At 06:43 PM 5/12/98 PDT, you wrote: Well, I'm shooting from the hip here, but I do have some experience in this area. The idea of "computer labs" comes from IMO two things: 1) The idea of teaching "computers" as a separate subject and 2) the inability for schools to afford computers for every classroom. Looking at these in turn, "computers" as a subject in itself *may* have been a valid concept *at one time* (i.e., with some of the machines we deal with) but now is no longer an issue. Kids today have very little problem with the concepts involved in running a program (it's the same as sticking in a nintendo cartridge) or using a mouse (aka joystick) etc. Certainly, programming is a separate issue, but not everyone needs to learn C or Java or even Basic, just as not everyone needs to learn how to rebuild a transmission or tune a piano. As for schools not being able to afford computers, well heck, they can't even afford pencils and paper. I kid you not. Every fall, I get woken up at 7am to be first in line at Target when the Crayons/folders/pencil boxes/pencils/scissors/etc. go on sale (every week, it seems -- <groan>) so that my girlfriend can buy the supplies she wants for her classroom on sale *with her own money*. So, yes, most schools can't afford computers, in general, let alone enough for each classroom. So, what to do? Should they even bother? I think, based on Rachel's experiences, that the answer is a resounding *YES*, teachers should scrounge and steal and swindle as many computers as they can for their schools/classrooms. But not to teach "computers". They should be a tool, just like any other, to teach reading, math, science, comprehension, etc. And so I'll go against the grain and say it's more important in the lower grades (K-3 or so) to have computers available than in the upper grades. Upper grades, junior and high school especially, can do just as well with older machines as they can with the newer ones. PC-Write under DOS is an excellent solution for writing term papers or book reports, and will teach the concepts of word processing just as well as the latest version of MSWord. Qbasic, Cobol, and C/C++ for DOS are all just as good as their GUI counterparts for learning how to write a program; Once you understand the idea, switching to another language is a piece of cake. I write all my web pages in PC-Write (and I'm damn proud of some of them) and often use Arachne (DOS browser) to check them. Non-readers, however, can make better use of newer technology. Programs like the Playroom, Millie's Math House, and such really get the kids interested and having a good time; they don't realize (or care) that they're actually learning to read or count or what-have-you. This is the real value of computers in education. Mind you, older computers can be used here too, (the original version of the Playroom ran fine on a Mac Plus), but if you've got an old XT and a 486, give the upper grades the XT and the wee ones the 486. As to the craze for pushing computer literacy at the expense of general literacy, I think that older folks (30+) look at technology and how it was new to them, and how it is becoming so pervasive in our society, and they're scared. Scared that their kids will be as unprepared as they were. (What they don't understand, of course, is that that very pervasiveness will make kids take the technology in stride: My niece could work the VCR (play, ffwd, rwd, eject) at 1.5years; she's a wiz on the computer) Add to that the media and the politicians who love to play on the public's fears and work them into a frenzy to serve their own purposes and the corporate world who just want to sell more *stuff*... Computers have affected education, both for good and bad (like most anything.) They allow teachers to come up with fun worksheets that teach, quickly and easily; they can help kids that couldn't learn to read finally do it; they allow kids to work independantly at their own speed, allowing the teacher to work with the kids that need the most help. But, they also cause distractions, can be abused as babysitters by lesser teachers, and can displace funding and space for other, more needed supplies and equipment. Overall, the benefits of computers in the schools (as elsewhere, IMO) *FAR* outweigh the problems. Now the problem with older computers in the classrooms is not that they're not useful, it's that they're not adequately supported for the majority of non-computer-literate teachers. (Teachers know how to teach; they don't know how to do a low-level format on a CP/M hard drive.) So, all you folks on this list, who know what you're doing, call up your local schools and see if they have any [older] computers that they need help putting to use. Apple //e's are fine for teaching BASIC programming and Word processing, and I know there are educational programs available for the younger kids, too. (Right Sam?) That XT should be repairable, and would make a great text-editing station or could be put to use in math classes running Lotus 1-2-3 or Excel. But, we've got a teacher who can't put them to use, but they don't have the skills/knowledge to do so. So, are there any collectors in/around Humble TX that can help out? P.S., I have my girlfriend working on a list of all the EduSoftware she has and what it's good at (and how good it is) to be put on a web page, so that someone who gets a computer for their classroom can see what software works and will run. (All her computers are Mac IIci or less (68030 or lower) (though we've got one IIci with an '040 board in it to go in, as soon as I get a chance to clean up the hard drive and such.)) Well, I've only got about a 1000 books, and about 100 computers, but there's a lot more in the house (my folks had a whole wall of bookshelves put in when they bought the house). I too would say that if you can't read/write (communicate)/count, a computer's not going to do you much good in the long run -- it can't do that for you. (In fact, it will get you to do more of the above.) Anyway, sorry for the ultra-long rant... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/