23 Sep
2005
23 Sep
'05
4:32 p.m.
ROBO5.8 wrote:
Hi Thom, I don't know where you can find Orbis drives. But if they are the
original style single sided drives then you can also look for Remex 8"
drives. Remex manufactured paper tape readers and punches and then branched
out into Floppy drives. They purchased units from Orbis and relabled them at
the time.
ROBO
Remex also made a series of drives using a plastic base casting. It was a
legendary cost reduction and ensured that nobody else would make that same
mistake again. The casting would shift enough in normal use to give
constant read and write errors. It was a loser then and I doubt it has
improved. In my opinion, using Remex with valuble data is where you want to
stop being "original or authentic" in your restoration. Install another
vendor or don't use Remex for real data. You can use it to make the disk
go around, but even just spinning the disk made wierd schreeching noises.
In all my testing, I never found one that could read its own written disks
more than a few days. It was one of the worst drives ever made and
deservedly died an early death.
Billy
23 Sep
23 Sep
2:02 p.m.
ROBO5.8 wrote:
ROBO
Remex also made a series of drives using a plastic base casting. It was a
legendary cost reduction and ensured that nobody else would make that same
mistake again.
SNIP
Billy
Look for Epson 3.5" drives, they are plastic, have to remove the
metal sleeve to see this black plastic chassis, also the head sevro
is stepper with tiny, tiny fine toothed rack (thin bronze) & prinion
(also tiny dia). Not suitable for heavy use.
Cheers, Wizard
24 Sep
24 Sep
12:18 a.m.
On 9/23/2005, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote:
Look for Epson 3.5" drives, they are plastic, have
to remove the
metal sleeve to see this black plastic chassis, also the head sevro
is stepper with tiny, tiny fine toothed rack (thin bronze) & prinion
(also tiny dia). Not suitable for heavy use.
It's actually pretty amazing, to see what lengths vendors would go to do cost-reduce
components.
Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8" drive that worked the heads via a
follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic disk that was driven by the
spindle motor through a clutch. Basically, pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in
a continuous spiral pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a
windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the entire diskette
(about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less than that. A gutless wonder if
there ever was one. It was actually pretty robust.
Cheers,
Chuck
9:09 a.m.
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8"
drive that worked the
heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic
disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically,
pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral
pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a
windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the
entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less
than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually pretty
robust.
Apple Disk ][ drives used a similar mechanism.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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9:24 a.m.
New subject: Head positioners (was: Orbis
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8" drive that worked the
> heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic
> disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically,
> pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral
> pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a
> windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the
> entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less
> than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually pretty
> robust.
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Apple Disk ][ drives used a similar mechanism.
Yes, and no.
Shugart SA390 (used for Apple ][ disk drives), and the Shugart SA400
(used in TRS-80 and others) used a spiral groove on a disc for head
positioning.
(definitiely NOT a helical lead screw as Dick used to claim -
only helical lead screw that I saw on 5.25" was Micropolis).
It was a real joy when the MPI B51 came out with a split band
positioner, and later the Tandons.
The Shugart was with a separate stepper turning the cam.
I believe that Chuck is referring to a a similar mechanism connected
to the SPINDLE motor, resulting in a spiral track! instead of the
usual series of concentric circles for tracks.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
9:57 a.m.
New subject: Head positioners (was: Orbis
On 9/24/2005 at 9:24 AM Fred Cisin wrote:
The Shugart was with a separate stepper turning the
cam.
I believe that Chuck is referring to a a similar mechanism connected
to the SPINDLE motor, resulting in a spiral track! instead of the
usual series of concentric circles for tracks.
Exactly--once the head was started in motion, it traced a spiral and then returned to home
position, all as one single operation--there was no way to stop or pause the
positioning--or move the positioner independently of the spindle Very much like a tape
drive, if you can visualize a strip of tape laid flat and coiled in a helical shape.
Reminds me a bit of those "stringy floppy" units from the 70's with a
continuous loop of tape crammed in a housing.
The encoding was very simple--MFM with with sync patterns between sectors and 16 bit CRC
summing. A contract entailed looking for latent data on a pile of these things, so we
worked up an ISA card with a WD9216 data separator and a 2651 USART with some TTL
"glue", using the 2651 facility to look for a SYNC double-byte value to find the
lead-in to each sector. The bit clock rate was pretty low--perhaps 125 KHz. It was much
easier to work up a board than trying to figure out how to use the hardware on the word
processor itself to do the work (I think the SCM WP used an 8051-family chip).
Cheers,
Chuck
4:11 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Not really.. The Apple ][ head positioner (which, IIRC, was actually a
Shugart design, certainly I've seen it in a non-Apple drive, I think it
was a Shugart) had its own stepper motor. You could move the head between
tracks under program control.
