be unscannable?
Joe.
--
Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem
2:23 p.m.
Run them every few months at least.
-Bob
bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR
Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations
Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf
Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:36 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info?
For anything important, I wouldn't trust just
optical media. External hard
drives are so inexpensive with such a large capacity.
Storing important things on a couple instances of magnetic media, perhaps
in additional to optical, might be a safer way to preserve
them. (A couple big external drives, stored in a couple of safe, offsite,
locations etc).
And you leave them some years without turning on, the heads glue to the disk
surface and bye bye.
What about memory cards? CFs are cheap and IDE interfaces may be avaiable
for years to come :oO
7:31 p.m.
On Wednesday 14 April 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Why would you leave them turned off for any more time than absolutely
necessary?
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
For anything
important, I wouldn't trust just optical media.
External hard drives are so inexpensive with such a large capacity.
Storing important things on a couple instances of magnetic media,
perhaps in additional to optical, might be a safer way to preserve
them. (A couple big external drives, stored in a couple of safe,
offsite, locations etc).
And you leave them some years without turning on, the heads glue to
the disk surface and bye bye. 
15 Apr
15 Apr
12:25 p.m.
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
And you leave them some years without turning on, the
heads glue to
the disk surface and bye bye.
Would it help to store them vertically instead?
What about memory cards? CFs are cheap and IDE interfaces may be
avaiable for years to come :oO
No idea. Aren't they based on storing a charge, the way a capacitor does?
This page claims 10 years...
http://fixunix.com/hardware/8918-ot-flash-memory-longevity.html
"Manufacturer's data sheets usually claim 10 years.
Bits will rot one-by-one and NAND-FLASH has ECC codes
to compensate."
Yup:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory :
"can store more than one bit per cell by choosing between multiple
levels of electrical charge to apply to the floating gates of its cells."
So MLC should die quicker than SLC, though it can store more.
Perhaps taking them out once in a while and copying their data to newer
media every 3-5 years is a good idea.
12:58 p.m.
On 15 Apr 2010 at 12:25, Ray Arachelian wrote:
This page claims 10 years...
http://fixunix.com/hardware/8918-ot-flash-memory-longevity.html
I was going to suggest 45 RPM vinyl discs, but the CD-R kept in a
dust-tight envelope out of the light may well be as good as one can
get for a substantial volume of data.
I've made the mistake of filing manufacturers' FAXes printed on
thermal paper without first copying them, thinking that surely such
stuff would last more than a decade or two. Big mistake--I should
have invested in a plain-paper FAX machine. I've also got some
blueline prints that are equally illegible.
Right now, the electronic medium with any density with the longest
proven lifespan for me is the 8" floppy. Tape (even 1/2" 9-track
tape) has a mixed track record.
All the best,
Chuck
1:17 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a decades-long data life warranty?
Peace... Sridhar
This page
claims 10 years...
http://fixunix.com/hardware/8918-ot-flash-memory-longevity.html
I was going to suggest 45 RPM vinyl discs, but the CD-R kept in a
dust-tight envelope out of the light may well be as good as one can
get for a substantial volume of data. 
2:16 p.m.
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a decades-long
data life warranty?
With computers ... Having a company last more than a decade is a lifetime.
Did not Radio Shack have a lifetime warranty on tubes ( one year ).
I just can't quite see you collecting on that ... Umm my BW needs a this
part ... Sales-kid Umm we don't have any <latest game player> that color .
Peace... Sridhar
2:50 p.m.
On 15 Apr 2010 at 12:16, Ben wrote:
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Mitsui spun off the CD-R operation as MAM-A:
http://www.mam-a.com/
They claim 329 years on the stability of their formulation. I
suspect that other aspects of CD construction will degrade before
that time however.
FWIW, we do use the MAM-A CD-Rs.
I'm still trying to collect on the 3M silicone caulk that was
warranted for 50 years, but lasted only 20 on my house. Obviously,
such warranties are limited to replacement of the original disc (or
caulk), as long as it's still manufactured. I can't see getting a
replacement CD-R in 328 years...
--Chuck
Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a
decades-long data life warranty?
With computers ... Having a company last more than a decade is a
lifetime. Did not Radio Shack have a lifetime warranty on tubes ( one
year ). I just can't quite see you collecting on that ... Umm my BW
needs a this part ... Sales-kid Umm we don't have any <latest game
player> that color . 
4:04 p.m.
I'm still trying to collect on the 3M silicone
caulk that was
warranted for 50 years, but lasted only 20 on my house. Obviously,
such warranties are limited to replacement of the original disc (or
caulk), as long as it's still manufactured. I can't see getting a
replacement CD-R in 328 years...
I've never forgiven Tektronix for not hnouring the 'lifetime warranty' o
ntheir transformers. Yes, I have had an EHT transformer break down, and
Tekky would do nothign about it.
-tony
4:12 p.m.
New subject: Warranty (Was: Use mini CDR for equipment info?
. . . and WHEN the CD-R goes blank,
they will replace it with a new blank CD-R.
Any such warranties are for the media, not for your data.
16 Apr
16 Apr
1:39 p.m.
New subject: Warranty (Was: Use mini CDR for equipment info?
. . . and WHEN the CD-R goes blank,
they will replace it with a new blank CD-R.
Any such warranties are for the media, not for your data.
Which makes them totally useless, of course. Oddly, I find the data
recorded on a disk to be much more valuable than the disk itself.
The ohter trick that's pulled is that the small print says 'provided the
furomat is still in current use' or something like that. And the
manufactuerers hope that <n> years in the future, it won't be.
-tony
15 Apr
15 Apr
4:34 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info?
On 15 Apr 2010 at 12:16, Ben wrote:
...or 2 years, if the hole Planet X thing is 100% real. (Planet X is,
whether it actually colllides with the Earth I don't know...)
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Mitsui spun off the CD-R operation as MAM-A:
http://www.mam-a.com/
They claim 329 years on the stability of their formulation. I
suspect that other aspects of CD construction will degrade before
that time however.
FWIW, we do use the MAM-A CD-Rs.
I'm still trying to collect on the 3M silicone caulk that was
warranted for 50 years, but lasted only 20 on my house. Obviously,
such warranties are limited to replacement of the original disc (or
caulk), as long as it's still manufactured. I can't see getting a
replacement CD-R in 328 years...
--Chuck
Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a
decades-long data life warranty?
With computers ... Having a company last more than a decade is a
lifetime. Did not Radio Shack have a lifetime warranty on tubes ( one
year ). I just can't quite see you collecting on that ... Umm my BW
needs a this part ... Sales-kid Umm we don't have any <latest game
player> that color . 
16 Apr
16 Apr
3:01 p.m.
Andrew Burton wrote:
...or 2 years, if the hole Planet X thing is 100%
real. (Planet X is,
whether it actually colllides with the Earth I don't know...)
I'd be more worried about 2038...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
15 Apr
15 Apr
4:25 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sridhar Ayengar" <ploopster at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info?
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a decades-long data life warranty?
Peace... Sridhar
How would that help if the disc is destroyed, warped or covered in gunk?
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
This page
claims 10 years...
http://fixunix.com/hardware/8918-ot-flash-memory-longevity.html
I was going to suggest 45 RPM vinyl discs, but the CD-R kept in a
dust-tight envelope out of the light may well be as good as one can
get for a substantial volume of data. 
4:05 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I've made the mistake of filing manufacturers'
FAXes printed on
thermal paper without first copying them, thinking that surely such
stuff would last more than a decade or two. ?Big mistake--I should
have invested in a plain-paper FAX machine. ?I've also got some
blueline prints that are equally illegible.
A lot of plain-paper faxes use inkjets. Inkjets /per se/ aren't bad
for longevity, it's the ink that's the issue.
There are 2 types of ink, using either dyes (liquid colourants,
possibly soluble) or pigments (solid colourants in a suspension of
fine particles.)
Dye-based inks tend to fade. They don't always even need light to do
it; age can be enough.
Pigment-based inks deposit particles into the matrix of the paper as
they dry and tend to be far more robust.
I've also seen clapped-out or badly-adjusted laser printers that
failed to properly melt and bond the toner onto the paper, where with
age the print simply brushes off the surface of the page.
Print longevity is a tricksy issue.
This is one of the best articles I've seen on it:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/printers/review/2007/04/21/The-Inkjet-Investi…
http://www.trustedreviews.com/printers/review/2007/08/12/The-Inkjet-Investi…
http://www.trustedreviews.com/printers/review/2008/04/29/The-Inkjet-Investi…
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
1:06 p.m.
At 11:25 AM 4/15/2010, Ray Arachelian wrote:
So MLC should die quicker than SLC, though it can store
more.
Perhaps taking them out once in a while and copying their data to newer
media every 3-5 years is a good idea.
What has to be done to a flash drive in order for it to refresh
the charge? Just a few seconds of power? They need so little,
and USB connectors are easy to find... One could have an array
of 4 or 8 gig thumb drives connected to a power supply that only
turned itself on every few months. Is the same true for a
solid state disk drive with a greater capacity? Just power it up
to refresh the stored memory?
- John
11 Apr
11 Apr
2:40 p.m.
