22 Jul
2001
22 Jul
'01
1:53 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 2129 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010722/c0af83a8/at…
22 Jul
22 Jul
4:24 p.m.
I don't know anything about these boards that you don't, but since the name is
hard to read, do you suppose that that "RONAN" board could be from KONAN? They
made disk controllers. Is there enough stuff to suggest it's a disk controller,
e.g. PLL components?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 4:53 PM
Subject: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
This didn't go out the first time for some
reason....
I spent the afternoon digging in one of my many piles of computer bits,
looking for some HP9825 calculator interfaces. I found the interfaces,
and I also found some other stuff, including some Apple ][ boards. Not
being an Apple ][ expert, I'm not sure what some of them are, so I'm
asking here. I doubt I've found anything particularly interesting,
though. I'll give details of any identifying labels on the boards, and
the main chips used.
Memsoft TC2E0260. This board looks hand-soldered, and some components are
missing. It's got a 6850 (ACIA), MC3486, MC3487 (Buffers), and TTL glue
on it. And space for a 2716 EPROM.
Advanced Text Systems P.001. Contains a 6520 (PIA), 2 off 7416 (buffers).
There's a DB25 connector on the end of a short length of ribbon cable.
Mountain Computers ROMwriter. Clearly an EPROM programmer, with a 24 pin
ZIF socket. I found 2 of these boards.
Prog RWP. Another EPROM Programmer, this one has a 28 pin ZIF socket.
Also an 8255 (Parallel chip), EPROM, PSU components (to get the Vpp line,
I guess).
ICE Apple Cold Boot Adapter. Contains 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL glue, and a 26
pin header
ICE Multiplexor (sic) Host Adapter. 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL, 20 pin header
Ronan Corp. I can't find a number on this board, and the name is almost
unreadeable. This is not an Apple ][ card, but it was with the above 2
boards and may have something to do with them. It contains a Z80, EPROM,
1K RAM (2*2114), SCX6225 (ASIC/gate array? It's in a PLCC package).
There's a 26 pin header (host?) and a 34 pin + 2*20 pin headers (ST506
hard disk??). There's also a disk-drive like power connector.
Orange Micro Buffered Grappler+. This looks to be a printer
interface/buffer and contains 64K DRAM, EPROM, Microcontroller, TTL glue,
and has a 26 pin header (to the printer?)
Apple Synch Printer Interface Card. I think this is the Silentype interface.
Apple PC Link Interface. Contains an EPROM, M58725, TTL glue and buffers.
Also a 20 pin header.
Does anybody recognise any of those boards and can tell me more about them?
-tony
7:13 p.m.
New subject: Bubble Cassette
I am still going through the junque that came from our radio club bazaar and
came across five modules labeled "Bubble Cassette". It has a small pull tab
that when pulled out, the word "record" appears. This is a new term to me;
anyone know what these things are?
7:52 p.m.
New subject: Bubble Cassette
On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:13:38PM -0700, Marvin wrote:
I am still going through the junque that came from our radio club bazaar and
came across five modules labeled "Bubble Cassette". It has a small pull tab
that when pulled out, the word "record" appears. This is a new term to me;
anyone know what these things are?
Maybe bubble memory? (It stores small magnetic domains or "bubbles", but
it's solid-state.)
23 Jul
23 Jul
7:14 a.m.
New subject: Bubble Cassette
I am still
going through the junque that came from our radio club bazaar and
came across five modules labeled "Bubble Cassette". It has a small pull tab
that when pulled out, the word "record" appears. This is a new term to me;
anyone know what these things are?
Maybe bubble memory? (It stores small magnetic
domains or "bubbles", but
it's solid-state.)
9:29 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 971 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010723/ed427aa1/at…
10:29 a.m.
It's a little hard to guess what sort of interface would have been used to
effect a HDC<=>Host-Adapter interface with 26 conductors, though SCSI/SASI is a
possibility, since there does exist a fairly widely used 25-conductor interface
to that one. It wasn't popular back in the Apple-][ days, though. If it's
intended for internal use only, however, i.e. if there's a box this board goes
in, with the drive and PSU, and a mount for the board on top or bottom of the
drive, or some such, then it's possible that the 26-conductor cable is intended
for use inside the box only and there's some other interface cable configuration
outside the box. Also, it's worth considering that the Apple-][ didn't have a
lot of height to support a 50-conductor, or even 40-conductor cable connector.
Perhaps it's another Apple-ism, forced on the designers by the shape of the box.
I found on GOOGLE that there was once a KONAN HDD Kit for the Apple, ( see
http://download.franklin.com/cgi-bin/franklin/ebookman_free_preview?price10 ).
This might be a clue. I found mention of a"$3,000 price for the Konan 5M
External ST506 Apple Hard Drive Kit in 1979 " that supports this notion.
That same GOOGLE search produced a reference to a SCSI spec of which this table
is a part ... http://dan.emsphone.com/SCSI2/Docs/FTables/s2tabE.1.html
... and this might also be of interest ...
http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1998-04/0198.html
A little more digging (I spent about 2 minutes on this) might turn up something.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
>
> I don't know anything about these boards that you don't, but since the name
is
> hard to read, do you suppose that that
"RONAN" board could be from KONAN?
They
I am almost sure you're right. The label is in the silkscreen along one
edge of the board, and the top half was cut off when the board was
trimmed. KONAN would fit the parts of the letters I have.