The Smith Corona drive had one motor. It drove the spindle, and moved the
head. After each revolution of the disk, the head moved to the next track
inwards, when it got to the innermost track, it moved (automatically)
back to the outermost one and the sequence started again. The disk was
essentially a sequential-access thing, like a tape.
-tony
Portable Smith Corona word processors used a
2.8" drive that worked the
heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic
disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically,
pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral
pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a
windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the
entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less
than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually pretty
robust.
Apple Disk ][ drives used a similar mechanism.
25 Sep
25 Sep
9:48 a.m.
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
The distinction is correct. I should've noted that the head positioning
disk with the spiral groove in the Disk ][ mechanism is not driven by the
main motor and a clutch, but by its own stepper as you've pointed out.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Apple Disk ][
drives used a similar mechanism.
Not really.. The Apple ][ head positioner (which, IIRC, was actually a
Shugart design, certainly I've seen it in a non-Apple drive, I think it
was a Shugart) had its own stepper motor. You could move the head between
tracks under program control.
The Smith Corona drive had one motor. It drove the spindle, and moved the
head. After each revolution of the disk, the head moved to the next track
inwards, when it got to the innermost track, it moved (automatically)
back to the outermost one and the sequence started again. The disk was
essentially a sequential-access thing, like a tape.
24 Sep
24 Sep
9:52 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
On 9/23/2005, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote:
Look for Epson 3.5" drives, they are plastic,
have to remove the
metal sleeve to see this black plastic chassis, also the head sevro
is stepper with tiny, tiny fine toothed rack (thin bronze) & prinion
(also tiny dia). Not suitable for heavy use.
Although not very solid, Epson was the only 67.5 TPI 3.5" drive that I
could ever find. (disk format of Geneva PX-8)
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8"
drive that worked the
heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic
disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically,
pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral
pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a
windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the
entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less
than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually
pretty robust.
I remember about 20 years ago that TEC (NOT TeAc) announced a
2.9" drive with a spiral track. (as well as some 720K 2.9" ones)
Is that what they were using?
There was also a Weltec 5.25" drive that ran at 180 RPM,
in order to do 1.2M with XT at 250K data transfer rate.
The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the
"shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would
succeed
would be the one with software availability. So, they overextended
themselves creating a software publishing/distribution company
providing MOST of the big popular software titles on 3.25".
'Course George Morrow said that the solution was to cut a deal with
the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets to 5.25" or even 8".
My favorite weird drive was the Amlyn. It was before the AT came out.
It used a "proprietary" 8 bit ISA controller that had a 500K data
transfer rate (could also be used for 8"). It used a cartridge that held
5 600 Oersted disks (total of 6M), with a few extra holes punched in
corners of the jackets, and could change disks from the cartridge under
software control. One of mine is now in Sellam's collection; NO idea
where the other one is.
And, of course, there was always the Lisa "twiggy". 600 oersted 5.25",
with an extra read/write access oval to make sure that EVERY disk got
thumbprints on it.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:32 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
On 9/24/2005 at 9:52 AM Fred Cisin wrote:
Although not very solid, Epson was the only 67.5 TPI
3.5" drive that I
could ever find. (disk format of Geneva PX-8)
I believe I still have an original Sony OAD-1 drive (single-sided with head-load solenoid)
that was only 40 tracks. And I know I still have a couple of the competing 3.25"
floppy drives.
I remember about 20 years ago that TEC (NOT TeAc)
announced a
2.9" drive with a spiral track. (as well as some 720K 2.9" ones)
Is that what they were using?
Well, I'm holding one of the diskettes in my hand right now--it's labeled
2.8" and has no shutter over the access holes. The hub is a hunk of white plastic
(nylon?) about 3/4" in diameter with about a 1/4" center hole and a very small
hole for an indexing pin. These are "flippies"--each side has its own
write-protect punchout tab.
Does this sound like your 2.9" jobs?
There was also a Weltec 5.25" drive that ran at
180 RPM,
in order to do 1.2M with XT at 250K data transfer rate.
Ah yes--when it was cheaper to change the drive than the controller! AFAIK, almost all
5.25' 1.2M drives had some sort of dual-speed 300/360 RPM capability under the hood,
even if it wasn't publicized. Much like some 3.5" 1.44MB drives today.
The NEC approach always appealed to me--the same recording format and data rate across the
whole range 8"-5.25"-3.5".
The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the
company that the
"shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would
succeed
would be the one with software availability. So, they overextended
themselves creating a software publishing/distribution company
providing MOST of the big popular software titles on 3.25".
'Course George Morrow said that the solution was to cut a deal with
the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets to 5.25" or even 8".
I've still got a couple of those drives--labeled "Shugart Venture" when
there were two Shugarts--one in the valley and one in the Santa Cruz mountains. Still
have a box of Dysan diskettes for them, too--but given the poor protection of the
recording medium, the LAST place I'd ever want to put on is in a shirt pocket!
My favorite weird drive was the Amlyn. It was before
the AT came out.
