22 Feb
2004
22 Feb
'04
10:49 a.m.
der Mouse <mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote:
As may be. Do they not have keyboards?
Well, OK, I would argue that the keyboard of a 19th century typewriter is still
an ASCII entry device. Any time you produce letter 'A', even if you handwrite
it or type it on a 19th century typewriter, you are actually producing the
fundamental symbol ("symbol" defined as "signal element" in
communication
theory) 1000001 in a roundabout way, whether you realise this or not. Kids who
handwrite letters and 19th century people who typed on typewriters certainly
don't/didn't realise that they are actually generating ASCII letters, but
that's what they are fundamentally (see my previous message in response to
Kevin).
I do? I don't know where it originated.
Well, it's certainly more than 10 years old and on-topic for this list, so if
I'm wrong on this, ClassicCmpers please correct me, but I think the Alt key
originates at the time when people began to stray from the sanctity of the
Terminal and started entertaining the fad of "personal computer" /
"workstation". That's when they moved Esc and Ctrl from where the Gods and
Goddesses of ASCII placed them (immediately to the left of 1 and A,
respectively), thinking that people don't need them anymore. This is the shift
in mentality that I am revolting against: previously everyone was required to
know the ASCII chart by heart and everybody used Ctrl and Esc to enter special
codes. Anyone who typed on a keyboard knew that he (yes, HE!) was sending
CODES to the computer. Then the mentality changed to the current fucking M$
Word mentality, where the luser (a chick) knows nothing about Computer Science
and only know "to invoke this function in Word, I press Alt-this..."
What _I_ dislike about the LK401 (and LK201, for that
matter) is that
the <X] key and the right Shift key are single keys; I want each of
those to be split into two keys.
Let me guess... You want it like the VT100 keyboard (and all truly Classic
ASCII keyboards of the Golden Age) where in that area you had 4 separate keys
generating ASCII BS, Delete, CR, and LF, right? If so, I'm in perfect
agreement!
MS
22 Feb
22 Feb
11:01 a.m.
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote:
der Mouse <mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote:
^^^^^
NO IT IS NOT!!! Jeeze Mike - do you not understand what ASCII means, or
whatit does, or what it is for - on the most fundamental of levels?
Or are ya just yankin' all our chains at once here.... ;}
-OR-
Are you smoking/sniffing/drinking/huffing any of a variety of
Substances that may (or may not) have sufficient psychological and
psychotropic manifestations that would permit you to deliver the several
screeds that you have vouschafed unto us???
Enquiring minds....
Cheers
John
PS: I was gonna pick apart the rest of this crap - but I'v got some eBay
auctions closing, so I must Divert...
As may be. Do they not have keyboards?
Well, OK, I would argue that the keyboard of a 19th century typewriter is still
an ASCII entry device. Any time you produce letter 'A', even if you handwrite
3:30 p.m.
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote:
Well, OK, I would argue that the keyboard of a 19th
century typewriter is still
an ASCII entry device. Any time you produce letter 'A', even if you handwrite
HARRUMPH! Young punks.
Never heard of Hollerith?
The early user interfaces were all point and grunt.
Then they developed icons (and built pyramids).
Later on, they went to phoneme based character sets in
most of the world, with a few exceptions, such as Kanji.
It was only thirty years ago that they switched from EBCDIC, etc.
to ASCII.
And twenty years ago that they did a really great job
of going back to sub-literate point and grunt computing.
(remember, "Hey! We were watching that!")
ASCII is an imperceptible ethnocentric blip in history.
Although ASCII had an impressive rate of acceptance,
its longevity does not compare even with Hollerith,
EBCDIC, Murray, or Baudot.
UNICODE is NOT the answer; but it is at least an
acknowledgement of the existence of the problem.
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, John Lawson wrote:
Are you smoking/sniffing/drinking/huffing any of a
variety of
Substances that may (or may not) have sufficient psychological and
psychotropic manifestations that would permit you to deliver the several
screeds that you have vouschafed unto us???
... AND NOT SHARING??!??
4 p.m.
>>>Never heard of Hollerith?
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
Everybody, remember Hollerith's 39th Birthday is
later this week!!!!!!!!
39 years ago???????
That's about when I started learning to program -
hardly a significant event!
20 years later, punch cards were vanishing.
Herman Hollerith lived from 1860 to 1929. ?
He was best known for his punch card processing of the 1890 census.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:11 a.m.
As may be. Do
[typewriters] not have keyboards?
Well, OK, I would argue that the keyboard of a
19th century
typewriter is still an ASCII entry device. Any time you produce letter 'A', even if you
handwrite it or type it
on a 19th century typewriter, you are actually producing the
fundamental symbol ("symbol" defined as "signal element" in
communication theory) 1000001 in a roundabout way, whether you
realise this or not.
Do you actually know anything of the history of alphabetic writing? Do
you know how utterly insane it is to try to consider ASCII primal, when
anything significantly similar to the English alphabet is a relatively
recent innovation?
