4 Mar
2004
4 Mar
'04
1:50 a.m.
Hi all,
Recently I found this really cute, but weird-looking thingie. It
seems to be a handheld tool that allowed operators, field engineers
and so on to manually punch a bit of code onto paper tape, or to
modify (patch) an existing tape.
It was made by, or distributed by "Data Processing Accessories"
in the U.K.
Ideas, anyone?
--f
4 Mar
4 Mar
3:15 a.m.
>>>> "Fred" == Fred N van Kempen
<waltje(a)pdp11.nl> writes:
Fred> Hi all, Recently I found this really cute, but weird-looking
Fred> thingie. It seems to be a handheld tool that allowed operators,
Fred> field engineers and so on to manually punch a bit of code onto
Fred> paper tape, or to modify (patch) an existing tape.
Fred> It was made by, or distributed by "Data Processing Accessories"
Fred> in the U.K.
Fred> Ideas, anyone?
I remember those.
From what I remember, the more common use for those
probably was
splicing or repairing torn tape. If what you're talking about is
the
thing I saw, it's a metal base plate with a full set of holes, and a
set of pins where the sprocket holes are. There are flip-down covers
that hold tape onto the base plate. You can hold down a torn tape
with the two ends lined up, then tape them together with special
adhesive tape that's the width of regular paper tape, pre-punched with
a full set of holes. You can then flip down the top lid, which has
guide holes for a punch pin, and run the pin down the holes to clean
up any overhang from the patching tape.
And yes, if you need to make a change to a tape, you can do it with
this as well, provided the change only requires adding holes, not
subtracting them. (Well, I suppose you could subtract by taping
pieces of solid tape over the spot to be changed, and re-punching the
holes you want to keep. That requires using the right kind of tape --
a lot of adhesive tape is transparent, and that wouldn't work well at
all for tape run through optical readers.)
paul
1:23 p.m.
Ps: does anyone have some of the adhesive papertape patches?
Willing to sell a few?
Used to love bring them out (late '70s early 80s ) to a job candidate, and
asking if they knew what they were.
Had a box of them until my last move 2 years ago...now cand find them....
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
>> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:16 AM
>> To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Re: weird find: papertape "patch" puncher
>>
>> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred N van Kempen
<waltje(a)pdp11.nl> writes:
>>
>> Fred> Hi all, Recently I found this really cute, but
>> weird-looking Fred> thingie. It seems to be a handheld
>> tool that allowed operators, Fred> field engineers and so
>> on to manually punch a bit of code onto Fred> paper tape,
>> or to modify (patch) an existing tape.
>>
>> Fred> It was made by, or distributed by "Data Processing
>> Accessories"
>> Fred> in the U.K.
>>
>> Fred> Ideas, anyone?
>>
>> I remember those.
>>
>> >From what I remember, the more common use for those probably was
>> splicing or repairing torn tape. If what you're talking
>> about is the thing I saw, it's a metal base plate with a
>> full set of holes, and a set of pins where the sprocket
>> holes are. There are flip-down covers that hold tape onto
>> the base plate. You can hold down a torn tape with the two
>> ends lined up, then tape them together with special
>> adhesive tape that's the width of regular paper tape,
>> pre-punched with a full set of holes. You can then flip
>> down the top lid, which has guide holes for a punch pin,
>> and run the pin down the holes to clean up any overhang
>> from the patching tape.
>>
>> And yes, if you need to make a change to a tape, you can do
>> it with this as well, provided the change only requires
>> adding holes, not subtracting them. (Well, I suppose you
>> could subtract by taping pieces of solid tape over the spot
>> to be changed, and re-punching the holes you want to keep.
>> That requires using the right kind of tape -- a lot of
>> adhesive tape is transparent, and that wouldn't work well
>> at all for tape run through optical readers.)
>>
>> paul
>>
5 Mar
5 Mar
11:21 a.m.
In message
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"David V. Corbin" <dvcorbin(a)optonline.net> wrote:
Ps: does anyone have some of the adhesive papertape
patches?
Well, seeing as we're on the subject of papertape hardware, I'd
love to get
hold of a papertape punch, reader and a few rolls of papertape. I've been
told nothing beats watching the papertape whizz by as a program is loaded
into RAM. Personally, I think a papertape reader would make a nice addition
to my 6502 single-board computer :). Small size and light weight would be
useful, and operation from 240V AC (or low voltage DC) is essential.
I suppose I could hack together a papertape reader, but I doubt a papertape
punch would be particularly easy to homebrew :(
ISTR someone offered me a punch, reader and a few rolls of paper tape a while
back, but I seem to have lost their email address (something at canada.com
IIRC).
