29 Oct
2001
29 Oct
'01
12:41 p.m.
Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever
seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else
(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU)
29 Oct
29 Oct
1:20 p.m.
I can't name a machine that did, but I know some CP/M boxes used them. So
that excludes Kaypro, ATR8000, ATR8500, SuperBrain, Morrow MDx, Osborne,
Xerox 820-II, Commodore 128, and IBM PC. All run CP/M and none use hard
sectored disks.
I do know that lots of drive controllers use the index hole of
soft-sectored disks to time the disk's rotation in order to determine
which type drive is running on it. 92/180/320/720k disks rotate at 300rpm
and 'high-density' drives like 77track 8' hd and your standard 1.44mb
floppy drives rotate at 360rpm. Some drives by other makers run at odd
speeds. Atari 8-bit drives generally run at 288rpm and this makes a
difference esp when reading copy-protected disks.
Regards,
Jeff
In <01102921415400.02413@ws1>, on 10/29/01
at 09:41 PM, Jim Donoghue <jdonogh1(a)prodigy.net> said:
Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4
disks? I've only
ever seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used
anywhere else (the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe
CPU)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
30 Oct
30 Oct
4:32 a.m.
I do know that lots of drive controllers use the index
hole of
soft-sectored disks to time the disk's rotation in order to determine
which type drive is running on it.
doubtful
although some use it for a "drive not ready" signal.
92/180/320/720k disks rotate at 300rpm
and 'high-density' drives like 77track 8' hd and your standard 1.44mb
floppy drives rotate at 360rpm.
NOPE!
8" is 360RPM
"normal" 5.25" is 300 RPM
"high density" ("1.2M") 5.25" thinks that it is an 8" and is
at 360RPM
(SOME switch speeds when doing 360K in a 1.2M, SOME (such as IBM!) rely on
a change in the data transfer rate)
3.5" 1.4M (I have NEVER seen a 1.44M format!) are also at 300RPM
Some drives by other makers run at odd
speeds. Atari 8-bit drives generally run at 288rpm and this makes a
difference esp when reading copy-protected disks.
And some, such as Weltec, operate at half of "normal" speed (180 RPM) in
order to handle "high density" with "normal density" data transfer
rates.
29 Oct
29 Oct
1:27 p.m.
I've got a Northstar Advantage that uses them...anyone know where to get
hard sector disks these days?
-Chandra
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Donoghue
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:42 PM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only
ever
seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere
else
(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU)
3:10 p.m.
Northstars, Vectors and others used them. They had a little better capacity per
diskette than did the soft-sectored variety.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Donoghue" <jdonogh1(a)prodigy.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 7:41 PM
Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4
disks? I've only ever
seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else
(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU)
3:28 p.m.
Northstar Computers used to use them for their disk systems. They were
CP/M based systems, and the one I saw was hooked to a Sol-20.
Eric
Jim Donoghue wrote:
Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4
disks? I've only ever
seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else
(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU)
4:42 p.m.
My Northstar Horizon does, 10 sector IIRC.. also the Apple II used
Hard-Sector disks (or certain disk controllers did for hte apple II)
At 09:41 PM 10/29/01 -0500, you wrote:
Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4
disks? I've only ever
seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else
(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU)
30 Oct
30 Oct
4:23 a.m.
LOTS (hundreds) of machines used hard-sectored diskettes, such as
Northstar, SOME models of Heath/Zenith (NOT ALL), Vector, Lanier, etc.
1) NO, APPLE ][ IS NOT HARD SECTORED!
Apple is COMPLETELY soft-sectored. While MOST machines that were
soft-sectored started the track with the index pulse, Apple and Commodore
ignored even the index pulse. Therefore, they would work with
soft-sectored diskettes, hard-sectored diskettes, upside down diskettes
with a write enable notch punched, etc.
2) NO, it has nothing to do with using a 6502.
10:59 a.m.
At 10:23 AM 10/30/01 -0800, you wrote:
1) NO, APPLE ][ IS NOT HARD SECTORED!
Apple is COMPLETELY soft-sectored. While MOST machines that were
soft-sectored started the track with the index pulse, Apple and Commodore
ignored even the index pulse. Therefore, they would work with
soft-sectored diskettes, hard-sectored diskettes, upside down diskettes
with a write enable notch punched, etc.
2) NO, it has nothing to do with using a 6502.
It's been a LONG time since i've used an apple II, I was just going by a
friend that always used hard-sector disks on his II.
11:59 a.m.
It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an
index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at whic point it waited for it,
then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a magnetic
track) would have no impact.
The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth
transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Reed" <geoffr(a)zipcon.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
At 10:23 AM 10/30/01 -0800, you wrote:
1) NO, APPLE ][ IS NOT HARD SECTORED!
Apple is COMPLETELY soft-sectored. While MOST machines that were
soft-sectored started the track with the index pulse, Apple and Commodore
ignored even the index pulse. Therefore, they would work with
soft-sectored diskettes, hard-sectored diskettes, upside down diskettes
with a write enable notch punched, etc.
