10 Jun
2000
10 Jun
'00
8:39 a.m.
R.D. Davis wrote:
I still don't see what's wrong with thoroughly
examining something
before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect
sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some
random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a
bad idea when shopping for a car either.
Sellam Ismail replied:
< R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer
electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and
meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being
forcibly escorted out of the store. >
Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to
perform a component-level test on any equipment I had for sale, first I'd
assume they were joking, and laugh. If they persisted, I'd have to ask them
to leave. If someone gets zapped in my store I'd be liable. Additionally,
store personnel don't have the time to watch over such an operation to make
sure that the "tester" doesn't damage or steal something.
You might be able to get away with this at a hamfest, though.
Glen
0/0
10 Jun
10 Jun
11:04 a.m.
New subject: TI Professional Computer and "Smart Shopping"
I'll have to add my voice to the geek chorus here ;-) Buying random
hardware out of a mountain of spares at a hamfest is one thing, but getting
a used S-100 FOOBAR at the local Red, White, and Blue is another. No store
owner with any notion of what liability means is going to let some random
come in and start attaching probes to a motherboard even if the store owner
should happen to understand the difference between AC, DC, and Metallica
;-), let alone to a power supply or monitor.
I've definitely bought used systems over the years that I've said "I should
have looked" when I got them home and found blown caps, melted wires,
skunked power supplies, and even dead rodents inside. Once I get them
home, I always open them up before powering them on. You hopefully only
experience the "OhNo" second once in your collecting career (the first
second after you turn something on, it smokes, and you think "Oh no.") My
general philosophy for such things is "parts is parts." I've frequently
bought pieces of systems or docs and software for systems I didn't even own
- eventually, when I find another one or the rest of one, I'll be that much
closer to a working system.
It'd be nice to be able to always know what you're buying. When I bought my
wife our first Jaguar (er, the car, not the game system), how was I to know
that one of the gas tanks was rusty and they were both welded inside the
body? I wasn't happy then, but now it seems funny. Much like buying our
first house - the owners had all of these hardcore born-again signs all
through the house. Would they lie about things? Absolutely. Was I irritated
then? Definitely. Do I still care now? Definitely not.
As I read back over this, maybe I'm just advertising the fact that I'm not
a smart shopper. Having confessed, does anyone have any 1980s vintage
workstations they're looking to get rid of? I would still give my eyeteeth
for a WCW or Hitec workstation, and could always use more NBI U!s or ISIs.
Any condition is OK (and I think you see that I mean that!). I'll be glad
to pay shipping from almost anywhere.
Bill
t 01:39 PM 6/10/00 -0400, Glenatacme(a)aol.com wrote:
R.D. Davis wrote:
I still don't see what's wrong with
thoroughly examining something
before purchasing it, whether it's used, or new. It makes perfect
sense to take a tool kit into a store where one is shopping for some
random piece of electrical or electronic equipment... might not be a
bad idea when shopping for a car either.
Sellam Ismail replied:
< R.D. Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer
electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and
meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being
forcibly escorted out of the store. >
Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to
perform a component-level test on any equipment I had for sale, first I'd
assume they were joking, and laugh. If they persisted, I'd have to ask them
to leave. If someone gets zapped in my store I'd be liable. Additionally,
store personnel don't have the time to watch over such an operation to make
sure that the "tester" doesn't damage or steal something.
You might be able to get away with this at a hamfest, though.
Glen
0/0 
12 Jun
12 Jun
10:05 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 2222 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/f4ac2817/at…
11:34 a.m.
< R.D.
Let's go shopping! Call me the next time you walk into a consumer
electronics store or a new car lot, and please bring your toolbox and
meter along. I'll bring a camera so I can snap shots of you being
forcibly escorted out of the store. >
Sellam is right on, here. If someone came into my store and wanted to
As I pointed out in my reply to that message, I have, indeed, dismantled
consumer electronics devices before buying them (with full permission of
the shop).
12:45 p.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1881 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000612/80845350/at…
6:14 p.m.
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
As I pointed out in my reply to that message, I have,
indeed, dismantled
consumer electronics devices before buying them (with full permission of
the shop).
If the average consumer these days was reasonably intelligent, stores
would be forced to have models on display that were open, or
disassembled, so that one could see the insides, etc.