Later,
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Give your child mental blocks for Christmas.
11:45 a.m.
In message
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"David V. Corbin" <dvcorbin(a)optonline.net> wrote:
There have been several designs for homebrew readers, the schematic of
one is in the back of the S100 handbook. The unidentified chips in that
schemaitc are obviously 555 timers, used as schmitt triggers (!). The
only difficult thing to make is the photodiode array for the read head. I
wonder if you could use plastic fibre-optic cable to lead the light from
a row of holes to some normal-size photodetectors mounted on a PCB in a
convenient arrangement. It would be easier than finding some
photodetectors that you could mount on 0.1" centres.
Making a punch is a lot harder!
If you want my recomendations as to units to look out for (assuming you
have a choice).
Punches :
Facit 4070. Easily the top of the list. It's easy to keep going,
mechnicallly simple, and has a simple interface (close to Centronics,
normally). 'Only' 75 cps, though.
Teletype BRPE. OK, it's fast (110cps), but a pain to interface. Not hard
to keep running, though.
Other Data Dynamics units seem to often have interfaces close to the
BRPE, but are slower. Can be useable
The GNT34 isn't bad (and is tiny), but you really want to get one with
electronics (e.g. as part of the Trend Paper Tape Station).
Reders.
If given the choice, get a Trend HSR500 (500cps) or UDR350/UDR700. These
are quite small, have built-in electronics, and go on for ever. It's
almost impossible not to set one up correctly. I _love_ these units. UDRs
and HSR500Ps have a builit-in mains PSU, the HSR500 needs mains (for the
motor), +5V, and IIRC +24V. Not impossible to power. The other advantage
of these units is that they're entirely optical (even the sprocket track)
and have a capstan/pinsh roller tape feed. There are therefore very kind
to the tapes
Other, smaller, optical readers often have optical detection for the data
holes only, with a sprocket wheel driven by a stepper motor to feed the
tape. Typcially limited to 50cps maximum (most are 30cps), they're
useable, but not as kind to the tapes. Facit made a thing which looks
like a modified 4070 punch with such a reader built into the front cover
(and quite complex electronics inside). Useable, but...
Avoild totally mechnanical readers unless you like repairing tapes and
correcting read errors. The Teletype ASR33 is fun, but I wouldn't want to
use one seriously!
-tony
Ps: does anyone have some of the adhesive
papertape patches?
Well, seeing as we're on the subject of papertape hardware,
I'd love to get
hold of a papertape punch, reader and a few rolls of papertape. I've been
told nothing beats watching the papertape whizz by as a program is loaded
into RAM. Personally, I think a papertape reader would make a nice addition
to my 6502 single-board computer :). Small size and light weight would be
useful, and operation from 240V AC (or low voltage DC) is essential.
I suppose I could hack together a papertape reader, but I doubt a papertape
punch would be particularly easy to homebrew :( 
8:04 p.m.
New subject: making PT reader, was re:weird find: papertape "patch" puncher
Tony wrote:
There have been several designs for homebrew readers, the schematic of
one is in the back of the S100 handbook. The unidentified chips in that
schemaitc are obviously 555 timers, used as schmitt triggers (!). The
only difficult thing to make is the photodiode array for the read head. I
wonder if you could use plastic fibre-optic cable to lead the light from
a row of holes to some normal-size photodetectors mounted on a PCB in a
convenient arrangement. It would be easier than finding some
photodetectors that you could mount on 0.1" centres.
One further catch if you are building a tape reader ... or doing a "radical
rebuild"* on a very old design: make sure that the power to the light source
is reasonably well smoothed ... an AC ripple here can lead to mysterious
inconsistencies when trying to read tapes :-)
* before Tony is inclined to accuse me of vandalism here, I'll mention that
this "rebuild" took place 20 more than years ago when I acquire a couple of
old (then!) ex-mainframe tape readers and converted most of the electronics
from discrete (which I didn't understand) to TTL
(which I could get to work)
to interface to a home-brew 6800 system.
Andy
8:47 p.m.
New subject: making PT reader, was re:weird find: papertape "patch" puncher
Andy Holt wrote:
One further catch if you are building a tape reader
... or doing a "radical
rebuild"* on a very old design: make sure that the power to the light source
is reasonably well smoothed ... an AC ripple here can lead to mysterious
inconsistencies when trying to read tapes :-)
Bring in the heafy 12 volt power supply and bulb. :)
* before Tony is inclined to accuse me of vandalism
here, I'll mention that
this "rebuild" took place 20 more than years ago when I acquire a couple of
old (then!) ex-mainframe tape readers and converted most of the electronics
from discrete (which I didn't understand) to TTL (which I could get to work)
to interface to a home-brew 6800 system.