2) NO, it has nothing to do with using a 6502.
It's been a LONG time since i've used an apple II, I was just going by a
friend that always used hard-sector disks on his II.
12:16 p.m.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
It's conceivable that the software that the
Apple][ used didn't look for an
index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at whic point it waited for
it,
then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a magnetic
track) would have no impact.
No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
EVER see the index pulse.
The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby
allowing a smooth
transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
1:18 p.m.
you said " ...
No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
EVER see the index pulse.
..."
I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to have the
holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the means to "see"
them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability to see them makes them
easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone might happily use hard
sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the point about which there seems to
have been some confusion.
and " ...
Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
..."
Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was rather
small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most of the work
was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the disk format required,
and figure out along the way which one it was.
I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system was
incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had who had
been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+, drives, and
monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I moved his database to
a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives.
I'd say he was in hog heaven. His business picked up (though I don't know that
the switch had anything to do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX,
Whiskey, and prune juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a
lot more of his wife and kids.
Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source files, I had
forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern so many
folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old SVA controller
... <sigh> It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on as well as they did,
given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ did to create the disk
subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders of magnitude less reliable than
what was offered on more conventional systems.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an
> index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point it waited
for
it,
> then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in
the index track (not a
magnetic
> > track) would have no impact.
No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
EVER see the index pulse.
> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth
> > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
>
> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
>
>
2:35 p.m.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple
diskettes all seem to
have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the
Only because that's how they were manufactured. It would be silly to
order disks without the index holes at what most likely would have been a
much higher price just because you didn't need it.
Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the
PROM they used was
rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...)
Most of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do
what the disk format required, and figure out along the way which one
it was.
The PROM only had the boot code in it (less than 256 bytes...some of the
tightest code EVER!) It was responsible for loading the first sector of
the first track into memory and then executing that code. It could be
actually be used to read any numbre of sectors from the track the head was
currently positioned over. With the addition of maybe 32 more bytes of
6502 code, you could write a head positioner routine that could move the
head around and read any sector from the disk.
I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems,
since the Apple system
was incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client
Huh?
I had who had been using an Apple][+ in his business
summarily took
his ][+, drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster
the day I moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC
and a conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog
heaven. His business picked up (though I don't know that the switch
had anything to do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX,
Whiskey, and prune juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got
to see a lot more of his wife and kids.
Sounds like user error to me. RTFM.
Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old
6502 source
files, I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was.
Huh?
No wondern so many folks switched to 8" drives.
I surely wish I could
find an old SVA controller ... <sigh> It's a real wonder
microcomputers caught on as well as they did, given the standard set
by the Apple ][. The work WOZ did to create the disk subsystem was
really ingenious, but still orders of magnitude less reliable than
what was offered on more conventional systems.
I have hundreds (>~500) Apple ][ disks that are still readable to this
day. Of my 17 or so years of hacking Apple ][s, I've only lost a handful
of disks, and that was usually due to physical errors. Once or twice I
lost a disk because random sectors were overwritten whilst hacking and the
system jumped into the middle of a DOS call, but that was rare.
Anyway, I'll just take your statement for what it is.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:47 p.m.
I'm referring to the registered prom in the disk controller when I made that
remark, since I'm not sure that the boot code had to be modified at all between
the two sector sizes, though it's possible.
It's not pilot error that causes the Apple disk subsystem to fall apart whenever
there's the slightest error, it's the "we've got your money now, so
we've got
you by the short and curly" attitude that Apple has always had with respet to
their customers' data. That design of WOZ's was clever and cheap, ... REALLY
cheap ... , but not terribly reliable. Back in the early '80's I didn't know
a
single user of the genuine Apple disk subsystem that didn't have a data loss per
hour in steady use. The guy I mentioned initially had phone-order business,
and, because his environment was not perfectly clean, he was constantly having
to reboot his Apple, since it couldn't recover from a disk read error, and this
was before he had a toll-free number. His customers didn't like the extra 10
minutes it took to get the job done. Remember, that was back when long distance
cost something and a dollar was a DOLLAR, not just the price of a candy bar.
After he was switched to the CP/M system, he went over a year without a data
loss, even though he had power outages now and again, and the risk of
contamination was just as bad for the CP/M system as for the Apple. I can't
explain it all, but as I said, he happily chucked the Apple after all the grief
he'd had. That, by the way is exactly what I plan to do with my remaining Apple
hardware once I get this current APEX software thing outta here. My recent
contact with the Apple][+, IIe, //c, etc, has convinced me that there's no point
in perpetuating the myth.
I remember how people whined about the PC's <abort, retry, fail> error message
for disk errors, yet Apple didn't even have one. It just went TILT.
Even back in those days we'd all come to expect better than that, and, by the
way, the whole problem was exxentially gone if one used 8" FDD's with the SVA
controller.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple
diskettes all seem to
have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the
Only because that's how they were manufactured. It would be silly to
order disks without the index holes at what most likely would have been a
much higher price just because you didn't need it.
Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since
the PROM they used was
rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...)
Most of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do
what the disk format required, and figure out along the way which one
it was.
The PROM only had the boot code in it (less than 256 bytes...some of the
tightest code EVER!) It was responsible for loading the first sector of
the first track into memory and then executing that code. It could be
actually be used to read any numbre of sectors from the track the head was
currently positioned over. With the addition of maybe 32 more bytes of
6502 code, you could write a head positioner routine that could move the
head around and read any sector from the disk.
I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems,
since the Apple system
was incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client
Huh?
I had who had been using an Apple][+ in his
business summarily took
his ][+, drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster
the day I moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC
and a conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog
heaven. His business picked up (though I don't know that the switch
had anything to do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX,
Whiskey, and prune juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got
to see a lot more of his wife and kids.
Sounds like user error to me. RTFM.
Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving
old 6502 source
files, I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was.
Huh?
No wondern so many folks switched to 8"
drives. I surely wish I could
find an old SVA controller ... <sigh> It's a real wonder
microcomputers caught on as well as they did, given the standard set
by the Apple ][. The work WOZ did to create the disk subsystem was
really ingenious, but still orders of magnitude less reliable than
what was offered on more conventional systems.
I have hundreds (>~500) Apple ][ disks that are still readable to this
day. Of my 17 or so years of hacking Apple ][s, I've only lost a handful
of disks, and that was usually due to physical errors. Once or twice I
lost a disk because random sectors were overwritten whilst hacking and the
system jumped into the middle of a DOS call, but that was rare.
Anyway, I'll just take your statement for what it is.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
31 Oct
31 Oct
2:34 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
It's not pilot error that causes the Apple disk
subsystem to fall
apart whenever there's the slightest error, it's the "we've got your
money now, so we've got you by the short and curly" attitude that
Apple has always had with respet to their customers' data. That
design of WOZ's was clever and cheap, ... REALLY cheap ... , but not
terribly reliable. Back in the early '80's I didn't know a single
user of the genuine Apple disk subsystem that didn't have a data loss
per hour in steady use. The guy I mentioned initially had phone-order
You must have had some very unlucky friends. If everyone had this same
experience then there probably would not have been millions of Apple disk
systems sold.
business, and, because his environment was not
perfectly clean, he was
constantly having to reboot his Apple, since it couldn't recover from
a disk read error, and this was before he had a toll-free number.
Sounds like shitty software to me.
I remember how people whined about the PC's
<abort, retry, fail> error
message for disk errors, yet Apple didn't even have one. It just went
TILT.
No it didn't.
Even back in those days we'd all come to expect
better than that, and,
by the way, the whole problem was exxentially gone if one used 8"
FDD's with the SVA controller.
How did that fix bad software with poorly designed error recovery?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
8:29 a.m.
The way I seem to remember it is that, back then, we were amazed when things
worked, rather than being irked when they didn't. Apple's attitude was clearl,
though, and that was that if your data really mattered, you'd certainly use a
computer and not an Apple. The Apple wasn't designed from the ground up as a
computing machine, but rather as a video toy (not in the disparaging sense) on
the order of the several other video games of the time, which, coincidentally
could also do some computing. Apple's approach was that if people were willing
to buy an Apple and then use it for useful work, they'd try to charge as much as
they possibly could, since the overall cost ostensibly would be low initially,
and then they'd make their money on the disk drives, (where they had some real
margin) and other add-ons that it took to convert the Apple into a computer
capable of doing useful work.
What makes all this crystal clear is that if I fire up an Apple today, it still
does all the stupid disk-subsystem-related crap it did back then, only, by now,
nobody would even think of putting up with that. Back then, it was about par
for the course, but it wouldn't last a week in today's environment.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
It's not pilot error that causes the Apple
disk subsystem to fall
apart whenever there's the slightest error, it's the "we've got your
money now, so we've got you by the short and curly" attitude that
Apple has always had with respet to their customers' data. That
design of WOZ's was clever and cheap, ... REALLY cheap ... , but not
terribly reliable. Back in the early '80's I didn't know a single
user of the genuine Apple disk subsystem that didn't have a data loss
per hour in steady use. The guy I mentioned initially had phone-order
You must have had some very unlucky friends. If everyone had this same
experience then there probably would not have been millions of Apple disk
systems sold.
business, and, because his environment was not
perfectly clean, he was
constantly having to reboot his Apple, since it couldn't recover from
a disk read error, and this was before he had a toll-free number.
Sounds like shitty software to me.
I remember how people whined about the PC's
<abort, retry, fail> error
message for disk errors, yet Apple didn't even have one. It just went
TILT.
No it didn't.
Even back in those days we'd all come to
expect better than that, and,
by the way, the whole problem was exxentially gone if one used 8"
FDD's with the SVA controller.