> made disk controllers. Is there enough stuff to suggest it's a disk
controller,
e.g. PLL
components?
I am almost sure it is a disk contorller. As I said, it's not an Apple ][
card -- perhaps I should also have said that it doesn't fit a backplane
at all. The external connectors are a 26 pin header for the host
interface (I think), a 34 pin + 2 * 20 pin headers (ST506 hard disk would
look likely), and a power connector, like those found on disk drives. No
card edges. I think this one is a hard disk controller that possibly
links to one of the Apple ][ cards as its host adapter.
-tony
22 Jul
22 Jul
6:54 p.m.
The Ronan/Konan board does sound like a disk controller but I'm not sure
about the Z80 chip? Maybe it's supposed to be a Z80 single board system, on
a card?
Are these cards for sale? I'm an avid Apple II and Apple II clone collector,
so new parts are always fun to find.
Ernest (ernestls(a)home.com)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 3:54 PM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
This didn't go out the first time for some reason....
I spent the afternoon digging in one of my many piles of computer bits,
looking for some HP9825 calculator interfaces. I found the interfaces,
and I also found some other stuff, including some Apple ][ boards. Not
being an Apple ][ expert, I'm not sure what some of them are, so I'm
asking here. I doubt I've found anything particularly interesting,
though. I'll give details of any identifying labels on the boards, and
the main chips used.
Memsoft TC2E0260. This board looks hand-soldered, and some components are
missing. It's got a 6850 (ACIA), MC3486, MC3487 (Buffers), and TTL glue
on it. And space for a 2716 EPROM.
Advanced Text Systems P.001. Contains a 6520 (PIA), 2 off 7416 (buffers).
There's a DB25 connector on the end of a short length of ribbon cable.
Mountain Computers ROMwriter. Clearly an EPROM programmer, with a 24 pin
ZIF socket. I found 2 of these boards.
Prog RWP. Another EPROM Programmer, this one has a 28 pin ZIF socket.
Also an 8255 (Parallel chip), EPROM, PSU components (to get the Vpp line,
I guess).
ICE Apple Cold Boot Adapter. Contains 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL glue, and a 26
pin header
ICE Multiplexor (sic) Host Adapter. 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL, 20 pin header
Ronan Corp. I can't find a number on this board, and the name is almost
unreadeable. This is not an Apple ][ card, but it was with the above 2
boards and may have something to do with them. It contains a Z80, EPROM,
1K RAM (2*2114), SCX6225 (ASIC/gate array? It's in a PLCC package).
There's a 26 pin header (host?) and a 34 pin + 2*20 pin headers (ST506
hard disk??). There's also a disk-drive like power connector.
Orange Micro Buffered Grappler+. This looks to be a printer
interface/buffer and contains 64K DRAM, EPROM, Microcontroller, TTL glue,
and has a 26 pin header (to the printer?)
Apple Synch Printer Interface Card. I think this is the Silentype
interface.
Apple PC Link Interface. Contains an EPROM, M58725, TTL glue and buffers.
Also a 20 pin header.
Does anybody recognise any of those boards and can tell me more
about them?
-tony
8:15 p.m.
it's possible that the Z80 is being used as an IO processor on that board.
At 08:54 PM 7/22/01 -0700, you wrote:
The Ronan/Konan board does sound like a disk controller
but I'm not sure
about the Z80 chip? Maybe it's supposed to be a Z80 single board system, on
a card?
Are these cards for sale? I'm an avid Apple II and Apple II clone collector,
so new parts are always fun to find.
Ernest (ernestls(a)home.com)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 3:54 PM
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
>
>
> This didn't go out the first time for some reason....
>
> I spent the afternoon digging in one of my many piles of computer bits,
> looking for some HP9825 calculator interfaces. I found the interfaces,
> and I also found some other stuff, including some Apple ][ boards. Not
> being an Apple ][ expert, I'm not sure what some of them are, so I'm
> asking here. I doubt I've found anything particularly interesting,
> though. I'll give details of any identifying labels on the boards, and
> the main chips used.
>
> Memsoft TC2E0260. This board looks hand-soldered, and some components are
> missing. It's got a 6850 (ACIA), MC3486, MC3487 (Buffers), and TTL glue
> on it. And space for a 2716 EPROM.
>
> Advanced Text Systems P.001. Contains a 6520 (PIA), 2 off 7416 (buffers).
> There's a DB25 connector on the end of a short length of ribbon cable.
>
> Mountain Computers ROMwriter. Clearly an EPROM programmer, with a 24 pin
> ZIF socket. I found 2 of these boards.
>
> Prog RWP. Another EPROM Programmer, this one has a 28 pin ZIF socket.
> Also an 8255 (Parallel chip), EPROM, PSU components (to get the Vpp line,
> I guess).
>
> ICE Apple Cold Boot Adapter. Contains 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL glue, and a 26
> pin header
>
> ICE Multiplexor (sic) Host Adapter. 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL, 20 pin header
>
> Ronan Corp. I can't find a number on this board, and the name is almost
> unreadeable. This is not an Apple ][ card, but it was with the above 2
> boards and may have something to do with them. It contains a Z80, EPROM,
> 1K RAM (2*2114), SCX6225 (ASIC/gate array? It's in a PLCC package).