It used a "proprietary" 8 bit ISA controller that had a 500K data
transfer rate (could also be used for 8"). It used a cartridge that held
5 600 Oersted disks (total of 6M), with a few extra holes punched in
corners of the jackets, and could change disks from the cartridge under
software control. One of mine is now in Sellam's collection; NO idea
where the other one is.
I've only seen one of those--and it may have been at a WCCF--reminded me a bit of the
old NCR CRAM.
I've got a couple of the Drivetec drives with the dual-motor embedded servo
positioning system. One is the original 2.88MB model that was in the Kaypro boxes; the
other bears a Kodak nameplate and is a 6MB model.
Cheers,
Chuck
10:35 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
AFAIK, almost all 5.25' 1.2M drives had some sort
of dual-speed 300/360 RPM
capability under the hood, even if it wasn't
publicized.
Yeah, this "feature" has given me quite some headaches.
I use the TEAC FD-235 as the standard in my conversions systems. From new, there
were no problems reading PC and AS/400 disks on the same drive, but suddenly it
could stop reading PC or AS/400 disks.
At last, we found out that the error always occurred on drives assembled or
Malaysia or whereever, while the Japanese drives never had that error. A closer
inspection showed that the malayan motor was to blame, as it couldnt keep up
with the speed changes
cheers
Nico
25 Sep
25 Sep
1:19 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
On 9/25/2005 at 7:35 AM Nico de Jong wrote:
Yeah, this "feature" has given me quite some
headaches.
I use the TEAC FD-235 as the standard in my conversions systems. From new,
there
were no problems reading PC and AS/400 disks on the same drive, but
suddenly it
could stop reading PC or AS/400 disks.
At last, we found out that the error always occurred on drives assembled or
Malaysia or whereever, while the Japanese drives never had that error. A
closer
inspection showed that the malayan motor was to blame, as it couldnt keep
up
with the speed changes
I just keep a couple of 235HF's around--one is jumpered to always do 360 rpm and the
other isn't. :) I used to think that the HG's were magic, but pretty much the
same motor control circuitry is present in both types. So, to get 360 rpm, just remove
the 0-ohm resistor at W4 and ground the side that isn't connected to +5.
Cheers,
Chuck
12:19 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
On 9/24/2005 at 9:52 AM Fred Cisin wrote:
Well, I'm holding one of the diskettes in my hand
right now--it's labeled
2.8" and has no shutter over the access holes. The hub is a hunk of white
plastic (nylon?) about 3/4" in diameter with about a 1/4" center hole and
a very small hole for an indexing pin. These are "flippies"--each side
has its own write-protect punchout tab.
If I remember correcty, these were used in some musical equipment too -
the Korg SQD-1 sequencer and the Akai MD280 disk drive for the S612
sampler. I believe they used more conventional head positioning, but I
could easily be wrong.
Stupidly I passed up the chance to buy an S612 and MD280 a few years ago,
when a music shop near me had one for ?100. They're not fantastic
samplers but they were very unusual.
Gordon.
12:41 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
If I remember correcty, these were used in some
musical equipment too -
the Korg SQD-1 sequencer and the Akai MD280 disk drive for the S612
sampler. I believe they used more conventional head positioning, but I
could easily be wrong.
No, I'm wrong. It seems all the QuickDisk drives used this spiral thing.
Gordon.
12:56 a.m.
New subject: 11/750 power requirements...
Hi,
I have an 11/750 on its way to my home to be installed in my home
office. Just wanted to start site prep'ing. Can the beastie run on
120V @ 20A standard circuit, or will I need to have a 240V circuit run
to power it???
Curt
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 9/23/2005
1:21 a.m.
New subject: 11/750 power requirements...
Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Sunday 25 September 2005 02:56 am:
Hi,
I have an 11/750 on its way to my home to be installed in my home
office. Just wanted to start site prep'ing. Can the beastie run
on 120V @ 20A standard circuit, or will I need to have a 240V circuit
run to power it???
http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/index.html
See the section labelled "hardware checkout".
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
1:25 a.m.
New subject: 11/750 power requirements...
Thanks Patrick! :-)
Curt
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Sunday 25 September
2005 02:56 am:
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 9/23/2005
Hi,
I have an 11/750 on its way to my home to be installed in my home
office. Just wanted to start site prep'ing. Can the beastie run
on 120V @ 20A standard circuit, or will I need to have a 240V circuit
run to power it???
http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/index.html
See the section labelled "hardware checkout".
Pat
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
Ah yes--when it was cheaper to change the drive than
the controller!
AFAIK, almost all 5.25' 1.2M drives had some sort of dual-speed 300/360
RPM capability under the hood, even if it wasn't publicized. Much like
some 3.5" 1.44MB drives today. >
Since both 720K and 1.44M 3.5" disks (on a PC) rotate at 300 rpm, I am
trying to figure out why you'd want a 360rpm 3.5" drive. I've never seen
one...