How did that fix bad software with poorly designed error recovery?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10:41 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
What makes all this crystal clear is that if I fire up
an Apple today,
it still does all the stupid disk-subsystem-related crap it did back
then, only, by now, nobody would even think of putting up with that.
Back then, it was about par for the course, but it wouldn't last a
week in today's environment.
Dick, I have my old Apple //e sitting behind me set up on a desk. I will
fire it up from time to time for various reasons both nostalgic and
practical. If I go to access files on my diskettes, they are still there,
and they read fine. Old video games I play from time to time load fine.
If there was ever a major problem as you describe with the disk system on
the Apple ][, I along with several thousand other Apple ][ enthusiasts,
would not have large collections of old Apple ][ disks that we still use
to this day.
If all PCs up and died today (say Bill Gates planted some super nasty
secret bug that made all PCs explode because we refused to give him our
first borns) I could go back to my Apple //e, where I would write and save
and load documents, work on spreadsheets stored on disk, download and
upload files to and from disk over a modem, play games from disk, etc.
Everything I could do on my PC, only a little slower and without nearly as
many crashes, but the fact is, it would work.
I'm not going to argue with the experience you had. It sounds like you
had the worst luck of anyone I've ever known. You may want to consider
investing in a rabbit's foot. But your experience is certainly not
typical. I'd describe it as ultra-super-rare.
And I think from this point you should describe any opinion you have of
the Apple Disk ][ system as just that--YOUR OPINION. Then I won't have to
respond to your messages ;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
4 Nov
4 Nov
7:12 a.m.
The way I seem to remember it is that, back then, we
were amazed when things
worked, rather than being irked when they didn't. Apple's attitude was
clearl,
though, and that was that if your data really mattered, you'd certainly use a
computer and not an Apple. The Apple wasn't designed from the ground up as a
That was NEVER the apple position, and while they grew largest in
education, Apple clearly targeted the SOHO market sector. What you are
repeating is the Wintel propaganda against Apple, hence the accronym
TA2INAT The Apple ][ is NOT a TOY.
I don't see how people can fail to be impressed with a system that can come
out of 22 years of use in the public school system and essentially function
as new. Clean and lubricate and the floppy drives still work fine.
1:07 p.m.
Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't
improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use,
but rather for use by those who didn't value and trust computers enough to make
the investment in one that warranted the value and trust. Oddly enough, it was
less costly to use a much more reliable system with a larger installed software
based, targeted at small business, yet, thanks to the Apple myths, people paid
15%-25% more with the idea that it would be easier to use, which, sadly, it
wasn't.
More below.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
The notion of "Wintel" and the associated propaganda "Myth"
didn't exist in
'79-'80, so that's clearly not what's being said here.
The way I seem
to remember it is that, back then, we were amazed when things
worked, rather than being irked when they didn't. Apple's attitude was
clear,
though, and that was that if your data really mattered, you'd certainly use a
computer and not an Apple. The Apple wasn't designed from the ground up as a
That was NEVER the apple position, and while they grew largest in
education, Apple clearly targeted the SOHO market sector. What you are
repeating is the Wintel propaganda against Apple, hence the accronym
TA2INAT The Apple ][ is NOT a TOY.
I don't see how people can fail to be impressed with a system that can come
out of 22 years of use in the public school system and essentially function
as new. Clean and lubricate and the floppy drives still work fine.
I'd say, from many years' experience, that it is probably, and at best, as
poor
as it was straight out of the box. The consensus back in '80 was that, equipped
with an 8" drive pair, the Apple ][ was a pretty good system, provided one
bought the Videx 80x24 display card for it.
1:49 p.m.
Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance
and reliability haven't
improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use,
I beg to differ. An 867MHz G4 cleans the floor with all but the newest 2.0GHz
P4s, and the architecture is so compelling that people like id's John Carmack
are jumping on the bandwagon (he's one of Darwin's developers, the OS behind
OS X). The days of the "poor Performas" are long gone.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- The Commodore 64: the last true plug-and-play computer. --------------------
5 Nov
5 Nov
12:11 a.m.
I'd love to have one of those dual-process G4's with the vector
capabilities. MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM.
Peace... Sridhar
On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Well, I'd
have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't
improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use,
I beg to differ. An 867MHz G4 cleans the floor with all but the newest 2.0GHz
P4s, and the architecture is so compelling that people like id's John Carmack
are jumping on the bandwagon (he's one of Darwin's developers, the OS behind
OS X). The days of the "poor Performas" are long gone.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- The Commodore 64: the last true plug-and-play computer. --------------------
12:18 a.m.
At 07:49 PM 11/4/01 -0800, Cameron wrote:
> Well, I'd have to say that, since the
performance and reliability haven't
> improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious
use,
I beg to differ. An 867MHz G4 cleans the floor with all but the newest 2.0GHz
P4s, and the architecture is so compelling that people like id's John Carmack
are jumping on the bandwagon (he's one of Darwin's developers, the OS behind
OS X). The days of the "poor Performas" are long gone.