I recall when stores typically had things like washing machine models
on display with cases that were partially clear so that one could see
the insides. At one Radio Shack, the cover was removed from a tuner
that was on display. It wasn't at all unusual to see demo models on
display in stores that were either partially disassembled or had
see-through panels in them. I also recall seeing ads in magazines
that showed the insides of things, in rather good detail, from
consumer appliances like vacuum cleaners to hi-fi equipment, and had
lines pointing to certain components, etc.
These days, I guess the safest solution is to buy something,
disassemble it thoroughly at home, then put it back together carefully
and return it if you don't like what you discovered. If you had to
break any "warranty void if opened" seals, and someone at the store
notices this, just use that as the excuse for returning it, that
someone (you don't have to say it was you!) tampered with it, and you
don't want to risk buying another one from that store.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
11:48 p.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread, many
of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item basically AS IT
SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes into either a
"working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing, and so changes
the
price. If the price is "fixed" and you "can" test, then you are wise
to go
ahead and test it.
Bit of advice, NEVER plug something in before making at least some check
for loose parts inside.
I do the same thing right back to them though, make an offer on a pallet as
it sits, then if they decide they want to peek in each box to make sure I
don't get a goodie, I tell them fine, but I am looking too, and my offer
may drop significantly, or I may only want a few of the systems. Another
thing I point out all the time is that I "would have offered a lot more"
but somebody damaged the case parts opening up the units. Most of the time
I am better off buying items as "assumed" non working. OTOH I don't think I
will EVER buy another hard drive "AS-IS" unless I am REAL sure it isn't
tested bad goods. Any fairly dollar dense item like a hard drive being
offered as-is, should be assumed "tested bad".
That said, I keep a blade/phillips two ended screwdriver in my shirt
pocket, ALL THE TIME (wife doesn't care for it a bit), and regularly take a
"kit" with me in a double shoe box sized plastic tub (two pairs of gloves,
leather and rubber, wet wipes, full set of screwdrivers including a BIG
one, notebook, pen, long nose pliers, a couple of those jackknife type sets
of Torx and allen keys, and three or four nut drivers in sizes too small
for anything else. That is not so much my inspection kit (pocket
screwdriver does that job) as my field tear it apart kit, dumpster divers
tools also included are a couple cables (nothing hooks things like a RJ11
or DB9 when fishing).
11:14 p.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
Mike Ford wrote:
Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread,
many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item
basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes
into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing,
and
so changes the price.
That'd be Schrodinger's Store?
13 Jun
13 Jun
1:53 a.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
Mike Ford wrote:
So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all
transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the
weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat
pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss,
who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work
that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a
pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay
by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store.
Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread,
many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item
basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes
into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing,
and
so changes the price.
That'd be Schrodinger's Store? 
5:38 a.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
Mike Ford wrote:
This can work both ways too though, I was at one establishment (unnamed)
trying to get a working Apple II floppy drive, so I offered to bring in my own
apple and test each of their drives, provided I could buy one of the working
ones at the "As is" price!
Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now
Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors
anyway)
Mike Ford
wrote:
So far it is just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all
transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the
weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat
pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss,
who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work
that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a
pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay
by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store.
Since I didn't see it mentioned in this "look before you buy" thread,
many of the vendors I deal with will quote a price on an item
basically AS IT SITS. If I choose to test the device, it now changes
into either a "working" or "nonworking" thing from a AS-IS thing,
and
so changes the price.
That'd be Schrodinger's Store?
8:01 a.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
So far it is
just about any place where the "boss" directly handles all
transactions. Most of the time you can use your Jedi mind powers on the
weak minded employees who could give a rats anyway, even if they bleat
pitifully about you can't do that while you go ahead and do it. The boss,
who is saavy to the change in value from untested to tested, doesn't work
that way. The classic drive me nuts variety is when I make a deal on a
pallet, work two hours stripping parts, then have the owner want me to pay
by the part like they were in some display case at a retail store.
This can work both ways too though, I was at one establishment (unnamed)
trying to get a working Apple II floppy drive, so I offered to bring in my own
apple and test each of their drives, provided I could buy one of the working
ones at the "As is" price!
Of all the drives I could find in the store, only 3 worked. but now
Mr.StoreGuy has a pile of "Tested-BAD" drives! (Well good for steppermotors
anyway) 
8:18 a.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
At 09:01 13-06-2000 -0800, Mike Ford wrote:
<schlorp>
Ah, but the store owner now had one more thing in the
deal, an education,
don't let anybody test your stuff at a fixed price. Its the kind of mistake
I don't know that it was a mistake, per se. Got a little story I'd like to
share along the same lines.