(600 rpm is another matter...)
-tony
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
On 9/25/2005 at 10:34 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
Since both 720K and 1.44M 3.5" disks (on a PC)
rotate at 300 rpm, I am
trying to figure out why you'd want a 360rpm 3.5" drive. I've never seen
one...
(600 rpm is another matter...)
You've obviously never run into a NEC 9800 PC (or just about any other version of
Japanese MS-DOS) diskette. 77 cylinders of 5x1024 sectors, spinning at 360 RPM, just like
an 8" drive.
Most USB drives understand this format automatically.
Cheers,
Chuck
26 Sep
26 Sep
3:37 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
On 9/25/2005 at 10:34 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
Indeed I haven't.
Since both 720K and 1.44M 3.5" disks (on a
PC) rotate at 300 rpm, I am
trying to figure out why you'd want a 360rpm 3.5" drive. I've never seen
one...
(600 rpm is another matter...)
You've obviously never run into a NEC 9800 PC (or just about any other version of Japanese MS-DOS) diskette. 77 cylinders of
5x1024 sectors,
spinning at 360 RPM, just like an 8" drive.
I am puzzled as to why that would spin at 360rpm. The format would be
possible on a '720K' drive turning at 300 rpm using the normal 250kbps
double-density data rate. If you double the data rate to 500kbps, you
should be able to get more that 5 sectors, even at the faster spindle
speed.
What was the data rate at the interface connector of these Japanese machines?
Most USB drives understand this format automatically.
Not having got anything that supports the useless serial botch interface,
I've not looked at such drives.
-tony
5:51 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
On 9/26/2005 at 11:37 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
I am puzzled as to why that would spin at 360rpm. The
format would be
possible on a '720K' drive turning at 300 rpm using the normal 250kbps
double-density data rate. If you double the data rate to 500kbps, you
should be able to get more that 5 sectors, even at the faster spindle
speed.
Sorry--I tried to answer two emails at the same time and got my wires crossed. It's
8x1024. Data rate is 500K at 360RPM, just like the 8" drives. The NECs even aped
the 8" drives, in using "drive ready" lines instead of the silly "try
the operation and see if the 765 hangs" nonsense of the PC. I can't remember if
DOS-J used the polling feature of the 765,however.
Legend has it that the uPD 765 originated at Intel. When Intel couldn't get it
working right, the design was swapped to NEC for the fancy 1024x1024 CRT controller chip
used on the later APCs. NEC later relicensed the updated design back to Intel and Intel
called it the 8272. Anyone know if this is accurate?
Cheers,
Chuck
6:48 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
> You've obviously never run into a NEC 9800 PC
(or just about any other
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
Indeed I haven't.
Maybe the engineers just REALLY preferred 8" drives?
version of Japanese MS-DOS) diskette. 77
cylinders of 5x1024 sectors,
spinning at 360 RPM, just like an 8" drive.
I am puzzled as to why that would spin at 360rpm. The format would be
possible on a '720K' drive turning at 300 rpm using the normal 250kbps
double-density data rate. If you double the data rate to 500kbps, you
should be able to get more that 5 sectors, even at the faster spindle
speed.
What was the data rate at the interface connector of these Japanese machines?
NEC is probably NOT using a WD FDC :-)
The index gap has to be larger for the basic 765 setup than with WD.
The rest of the gaps are similar between NEC and WD.
At 300K bits per second with 360 RPM, the format would be similar to
250K bits per second at 300 RPM, which is what we are used to.
5 * 1024 is a good format for that.
Getting 5 * 1024 with 250K bits per second at 360RPM would require some
very tight sector gaps.
500K bits per second at 360 RPM can handle 8 * 1024, or 9 * 1024 with
tight gaps.
Not having got anything that supports the useless
serial botch interface,
I've not looked at such drives.
I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power
from USB. It seemed to work OK.
8:14 p.m.
New subject: USB Power (was Odd Floppy Drives)
On 9/26/2005 at 6:48 PM Fred Cisin wrote:
I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets
its power
from USB. It seemed to work OK.
USB is downright handy for stealing power--and easier than stealing it from the keyboard
port. I run a script on the server here that has the audio card hooked to a cheap FM
transmitter. The transmitter took 3 AA cells, but grabbing +5 from a spare USB port works
just fine. 106.7 on any radio in the house gets BBC World Service in the morning, BBC
Radio 3 in the afternoon and BBC 7 in the evening. Much better than the commercial-laden
garbage that passes for commercial radio here. Broadband has to be good for something,
even when you're not sitting in front of the screen.