What I would like to see is a LAPACK library that makes full use of the G4's
vector processing capability--it should bring any pentium of any speed to
its knees in numerical linear algebra applications. Is there any such beast
around? Of the non-commercial variety?
carlos.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
4:07 a.m.
I don't know what you Apple-Computer-Co pimps have been smoking ... I've never
said ANYTHING about products manufactured and sold after 1990 or so, and I
certainly have limited my comments to the products using the Wozniak floppy disk
interface, which is the basis of the complaints I've had to deal with since
1978. That's not to say that the "other" products are better in any way,
but
simply to limit this "discussion" since I clearly have little knowledge of or
liking for Apple Computer Co products, having consistently refused consulting
for companies that used them as computing platforms since my own disappointing
experience in 1980.
I'll repeat, that I find the Apple disk interface of the type associated with
the Apple][ family to be ridiculously fragile, requiring extensive precautions
in day-to-day use and extensive maintenance on a frequent (weekly) basis in
order to make them at all useful. That's a disappointment because technology
available at the same time these devices became popular worked MUCH better,
though people wanting to buy fully integrated systems which the Apple
"computers" of the time were marketed to be, weren't willing to pay the
price,
hence, were stuck with the Apple product instead.
Now, as for the post 1985 products, all of you Microsoft-haters ought to
remember how Apple dealt with its user base during the Lisa and early MAC years,
whenever you disparage M$ (not to defend these practices ... ) for its
distribution of different OS API's to different software vendors, depending on
the "deal" that was made.
I'm not at all certain of the truth of the claim that the latest
Apple-Computer-Co products "clean the floor" with the latest P4's or
whatever.
I'm willing to believe that their manufacturer claims that, however. It's no
secret that Apple likes to compare the raw computing power of their CPU's with
that of other processors with out taking into account the fact that they take a
large percentage (in the old 8MHz 68K systems it was more than half) of the
CPU's bandwidth and devote it to savimg Apple Computer Co some money. While
it's not a bad idea in itself, from an advertising standpoint, at least,
claiming that, when you use their product with processor XYZ, which performs so
and so with respect to processor ABC, albeit in a different environment than the
ABC uses, it's no better a representation of what you really get after the up to
80% performance penalty for Apple's use of the processor bandwidth to avoid
hardware costs, which hardware costs are passed along to the buyer just the
same, it's no better than the inflated performance claims of the other
"camps."
Now, I don't like Apple Computer Co's attitude toward their customers' data,
inherited, for sure, from the '80's, but certainly perpetuated into the current
generation, that if you really wanted a computer, you wouldn't have bought an
Apple Computer Co product. Consequently, I avoid them, and, to large extent,
their customers.
All this stems from the fact that back in the '80's, if even the teensiest thing
went wrong in the Apple]['s interaction with its own FD subsystem, the Apple][
went "TILT" and unless you knew things not yet published, you had no option but
to restart and lose your current set of working data. What's more, if you were
foolish enough to power down the system with a diskette in the drive, or if you
were foolish enough to set the Apple up as shown in numerous installations, with
the monitor atop the 2 FDD's and that pair atop the Apple box, your disk
subsystem gave you what they (Apple Computer Co) figured you deserved.
When I wrote:
"
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
> I beg to differ. An 867MHz G4 cleans the
floor with all but the newest 2.0GHz
> P4s, and the architecture is so compelling that people like id's John Carmack
> are jumping on the bandwagon (he's one of Darwin's developers, the OS behind
> OS X). The days of the "poor Performas" are long gone.
> --
> ----------------------------- personal page:
http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
> Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't
> improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious
use,
...
"
I clearly meant that the performance of the (APPLE ][) disk subsystems
manufactured back in the '80's, which were the ones under discussion, hadn't
improved in reliability or performance, which should now be clear, as I neither
know, nor care about the performance, or even existence of the Apple produt
line, and probably won't unless things change significantly. We were, after
all, discussing classic hardware, and not the current stuff.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cameron Kaiser" <spectre(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu > Well, I'd have to say that, since the
performance and reliability haven't
> improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious
use,
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University *
ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- The Commodore 64: the last true plug-and-play
computer. --------------------
6 Nov
6 Nov
6:52 a.m.
On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I don't know what you Apple-Computer-Co pimps have
been smoking ...
I've never said ANYTHING about products manufactured and sold after
1990 or so, and I certainly have limited my comments to the products
using the Wozniak floppy disk interface, which is the basis of the
complaints I've had to deal with since 1978. That's not to say that
That's the problem I have with your comments...the fact that they are so
very wrong and invalid. Like I said, I wish you would explicitly limit
your comments to being your opinion and not insisting on stating them as
"facts".
