As do I. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Doc wrote: Nah, I'm referring to a guy who doesn't know how to pack a box, and didn't give a final shipping quote before sending stuff off. The shipping ended up being over twice what the original quote was, and a fair amount of what arrived in the boxes were broken bits of plastic and scrap metal. He *knows* who he is for sure now ;) There will always be a few less than honest people in any group, but the majority of a group such as this one are honest (but sometimes very busy) folks. -Toth

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Mike wrote: I should write one as I've generally had really good luck with getting things I'm sending out to people arrive intact. I think being anal works in my favor, as anal people tend to over do everything :) Here's a mini-HOWTO: First of all, never use paper (crumpled or shredded) to pack something. Not only does it add weight to the box (increasing the shipping costs slightly) it's not a very good packing material. Bubble wrap, styrofoam peanuts and styrofoam blocks are ideal. Here's how and when (or when not) to use each: For light items, foam peanuts are good. Never use foam peanuts exclusively with heavy items. The item WILL shift during shipping as the foam peanuts represent nothing more than a liquid. I have a few unfortunate experiences to relate regarding folks who used foam peanuts to ship heavy items (one as recently as yesterday, when I found that the 8" disk drive unit of a fairly rare East German computer that Hans brought over for me was slightly damaged...I hope Hans is embarrased when he reads this :) Also, make sure you put the item inside a plastic bag first if you are going to use foam peanuts, lest foam penauts and bits get inside the item (again, Hans). It is best to use foam blocks when shipping heavy items. It is also mandatory to use a sturdy box when shipping heavy items. Don't skimp on the box. If you want to ignore this advice and use foam peanuts to ship heavier items anyway, here's a nice trick: first wrap the item in bubble wrap. Then place the item inside a box and surround it with the foam peanuts on all sides (making sure there is at least 2-3 inches of foam peanuts on each side). Get a larger box. Place the box with the item inside this larger box, again surrounded with 2-3 inches of foam peanuts on each side. It is OK to use a less durable box on the inside. This will make for a pretty firmly packed item. Bubble wrap is always recommended as the last line of defense for any item being shipped. It also keeps foam peanut bits from getting inside the item. If you are going to ship multiple items in a single box, first wrap everything in bubble wrap. Then place each item in the box surrounded by foam peanuts. Even if the items are heavy enough to shift during transit, the bubble wrap will keep them from damaging each other. It also helps to compartmentalize the box. Use pieces of cardboard to create barriers between items, and fill each compartment with foam peanuts. Bubble wrap is always recommended for everything. Securing the box closed is perhaps the most important thing. Don't rely on the existing tape of a box. Always put new tape on each seam. Don't be fooled by those big box staples either. Even if a box is stapled, still put tape over that seam. I double tape the top and bottom seams. I also tape the sides of the seams. For heavy items, I strap tape across the top and bottom lids, perpendicular with the lid seam. A few strips across (2-3) is good. If you are using a box that isn't terribly sturdy, you can also wrap tape all the way around the girth of the box on the top and bottom, and perhaps the middle. I cover any holes or punctures in the box with tape also (this is mostly due to my analness :) When shipping CRTs, I usually place a heavy guage piece of cardboard in front of the CRT screen for added protection. Sometimes I also place a small piece of foam between the CRT and the cardboard. It takes a lot of force to break a CRT though. That's all I can think of for now. Input and suggestions from other folks experienced in the art of packing would be appreciate. I think I'll formalize the result and make an official ClassicCmp HOWTO out of it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote: Packing is easy if your willing to spend the money ($10 to $20), for 50 and under pounds, 1) Buy two standard 200# test cardboard boxes, one 2-4 inches larger then the item in all directions, the other 2-4 inches larger then the first, again in all directions. 2)Wrap the item in large bubble wrap 3 to 4 times around item,insert into first box, tape. 3) Wrap the box in large bubble wrap 3 to 4 times, insert into second box, tape. Done. Getting the right size boxes is key as it allows you to minimize the use of bubble wrap and doesn't require any messy foam peanuts to fill empty spaces. New boxes are much stronger then used and tape sticks to them much better (you need less tape and bubble wrap with a new box). steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com