So where does one get a punch cheap too???
Ben.
11:12 p.m.
New subject: making PT reader, was re:weird find: papertape "patch" puncher
So where does one get a punch cheap too???
Ben.
was difficult enough then (~1980) - very much harder now.
A large proportion of UK mainframes of the first 3 generations had at least
one paper-tape reader ... it was the normal boot slow peripheral (mag tape
being the typical default boot fast peripheral). This is in contrast to the
situation in the USA where it appears that cards ruled supreme.
Many of these tape readers were medium speed (300cps), but 1200cps ones were
not uncommon and a Danish(?) company made a fantastic 2000cps reader that
was also fully bidirectional.
Though the second generation machines made much use of papertape, tape
punches were less important and less common on the 3rd generation machines
as now magnetic tapes and even disks were the preferred devices for output
that was to be reinput. They were also rarely high performance (200cps was
the fastest common version).
Oh, and ISTR that the Atlas used 7-track paper tape (6 bit+parity)
Andy
6 Mar
6 Mar
6:28 a.m.
New subject: making PT reader, was re:weird find: papertape "patch" puncher
One further catch if you are building a tape reader
... or doing a "radical
rebuild"* on a very old design: make sure that the power to the light source
is reasonably well smoothed ... an AC ripple here can lead to mysterious
inconsistencies when trying to read tapes :-)
Indeed. Better designed readers are relatively insensitive to light
source variations [1] but I suspect a 50Hz/60Hz/100Hz/120Hz ripple would
cause problems.
Most readers seem to use 12V (car) or 24V (lorry) bulbs. They have the
advantage of being easy to obtain, and can be run off easy-to-make
regulated supplies.
[1[ The Trneds I mentioned have a total of 10 photodiodes in the read
head. One on each data track, 2 on the sprocket track, spaced 0.25" (2.5
characters) apart. A cheacter is in the right position to be read when
the signal from the feed hole sensor exceeds that from the other sensor
by a certain threshold. A weighted average of the signals from these 2
sensors is then used as the threshold for the data tracks.
This system is relativelty insensitive to light source variations,
transparanecy of the tape, etc. There are treakers on the PCB to set
various thresholds, etc, but I have never found their settings to be
critical!
-tony
4 Mar
4 Mar
4:17 a.m.
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
Hi all,
It was made by, or distributed by "Data Processing Accessories"
in the U.K.
See the pics at http://www.microwalt.nl/fred/ptp_patch1.jpg
and ... patch2.jpg.
--f
1:22 p.m.
Please post a picture. I used a hand punch during the summer of 73-74. Was a
real "junkie" then. Did not have access to any hardware for a two week
period during a shutdown, but wanted to be ready when they re-opened.
Ahhh the joys (insanity?) of youth!
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred N.
>> van Kempen
>> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:50 AM
>> To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
>> Subject: weird find: papertape "patch" puncher
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Recently I found this really cute, but weird-looking
>> thingie. It seems to be a handheld tool that allowed
>> operators, field engineers and so on to manually punch a
>> bit of code onto paper tape, or to modify (patch) an existing tape.
>>
>> It was made by, or distributed by "Data Processing Accessories"
>> in the U.K.
>>
>> Ideas, anyone?
>>
>> --f
>>
1:47 p.m.
Hi all,
Recently I found this really cute, but weird-looking thingie. It
seems to be a handheld tool that allowed operators, field engineers
Such things are actually (were actually?) quite common. A little jig to
hold the tape and 2 different diameter punch pins (one for data holes,
one for sprocket holes) to make corrections.
Some of them could also be used to hold 2 pieces of tape which had to be
spliced together. There were special adhesive tape 'patches' that were
used for this -- punched with a complete set of data and sprocket holes.
You used tohse in the obvious way to join the tape.
Incidentally, if you have to splice paper tape and don't have the right
jig, it's worth remembering that the holes are on a 0.1" by 0.1" matrix
and that a piece of stripboard with some pins soldered into it will often
work :-)
-tony
3:53 p.m.
we also had ones that would punch the really wide tape for the formatters
for the line printer!
I remember the tape being much wider though!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: weird find: papertape "patch" puncher
Hi all,
Recently I found this really cute, but weird-looking thingie. It
seems to be a handheld tool that allowed operators, field engineers
Such things are actually (were actually?) quite common. A little jig to
hold the tape and 2 different diameter punch pins (one for data holes,
one for sprocket holes) to make corrections.