<OPINION>
I'll repeat, that I find the Apple disk interface
of the type
associated with the Apple][ family to be ridiculously fragile,
requiring extensive precautions in day-to-day use and extensive
maintenance on a frequent (weekly) basis in order to make them at all
useful. That's a disappointment because technology available at the
same time these devices became popular worked MUCH better, though
people wanting to buy fully integrated systems which the Apple
"computers" of the time were marketed to be, weren't willing to pay
the price, hence, were stuck with the Apple product instead.
</OPINION>
Now, as for the post 1985 products, all of you
Microsoft-haters ought
to remember how Apple dealt with its user base during the Lisa and
early MAC years, whenever you disparage M$ (not to defend these
practices ... ) for its distribution of different OS API's to
different software vendors, depending on the "deal" that was made.
Ok, they both have bad policies with regards to their API. It's just that
MS is excessively more egregious about it.
<FACTUALLY INCORRECT OPINION>
All this stems from the fact that back in the
'80's, if even the
teensiest thing went wrong in the Apple]['s interaction with its own
FD subsystem, the Apple][ went "TILT" and unless you knew things not
yet published, you had no option but to restart and lose your current
set of working data. What's more, if you were foolish enough to power
down the system with a diskette in the drive, or if you were foolish
enough to set the Apple up as shown in numerous installations, with
the monitor atop the 2 FDD's and that pair atop the Apple box, your
disk subsystem gave you what they (Apple Computer Co) figured you
deserved.
</FACTUALLY INCORRECT OPINION>
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10:39 a.m.
see below, plz.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I would label this as consensus rather than opinion, Sellam, as I've actually
done very little with Apple][ since the early '80's, but I've had to deal
with
the problems others have brought to me, which were trivially solvable by
plucking out the offending component, namely the Apple][ disk subsystem. Once
the disk subsystem has been gone, the Apple][ was quite solid and predictable,
in ways other than, "well, it's work for another hour or so ... then the disk
won't be readable any longer ...."
I don't know what you Apple-Computer-Co pimps
have been smoking ...
I've never said ANYTHING about products manufactured and sold after
1990 or so, and I certainly have limited my comments to the products
using the Wozniak floppy disk interface, which is the basis of the
complaints I've had to deal with since 1978. That's not to say that
That's the problem I have with your comments...the fact that they are so
very wrong and invalid. Like I said, I wish you would explicitly limit
your comments to being your opinion and not insisting on stating them as
"facts".
<OPINION>
I think your recollection is tainted by the Apple-colored glasses, Sellam.
I've
recently talked this sort of problem over with some of the guys who dealt with
it back in the '80's, which I didn't because I simply refused to use the
things
after seeing how cavalierly the Apple simply died and required a restart to
continue. Some of these guys remember the bitter arguments over the relative
reliability of the Apple][ versus CP/M boxes costing little more than half what
an Apple cost. As you can imagine, it's only grudgingly that they admit that
their choice was the wrong one. Hindsight is generally better than what one's
got here and now.
Since you seem to know something I don't, which is always possible, particularly
in this arena, perhaps you can clear up what one can do to recover from a disk
failure "hang" when the Apple cannot read its diskette. This sort of thing
seems to happen about once per hour if one is running software the actually uses
the disk drives, e.g. every two to three seconds, continually for extended
periods. It even occurs when running CP/M on the Apple drives. That's why
nobody I know did that.
If you know what to do to avoid having to restart and to avoid having to give up
on work entered manually since the last disk save, then please, quote me the
page and line in the documentation where it's described. That's all most folks
had to go on back when the Apple was a current device.
I'll repeat, that I find the Apple disk
interface of the type
associated with the Apple][ family to be ridiculously fragile,
requiring extensive precautions in day-to-day use and extensive
maintenance on a frequent (weekly) basis in order to make them at all
useful. That's a disappointment because technology available at the
same time these devices became popular worked MUCH better, though
people wanting to buy fully integrated systems which the Apple
"computers" of the time were marketed to be, weren't willing to pay
the price, hence, were stuck with the Apple product instead.
</OPINION>
Now, as for the post 1985 products, all of you
Microsoft-haters ought
to remember how Apple dealt with its user base during the Lisa and
early MAC years, whenever you disparage M$ (not to defend these
practices ... ) for its distribution of different OS API's to
different software vendors, depending on the "deal" that was made.
Ok, they both have bad policies with regards to their API. It's just that
MS is excessively more egregious about it.
<FACTUALLY INCORRECT OPINION>
All this stems from the fact that back in the
'80's, if even the
teensiest thing went wrong in the Apple]['s interaction with its own
FD subsystem, the Apple][ went "TILT" and unless you knew things not
yet published, you had no option but to restart and lose your current
set of working data. What's more, if you were foolish enough to power
down the system with a diskette in the drive, or if you were foolish
enough to set the Apple up as shown in numerous installations, with
the monitor atop the 2 FDD's and that pair atop the Apple box, your
disk subsystem gave you what they (Apple Computer Co) figured you
deserved.
</FACTUALLY INCORRECT OPINION>
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7 Nov
7 Nov
9:05 p.m.
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I would label this as consensus rather than opinion,
Sellam, as I've
What kind of "consensus" is a consensus of one?
actually done very little with Apple][ since the early
'80's, but I've
had to deal with the problems others have brought to me, which were
trivially solvable by plucking out the offending component, namely the
Apple][ disk subsystem. Once the disk subsystem has been gone, the
Apple][ was quite solid and predictable, in ways other than, "well,
it's work for another hour or so ... then the disk won't be readable
any longer ...."
Fairytales.
I think your recollection is tainted by the
Apple-colored glasses,
It's not a "recollection". As I said, I still use my Appple //e to this
day. Before my //e I had a ][+ I used for a few years. NEVER did I have
the problems you say you encountered. Your whole story is suspect. I
hate to say it, but either the hardware you folks in your particular part
of Colorado were getting were all defective, or you just didn't know how
to use them.
Did you always put disks away back in their sleeves? Did you refrain
from throwing them across the room or leaving them on
the floor where they
could be stepped upon? Did you keep your pocket magnets away
from them?
Did you avoid putting them in the dishwasher to clean them?
The problem was not the drives. It was the diskettes you used and the way
you treated them. Plain and simple.
Since you seem to know something I don't, which is
always possible,
particularly in this arena, perhaps you can clear up what one can do
to recover from a disk failure "hang" when the Apple cannot read its
diskette.
First of all, what operating system are we talking about, and what
software are we running?
If it's DOS 3.3, any disk error will result in some sort of error message
and a return to the command prompt (if that's where you were). If there
is an error encountered during the execution of a program, and the program
is doing no error trapping, the program will break execution upon the disk
error, returning you to the error prompt. If the program is doing error
handling, then it will usually provide you with some sort of error message
and a recovery option. If the program is written poorly, who knows what
may happen. Perhaps THEN the computer will lock up. Does this describe
YOUR experience? If so, what shit software were you running?
All this pretty much applies to ProDOS as well, although ProDOS was a tad
more robust.
This sort of thing seems to happen about once per hour
if one is
running software the actually uses the disk drives, e.g. every two to
three seconds, continually for extended periods. It even occurs when
running CP/M on the Apple drives. That's why nobody I know did that.
Like I said before, this is only happening in your partiular installation.
If I were you, I'd look for high voltage (kilovolts) power lines running
within 1 foot of your disk drives that may be causing eletromagnetic
interference. Being that that is most likely an unlikely scenario (at
least I would hope so, but it might explain your odd behavior) then I'd
next look for any very powerful magents that you may have sitting near
your disk drives. I would also have the room with your disk drives
exorcized for any demons that might be in the area. Have your local
pastor come in with some holy water.
If you know what to do to avoid having to restart and
to avoid having
to give up on work entered manually since the last disk save, then
please, quote me the page and line in the documentation where it's
described. That's all most folks had to go on back when the Apple was
a current device.
I can't answer your question. I would need more information from you. SO
far, the only information you've given is "it doesn't work". You're
a
tech support nightmare.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
8 Nov
8 Nov
12:45 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
If that were the case, those habits would have shown up in contexts other than
the Apple.
Unfortunately, the Apple just lights the LED on the drive and hangs. If it were
limited to a single system, that's what I'd suspect, but it behaves just the
same on an ][+, IIe, and //c. by virtue of the physical differences, some of
these "difficulties" aren't encountered on the //c, since it doesn't
have drives
sitting between the main box and the monitor.
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Perhaps you should ask yourself that, Sellam.
When I'm inexperienced with a particular piece of equipment, e.g. the Apple
series of products, I seek advice from folks of whom I know they have extensive
experience working with that particular machine. In order to avoid falling into
a trap with too limited a base of experience, I check with more than one such
individual.
Unlike you, Sellam, some folks actually did useful work with these machines, in
spite of their apparent weaknesses. There were ways in which one could avoid
the pitfalls associated with the various problems that were discovered, and
there were a number of problems that weren't real, but which suffered from a
high level of folklore among their user community. The guys who actually earned
their living with Apple hardware generally knew this, and, since I knew what
kinds of cars and houses their work provided them back then, I find it a
reasonable way to benefit from the experience of those who were successful at
using those tools. I don't listen to the guys who were selling used cars then
and are selling stocks now, no matter how skilled they are at talking about the
Apple.
I would label this as consensus rather than
opinion, Sellam, as I've
What kind of "consensus" is a consensus of one?
actually done very little with Apple][ since the
early '80's, but I've
had to deal with the problems others have brought to me, which were
trivially solvable by plucking out the offending component, namely the
Apple][ disk subsystem. Once the disk subsystem has been gone, the
Apple][ was quite solid and predictable, in ways other than, "well,
it's work for another hour or so ... then the disk won't be readable
any longer ...."
Fairytales.