> There's a 26 pin header (host?) and a 34 pin + 2*20 pin headers (ST506
> hard disk??). There's also a disk-drive like power connector.
>
> Orange Micro Buffered Grappler+. This looks to be a printer
> interface/buffer and contains 64K DRAM, EPROM, Microcontroller, TTL glue,
> and has a 26 pin header (to the printer?)
>
> Apple Synch Printer Interface Card. I think this is the Silentype
> interface.
>
> Apple PC Link Interface. Contains an EPROM, M58725, TTL glue and buffers.
> Also a 20 pin header.
>
> Does anybody recognise any of those boards and can tell me more
> about them?
>
> -tony
>
23 Jul
23 Jul
5:24 a.m.
That's a pretty safe assumption. Back in the Apple-][ days, XEBEC and others
used Z80's for just that purpose on their bridge controllers, while ADAPTEC used
8085's.
If the board has a power connector, it's pretty suggestive that it wasn't
intended to plug into a backplane. There are exceptions, of course, but few
hard disk interfaces of that era provided power to its drives through the
backplane.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Reed" <geoffr(a)zipcon.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 11:15 PM
Subject: RE: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
it's possible that the Z80 is being used as an IO
processor on that board.
At 08:54 PM 7/22/01 -0700, you wrote:
The Ronan/Konan board does sound like a disk
controller but I'm not sure
about the Z80 chip? Maybe it's supposed to be a Z80 single board system, on
a card?
Are these cards for sale? I'm an avid Apple II and Apple II clone collector,
so new parts are always fun to find.
Ernest (ernestls(a)home.com)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 3:54 PM
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
>
>
> This didn't go out the first time for some reason....
>
> I spent the afternoon digging in one of my many piles of computer bits,
> looking for some HP9825 calculator interfaces. I found the interfaces,
> and I also found some other stuff, including some Apple ][ boards. Not
> being an Apple ][ expert, I'm not sure what some of them are, so I'm
> asking here. I doubt I've found anything particularly interesting,
> though. I'll give details of any identifying labels on the boards, and
> the main chips used.
>
> Memsoft TC2E0260. This board looks hand-soldered, and some components are
> missing. It's got a 6850 (ACIA), MC3486, MC3487 (Buffers), and TTL glue
> on it. And space for a 2716 EPROM.
>
> Advanced Text Systems P.001. Contains a 6520 (PIA), 2 off 7416 (buffers).
> There's a DB25 connector on the end of a short length of ribbon cable.
>
> Mountain Computers ROMwriter. Clearly an EPROM programmer, with a 24 pin
> ZIF socket. I found 2 of these boards.
>
> Prog RWP. Another EPROM Programmer, this one has a 28 pin ZIF socket.
> Also an 8255 (Parallel chip), EPROM, PSU components (to get the Vpp line,
> I guess).
>
> ICE Apple Cold Boot Adapter. Contains 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL glue, and a 26
> pin header
>
> ICE Multiplexor (sic) Host Adapter. 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL, 20 pin header
>
> Ronan Corp. I can't find a number on this board, and the name is almost
> unreadeable. This is not an Apple ][ card, but it was with the above 2
> boards and may have something to do with them. It contains a Z80, EPROM,
> 1K RAM (2*2114), SCX6225 (ASIC/gate array? It's in a PLCC package).
> There's a 26 pin header (host?) and a 34 pin + 2*20 pin headers (ST506
> hard disk??). There's also a disk-drive like power connector.
>
> Orange Micro Buffered Grappler+. This looks to be a printer
> interface/buffer and contains 64K DRAM, EPROM, Microcontroller, TTL glue,
> and has a 26 pin header (to the printer?)
>
> Apple Synch Printer Interface Card. I think this is the Silentype
> interface.
>
> Apple PC Link Interface. Contains an EPROM, M58725, TTL glue and buffers.
> Also a 20 pin header.
>
> Does anybody recognise any of those boards and can tell me more
> about them?
>
> -tony
>
9:33 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1090 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010723/2e10d0c3/at…
5:41 a.m.
At 11:53 PM 7/22/01 +0100, Tony wrote:
Mountain Computers ROMwriter. Clearly an EPROM
programmer, with a 24 pin
ZIF socket. I found 2 of these boards.
Tony,
Like you, I've never been seriously intersted in Apples but I
remember seeing these. I'm not sure exactly what they were intended for but
I'll look through my old magazines and see if I can fidn any ads. FWIW I
passed up one of these that was NIB at a hamfest about 2 years ago.
Joe
9:17 a.m.
Yes, Orange Micro "Grappler" IS almost certainly a printer interface.
Orange Micro was heavily involved with printers and interfaces for them in
the 1980s.
It probably won't help you any, but I'm pretty sure that there was one of
those boards in one of the Apples that I gave away a year ago, and there
is probably documentation for it in the stuff that Sellam got from me.
(Yes, I understand your workshop being crowded. I recently had to give up
2000 sq ft of storage, and had to get rid of lots of stuff, even magazines
and some books.)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:05 a.m.
On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Yes, Orange Micro "Grappler" IS almost
certainly a printer interface.
Orange Micro was heavily involved with printers and interfaces for
them in the 1980s.
As far as I know that's all they made, but I wouldn't be surprised to find
something other than a printer interface in my collection that they made.