This stance is not even logically defensible, because it leaves no
place for symbols that do not have ASCII codepoints, yet the only
difference between (say) a handwritten A and a handwritten symbol of
comparable complexity with no codepoint is that one has more widespread
cultural and linguistic recognition and utility than the other. It
also runs into problems where a single graphic symbol may correspond to
various codepoints. (I'm thinking in particular of the
line-and-two-arcs drawing typically read in English as a `B'. It could
be any of at least three and probably more semantically distinct
characters: think English, Russian, and Greek. For that matter, in the
right context it could even be the number thirteen.)
What _I_
dislike about the LK401 (and LK201, for that matter) is
that the <X] key and the right Shift key are single keys; I want
each of those to be split into two keys.
Let me guess... You want it like the
VT100 keyboard (and all truly
Classic ASCII keyboards of the Golden Age) where in that area you had
4 separate keys generating ASCII BS, Delete, CR, and LF, right? 
12:50 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse
Sent: 22 February 2004 22:12
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: lk401 keyboard protocol?
Perhaps that prospect doesn't bother you. Perhaps being Pure
matters more than communication with other people. In that
case, go right ahead. But I, for one, will then soon be
mechanically ignoring you.
This is why I stopped helping him with the VT420 stuff. It might just be me,
but I like being thanked for the help every now and then. That didn't happen
in this case.
Looking at the rest of the responses I'm glad I wasn't around today!
Cheers
w
11:12 a.m.
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote:
Well, OK, I would argue that the keyboard of a 19th
century typewriter
is still an ASCII entry device. Any time you produce letter 'A', even if
you handwrite it or type it on a 19th century typewriter, you are
actually producing the fundamental symbol ("symbol" defined as "signal
element" in communication theory) 1000001 in a roundabout way, whether
you realise this or not. Kids who handwrite letters and 19th century
people who typed on typewriters certainly don't/didn't realise that they
are actually generating ASCII letters, but that's what they are
fundamentally (see my previous message in response to Kevin).
Ok, so what Universal Truth can you point to that 1000001 is the binary
representation for 'A'? Why isn't it 'B' or 'C' or Omega or
Delta or
Bunny Rabbit? Do you realize that the sequence of letters is totally and
completely arbitrary?
Do you realize you are espousing the worst of revisionist historian-like
qualities? Do you expect us to really believe this nonsense that ASCII
was ordained in the hieroglyphics emblazoned on the pyramids or whatever?
Don't you know it's not good to mix drugs?
Well, it's certainly more than 10 years old and
on-topic for this list, so if
I'm wrong on this
Yes, you most certainly are.
ClassicCmpers please correct me, but I think the Alt
key
originates at the time when people began to stray from the sanctity of the
Terminal and started entertaining the fad of "personal computer" /
"workstation".
No, I think the ALT key came about because programmers wanted more unique
keycodes to assign to functions.
That's when they moved Esc and Ctrl from where the
Gods and
Goddesses of ASCII placed them (immediately to the left of 1 and A,
respectively), thinking that people don't need them anymore. This is the shift
in mentality that I am revolting against: previously everyone was required to
know the ASCII chart by heart and everybody used Ctrl and Esc to enter special
Yes, why I remember in grade school having time to memorize my
multiplication tables every day right after I spent 4-6 grueling hours
memorizing the ASCII table. It was a requirement to move from grade to
grade and you couldn't get into college without the ability to recite it
forewards, backwards and sideways. It was also required to get a drivers
license and to get married. Gee, how times have changed. Now, anyone who
can merely pass a driving test can get a license, and just about everyone
(except for siblings and first cousins, at least in this country) can get
married. Imagine that!
codes. Anyone who typed on a keyboard knew that he
(yes, HE!) was sending
CODES to the computer.
Yes, everyone of my generation can immediately convert any 7-bit binary
sequence to ASCII and vice-versa, within a split second. In fact, they
don't even have to think about it. Those who were a bit slack in their
studies as a child have to pull out computation aids, such as a calculator
or a pen and pencil, and only the most wortless amongst us actually have
the gall to pull out an ASCII chart, but we weed those people out of the
gene pool (thank the Gods and Goddesses) so that they won't pollute our
ASCII pureness.
Then the mentality changed to the current fucking M$
Word mentality, where the luser (a chick) knows nothing about Computer Science
and only know "to invoke this function in Word, I press Alt-this..."
So, are you saying all people who use MS Word are losers, and furthermore,
girls (i.e. "chicks")?
Will you look at the time? I've gotta go do my daily recititation of the
ASCII table in front of an ancient oak and sacrifice a wildebeest so that
good fortune and success will be visited upon me this season.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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11:28 a.m.
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Will you look at the time? I've gotta go do my daily recititation of the
ASCII table in front of an ancient oak and sacrifice a wildebeest so that
^^^^^^^^^^
<homer_simpson>
MMMMMMMMM!! Bacon-cheese wildeburgers....!
</homer>
And I wonder just what All This means to those who espouse an ALTernate
Lifestyle???
Cheers
Nikki Tesla
7437
days inactive
7437
days old
8 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dvcorbin＠optonline.net -
jpl15＠panix.com -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG -
vcf＠siconic.com -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk