23 Jun
2010
23 Jun
'10
7:17 a.m.
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:16:00 +0100
"Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I
think I need at
least a keyboard to get it to boot.
If no keyboard is connected the machine
defaults to serial console on
the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before
investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine
lives at all via the serial console.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
23 Jun
23 Jun
6:09 p.m.
On 6/23/10 3:17 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst
system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The machine
came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at
least a keyboard to get it to boot.
If no keyboard is connected the machine
defaults to serial console on
the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before
investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine
lives at all via the serial console. 
6:21 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard
On 6/23/10 3:17 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst
system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
They are not that bad once you add a SCSI card to the U5, a better video
card would help as well. More of a cheap PC design with a sparc CPU.
The
machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at
least a keyboard to get it to boot.
If no keyboard is connected the machine
defaults to serial console on
the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before
investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine
lives at all via the serial console.
6:25 p.m.
On 6/23/10 2:21 PM, Teo Zenios wrote:
Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst
system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO.
They are not that bad once you add a SCSI card to the U5, a better video
card would help as well. More of a cheap PC design with a sparc CPU.
Yes. Which is why I say they suck. :) Compare the build quality to
something like an Ulra2 or an Ultra60!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The machine
came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at
least a keyboard to get it to boot.
If no keyboard is connected the machine
defaults to serial console on
the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before
investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine
lives at all via the serial console.
6:32 p.m.
On 6/23/10 2:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
They are not that bad once you add a SCSI card to the U5, a better video
card would help as well. More of a cheap PC design with a sparc CPU.
Yes. Which is why I say they suck. :) Compare the build quality to
something like an Ulra2 or an Ultra60!
I should amend this by stating that I don't wish to dissuade anyone
> The
machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at
> least a keyboard to get it to boot.
If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on
the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before
investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine
lives at all via the serial console.
Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst
system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO. from playing with them, just don't let it color
your opinion of Sun
systems in general if this will be your first. The
Ultra5/Ultra10
really are PCs with SPARC processors grafted in...Slow, flimsy, terrible
construction, not nice at all. Fun to play with, but not
production-quality systems. Just my (professional) opinion.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
25 Jun
25 Jun
1:51 p.m.
On 23 June 2010 19:32, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 6/23/10 2:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
? Yes. ?Which is why I say they suck. :) ?Compare the build quality to
something like an Ulra2 or an Ultra60!
?I should amend this by stating that I don't wish to dissuade anyone
from playing with them, just don't let it color your opinion of Sun
systems in general if this will be your first. ?The Ultra5/Ultra10
really are PCs with SPARC processors grafted in...Slow, flimsy, terrible
construction, not nice at all. ?Fun to play with, but not
production-quality systems. ?Just my (professional) opinion.
Oh. Great.
I just got given a minitower Ultra10 a week or 2 ago. Not yet tried to
fire it up yet.
Ah well. I will still have a play. Happen to know the latest version
of Solaris it'll run?
And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card, will any old
random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special
fabricated out of unobtainium?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
>> The machine came without a keyboard or mouse
and I think I need at
>> least a keyboard to get it to boot.
> If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on
> the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before
> investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine
> lives at all via the serial console.
?Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) ?The worst
system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO.
They are not that bad once you add a SCSI card to the U5, a better video
card would help as well. More of a cheap PC design with a sparc CPU. 
1:57 p.m.
On 6/25/10, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card,
will any old
random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special
fabricated out of unobtainium?
USB on a Sun box I have no experience with, but ISTR there is some
favored model of Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in - the
unobtanium part *might* be that you'd have to find a SPARC boot ROM if
you wanted to boot from an attached device. I have only ever booted
from "internal" disks on that variety of
hardware.
If you do find one with a SPARC ROM on it, it should be a matter of
stuffing it in a slot and powering on.
-ethan
2:11 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard
On 6/25/10, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
wrote:
There were plenty of cheap Symbios 22801 or 22802 (one is HVD and the other
is SE/LVD) last year when I needed one for my U5 on ebay.
I boot from a 18GB UW 10K driver off of it using Solaris 8.
And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB
card, will any old
random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special
fabricated out of unobtainium?