It probably won't help you any, but I'm pretty
sure that there was one
of those boards in one of the Apples that I gave away a year ago, and
there is probably documentation for it in the stuff that Sellam got
from me. (Yes, I understand your workshop being crowded. I recently
had to give up 2000 sq ft of storage, and had to get rid of lots of
stuff, even magazines and some books.)
I have the documentation for the card (somewhere :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10:54 p.m.
I have a Buffered Grappler Plus and a copy of the manual. I haven't
used it yet, so I don't have any first hand knowledge on setup, but I
could copy the copy of the manual and send it to anybody that might want
it.
One of these days I'm going to get my Apple stuff sorted out. I still
need to set up my Imagewriter, for instance.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Yes, Orange Micro "Grappler" IS almost certainly a printer interface.
Orange Micro was heavily involved with printers and interfaces for them in
the 1980s.
It probably won't help you any, but I'm pretty sure that there was one of
those boards in one of the Apples that I gave away a year ago, and there
is probably documentation for it in the stuff that Sellam got from me.
(Yes, I understand your workshop being crowded. I recently had to give up
2000 sq ft of storage, and had to get rid of lots of stuff, even magazines
and some books.)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:48 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 660 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010723/466c1cfa/at…
9:03 a.m.
On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Memsoft TC2E0260. This board looks hand-soldered, and
some components are
missing. It's got a 6850 (ACIA), MC3486, MC3487 (Buffers), and TTL glue
on it. And space for a 2716 EPROM.
Advanced Text Systems P.001. Contains a 6520 (PIA), 2 off 7416 (buffers).
There's a DB25 connector on the end of a short length of ribbon cable.
No clue...I have hundreds of Apple ][ boards and have never heard of
these (at least according to current memory).
Mountain Computers ROMwriter. Clearly an EPROM
programmer, with a 24 pin
ZIF socket. I found 2 of these boards.
Prog RWP. Another EPROM Programmer, this one has a 28 pin ZIF socket.
Also an 8255 (Parallel chip), EPROM, PSU components (to get the Vpp line,
I guess).
I've got a couple EPROM programmer boards, but I don't know if I have
either of these. I know with one of them I got the software.
ICE Apple Cold Boot Adapter. Contains 6116 RAM, EPROM,
TTL glue, and a 26
pin header
ICE Multiplexor (sic) Host Adapter. 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL, 20 pin header
Interesting. Again, never heard of them. They sound like some sort of
terminal server system, maybe allowing an Apple to be shared? Naw, that's
silly.
Ronan Corp. I can't find a number on this board,
and the name is
almost unreadeable. This is not an Apple ][ card, but it was with the
above 2 boards and may have something to do with them. It contains a
Z80, EPROM, 1K RAM (2*2114), SCX6225 (ASIC/gate array? It's in a PLCC
package). There's a 26 pin header (host?) and a 34 pin + 2*20 pin
headers (ST506 hard disk??). There's also a disk-drive like power
connector.
No clue.
Orange Micro Buffered Grappler+. This looks to be a
printer
interface/buffer and contains 64K DRAM, EPROM, Microcontroller, TTL
glue, and has a 26 pin header (to the printer?)
A very nice buffered parallel printer interface. Made life MUCH nicer
when you went to print a long multiple page document and didn't have to
wait for the print to end before you could use your computer again.
Apple Synch Printer Interface Card. I think this is
the Silentype interface.
Probably.
Apple PC Link Interface. Contains an EPROM, M58725,
TTL glue and
buffers. Also a 20 pin header.
Sweet. Does what it says, let's you link an Apple to a PC. Who is the
manufacturer on this? The only card of this type I know of was the PC
Transporter by Applied Engineering (still looking for one of those BTW :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10:36 a.m.
comments inline.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
My guess is that this is a serial
interface intended for RS423 or RS422 use,
i.e. longer distances. It's possible the 2716 was intended to support some
customed protocol, but the 6850 is essentially a UART, (no synchronous
capability) and somewhat rate limited. The 3486/87 are differential drivers for
RS422/423. One wouldn't have used the diff drivers unless one needed to have
the signal travel some considerable distance.
I'd guess distance is the motivation for using the diff drivers together with
the 6850, since the ACIA is rate-limited.
Memsoft TC2E0260. This board looks hand-soldered,
and some components are
missing. It's got a 6850 (ACIA), MC3486, MC3487 (Buffers), and TTL glue
on it. And space for a 2716 EPROM.
Advanced Text Systems P.001. Contains a 6520 (PIA), 2 off 7416 (buffers).
There's a DB25 connector on the end of a short length of ribbon cable.
No clue...I have hundreds of Apple ][ boards and have never heard of
these (at least according to current memory).
Mountain Computers ROMwriter. Clearly an EPROM
programmer, with a 24 pin
ZIF socket. I found 2 of these boards.
Prog RWP. Another EPROM Programmer, this one has a 28 pin ZIF socket.
Also an 8255 (Parallel chip), EPROM, PSU components (to get the Vpp line,
I guess).
I've got a couple EPROM programmer boards, but I don't know if I have
either of these. I know with one of them I got the software.
ICE Apple Cold Boot Adapter. Contains 6116 RAM,
EPROM, TTL glue, and a 26
pin header
ICE Multiplexor (sic) Host Adapter. 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL, 20 pin header
Interesting. Again, never heard of them. They sound like some sort of
terminal server system, maybe allowing an Apple to be shared? Naw, that's
silly.
Ronan Corp. I can't find a number on this
board, and the name is
almost unreadeable. This is not an Apple ][ card, but it was with the
above 2 boards and may have something to do with them. It contains a
Z80, EPROM, 1K RAM (2*2114), SCX6225 (ASIC/gate array? It's in a PLCC
package). There's a 26 pin header (host?) and a 34 pin + 2*20 pin
headers (ST506 hard disk??). There's also a disk-drive like power
connector.
No clue.
Orange Micro Buffered Grappler+. This looks to be
a printer
interface/buffer and contains 64K DRAM, EPROM, Microcontroller, TTL
glue, and has a 26 pin header (to the printer?)
A very nice buffered parallel printer interface. Made life MUCH nicer
when you went to print a long multiple page document and didn't have to
wait for the print to end before you could use your computer again.
Apple Synch Printer Interface Card. I think this
is the Silentype interface.
Probably.
Apple PC Link Interface. Contains an EPROM,
M58725, TTL glue and
buffers. Also a 20 pin header.
Sweet. Does what it says, let's you link an Apple to a PC. Who is the
manufacturer on this? The only card of this type I know of was the PC
Transporter by Applied Engineering (still looking for one of those BTW :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
24 Jul
24 Jul
9:26 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1140 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010724/164575ce/at…
12:52 p.m.
Having looked a MOT databook for communication devices, (1993) but I do see they
have an output enable. The 3487's have got enables on the transmitters, but in
pairs, i.e. you enable two outputs at a time. I'm not sure that these are
suitable for multidrop applications, though there are similar devices that are.
I'm not convinced that there's a "disconnected" state that would work to
allow
more than one transmitter on a pair. The line is intended to be passively
terminated, since the signal is differential. What I remember as odd was that
back in the late '70's when I first encountered these, specifically in the
context of data line drivers on SMD's and hard disks in general, the AMD pairs
(26LS31/32) were terminated with a 100-ohm resistor between the pair, while the
MOT parts were terminated with a pair of 51-ohm resistors to ground. Both of
them have essentially the same common mode tolerance and they both work
essentially the same.
ISTR 75176 was designed to RS-485 spec's, which allows for multi-drop use. I
don't know the low-level details, but there's a whole range of RS-485 devices
which will work in RS422/432, but the RS-422 devices won't work in RS-485
environments.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
> > On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
> >
> > > Memsoft TC2E0260. This board looks hand-soldered, and some components
are
> > > missing. It's got a 6850 (ACIA),
MC3486, MC3487 (Buffers), and TTL glue
> > > on it. And space for a 2716 EPROM.
> >
> My guess is that this is a serial interface intended for RS423 or RS422 use,
> i.e. longer distances. It's possible the 2716 was intended to support some
> customed protocol, but the 6850 is essentially a UART, (no synchronous
> capability) and somewhat rate limited. The 3486/87 are differential drivers
for
> RS422/423. One wouldn't have used the diff
drivers unless one needed to
have
the signal
travel some considerable distance.
Do these buffers support any kind of multi-drop capability? Could this be
a low-end custom network interface.
I know that the Gemini (UK Z80 machine, related to the Nascom) had a
network interface that was little more than an AY-5-1013 UART and a 75176
transceiver.
The number on the 40 pin UART chip had been scraped off, but
it took about 10 seconds to work out what it really was. Perhaps
something similar existed for the Apple.
-tony
1 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1585 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010724/faae52fc/at…
2:14 p.m.
inline comments below.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
I made that assumption once, and was immediately informed that one should use
the RS485-compatible drivers, back in the "old" days. The guy who jumped me
was
the app's engineer from MOT, and he was pretty young, but he was only spouting
the party line. I'm not sure that it makes any difference, but one does wonder
why the Fairchild/T.I. folks built all those RS-485-targeted devices if these
would work as well. It was never an issue for me, since I used them internally
between subsystems, but I always liked the 2-resistors on either side of ground
better than the single 100-ohm resistor as shown with the AMD driver/receiver
pair. The hi-z state certainly looks like it should work for multidrop use.
>
> Having looked a MOT databook for communication devices, (1993) but I do see
they
> have an output enable. The 3487's have got
enables on the transmitters, but
in
> pairs, i.e. you enable two outputs at a time.
I'm not sure that these are
> suitable for multidrop applications, though there are similar devices that
are.
I've found the TI datasheet for these chips. It claims they're direct
replacements for the Motorola parts, so I assume it's close enough
> I'm not convinced that there's a "disconnected" state that would
work to
allow
more than one
transmitter on a pair. The line is intended to be passively
When the OE line is low, then both outputs of each transmitter in the
pair are high impedance (disconnected, etc). So you can have multiple
transmitters driving the same pair of lines, if you ensure only one is on
at a time.
My guess is that on this card, not all the sections of the 3487 are used,
so the fact that one enable line controls 2 transmitter sections is not
going to matter too much.
The data sheet gives a value for the short-circuit current. It also says
that only 1 transmitter should be shorted at a time, and not for more
than 1s. In a mulitdrop network type application, a collision would be
detected in a lot less than 1s (we hope!), so my guess is that it would
be OK to use the 3487 in this way. Not a good design, but a design that
would work (typical of a lot of Apple and IBM PC plug-in cards, actually...)
