I'm surprised that the Packard-Bell PB250 wasn't considered. It could run from a standard US lighting circuit. Circa (IIRC) 1959. Not a drum machine, but used a recirculating magnetostrictive memory. It also seems that there may have been a few military computers that would satisfy your criteria. As Will has stated "first" is a very dangerous word and "minicomputer" is, in fact, a term of art. Like pornography, it's what it is because someone says so. --Chuck

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014, Evan Koblentz wrote: ...in order to sell them to government entities that weren't allowed to purchase "computers". Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/

Still another concern is the misleading title. It says "who built the (ahem) 'first' minicomputers" but then it says one-off military systems are excluded, as are anything not widely produced, etc. .... Steve sorry to pick on you :) ... I know this is just your personal site, not intended as any definitive .... but "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". If you're going to say something is "the first" then you must be VERY specific and damn certain.

On 24/01/2014 15:02, William Donzelli wrote: I don't think any one would or should assume DEC was the first. Whilst I think many would agree that they made more than any one else and were the most successful dedicated maker, other might want SUN or even HP on the list. Most days I can see PDP/11 and PDP/8 boards on Ebay UK but stuff from any of the other mini makes, other than SUN seldom show.... Dave

as has been mentioned here: that the term "Mini-computer" is somewhat marketing driven: "In a 1970 survey, the *New York Times <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times>* suggested a consensus definition of a minicomputer as a machine costing less than 25 000 USD,with an input-output device such as a teleprinter and at least 4K <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4000_%28number%29> words of memory, that is capable of running programs in a higher level language, such as Fortran<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran>or Basic." To me, that sounds a bit like the definition was for a "3M" workstation: At least a Meg of RAM, a megapixel display, and 1 MIPS of computing power. On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 3:20 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote:

I see that someone closer to the time (written in 1973) also had a go at this classification problem: ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/5/31174/01451252.pdf "This article traces the evolution of minicomputers from 1955 to 1973 and forecasts their near-future characteristics and uses." But it is paywalled so I can't see the content.

On 24/01/2014 22:46, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: Something the salesman tells you is cheaper than a mainframe. Something that the salesman tells you is more expensive than a mini, but is more reliable, more powerfull and more versatile than a minicomputer...

I have an IEEE Explore account which allows me to download the doc. FWIW" The first commercially available minicomputers (then called "small-scale computers") emerged in the period 1955-1956. They were the Burroughs E-101, Bendix G-15, and Librascope LGP-30 . The next significant advance in the development of minicomputers came in 1960 with the announcement of .the Control Data CDC-160 and the IBM-1620. 1These marked the beginning of solid-state minis by using discrete transistor logic and magnetic core memory. . The next period of interest in the evolution of minicomputers came during the period 1963-1963. The highlights were significant price reductions, capability for real-time acquisition and control, initial use of compilers and operating systems; and the birth of the now virtually standard 16-b mini. In 1963, Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) introduced the PDP-5. . Again reflecting the impact of improved circuit design and production techniques, the PDP-5 was reimplemented in 1965 to become the PDP-8. . In the latter part of 1965, the 16-b mini was born. Three such machines emerged almost simultaneously: 1. Computer Control Company DDP-116, later becoming the Honeywell 316,416, and 516; 2. Data Machines, Inc. DATA-620, later becoming the Varian Data Machines 620i, 620f, 620L, and V-73; 3. IBM-1800 for system control and a variation called the IBM-1130 for scientific computation One man's opinion, JOHN KOUDELA, JR., then of Varian. Interesting to compare the two attempts :-) Tom

On 24/01/2014 21:20, William Donzelli wrote: No! IBM did make "Mini Computers" e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=IBM_Series/1 Just not many....... ... as for System/3 & system/36 (and System/38) they are not "minis" in the DEC sense of the word. Not sure how you define "mini" to exclude them, as they are the right size.... But :- I guess I would want a "mini" to have a "bus" and these don't have a BUS. I would want to be able to write my own OS and you can't do that on these. .... I guess the IBM1130 and IBM1800 were also "minis", as they were used in that sort of way.... I guess we could discuss this for ages, but does any one else consider the S/36 to be a "mini".... Dave

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014, Dave wrote: "You can carry a microcomputer on a bus." "A minicomputer HAS a bus. Carrying one ON a bus creates an argument with the driver." "There isn't any way to get a mainfrome onto a bus."

Only if you have a _really_ big bus. Mainframes often fill rooms, not vehicles... ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 3:23:00 PM Subject: Re: Who built the first minicomputers? On 1/24/2014 3:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: Umm rear doors :-)

You are forgettign the bus driver [1] or comductor [2]. They tend ot object if you try to bring even asinge 19" rack cabinet onto a bus. LEt alone a mainframe... [1] Not an 8881 [2] And not ribbon cable. -tony (Who once witnessed a London bus driver saying 'You are not bringing that sheep onto my bus')

They are unlikely to be house-trained for one thing. -tony

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 08:41:09PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: I sometimes say I collect buses. In my garage you'll find several: Omnibus Unibus Qbus Laserbus Futurebus XIO PCI ISA And probably a few more. /P

Was the person who was bringing the sheep onto the bus named Tom Good? On Jan 25, 2014, at 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

a BUS. A couple of years ago I brought a PDP-11/05 to World Maker Faire (NYC). That involved bringing the computer with me on the bus from NJ into the city and then on the New York subway with two transfers.