USB on a Sun box I have no experience with, but ISTR there is some
favored model of Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in - the
unobtanium part *might* be that you'd have to find a SPARC boot ROM if
you wanted to boot from an attached device. I have only ever booted
from "internal" disks on that variety of hardware.
If you do find one with a SPARC ROM on it, it should be a matter of
stuffing it in a slot and powering on.
-ethan
3:36 p.m.
On 6/25/10 9:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 6/25/10, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
wrote:
Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are
platform-independent.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB
card, will any old
random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special
fabricated out of unobtainium?
USB on a Sun box I have no experience with, but ISTR there is some
favored model of Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in - the
unobtanium part *might* be that you'd have to find a SPARC boot ROM if
you wanted to boot from an attached device. I have only ever booted
from "internal" disks on that variety of hardware.
If you do find one with a SPARC ROM on it, it should be a matter of
stuffing it in a slot and powering on.
3:40 p.m.
On 6/25/10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 6/25/10 9:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Oh? So an Adaptec card with an OpenBoot ROM would work in either,
say, a SPARC machine or a PCI-equipped Apple (like one of the G3
machines)? Is it really that "independent"? If so, that'd be cool.
-ethan
... Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop
in...
*might*... have to find a SPARC boot ROM...
Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are
platform-independent.
3:45 p.m.
On 6/25/10 11:40 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Oh? So an Adaptec card with an OpenBoot ROM would work in either,
say, a SPARC machine or a PCI-equipped Apple (like one of the G3
machines)? Is it really that "independent"? If so, that'd be cool.
That's the idea, yes.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
... Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop
in...
*might*... have to find a SPARC boot ROM...
Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are
platform-independent. 
3:51 p.m.
On Jun 25, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 6/25/10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at
neurotica.com> wrote:
Well , kind of. The OpenBoot rom contains a set of openfirmware codes
(methods) that allow a driver a more universal way to access the card.
I use to design video cards for the early powermacs so I've written a bunch of F-Code.
You still needed a driver on top of the openfirmware rom.
Rob
On 6/25/10 9:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Oh? So an Adaptec card with an OpenBoot ROM would work in either,
say, a SPARC machine or a PCI-equipped Apple (like one of the G3
machines)? Is it really that "independent"? If so, that'd be cool.
-ethan ... Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop
in...
*might*... have to find a SPARC boot ROM...
Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are
platform-independent.
4:34 p.m.
On 6/25/10 11:51 AM, Robert Borsuk wrote:
Oh? So an Adaptec card with an OpenBoot ROM would work in either,
say, a SPARC machine or a PCI-equipped Apple (like one of the G3
machines)? Is it really that "independent"? If so, that'd be cool.
Well , kind of. The OpenBoot rom contains a set of openfirmware codes (methods) that
allow a driver a more universal way to access the card.
I use to design video cards for the early powermacs so I've written a bunch of
F-Code. You still needed a driver on top of the openfirmware rom.
Yes, I should've mentioned that this is in the context of
OpenFirmware. Nearly all of the machines I ever touch use OpenFirmware
(Mac destkops, Sun servers) so machine without it are pretty unusual in
my world. It's really amazingly good stuff. And it made Forth one of
the most widely-deployed (but largely invisible) programming language
implementations ever. :)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
... Adaptec
PCI SCSI card that should just drop in...
*might*... have to find a SPARC boot ROM...
Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are
platform-independent. 
5:33 p.m.
On 6/25/10 10:36 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard
OpenBoot ROM. They are
platform-independent.
Ah, no. The OpenFirmware standard is platform independent. OpenBoot
is Sun's implementation of that standard. There are quite a few
platforms that use OpenFirmware, including SPARC, several generations of
Apple Macs, and most of the IBM POWER systems. Adapters firmwared for
one platform will often function on the others, but rarely boot. In
fact, I can't think of any that will, outside of ethernet adapters.
Doc
6:57 p.m.
On 6/25/10 1:33 PM, Doc Shipley wrote:
Oh yes, brain-o. Thanks for the correction.
Not a
"SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are
platform-independent.
Ah, no. The OpenFirmware standard is platform independent. OpenBoot
is Sun's implementation of that standard. There are quite a few
platforms that use OpenFirmware, including SPARC, several generations of
Apple Macs, and most of the IBM POWER systems. Adapters firmwared for
one platform will often function on the others, but rarely boot. In
fact, I can't think of any that will, outside of ethernet adapters.