Back about 1994, a year or so after my mate and I first moved to
Washington, I was in serious BASSW (Bay Area Surplus Store Withdrawal). To
make matters worse, it was late fall, season-wise, and I was having serious
trouble adapting to WA state's lower sunny-day count (translation: I was
depressed and grouchy).
So, I grabbed up the phone book and went digging. A new entry came to
light: Specifically, the PC-FIXX Clearance Center, purveyor of Used Parts
and Other Goodies. I already knew about PC-FIXX by reputation -- they
specialized in repair and upgrade of PCs and, in some rare cases, "other"
systems.
I went up and had a look. They had a nice as-is alley, though most of the
prices were inflated, but I still found my first EISA SCSI adapter for $5.
The variety of stuff they had was pretty amazing, and I could tell that
they were still in their "we-just-opened" chaos phase.
The place went downhill from there, sadly. Prices went up, and selection
went down. Then, about a year later, a miracle hit. The entire used-parts
division was sold to two fellows, Mark Dabek and Steve Hess, who promptly
renamed it RE-PC and rejuvenated the entire store.
I continued to visit, and I kept asking about (and sometimes even finding)
exotic hardware that practically no one else wanted -- EISA stuff, Sun
systems, etc. My visits got to be so regular that not only did the owners
and staff get to know me, and I them, but they started drawing on my
knowledge and skills.
Finally, when they started getting big loads of retired Sun stuff from a
local service place, they became overwhelmed because of a lack of
experience with SCSI hardware. I stepped in with an offer of help (I was
well set up to test SCSI stuff at the time) which was gratefully and
quickly accepted.
I ended up testing over 100 drives over time, disk and tape alike. To this
day, I have friends at both stores (Seattle and Tukwila), and I can say
with confidence that I've known the owners for years.
And what did I get out of all this? Excellent deals on some of those same
drives, good friends, an OK to do a detailed inspection on anything I'm
thinking of buying, good contacts in the other computer surplus areas
(minis and such), and even a job when I most needed it after a layoff (yes,
I actually worked for them for about five months).
And all that just because I chose, at one depressed moment, not to give up
on a place that was going downhill at the time.
I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid to reach out, even if
you're confronted with an apparently insurmountable barrier (as I once
thought I was).
So it can be with surplus dealers. Ask them about something you're hunting
for. Offer to help with a problem they might be having. Try to build up a
good working relationship, at least, if not outright friendship. You never
know where it will lead, and the risk is minimal.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
14 Jun
14 Jun
12:07 a.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid
to reach out,
even if
you're confronted with an apparently insurmountable barrier (as I once
thought I was).
So it can be with surplus dealers. Ask them about something you're
hunting
for. Offer to help with a problem they might be having. Try to build up a
good working relationship, at least, if not outright friendship. You never
know where it will lead, and the risk is minimal.
The idea is to have some fun, and realistically every place and every owner
will be different, with the formation of a "good" relationship based on
different kinds of acts. Never trying to cheat them, being helpfull,
respectfull, and actually putting some cash in their hands from time to
time is common to about all of them. I spent all day at a place today
setting up a test system for monitors, and then testing monitors (between
digging in every pile I could reach), and generally I get very good
treatment from them.
This is a bit different from buying stuff for yourself though, its more
like ploughing the snow off the roads.
6:02 a.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
At 01:07 14-06-2000 -0800, you wrote:
<snip>
The idea is to have some fun, and realistically every
place and every owner
will be different, with the formation of a "good" relationship based on
different kinds of acts. Never trying to cheat them, being helpfull,
respectfull, and actually putting some cash in their hands from time to
time is common to about all of them. I spent all day at a place today
<snip again>
Couldn't have said it better. I still have a good working relationship
with some of the folks at Weird Stuff, despite the physical distance, as
does a friend of mine who's local to them.
This is a bit different from buying stuff for yourself
though, its more
like ploughing the snow off the roads.
<shrug> The effort is usually worth it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
13 Jun
13 Jun
9:12 a.m.
New subject: Looking inside before you buy etc.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 2839 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/e7a24c59/at…
8:37 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1720 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000613/5413af8c/at…
8810
days inactive
8814
days old
15 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
flo＠rdel.co.uk -
Glenatacme＠aol.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
rdd＠smart.net -
rhudson＠ix.netcom.com -
vonhagen＠vonhagen.org