Sellam Ismail wrote: I disagree, I believe it really depends on what it is. Plus, if I always make sure the buyer knows that packing will be well done, and possibly more expensive then "normal". I try to incorporate a materials cost into my shipping charge, if I have to buy more tape/peanuts, bubble wrap, etc. I always save materials too, but if I'm using more than I am getting, I have to buy it. Chad fernandez Michigan, USA

Same here. I try to keep the larger boxes that I come across (they are easy to flatten) and packing materials. There's no reason for me to charge for boxes/packing if I already have the materials at hand. Also, I can do USPS, UPS or FedEx from the office so it's no big deal for that either. High packing and handling charges scare buyers away, so unless I'm going to need to go out-of-pocket, there's no reason to charge.

I have had two 21" NeXT monitors shipped from CA to TX in the past few months. Both were packed professionally by "foam-in-place" method. Monitor cost was $65.00 each, packing and shipping, $75.00 each. They are pretty heavy. But both arrived by UPS in one piece. We have a pretty good driver on my route. What amazes me is, they leave things insured for 1-2000 dollars on my porch. No signature required. James Sellam Ismail wrote:

--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote: This is bad practice, except probably for you and few others doing high volume shipping. Well, its cheaper if you already have the "proper" shipping material, however, using the wrong sized boxes increases the weight, increases the shipping cost, increases the probability of damage. I doubt if most people here have access to the materials you do, in my experience most people don't have ANY large bubble wrap whatsoever, let alone the quantities that are needed to properly protect a package, and probably they have just a half dozen or so odd shape boxes laying around. These people where the ones I was targeting. All I am suggesting is that if you are writing a HOWTO on shipping, it would help if you write in from (or at least consider it from) the perspective of a more "typical" collector. As a side note, your far better to forget the insurance and use that money to purchase the proper shipping materials. steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com

I'm cleaning out some stuff I had stored in the basement of a rental property I own, and while some of it (like a couple of 50 gallon trashcans full of old PC cards and miscellaneous circuit boards, dead or dying VGA monitors, and a couple of rusty old printers) went to the dump, I still would like to find a good home for the following items. Note that unlike Sam, I _don't_ have a ton of packing material around, and don't really have the time right now to deal with wrapping stuff, so if you want anything, please be prepared to either pick it up in Lincoln Nebraska in the next couple of weeks _or_ pay Mailboxes Etc's standard rates. The stuff: Summagraphics BitPad II - clean, working, with all cables, manual, pen (maybe a puck - don't remember for sure) power supply and original driver disk (5.25") Beehive Micro B1 serial terminal - was working last time used (2-3 years ago). Missing one key (the "Local" key, maybe? Nothing critical.) Large brown and yellow serial terminal marked "ii". Keyboard and display are separate, attached by a hardwired cable about the size of my thumb. I believe it worked when I fired it up about 5 years ago, but don't know much about it. Hazeltine 1000 terminal - was working several years ago. Stopped abruptly, and was shelved without testing because something else was available to use. I'd guess it might be simple to fix, but... YMMV. 3 or 4 Panasonic HHC's (handheld computers). These have some insurance illustration ROMs installed, but I think you can run BASIC on them if you can get a set of the proper ROMs. One or two small matching thermal printers, about half the size of a cigar box. Box of assorted Radio Shack Color Computer cartridge blanks (I think with boards included; you can put your own ROMs on them.) Also in this box is what I believe to be a floppy drive controller cartridge for the CoCo. IBM PC-XT 286 chassis and cover. Don't know if the motherboard is original or not, but I can check if you care. It says "IBM PC-XT 286" on the front; otherwise it looks just like an XT chassis. It's the only one I've seen. Assorted IBM CGA & EGA monitors - unknown condition. If you can use any let me know and I'll try to pick a working unit for you. Box of assorted IBM PC and XT motherboards. Some missing RAM and/or CPU. Probably 10-12 motherboards. Unknown condition. There are probably some other goodies that will come to light in the next few days as digging continues. If so, I'll post again. If you want any of this stuff, e-mail me. I reserve the right to limit quantities per person if a particular item is in high demand.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Jim Arnott wrote: That reminds me of the time I shipped a HP 4033A (19") monitor via UPS. I thought I packed it pretty well, but it did not survive shipping (was returned to us as damaged in shipment - pretty well munched) Turns out the recipient saw what happened, UPS truck backs up to his driveway and kicks the package (marked fragile) off the back of the truck onto the driveway... ouch! Peter Wallace

Because of my location in northern Canada, and the problems with shipping by UPS I use the postal system. Unfortunately many in the US are intimidated by the thought of shipping to Canada or else have a bias against us. Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker(a)mts.net

Jerome Fine replies: Just thought I might add a point or two. I don't know which customs shaved your cable, but I presume it was likely the US customs. I doubt that Canadian customs would be interested in a package going to the US, although it might have been opened and shaved in Canada - since very often it is more efficient to do the inspection at a few central points of origin rather than many points of destination. People are pre-cleared into the US as well. No comments on US customs since I have never dealt with them directly and have not heard any details from anyone to whom I sent a package. On Canadian customs: (a) While they obviously perform some useful work, they are also used as a welfare office. Since most shipments from the US to Canada are now duty free, the only tax collected is the GST (7% - Federal Goods and Services Tax - and in some provinces like Ontario now when the shipment is to a person, also the 8% PST or Provincial Sales Tax). However, there is a vast difference between how air and ground shipments are handled. With air shipments, the so-called "clearing" of a shipment charge is paid as part of the air freight. So if GST is charged - which is the ONLY reason that the shipment needs to be cleared - then ONLY the 7% GST is collected based on the ACTUAL value of the hardware NOT including shipping, handling and insurance. In the case of media - like floppy media - I have been advised in the past that the ACTUAL value of the media does NOT include any software which is contained on the media. (b) For ground shipments, the so-called "clearing" of a shipment is not included in the ground freight. In that case, the charge to "clear" is really just a collection charge and is needed ONLY when GST must be collected. In this case, in addition to the 7% GST, the cost of "clearing" (especially by UPS) can often be more than the difference between the air freight cost and the ground freight cost. SO BEWARE - if there is going to be a GST charged, then check to determine if ground freight is actually less expensive overall. (c) Normally, GST is NOT collected if the total GST is less than $ Can 1.40 - which means that the actual value of the shipment is less than $ Can 20.00 or about $ US 12.00 at current exchange rates. I don't know if in Ontario where PST is also collected if the $ Can 20.00 is still used when the total collected is $ Can 3.00 (7% GST and 8% PST). However, when neither GST nor PST is collected, then the shipment is rated as "low value" and does not need to be "cleared" since is put through under "courier remission" i.e. it costs too much for the Federal Government to collect less than $ Can 1.40 (d) Either under air freight or ground freight (the latter does not matter much when it takes more than a couple of weeks in the first place), when a shipment is in "courier remission", it takes a full 24 hours LESS to pass through customs - so shipments from the US which have a value of less than $ US 12.00 reach the customer a full one day sooner. (e) Just as a matter of interest, all GST collected from a company who receives a shipment from the US is refunded (always for a company selling more than $ Can 30,000 a year - and usually for most other small companies) when the company submits a GST tax return. Since collecting the GST in the first place is only weeks, on average, before the date when that same GST is refunded, for a company, there is NO net gain for the Federal government to collect the GST - other than having the money a few weeks sooner. I don't know what percentage of the GST collected from a company is refunded, but it is probably higher than 90% - so, as I said, Canadian customs is mostly a welfare office these days - since with interest rates so low, even collecting $ Can 700 on a $ 10,000 shipment to a company probably results in a net loss after the collection charges are considered since the $ Can 700 is refunded in a few weeks in most cases. Conclusion - if possible, keep the actual value of a shipment to Canada at about $ Can 18.00 or less. Does any of this happen in the reverse direction?