When I've got some time (too many other projects...) I'll see how the
3486/7 are used on this card.
Until you learn what the target application was, you'll like be left in the
dark. While one can figure out what a board might do, until one gets a picture
of what the mfg intended, it remains a mystery why things were done as they
were.
-tony
25 Jul
25 Jul
12:12 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 3358 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010725/87a48a5e/at…
2:37 p.m.
One item you mention certainly supports the notion that this board was used in a
multi-drop scheme of some sort, and that's that the termination resistors were
not populated. Only one station at each end of a transmission line should carry
the termination resistors, hence, it's likely they'd be external to the board.
I'm puzzled at the use of the 6850, however, since it's only async-capable. So
far, however, and maybe until you find out quite a bit more about this setup,
it's anybody's guess.
Since this setup is async, why would you believe that it transmits clock? I
guess it's conceivable that a master might provide a global clock, but, since
the data format is async, I don't see any benefit.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
[MC3487 driver]
> > > I'm not convinced that there's a "disconnected" state
that would work to
> allow
> > > more than one transmitter on a pair. The line is intended to be
passively
> >
> > When the OE line is low, then both outputs of each transmitter in the
> > pair are high impedance (disconnected, etc). So you can have multiple
> > transmitters driving the same pair of lines, if you ensure only one is on
> > at a time.
> >
> I made that assumption once, and was immediately informed that one should
use
> the RS485-compatible drivers, back in the
"old" days. The guy who jumped me
was
> the app's engineer from MOT, and he was
pretty young, but he was only
spouting
> the party line. I'm not sure that it makes
any difference, but one does
wonder
My guess (without trying the chip) is that the 'disconnected'
(high-impedance) mode does work as described. But that you should only
use multiple drivers if you are sure there is no chance of contention (2
drivers enabled at once). The RS485 devices should allow for contention
without damage.
I would believe as well that you'd probably get away with short periods
of contention using most RS422 drivers. It's not a good design to do
that, but then a lot of things aren't well designed.
> > The data sheet gives a value for the short-circuit current. It also says
> > that only 1 transmitter should be shorted at a time, and not for more
> > than 1s. In a mulitdrop network type application, a collision would be
> > detected in a lot less than 1s (we hope!), so my guess is that it would
> > be OK to use the 3487 in this way. Not a good design, but a design that
> > would work (typical of a lot of Apple and IBM PC plug-in cards,
actually...)
> >
> > When I've got some time (too many other projects...) I'll see how the
> > 3486/7 are used on this card.
> >
> Until you learn what the target application was, you'll like be left in the
> dark. While one can figure out what a board might do, until one gets a
picture
of what the
mfg intended, it remains a mystery why things were done as they
were.
I had a quick look last night, and things are a little clearer. It
appears that 2 drivers and 2 receivers are used. The outputs of one
driver are connected to the inputs of a receiver (and ditto for the other
pair). There is space on the PCB for termination resistors (which are not
fitted), including a multi-turn preset between the lines of each
differential pair. The termination components are missing (never
soldered) on my board, so I have no idea what the values are.
There are 6 numbered solder pads at the front edge of the card. 2 are
obviously grounded, the other 4 are the 2 differential pairs. I would
assume these carried a cable to some external connector.
My guess is that one differentinal pair is the TxD and RxD lines of the
6850. The other might be clock. I didn't have any data sheets to hand, so
I can't be sure about this yet. And I've not looked at the enable inputs
to the 3487 driver (the 3486 receiver seems to be enabled all the time,
which makes sense). I can't even remember if the 2 drivers used would be
enabled together or not (i.e. do they share a common enable pin).
I need to do some more checking, obviously, but it's looking increasingly
likely that this card does interface to some form of multi-drop serial bus.
-tony
23 Jul
23 Jul
11:19 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 2545 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010723/4b8bf057/at…
12:31 p.m.
On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Too bad it doesn't have the EPROM so that you could pop it into one of
your Apples and peek at it's ROM code.
You might try posting a query about in on comp.sys.apple2 and see if
anyone bites.
It's possible. Perhaps it's a TTY en/decoder to allow deaf persons to use
their Apple as a teletype?
There were systems that allowed many computers to be connected to one so
that a teacher could do a lesson on the main computer while the students
watched along on the slaves. Something like that.
What does it use on the PC side? It clearly is some kind of TTL level
interface. Do I need a special PC card taht I've not got (or at least not
found yet?)
Hmmm, good question. Now that the drugs from the visit to the dentist
have worn off, the PC Transporter allowed you to hook PC drives to an
Apple ][ and read/write PC disks. It didn't actually have a connection to
the PC itself.
I have a box made by Rana that allows an Apple ][ to run PC programs.
The box presumably has a separate computer with an 8088 CPU and two
double-density disk drives. Maybe this is the interface card for such a
box? I am headed off to my storage place to pay the monthly dues, so I'll
take a few moments to check it out and see what the interface card is like
for that.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Sellam, you were my best hope for identifying these
boards. If you've
not seen them, I guess nobody will know them :-)
:)
> Memsoft
TC2E0260. This board looks hand-soldered, and some components are
> missing. It's got a 6850 (ACIA), MC3486, MC3487 (Buffers), and TTL glue
> on it. And space for a 2716 EPROM.
If I had to guess, I'd think this one was possibly some kind of 'network'
interface. A slow-speed network using asynchronous data transmission.