Some of them could also be used to hold 2 pieces of tape which had to be
spliced together. There were special adhesive tape 'patches' that were
used for this -- punched with a complete set of data and sprocket holes.
You used tohse in the obvious way to join the tape.
Incidentally, if you have to splice paper tape and don't have the right
jig, it's worth remembering that the holes are on a 0.1" by 0.1" matrix
and that a piece of stripboard with some pins soldered into it will often
work :-)
-tony
4:19 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 07:53:36PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote:
we also had ones that would punch the really wide tape
for the formatters
for the line printer!
I remember the tape being much wider though!
12-channel is common for that application
OnTopicTrivia: IBM protocols like HASP and 3780 allow you to send a
"skip-to-channel N" command to the printer. Your application (FORTRAN,
COBOL, etc) tells the printer to skip to channel 3, say, where you know
it's the right place for a customer address (for example). The printer
advances the carriage until channel 3 shows a hole, then prints from
wherever on the page it is. You can skip from channel to channel (changing
pages if necessary) to avoid having to put row-counts in your application.
You just load the paper tape to match your form, and things appear in the
right place.
So... by convention, "channel 1" is always punched to set the paper to the
top of form. Where, then, is channel 0?
Nowhere.
The protocol allows you to send a "skip-to-channel 0", but there is no
channel zero on the paper tape. The typical response from older hardware
is to empty the box of paper searching for channel 0 (newer hardware
treats it like a Form Feed).
Since we used to emulate IBM printers with COMBOARDs, I found and fixed an
interesting bug once... occasionally our customers would complain that our
product would hang if certain jobs were sent through. Turns out, the daemon
wasn't hanging - it was attempting to fill the disk with blank lines because
we received a skip-to-channel 0 command from the user's program. In other
words, we were trying to empty a virtual box of paper, but the disk was so
large that, before we could fill it, someone noticed that other jobs were
getting stuck and killed the process. I changed the array to *add* a zero
channel to our virtual paper tape (changed the array bounds from 1-12 to 0-12
and always wrote a "1" in location 0 - top of form) and the problem was solved.
Unlike a real printer, it's easy to make it a 13-channel virtual tape when it's
all software.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 05-Mar-2004 02:58 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -41.6 F (-40.9 C) Windchill -102.5 F (-74.7 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 19.4 kts Grid 019 Barometer 677 mb (10740 ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
5 Mar
5 Mar
3:55 a.m.
>>>> "ed" == ed sharpe
<esharpe(a)uswest.net> writes:
ed> we also had ones that would punch the really wide tape for the
ed> formatters for the line printer! I remember the tape being much
ed> wider though!
The holes are generally larger, too, perhaps double size.
More trivia -- everyone knows 8-channel tape, and a lot of people
(older hams especially) know 5-channel tape. There is also 6-channel
tape. It's rather specialized -- you find it in early automated
typesetting machines. Originally it showed up in tape-fed Linotype
machines, then in early optical typesetters. The idea was that you'd
prepare the copy on a paper punch keyboard, and then feed the tapes to
the typesetter. Several keyboard operators could be kept busy feeding
one (very expensive!) typesetter. These 6-channel tapes used a
variety of codes, none bearing any resemblance to anything else you
know...
Much older is Monotype tape, it goes back to the 19th century. That
feeds a Monotype type-casting machine, the usual machine for
typesetting books and the like up to the 1960s or so. I don't know
any of the specifics. Some vague memory says that it had 15 channels,
with only two punched for any one frame. Half the channels would
define an X-position and half a Y-position for an array of type molds
that the casting machine would use. But all that is pretty fuzzy...
paul
11:23 a.m.
More trivia -- everyone knows 8-channel tape, and a
lot of people
(older hams especially) know 5-channel tape. There is also 6-channel
tape. It's rather specialized -- you find it in early automated
That 6 channel typestter tape is strange in one other way. In all other
paper tapes, the centres of the data and sproket holes like on a line
across the tape. On typesetter tape, the leading edges of the holes line
up, not the centres.
This means you can't punch it on a normal punch, no matter what you do
with the edge guides. You need a special die block. Most punch
manufacturers made them (for example there's a special version of the
Facit 4070), but they're not common.
In theory you need a special read head too, but in practice a normal one
will work. However you do need to fiddle with the edge guides...
-tony
7447
days inactive
7449
days old
15 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
andyh＠andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
dvcorbin＠optonline.net -
esharpe＠uswest.net -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
waltje＠pdp11.nl