I discovered a carton of Toshiba InTouch modules in the garage--these are USB devices that
are basically an LCD display with a bunch of buttons, a volume control and an IR sensor on
two boards in a plastic case that was supposed to fit under the monitor of the Infinia. I
don't have Windows drivers for the things, so they're pretty useless as-is, but
they've got a nice Toshiba 5343DGYTN LCD display board in them. I have the pinout of
the display board and how to drive it from a PC parallel port (the controller is an OKI
M5260). The USB part of the board is all SMT with an Intel USB controller (basically an
8051 with USB support on it); code seems to be in a 27C256 OTP PROM...shrug. All in
original shrink-wrap boxes. If anyone wants one, I'll let them go for my cost--$5
each + whatever it costs to mail. The flotsam keeps washing up on the beach and I'm
just trying to keep it out of the landfill or from poisoning some Chinese peasant.
Cheers,
Chuck
11:24 p.m.
New subject: USB Power
The driver is still available from Toshiba, but only for windows 95:
http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/su/su_sc_modSel.jsp
enter desktop/infinia/7200 (for example) then grab the InTouch module
driver for windows 95.
Course then the fun begins. I recommend Win95 in a VMWare session under
Linux and dumping the protocol from there. ;-)
--
Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org
Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/
BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun!
27 Sep
27 Sep
9:39 a.m.
New subject: USB Power
On 9/27/2005 at 12:24 AM Tim Riker wrote:
The driver is still available from Toshiba, but only
for windows 95:
http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/su/su_sc_modSel.jsp
enter desktop/infinia/7200 (for example) then grab the InTouch module
driver for windows 95.
Course then the fun begins. I recommend Win95 in a VMWare session under
Linux and dumping the protocol from there. ;-)
Tim, I'm familiar with the available drivers, but there are several types of InTouch
modules, all mutually incompatible. Toshiba had their own mods to the BIOS (and
apparently some peculiar USB hacks). I've got a 7202 and a 7230 Infinia here and can
tell you that the 7200 driver software doesn't work on them or any other PC that
I've tried it on--and that the 7200 InTouch (which I have the bunch of) is
substantially different from the InTouch modules that came with the two above-mentioned
systems (they don't have an LCD display, for example, and the chipset is completely
different internally).
I suppose I could take a lot of time disassembling the 7200 drivers and try to figure out
what's going on, but can't find a reason why I'd want to do it. I bought the
carton because a client needed a couple of these and purchasing the carton was cheaper
than buying them individually.
The Infinia was a love-hate thing for many people, like the IBM multimedia PC that came
out at about the same time. To me, they're just another couple of systems hanging
around that occasionally come in useful for testing.
Cheers,
Chuck
3:23 a.m.
New subject: USB Power (was Odd Floppy Drives)
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I discovered a carton of Toshiba InTouch modules in
the garage--these are USB devices that are basically an LCD display with a bunch of
buttons, a volume control and an IR sensor on two boards in a plastic case that was
supposed to fit under the monitor of the Infinia. I don't have Windows drivers for
the things, so they're pretty useless as-is, but they've got a nice Toshiba
5343DGYTN LCD display board in them. I have the pinout of the display board and how to
drive it from a PC parallel port (the controller is an OKI M5260). The USB part of the
board is all SMT with an Intel USB controller (basically an 8051 with USB support on it);
code seems to be in a 27C256 OTP PROM...shrug. All in original shrink-wrap boxes. If
anyone wants one, I'll let them go for my cost--$5 each + whatever it costs to mail.
The flotsam keeps washing up on the beach and I'm just trying to keep it out of the
landfill or from poisoning some Chinese peasant.
I'll have one. Do you take paypal (and let's not have that big long
discussion again. If you fancy working out how to pay someone $5 from
the UK, I'd love to hear about it.)
Gordon.
11:01 a.m.
New subject: USB stuff
I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power
from USB. It seemed to work OK.
I am wonderign why you'd want that. Personally, I find a PSU easier to
move around than a computer. If it's for use in a car, I'll either use
the cigar lighter, or add a power output socket somewhere sane.
I do curse IBM for not providing a +5V output on the printer port, though :-)
-tony
12:18 p.m.
New subject: USB stuff
I've seen
an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power
from USB. It seemed to work OK.
I am wonderign why you'd want that. Personally, I find a PSU easier to
move around than a computer. If it's for use in a car, I'll either use
the cigar lighter, or add a power output socket somewhere sane.
I do curse IBM for not providing a +5V output on the printer port, though :-)
-tony
1:10 p.m.
New subject: USB stuff
In message <200509271918.j8RJIaJx007191 at onyx.spiritone.com>
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
Of course I've also seen USB fans... The old
saying about a fool and their
money comes to mind :^)
Have you seen those USB coffee-cup warmers? Geez, there's a useless invention
if there ever was one.
If you don't know why, go work out how much power you can squeeze out of a
USB port's 500mA current-limited 5V line :)
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook
... When I get a better mouse trap built, mice will be an endangered species.
1:51 p.m.
New subject: USB stuff
Philip Pemberton wrote:
Have you seen those USB coffee-cup warmers? Geez, there's a useless invention
if there ever was one.
No...
If you don't know why, go work out how much power
you can squeeze out of a
USB port's 500mA current-limited 5V line :)
Wait ... Let's give it internet
access too ... You do want to know when your
coffee is hot. :)
17 Oct
17 Oct
10:31 a.m.