Does that ring any bells with anyone? > Advanced
Text Systems P.001. Contains a 6520 (PIA), 2 off 7416 (buffers).
> There's a DB25 connector on the end of a short length of ribbon cable.
From the name (Advanced _Text_ Systems), I
wondered if this was the
interface for a daisywheel printer or something similar?
I've got a
couple EPROM programmer boards, but I don't know if I have
either of these. I know with one of them I got the software.
My guess is that these boards are to allow several Apples to share
something else. Maybe a hard disk. ICE Apple Cold Boot Adapter. Contains 6116 RAM,
EPROM, TTL glue, and a 26
pin header
ICE Multiplexor (sic) Host Adapter. 6116 RAM, EPROM, TTL, 20 pin header
Interesting. Again, never heard of them. They sound like some sort of
terminal server system, maybe allowing an Apple to be shared? Naw, that's
silly. I wonder if the 'Cold Boot Adapter' links to
that KONAN card and adds
a hard disk to the Apple. The Cold Boot part meaning the Apple can
boot from the hard disk without needed a boot floppy. I am probably
wildly off, though
I was thinking something similar actually.
Apple PC Link Interface. Contains an EPROM, M58725,
TTL glue and
buffers. Also a 20 pin header.
Sweet. Does what it says, let's you link an Apple to a PC. Who is the
1:58 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 3621 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010723/778ccc23/at…
4:52 p.m.
On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:58:49 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote:
#> > I wonder if the 'Cold Boot Adapter' links to that KONAN card and
adds
#> > a hard disk to the Apple. The Cold Boot part meaning the Apple can
#> > boot from the hard disk without needed a boot floppy. I am
probably
#> > wildly off, though
#>
#> I was thinking something similar actually.
#
#In which case I should start looking at the EPROMs on these boards).
This seems unlikely. Apple IIs never needed a boot floppy, they just
booted from the first recognizable disk controller, starting at slot 7
and working down. In the absence of a recognizable controller, they
went into Basic. If you wanted to change the boot drive, you just
changed the order of the cards. It was also possible to select a boot
drive with a selector program, or even by issuing a command from Basic.
But anything is possible, I suppose.
Louis
4:32 p.m.
On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Louis Schulman wrote:
#> > I wonder if the 'Cold Boot Adapter'
links to that KONAN card and
adds
#> > a hard disk to the Apple. The Cold Boot part meaning the Apple can
#> > boot from the hard disk without needed a boot floppy. I am
probably
#> > wildly off, though
#>
#> I was thinking something similar actually.
#
#In which case I should start looking at the EPROMs on these boards).
This seems unlikely. Apple IIs never needed a boot floppy, they just
booted from the first recognizable disk controller, starting at slot 7
and working down. In the absence of a recognizable controller, they
went into Basic. If you wanted to change the boot drive, you just
changed the order of the cards. It was also possible to select a boot
drive with a selector program, or even by issuing a command from Basic.
But anything is possible, I suppose.
It's possible there were hard drives that required a boot disk, rather
than booting off the drive itself. I've seen dumber things :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
24 Jul
24 Jul
9:37 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1572 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010724/775b0eea/at…
1 p.m.
It was, IIRC, necessary to have a version of the RWTS (read/write track/sector)
routines for any block I/O device, and that is probably part of what the ROM
provided. I have a homebrew system that was certainly equipped with an RWTS
equivalent so that it could read APEX-formatted 8" diskettes (APEX being a
locally generated OS for the APPLE, that used 8" diskettes via the Sorrento
Valley Associates 1771-based controller on an APPLE) by means of my hand-wired
interface and an SMS FT400 controller with 2 8" drives. It was even MFM
capable, which the Apple-based SVA adapter was not, though I read that SVA was
planning to release a DD version.
If you could patch the resident OS to determine which controller was needed and
to select the appropriate RWTS version, (think of this as BIOS primitives) then
return the appropriate values when it was done, it would happily work with the
Apple. While WOZ's FDC and FDD were designed to save APPLE lots of dough, they
didn't give away much, and they didnt' cause lots of software problems. The guy
did some fine work.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Apple ][ boards -- what have I found?
On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:58:49 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote:
#> > I wonder if the 'Cold Boot Adapter' links to that KONAN card and
adds
#> > a hard disk to the Apple. The Cold Boot part meaning the Apple can
#> > boot from the hard disk without needed a boot floppy. I am
probably
#> > wildly off, though
#>
#> I was thinking something similar actually.
#
#In which case I should start looking at the EPROMs on these boards).
This seems unlikely. Apple IIs never needed a boot floppy, they just
booted from the first recognizable disk controller, starting at slot 7
For an Apple to boot from a disk controller (any disk controller), there
has to be code in ROM on the disk controller that tells the Apple's CPU
how to read the boot sector, etc. That's what one of the PROMs on the
Disk II card is. After all, you can't expect the Apple monitor ROM to
understnad every disk controller that ever could exist.
If you have a disk controller _without_ such a ROM, then you'd need a
program (presumably loaded from a disk via a normal Disk II controller)
to use it. I've seen a 1771-based card (to read 8" CP/M floppies) that
did this. The Apple couldn't boot from it, but you could run a program
from a normal disk to copy files between normal Apple ][ disks and the 8"
CP/M ones.