I've removed (bootable) SCSI cards from Macs and stuck them in Suns
many times, and they've been bootable. The Fcode boot structures are
very consistent from what I've seen. (I've looked)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
5:47 p.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Pretty much any Symbios 22801 or compatible should work out of the box.
Peace... Sridhar
And if I
wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card, will any old
random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special
fabricated out of unobtainium?
USB on a Sun box I have no experience with, but ISTR there is some
favored model of Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in - the
unobtanium part *might* be that you'd have to find a SPARC boot ROM if
you wanted to boot from an attached device. I have only ever booted
from "internal" disks on that variety of hardware.
If you do find one with a SPARC ROM on it, it should be a matter of
stuffing it in a slot and powering on.
26 Jun
26 Jun
7:08 a.m.
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:47:44 -0400
Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:
Pretty much any Symbios 22801 or compatible should
work out of the box.
So do the older NCR / Symbios 53C8* starting with the 53C810.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
14 Jul
14 Jul
2:45 a.m.
New subject: Wanted: HP boards
I'm looking for some boards to populate a HP 2109E:
12966A BACI (Buffered Asynchronous Communications Interface)
12351D Terminal Interface
Any memory boards which will work with a 2102B Memory Controller
And, if anyone has a 7970E 9-track and a 13183A controller taking up
valuable space, I might be interested. Email me privately if you have any
spare boards, and your asking price. Thanks!
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Wanted: HP boards
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010, Mike Loewen wrote:
I'm looking for some boards to populate a HP 2109E:
12966A BACI (Buffered Asynchronous Communications Interface)
12351D Terminal Interface
Oops, typo. What I meant was the 12531D High Speed Terminal Interface.
Also looking for a 12924A Card Reader Interface for the 2892A.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
12:52 p.m.
New subject: Wanted: HP boards
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:45:51 -0400
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Wanted: HP boards
I'm looking for some boards to populate a HP 2109E:
12966A BACI (Buffered Asynchronous Communications Interface)
12351D Terminal Interface
Hi
There is one of these on ebay for $40. I've bought stuff from
him in the past and he is OK. He has a wherehouse full of
HP stuff.
He most likely has the other boards youare looking for as well.
Dwight
Any memory boards which will work with a 2102B Memory Controller
And, if anyone has a 7970E 9-track and a 13183A controller taking up
valuable space, I might be interested. Email me privately if you have any
spare boards, and your asking price. Thanks!
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
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1:23 p.m.
New subject: blowing PAL fuses
Hi
I'm creating a JEDEC file to blow a 16R4. I have a question.
On a row that isn't used, is it better to blow all but two of
the fuses or not blow any?
Which is better from a power point of view?
If one leave just two fuses not blown, is it better to
change which columns across the lines or to just use
a single column pair?
Dwight
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15 Jul
15 Jul
3:11 a.m.
New subject: blowing PAL fuses
Hi
OK, now one seems to know. How about anyone with a
JEDEC file for any of the 16L8, 16R4 or 16R8 chips?
I could look at that and find how it was handled.
Thanks
Dwight
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
Hi
I'm creating a JEDEC file to blow a 16R4. I have a question.
On a row that isn't used, is it better to blow all but two of
the fuses or not blow any?
Which is better from a power point of view?
If one leave just two fuses not blown, is it better to
change which columns across the lines or to just use
a single column pair?
Dwight
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4:14 a.m.
New subject: blowing PAL fuses
On 14 Jul 2010 at 20:11, dwight elvey wrote:
OK, now one seems to know. How about anyone with a
JEDEC file for any of the 16L8, 16R4 or 16R8 chips?
I could look at that and find how it was handled.
I wonder if you could run a sample through PALASM and see what the
output looked like. I think I've read somewhere that blowing unused
fuses can have a beneficial effect on speed, but I'm not aware of
hearing anything about power--I'd assume that if it was a
consideration, you'd just use a low-power PAL/GAL/whatever.
--Chuck
6:47 a.m.
New subject: blowing PAL fuses
dwight elvey wrote:
I'm creating a JEDEC file to blow a 16R4. I have a
question.