New subject: USB stuff
On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 19:01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
I am wonderign why you'd want that. Personally, I
find a PSU easier to
move around than a computer. If it's for use in a car, I'll either use
the cigar lighter, or add a power output socket somewhere sane.
The device is
quite practical when hacking at night, plug it in on the
laptop's side USB port and voila, working light. It can be carried
around like a pencil, and weighs very little. If you're going to carry
the laptop around anyway... :)
I think the aquarium is sort of a parody of the whole USB-everything
fad. The fan is BTW very nice when the weather is hot, but it's way too
brittle.
-toresbe
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:53 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
The oddest floppy drive I ever saw was a Helitron drive, at
Helitron Inc, in Boston, when I worked for this little company
CSSN, Inc. Helitron was making the wiring harness for a computer
CSSN (attempted to) sell.
I can't recall the guy's name, but I chatted with him about the
drive. He claims that he was the inventor of the basic floppy
mechanism (circular media in an envelope mounted temporarily in a
frame, etc) and that IBM stole it from him after meeting with
them. The drive I saw of his had a knob on front that selected
the track! Apparently the drive only read/wrote within a track,
and did not electrically select tracks.
While I clearly remember the knob, I know or recall nothing else
about it. I think it was in a cabinet, more-or-less 8" full size,
vertically. Gold anodized? or painted a similar light color. Just
a bunch of them sitting on the shelf.
This was around 1980, maybe 1979. No idea whatever happened to
them. After making the CSSN box (s100, z80, BASF 6172 3-platter
disk, Konan controller, DEI tape, Alloy Eng. interface, PDOS,
etc), and schlepping the unreliable thing to the first COMDEX
(1980?) I never saw them again.
tomj
Various google searches were weak, but found this address:
HELITRON inc.
560 harrison ave
boston 02i 18
From a PDF containing a little ad for them, apparently
reduced to
calculator sales/repair? I know they had fallen far, the shop was
small, a mess, and the guy was sharp, knowledgable, and resentful
of how he feels he was treated.
www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_095/TECH_V095_S0401_P002.pdf -
(Lower left corner, a small ad)
11:31 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:53:39 -0700 (PDT)
Tom Jennings <tomj at wps.com> wrote:
The oddest floppy drive I ever saw was a Helitron
drive, at
Helitron Inc, in Boston, when I worked for this little company
CSSN, Inc. Helitron was making the wiring harness for a computer
CSSN (attempted to) sell.
I can't recall the guy's name, but I chatted with him about the
drive. He claims that he was the inventor of the basic floppy
mechanism (circular media in an envelope mounted temporarily in a
frame, etc) and that IBM stole it from him after meeting with
them. The drive I saw of his had a knob on front that selected
the track! Apparently the drive only read/wrote within a track,
and did not electrically select tracks.
While I clearly remember the knob, I know or recall nothing else
about it. I think it was in a cabinet, more-or-less 8" full size,
vertically. Gold anodized? or painted a similar light color. Just
a bunch of them sitting on the shelf.
This was around 1980, maybe 1979. No idea whatever happened to
them. After making the CSSN box (s100, z80, BASF 6172 3-platter
disk, Konan controller, DEI tape, Alloy Eng. interface, PDOS,
etc), and schlepping the unreliable thing to the first COMDEX
(1980?) I never saw them again.
tomj
The oddest 'floppy' drive that I ever saw was a dictaphone machine that
recorded by cutting helical audio tracks like a phonograph record on a
thin 'floppy' plastic disk. Ooops, it wasn't digital (unless you held
it in your fingers).
Various google searches were weak, but found this address:
HELITRON inc.
560 harrison ave
boston 02i 18
From a PDF containing a little ad for them,
apparently reduced to
calculator sales/repair? I know they had fallen far, the shop
was
small, a mess, and the guy was sharp, knowledgable, and resentful
of how he feels he was treated.
www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_095/TECH_V095_S0401_P002.pdf -
(Lower left corner, a small ad)
11:45 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
The oddest 'floppy' drive that I ever saw was
a dictaphone machine that
recorded by cutting helical audio tracks like a phonograph record on a
thin 'floppy' plastic disk. Ooops, it wasn't digital (unless you held
it in your fingers).
<nitpick>
grooves "like a phonograph record" would be "SPIRAL", NOT
"helical".
"Helical" would be like a spiral stair case, or threads on a bolt.
Some of the early (Edison?) sound recorders DID cut helical threads on the
outside of a cylinder.
</nitpick>
12:39 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
On 9/24/2005 at 11:45 AM Fred Cisin wrote:
<nitpick>
grooves "like a phonograph record" would be "SPIRAL", NOT
"helical".
"Helical" would be like a spiral stair case, or threads on a bolt.
Some of the early (Edison?) sound recorders DID cut helical threads on the
outside of a cylinder.