If this cold boot adapter is to do with the hard disk, then it's possible
that the ROM contains the boot code so the machine can boot from the hard
disk. I have no idea if there's a similar card without the ROM that
needs a boot floppy.
-tony
23 Jul
23 Jul
5:06 p.m.
Hmmm, good
question. Now that the drugs from the visit to the dentist
have worn off, the PC Transporter allowed you to hook PC drives to an
Apple ][ and read/write PC disks. It didn't actually have a connection to
the PC itself.
I thought it might be something like that, but there's no
obvious disk
controller chip on the board. Of course a 20 pin header could conceivably
link to an Apple Disk ][, but I doubt it.
24 Jul
24 Jul
10:51 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 887 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010724/dd36863c/at…
9:43 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 08:51:17PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
How is this different from the BBC Master 512K (or whatever the
PC-compatible second processor was)? Did the Torch Graduate use the Tube?
Just in case anyone doesn't know... The normal system bus on the BBC runs at
1 MHz which is only half the CPU speed. The Tube runs at 2 MHz and is
designed to be connected (through a semi-custom Acorn chip, some cables, and
a matching chip) to one of a number of "second processor" units.
It's basically the arrangement Tony and the original poster describe, but
the units are bigger than a disk drive, and the BBC may do more of the work
than a typical terminal.
-- Derek
Years ago, an
associate configured a Quark for external terminal. (Quark
was a tiny 80x86 PC compatible computer like the Ampro little board or PMC
that could fit comfortably into a drive case along with a half height
drive)
We joked about using an Apple as the terminal. Then we could sell the
machine as a "drive" for Apple that would let it run PC software, since
many Apple users wouldn't know or understand that the Apple was only
acting as the terminal, and that the computer was in the drive case.
There was a thing sold in the UK called a Torch Graduate. It was an
add-on for the BBC micro that was essentially a complete PC motherboard
(8088) + a few interface chips and a BBC Micro ROM. It also had 2
built-in 5.25" drives, It ran MS-DOS (IIRC the normal PC version) The BBC
was used as the keyboard and video display only for a PC system...
25 Jul
25 Jul
12:28 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 2738 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010725/4a410695/at…
3:29 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 10:28:19PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
No, Torch rarely used the Tube interface. Probably because the Tube ULAs
were a custom Acorn part and were not that easy to obtain in quantity,
unless you were Acorn :-)
Both of the Torch Coprocessors that I've seen use the 1MHz bus. The Z80
one needs a ROM installed in one of the BBC's sideways ROM sockets. The
Graduate (8088) does not. It uses a trick where if the Beeb detects NMI
shortlry after a reset, it runs code in a ROM connected to the 1MHz bus
(this is not documented in any Acorn manual that I've seen, but it is
intentional, and works on all Beebs I've ever seen). Of course you can
only map 256 bytes of the ROM in at a time (the 1MHz bus has 8 address
lines, A0-A7 and 2 page select lines, page FCxx and page FDxx, only one
page is used for this ROM). After a few shenanigans mapping in different
parts of the ROM and copying code into the BBC RAM, the machine is booted.
I remember reading about this trick the last time the subject of the Torch
came up.
Oops, sorry. I knew there were two FIFOs but I didn't realize they were on
one chip.
What exactly are the MOS routines designed to offer the second processor? I
know they can copy software over the Tube and do some relocation (and that
the relocation was enhanced in the Master). But what are the
functions/memory locations/etc. avaialble to each side? And how does the
whole thing get booted (and then stay running)?
There was a thing sold in the UK called a Torch
Graduate. It was an
add-on for the BBC micro that was essentially a complete PC motherboard
(8088) + a few interface chips and a BBC Micro ROM. It also had 2
built-in 5.25" drives, It ran MS-DOS (IIRC the normal PC version) The BBC
was used as the keyboard and video display only for a PC system...
How is this different from the BBC Master 512K (or whatever the
PC-compatible second processor was)? Did the Torch Graduate use the Tube? Just in case
anyone doesn't know... The normal system bus on the BBC runs at
1 MHz which is only half the CPU speed. The Tube runs at 2 MHz and is
designed to be connected (through a semi-custom Acorn chip, some cables, and
a matching chip) to one of a number of "second processor" units.
No, you only need 1 Tube ULA. There is no ULA associated with the Tube
inside the Beeb -- it's just TTL buffers, address decoders, etc. The ULA
goes in the second processor unit, and is basically a pair of FIFOs to
transfer data between the BBC micro and the other processor and back again. For the beneift of non-UK classiccmpers, the name
'Tube' was chosen both
because it was a 'tube' through which data could be passed to the copro
and back, but also because the name 'tube' is a common slang name for the
London Underground (Subway), which is, of course, an alternative to the
bus :-)
Also, ULA = Uncommitted Logic Array, a semi-custom PLA-like thing. Was
it made by Ferranti? Acorn used a few different ULAs and so did some other
vendors. I think Sinclair was one.
And MOS = Machine OS = the ROM routines in the BBC, including the abstract
filesystem interface but not any filesystems (which could be added or
removed as desired) and an astonishing number of places for the user to
extend the code.
-- Derek
8379
days inactive
8382
days old
35 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dpeschel＠eskimo.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
ernestls＠home.com -
fernande＠internet1.net -
foo＠siconic.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
louiss＠gate.net -
marvin＠rain.org -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net