On a row that isn't used, is it better to blow all but two of
the fuses or not blow any?
It sounds like you're not using PALASM, but I'd recommend looking at
what PALASM does, and then doing the same thing.
Which is better from a power point of view?
I don't think there's any difference (for an actual bipolar PAL), but I
suppose I wouldn't bet money on it without giving it a try.
Eric
7:03 a.m.
New subject: blowing PAL fuses
Eric Smith wrote:
Ben.
dwight elvey wrote:
I thought for the original MMI PAL's you just blew a fuse,
where you needed a link made. One could just mark out from the
PAL pin out the fuses needed to be blown, with out having to
use software and convert that to a 512x8 ROM mapping.
I'm creating a JEDEC file to blow a 16R4. I
have a question.
On a row that isn't used, is it better to blow all but two of
the fuses or not blow any?
It sounds like you're not using PALASM, but I'd
recommend looking at
what PALASM does, and then doing the same thing. Which is
better from a power point of view?
I don't think there's any difference
(for an actual bipolar PAL), but I
suppose I wouldn't bet money on it without giving it a try.
Eric
11 p.m.
New subject: blowing PAL fuses
Hi
I've done a bunch of research and I find that most
compiler output seems to just use the F0*. Which
means that the fuses are left intact in the unused
rows. The way they are suppose to work by several
sources seems to indicate that this is not the desired
thing to do for power or speed.
I did see one that just left fuses connected that we
just in 3 of the column pairs towards the middle of
the array.
For power, I'd guess that blowing as many fuses as
one can would be best. For speed, I suspect it
has little effect because the lines are actually isolated
by a transistor in the arrays.
Since I am creating my own JEDEC file, I will just blow
as many as I can and not use the F0*. I suspect that
newer parts may recognize that the row is unused and
simply power it down. I doubt this is true for older
devices.
When I finally get around to blowing some, I may
do both and compare the current used. It only
takes a second to create either JEDEC file.
Dwight
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25 Jun
25 Jun
3:50 p.m.
On 6/25/10 9:51 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
I just got given a minitower Ultra10 a week or 2 ago.
Not yet tried to
fire it up yet.
Ah well. I will still have a play. Happen to know the latest version
of Solaris it'll run?
It will run the current release of Solaris.
And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card,
will any old
random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special
fabricated out of unobtainium?
If you're going to run Solaris, you'll need a Solaris-supported card.
Many are supported, though. There's a list here:
http://www.sun.com/io_technologies/iocontrolers/IOControlers23.html
For SCSI, most LSI chipsets work under Solaris 10. In case you want
SATA, the Silicon Image PB3512 is specifically supported, though many
others are reported to work. Most SIIG-chipset FireWire cards also work.
If you're going to run something like NetBSD or Linux, pretty much
anything will work, except of course for booting.
Odd that they spelled it "controlers" in that URL; they probably
farmed their content generation out to India. Joy.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
24 Jun
24 Jun
6 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On 6/23/10 3:17 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst
system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO.
Maybe I just never tried to do much with my U10.... but with a 440mhz
processor, it didn't seem that bad to me.... now the ones with slower
procs and smaller cache... well, all they need is a 440mhz module and
they are as good as they can get :-)
Now if we go back in time a bit further.... the LX and Classic come to
mind....
with their teeny tiny caches they could be slower than a Sparcstation 2 for
certain workloads. WABI comes to mind.... it was a no go on Classic/LX.
I think I'd have to vote the Classic as the worst overall system...
although with
a 'better' (more workstation traditional) build quality than U5/U10.
The makes me think... what do folks think is the best desktop SPARC ?
SS1000, U60, U80, SB2000, SB2500, U45 ?
I'd tend to think the Ultra 45.... although the SB2000 uses Ultrasparc
III vs
Ultrasparc IIIi ....
-- Curt
The
machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at
least a keyboard to get it to boot.
If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on
the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before
investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine
lives at all via the serial console.
-Dave
5280
days inactive
5302
days old
27 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
doc＠vaxen.net -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mloewen＠cpumagic.scol.pa.us -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rborsuk＠colourfull.com -
rescue＠hawkmountain.net -
teoz＠neo.rr.com