</nitpick>
I think a little leeway can be granted here--after all, the common garden snail, helix
hortensis (whence comes our word "helix") is actually more of a spiral than a
helix:
http://www.weichtiere.at/Schnecken/galerie/galerie_1024.html
And the species of tuba known as a helicon has a distinctly spiral shape:
http://www.horncollector.com/Low%20Brass/Helicon/Helicon%201.jpg
Perhaps an easy way to remember the difference is that a helix is the shape of a spiral
staircase! :)
Cheers,
Chuck
8:51 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
... that would be (or describes) the Gray 'Audograph', made by Northern
Electric (at least in Canada, perhaps by Western Electric in the US).
Circa mid-1940s. The disc is 6.5 in. diameter, holding one reminds one very
much of a bare floppy removed from it's envelope: similar weight (floppiness),
except it's a translucent deep-blue.
(Yes, I do have one (the recorder/player and several blank discs)).
Fred Cisin wrote:
The oddest 'floppy' drive that I ever saw
was a dictaphone machine that
recorded by cutting helical audio tracks like a phonograph record on a
thin 'floppy' plastic disk. Ooops, it wasn't digital (unless you held
it in your fingers).
<nitpick>
grooves "like a phonograph record" would be "SPIRAL", NOT
"helical".
"Helical" would be like a spiral stair case, or threads on a bolt.
Some of the early (Edison?) sound recorders DID cut helical threads on the
outside of a cylinder.
</nitpick>
Well, the tracking is performed by a helical-thread drive mechanism :)
Actually it's a little unusual in that (in contrast to record players and disc
drives) the head/needle is stationary and the disc is moved 'radially' (as well
as rotating of course).
25 Sep
25 Sep
2:31 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
... that would be (or describes) the Gray 'Audograph', made by Northern
Electric (at least in Canada, perhaps by Western Electric in the US). The oddest 'floppy' drive that I ever saw
was a dictaphone machine that
recorded by cutting helical audio tracks like a phonograph record on a
thin 'floppy' plastic disk. Ooops, it wasn't digital (unless you held
it in your fingers).
24 Sep
24 Sep
7:30 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
He claims that he was the inventor of the basic
floppy mechanism ... This was around 1980, maybe 1979.
69 ~ 70?
I mean, by 1980 floppies were down to 5.25" and the 8"
had been out well over 5 years. Maybe the guy with the
knob drive was lying even harder than you suspected.
John A.
26 Sep
26 Sep
5:59 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, John Allain wrote:
Subject: Re: Odd floppy drives (Helitron)
Sorry, I was unclear -- I meant I *saw* all this stuff in 1980 or
so, and yes, it was quite old then, but I'd guess (flat out guess)
that it was "new" in the 1960's.
He claims that he was the inventor of the basic
floppy mechanism ... This was around 1980, maybe 1979.
69 ~ 70?
I mean, by 1980 floppies were down to 5.25" and the 8"
had been out well over 5 years. Maybe the guy with the
knob drive was lying even harder than you suspected.
24 Sep
24 Sep
4:16 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the
company that the
"shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would
succeed
I've always felt that the 3" (Hitachi) disk, as used by Amstrad, was
mechanically superior to the 3.5" disk...
would be the one with software availability. So, they
overextended
themselves creating a software publishing/distribution company
providing MOST of the big popular software titles on 3.25".
'Course George Morrow said that the solution was to cut a deal with
the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets to 5.25" or even 8".
FWIW, some Barbour raincoats have inside pockets large enough to take 8"
floppies (unfolded, of course).
My favorite weird drive was the Amlyn. It was before the AT came out.
It used a "proprietary" 8 bit ISA controller that had a 500K data
transfer rate (could also be used for 8"). It used a cartridge that held
5 600 Oersted disks (total of 6M), with a few extra holes punched in
corners of the jackets, and could change disks from the cartridge under
software control. One of mine is now in Sellam's collection; NO idea
where the other one is.
Somewhere I have another Epson 5.25" drive. It's odd. It's got 2
logic-level cables going to it (i.e. not counting the power cable, which
looks conventional), one 34 pin, the other 20 pin. It's in a case about
the same size as the Epson TF20 with a controller board and a PSU. The
controller has what seems to be an MFM _hard disk_ conteoller chip on it.
the interface to the drive looks very much like ST506.
I have no idea what it was designed to be used with, I've never seen a
disk for it.
-tony
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
> The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet
the company that the
> "shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that
would succeed
> would be the one with software availability.
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote:
I've always felt that the 3" (Hitachi) disk,
as used by Amstrad, was
mechanically superior to the 3.5" disk...
Between the 3", 3.25", and 3.5", the 3" does seem to be the best.
BUT, THAT isn't what decides what becomes the defacto standard.
Dysan thought that it was software availability.
Tony seems to think that quality is a factor.
But it all finally comes down to what do the BIG companies choose.
