I have my own take on people selling in this list, which isn't anywhere near as extreme as Sellams. I think it's perfectly OK for people with commercial equipment to *occasionally* post a list, or a link to their site, *providing* the equipment for sale is relevant to the charter of the list. There's a lot of vintage gear in the hands of people who are commercial salvage ops, etc. The more exposed those of us who are not commercial entities, or who don't have the "ins" that some people have to these people, the better. I'll cheerfully buy a PDP-8/e from a commercial dealer as quickly as I would a list member (assuming it's in the ballpark for my thin wallet). What's important to me is that equipment doesn't get scrapped and trashed. If a commercial dealer wants to make some money, well, he's got to have a livelyhood, too. If it keeps a PDP-11/23 from hitting the scrapyard, I'm all for it. I just don't want it to be as intrusive as spam. Limit commercial postings to once a month, or a criteria that it clearly meets "xyz" requirement. Firmly apply the 10 year rule, or perhaps a 15 year rule. We don't need 486 mobos by the trailer listed, they're common junk (to me. Others may have differing opinions, but I'm talking about mine). Better, require someone who's posting commercial bans to clearly put it [Commercial] in the subject, so the hyperphobic on the list can filter it. Drop the user if they fail to put the [commercial] tag in. I personally thought some people were a little over the edge on the PDP-11/23 issue. They certainly wasted a lot more bandwidth than just ignoring it, which is what I do for posts that don't interest me. I don't care if it's on eBay, QVC, or the local newspaper, the point is if someone can save an old machine, that's the priority. You have eBay-phobia? Put a damn filter in your mail to delete all posts with 'ebay.com.*item=' That way, you'll never have to look at another post regarding eBay. If you're going to be self-contradictive and don't filter, then don't bitch about posts like that. Just save the hardware. --John On Wednesday 29 October 2003 18:54 pm, Jay West wrote:

I'd just tell him that the List is for collectors / hobbyists, and while surplusers and dealers on the list being subscribed is not a bad thing per-se, he should understand that we are not businessmen or brokers, so if he offers Stuff it should be on that basis, and not to troll the LIst with items outside the charter - then welcome him aboard. Maybe he forgot about the room full of PDP-6s that he's had in storage for 20 years... it happens! Same goes for the rest of the "Dealer" folks - as long as they stick to our guidelines and don't abuse anyone - then I think they'd be a very valuable source of potential 'finds' - after all - these are the people who are aout all day dealing in used and surplus gear... a lot of them, one I have known for 35 years... won't even consider Minis and that class of gear because it's heavy and no-one wants the stuff anymore... so they all dont' even bother bidding. Many beautiful machines have gone to scrap therefore... ;{ My 2 centz Cheers John

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Jay West wrote: I don't see why he should be excluded. If he makes a general nuisance of himself then we'll be sure to give him a sound drubbing as we always do to folks who abuse their presence, but everyone at least deserves the benefit of the doubt initially. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

This list has been so successful over the years because it's open to every person and opinion on this planet (with a mild suggestion to stay on topic). Unlike a.f.c where moderation and watchdogs stop it from using the potential. The question itself about 'this person' is already a degradeing and not wothy issue. I'd say let everyone in, of course by making it clear that this isn't exactly ebay. Just because he's professional about old computers doesn't make him 'unworthy'. We have more than one member who earns money by selling/maintaining/programming/consulting around old hardware. And what's even more importand (if we already go into the ugly arena of judgeing people without knowing) he is honest about his professional background. I'd be more than happy to wellcome him in our round. And NO, he does not need a _warning_ he hasn't done anything, all that's needed is a clear definition of the (main) purpose of the list to EVERYONE joining, no matter what they tell. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/