Case in point. I bought some chips on Epay for US$7.50. With shipping Around US$11. The shipper for whatever reason placed the value as US$50. Now usually I am not tagged by customs and it seems hit or miss. In this case they charged me CAN$5 handling and 15% on the US value(approx CAN$80) CAN$12 . I was very aggravated. About double the price of the merchandise value and shipping. For UPS it's much worse since they charge a $15 customs handling fee plus PST&GST (15%) and in my case the closest agent is 60K away unless I want to pay an outrageous drop- off fee. Lawrence I've never heard any comments from people I've shipped to of problems with US Customs and I've had repeat business from many. With free trade you wouldn't imagine any import difficulties since Sales tax is collected by state agencies. Hmm. I tend to avoid Priority Post since it has been my perception that these are tagged more often by Customs. Also packages that seem more professionally packed like from a company. Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker(a)mts.net

--- Lawrence Walker <lgwalker(a)mts.net> wrote: I'm not intimidated; I have numerous personal negative experiences. I *never* use UPS to move stuff between Canada and the U.S. I always use the Postal Service. The only thing close to an exception is for work, and with a commercial invoice, never for personal items. I got a call once, from a clearing house. The shipper just dropped a $70 item off at UPS with no export paperwork. The clearing house wanted something around $80 for the "convenience" of filing the paperwork and sending my item along. They were most suprised when not only did I not give them my credit card but I told them to send it back where it came from. I immediately contacted the company that sold me the item and told them that they could either find a way to get me to item without a service fee that exceeded the purchase price or they could refund my money. This was _after_ I had gone downtown and paid $15 USD for a Canadian Dollar instrument to pay them in the first place. I finally got the item for no more out-of-pocket expenses (it's an 8-bit ISA adapter for the Amiga 1000). It took lots of effort to educate the shipper about how to send items to the U.S. I have more experiences. They aren't pretty either. I'd rather ship to Germany or Australia that Canada. I've done it. It's less trouble. OTOH, I have not had one problem with dropping items in the USPS and having them show up in Canada with no problems. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com

On Monday 25 February 2002 21:07, Ethan Dicks wrote: I just bought a drive mounting rack for an IBM Server PC 500. It cost $1. I figure it is less than a pound, the seller is asking $14 for shipping! Have rates in the US gone up that much?

I disagree, Jeffery. I don't know how large a drive mounting rack for an IBM Server PC 500 is, but I can tell you I shipped an ATX motherboard to a friend of mine, and just based on weight and volume, it cost be $15. And that was the cheapest shipping method there was, across USPS, UPS, DHL, and Fedex. It's getting disgisting what's costing to ship anything. --John

One of the things I regret was leaving a Supermac GDM 1950 behind with a bunch of other stuff, when I made my long-distance move last summer. I know it worked but the price of a board that could use it was too daunting and there was just not enough space left in the UHaul and trailer. I kept a DEC VR320 (influenced by the lists DEC bias) and have yet to be able to interface it with any of my boxes. Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker(a)mts.net

A place my NeXT color monitor has found itself strapped into on more than one occasion. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: What he said, plus a couple of additions: If, like me, you have a closet full of collapsed cartons, you can easily cut interlocking "log-house" spacers from heavy-gauge corrugated board. Remember that a simple "X" form will collapse EVERY time. A "#" form -- two spacers each way -- is the minimum. Also, slot, not slit, the interlocks. Cut a gap the width of the cardboard's thickness instead of just slicing it. For very heavy items, and done right, this is even better than bubble wrap. It also works to position and hold very irregular shapes. The ultimate packing material is plastic garbage bags and aerosol styrofoam. Bag the shipped item, and seal it with tape. Put an empty garbage bag in the carton, and spray enough foam into the bag to build a 3" bed. Let it set till firm but not solid, or use ~3" spacer blocks to support the item. Set it on the foam bed. Put a bag at each corner and on top, fill with foam, close **** and weight **** the lid. The aerosol styrofoam expands and fills in gaps and crannies, effectively making a custom fitted crate. It's relatively very expensive, but if you're shipping very valuable and/or fragile hardware, it's much better than anything else I know. Plus, if you're going to move the item repeatedly, the packing, with reasonable care, will last three or four moves. I got started doing Linux/AIX classes by going around Texas & Louisiana setting up, tearing down and shipping RS6k classrooms. I never lost a part to damage. Doc

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: I've never seen that happen, but the first thing we do is bag and seal the shipped item, and the foam is contained in yet another bag. Plain old white "Glad" kitchen garbage bags, to be specific. Doc

Doc wrote: That is hard to say. For one company I worked for, a rack mounted PC and some other equipment was lost when a fork lift was driven into the wooden packing crate as it was being shipped to a Trade Show. If you want to get it there in one piece it may be best to move it yourself if possible. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