FWIW, some Barbour raincoats have inside pockets large
enough to take 8"
floppies (unfolded, of course).
Somewhere I have another Epson 5.25" drive. It's odd. It's got 2
logic-level cables going to it (i.e. not counting the power cable, which
looks conventional), one 34 pin, the other 20 pin. It's in a case about
the same size as the Epson TF20 with a controller board and a PSU. The
controller has what seems to be an MFM _hard disk_ conteoller chip on it.
the interface to the drive looks very much like ST506.
25 Sep
25 Sep
2:22 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
Between the 3", 3.25", and 3.5", the
3" does seem to be the best.
BUT, THAT isn't what decides what becomes the defacto standard.
Dysan thought that it was software availability.
Tony seems to think that quality is a factor.
I think you misunderstood me. What matters _to me_ is the (design)
quality. I've long since realised that's generally a reason for something
to be non-successful. After all, the IBM PC caught on, as did VHS (in the
latter case, the Philips V2000 system was better designed and better built).
-tony
9:57 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated:
If you're talking about VHS and Beta, I suspect that VHS won because the
licensor allowed the adult movie industry (read: porn) to make VHS tapes
while Sony (holders of the Beta format) did not license their technology to
the adult movie industry (read: porn).
Now, in reguards to that, the PC had four things going for it: 1) I 2) B
3) M 4) cheap to license. I also seem to recall that IBM wanted too much
money to license MCA so the industry just ignored that.
-spc (Now, had IBM licenced MCA to the adult industry (read: porn) it
might still be a viable contender today 8-P
Between the 3", 3.25", and 3.5",
the 3" does seem to be the best.
BUT, THAT isn't what decides what becomes the defacto standard.
Dysan thought that it was software availability.
Tony seems to think that quality is a factor.
I think you misunderstood me. What matters _to me_ is the (design)
quality. I've long since realised that's generally a reason for something
to be non-successful. After all, the IBM PC caught on, as did VHS (in the
latter case, the Philips V2000 system was better designed and better built). 
11:59 a.m.
New subject: Early adopters (was: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:
If you're talking about VHS and Beta, I suspect
that VHS won because the
licensor allowed the adult movie industry (read: porn) to make VHS tapes
while Sony (holders of the Beta format) did not license their technology to
the adult movie industry (read: porn). . . .
-spc (Now, had IBM licenced MCA to the adult industry (read: porn) it
might still be a viable contender today 8-P
It seems that the early adopters of any technology, necessary to insure
success, tend to be: pornographers, religious fanatics, and geeks.
Without any of those three, most technologies won't survive long enough to
become dominant.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:52 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
to be
non-successful. After all, the IBM PC caught on, as did VHS (in the
latter case, the Philips V2000 system was better designed and better built).
If you're talking about VHS and Beta, I suspect that VHS won because the
25 Sep
25 Sep
12:25 a.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
The Dysan
3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the
"shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would
succeed
I've always felt that the 3" (Hitachi) disk, as used by Amstrad, was
mechanically superior to the 3.5" disk...
2:39 p.m.
New subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis
>> The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the
>> "shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that
would succeed
>
> I've always felt that the 3" (Hitachi) disk, as used by Amstrad, was
> mechanically superior to the 3.5" disk...
I was refering to the disk design, bot the drive here. The 3.5" disk
shutter is a very poor design IMHO and one that's caused me a fair amount
of dismantling over the years to remove shutters stuck in drives.
... except when the rubber band wore out. You could often get away with
I don't know who made the Amstrad 3" drives, but the Hitachi ones I have
(and have the service manual for) have a direct-drive spindle motor. No
rubber driver beld.
adjusting the tension, but when the belt was gone, it
was new drive time.
Or was it? Digging through a pile of scrap bought from another shop that
I thought at least one of the Amstrad service manuals gave a part number
for the belt.
Nothing else ever went wrong with them. Ever. After
WWIII when we have
all perished in nuclear flames, the only living things on Earth will be
the cockroaches, and they will be typing up their stories on Amstrad
PCW8512s.
ALthough the later daisywheel printer version suffers from a cracked
print hammer armature quite often. The printer seems to work, but nothing
appears on the paper.
I still have the service manuals for the 3 main types of PCWs. But I
suspect most, if not all, spares are now unobtainium
-tony
24 Sep
24 Sep
3:56 p.m.
Look for Epson 3.5" drives, they are plastic,
have to remove the
Remind me to keep well away from them...
On the other hand I do like the Epson 1/3rd height 5.25" drives, as used
in the QX10, etc. They have a voice coil postioner and an optical
feedback transducer, like a miniature RK05 :-).
-tony
6771
days inactive
6795
days old
48 comments
21 participants
participants (21)
-
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
jpero＠sympatico.ca -
nico＠FARUMDATA.DK -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
spc＠conman.org -
Tim＠Rikers.org -
tomj＠wps.com -
toresbe＠ifi.uio.no -
vcf＠siconic.com