On Apr 11, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Some bits of equpment that I have get hauled out only
rarely and I
often waste a lot of time identifying them then trying to remember
where the heck I put the paper that describes their operation--and
then locating the disk with the related driver information.
I've been considering archiving the information on mini (200MB) CD-R
and taping said CD-R somewhere nside the equipment. Mini, mostly
because their physical size is convenient and I rarely have more than
200MB of information on any peripheral.
Does anyone else do something like this? I have little experience
with mini CDR--are they reliable?
I can't speak to the reliability of mini CDRs, but I can say that
it seems like a whole lot less trouble to have a directory structure
on a file server that's navigable by manufacturer and model number.
I maintain about 26GB of documentation that way. I don't keep
drivers or control software in there, but I could. Doing it the CDR
way seems to me like it'd be more trouble than it's worth.
Just a thought, no offense intended of course.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
8:33 p.m.
On 11 Apr 2010 at 14:40, Dave McGuire wrote:
I can't speak to the reliability of mini CDRs,
but I can say that
it seems like a whole lot less trouble to have a directory structure
on a file server that's navigable by manufacturer and model number.
I maintain about 26GB of documentation that way. I don't keep
drivers or control software in there, but I could. Doing it the CDR
way seems to me like it'd be more trouble than it's worth.
Just a thought, no offense intended of course.
None taken. I find myself repeating things I've done 20 or more years
ago, forgetting that I've even done them--so locating the information
on a file server or in a paper file doesn't even occur to me. Then
there's the awful feeling you get when you find out that you've
already done something. But a CD-R stuck inside a cabinet might give
me a clue.
It's sort of like the situation a friend describes to me. He says
"Old age is great--I keep making new friends that I've known for 50
years..."
--Chuck
2:42 p.m.
From: cclist at sydex.com
---snip---
Does anyone else do something like this? I have little experience
with mini CDR--are they reliable?
Best reagards,
Chuck
Hi
I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years.
Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files
with junper setting.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:…
2:58 p.m.
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 14:42, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi
?I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years.
Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files
with junper setting.
Dwight
Right next to the solenoids? :-)
Joe.
--
Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem
3:11 p.m.
From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 14:42, dwight
elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
Oooops!!! Beter go check
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:…
Hi
I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years.
Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files
with junper setting.
Dwight
Right next to the solenoids? :-)
Joe.
3:16 p.m.
On Apr 11, 2010, at 3:11 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
Oooops!!! Beter go check
soda -> keyboard
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for
years.
Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files
with junper setting.
Dwight
Right next to the solenoids? :-)
12 Apr
12 Apr
4:10 p.m.
Right next to
the solenoids? :-)
Joe.
=20
Oooops!!! Beter go check
5:43 p.m.
On 12 Apr 2010 at 21:10, Tony Duell wrote:
[Mind you, it does take a reasonable magnetic field to
affect a floppy
disk. After all, the 3.5" disk is magnetically held to the motor
spindle in the drive.]
It's the AC fields that'll getcha. DC magnetic fields have to be
pretty darned strong to affect floppies.
--Chuck
7:21 p.m.
From: cclist at sydex.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:43:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info?
On 12 Apr 2010 at 21:10, Tony Duell wrote:
Exactly. Yea, how many times have we seen the video tape in the police property room
erased, with a strong magnet placed nearby.
Randy
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=P…
[Mind you, it does take a reasonable magnetic
field to affect a floppy
disk. After all, the 3.5" disk is magnetically held to the motor
spindle in the drive.]
It's the AC fields that'll getcha. DC magnetic fields have to be
pretty darned strong to affect floppies.
--Chuck
7:54 p.m.
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
Did I just read what I think I just read?
[Mind you, it does take a reasonable magnetic field to affect a floppy
disk. After all, the 3.5" disk is magnetically held to the motor spindle
in the drive.]
Hi
I was just kidding. Most all the electronic pinballs have little stray
magnetic fields on the bottom of the box. Most is on the play field.
More dangerous to floppies is all the dust and particles that rain
down from the play field.
I use a bagie stapled to the side of the back box as a safe location.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=P…
Right
next to the solenoids? :-)
Joe.
=20
Oooops!!! Beter go check
11 Apr
11 Apr
7:04 p.m.
Joachim Thiemann wrote:
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 14:42, dwight elvey
<dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
You never know -- he might have put them in a mu-metal box inside the
cabinet :)
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
Hi
I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years.
Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files
with junper setting.
Dwight
Right next to the solenoids? :-)
Joe.
5184
days inactive
5189
days old
31 comments
18 participants
participants (18)
-
aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bbrown＠harpercollege.edu -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
drb＠msu.edu -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
joachim.thiemann＠gmail.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
ray＠arachelian.com -
rdawson16＠hotmail.com