Doc wrote: Empty coffee cups I hope. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html

Tothwolf wrote: Wow, I never knew that. I wouldn't have thought that styrofoam would hurt anything. Maybe it's a good thing that I have shipped very few cables. New cables I buy tend to be new surplus, so they are still bagged from the factory. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

I have a NIB C-64 that had the cable and styro "melted" together. I've cleaned it up but figured it was subjected to overheated storage. I'll have to check my "original" packaging on other items to avoid that. Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker(a)mts.net

Quothe Chad Fernandez, from writings of Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 07:35:42PM -0500: Why is electro-static discharge being ignored in these postings? At the very least, please make sure that foam chips, bubble-wrap and plastic bags (unless they're anti-static), etc. don't touch circuit boards or any connectors. I've received more than one piece of equipment that's been packed only in ordinary bubble-wrap, or bubble-wrap and foam chips, and, while most of it appeared to be undamaged, that's not to say that some damage wasn't done to the circuitry which will result in eventual fauilure. Surely anyone who collects computers should understand the effects of static electricity on many types of integrated circuits. Basic electronics knowledge, at a minimum, is vital to computer collecting if this hobby isn't to become known as "computer destruction." Just my two-cents worth. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

I haven't gotten through all the postings yet, but I've come to the belief, rightly or wrongly, that pink bubble-wrap and other packing materials are anti-static, or, at least more antiS than other clear/white plastics. Can anyone back this up? John A.

From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> I disagree here. I pack and ship continuously these days. I *always* use paper and I routinely ship things as big as a TRS-80 6000 and monitors etc. and they pretty much always arrive alive. Forget crumpling and shredding paper. But 2 - 5 full spread newspaper sheets can be folded-crumpled-rolled (patent pending ;)) into quite a sturdy pillow more protective than that peanut or bubble crap. Takes time and alot of them to piece together your own padding but well worth it if you have a paper source, this local newspaper happily gives me all the misprinted paper I can use for the greenness of it all and free. I also use several other hints already mentioned and I never ship UPS now if I can help it. They sometimes suck and FedEx Ground rocks, is gentler, and cheaper! Square the box up when tapeing it up, you add some structural protection against pileing during transit. Also. Use Red Marker. Pleas. Curses. Up Arrows. Threats. Pagan Symbols. Alot of that box is empty brown for some reason. Even if it's just... 'Fragile. Please Don't Drop' on every face of the rhombiod ;) - Mike

Mike wrote: Can you go into more detail about the folding-crumpling-rolling technique? Or would that invalidate your patent application ;) -- ------------ Alex Holden - http://www.linuxhacker.org ------------ If it doesn't work, you're not hitting it with a big enough hammer

On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Mike wrote: Nice visual tutorial, but this is different than what I imagined. I thought you were folding the paper into pockets and then stuffing the pockets with crumpled paper, then perhaps taping the pockets shut, making a nice pillow. Another thing I hate about getting a box stuffed with paper is that now I am forced to uncrumple each sheet so it can go into the recycle bin. Did I tell you I was anal? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Mike wrote: Personally, I don't care about stickers and grime. It isn't that hard to clean equipment if it needs it. When someone takes perfectly good drives and boards, packs them loose in boxes, puts a sheet of bubble-wrap on top, does not bother to tape the boxes properly, and does not tell me when shipping was nearly twice what it was supposed to have been, I have a major problem with their shipping abilities. At least one box came open in transit too, as it had *tons* of USPS tape all over the bottom seams. There was no reason to ship stuff in multiple boxes either, which is what caused the shipping cost increase. Was I really expecting too much of the shipper to pack stuff in such a way that the shipment would arrive intact? I even asked the guy before he shipped stuff if he knew how to pack everything and had packing materials. The boxes of stuff I received were not worth their shipping costs, especially since so much was damaged. I paid the shipper anyway, but I am very unhappy about it. I found some via Google awhile back when someone asked me once. None of them were perfect, and didn't really cover packing computers and computer parts. -Toth

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Brian Chase wrote: And which brand/type of cyanoacrylic will e use to affix the virtual pike to the virtual wall? Yes, Dave, I know. Virtual KrazyGlue. Doc