I think your recollection is tainted by the
Apple-colored glasses,
It's not a "recollection". As I said, I still use my Appple //e to this
day. Before my //e I had a ][+ I used for a few years. NEVER did I have
the problems you say you encountered. Your whole story is suspect. I
hate to say it, but either the hardware you folks in your particular part
of Colorado were getting were all defective, or you just didn't know how
to use them.
Did you always put disks away back in their sleeves? Did you refrain
from throwing them across the room or leaving them on the floor where they
could be stepped upon? Did you keep your pocket magnets away from them?
Did you avoid putting them in the dishwasher to clean them?
The problem was not the drives. It was the diskettes you used and the way
you treated them. Plain and simple.
Since you seem to know something I don't,
which is always possible,
particularly in this arena, perhaps you can clear up what one can do
to recover from a disk failure "hang" when the Apple cannot read its
diskette.
First of all, what operating system are we talking about, and what
software are we running?
If it's DOS 3.3, any disk error will result in some sort of error message
and a return to the command prompt (if that's where you were). If there
is an error encountered during the execution of a program, and the program
is doing no error trapping, the program will break execution upon the disk
error, returning you to the error prompt. If the program is doing error
handling, then it will usually provide you with some sort of error message
and a recovery option. If the program is written poorly, who knows what
may happen. Perhaps THEN the computer will lock up. Does this describe
YOUR experience? If so, what shit software were you running?
All this pretty much applies to ProDOS as well, although ProDOS was a tad
more robust.
This sort of thing seems to happen about once per
hour if one is
running software the actually uses the disk drives, e.g. every two to
three seconds, continually for extended periods. It even occurs when
running CP/M on the Apple drives. That's why nobody I know did that.
Like I said before, this is only happening in your partiular installation.
If I were you, I'd look for high voltage (kilovolts) power lines running
within 1 foot of your disk drives that may be causing eletromagnetic
interference. Being that that is most likely an unlikely scenario (at
least I would hope so, but it might explain your odd behavior) then I'd
next look for any very powerful magents that you may have sitting near
your disk drives. I would also have the room with your disk drives
exorcized for any demons that might be in the area. Have your local
pastor come in with some holy water.
If you know what to do to avoid having to restart
and to avoid having
to give up on work entered manually since the last disk save, then
please, quote me the page and line in the documentation where it's
described. That's all most folks had to go on back when the Apple was
a current device.
I can't answer your question. I would need more information from you. SO
far, the only information you've given is "it doesn't work". You're a tech support nightmare.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
4:01 a.m.
RickE said:
Unlike you, Sellam, some folks actually did useful
work ... I
knew what kinds of cars and houses their work provided them
back then
I think Richard should close certain letters with a 'sniff' to
emphasize when he intends to snub or not.
Personally, I now have my dream car, but I often think of how
it could be better if I took all my luxury money and gave it away
to charity, as many do.
John A.
4:31 a.m.
I don't think I'll ever get my dream car. A
Bugatti EB16/4.
Nice choice...I'll likely never aquire mine either since all
surviving examples are still owned by the manufacturer...1955
Mercedes 300SLR.
BTW, a bit more on-topic...I had to provide phone support for
rather an odd setup today. Years ago someone wanted to connect a
Laserwriter printer to an ethernet connection. The connection from
the Mac then went like this:
Mac -> Asante SCSI to ethernet adapter -> Farallon Etherwave
ethernet to Localtalk adapter -> Laserwriter
This worked fine for the last 6 years and then the other day
their IT guys, who don't know anything about Mac's, came in and
plugged a LAN drop up to the ethernet connector on the mainboard.
This worked great for connecting to their LAN but caused the
Laserwriter, which is the only thing on the little adapter chain, to
disappear. In the end, moving the LAN drop from the onboard ethernet
port to the 2nd port on the Etherwave solved all the problems and
allowed all the connections to function. Now if I had been there
physically, I likely would have removed the adapter chain and
connected the Laserwriter to the Mac directly with the Localtalk
ports but I wasn't going to try and walk someone through a
reconfigure like that over the phone. She was just happy to be able
to print again.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
7:40 a.m.
My point was that Sellam wasn't old enough to be earning his living with the
Apple ][ back in the very early '80's. I'm sure Sellam has played with his
Apples enough to know a great deal about them by now, but the sorts of remarks
he's made just don't line up with the magazine articles about those very issues
that were published back in the '80's. People had problems with the Apple][
disk subsystem, but not terrible ones. However, it's stretching things a bit to
suggest they were as dependable as the 8" units we used with CP/M boxes day in
and day out.
The guys on whose experience I've relied for guidance with respect to the issues
surrounding use of the Apple][ did earn their living with the Apple, among other
systems, and of those who were Apple "heavies" I listened more to the ones who
were able to make the payments on late model German cars more that I listened to
the guys who were still driving the '67 Chevy their Dad had given them when they
graduated from high school.
For me, a car isn't something I dream about. I just gave my Maxima to my son,
who drives a lot more than I do, and I'm driving a Chevy that's old but has
<50K
miles on it in spite of its 14 years. Of course I only drive about 2500 miles a
year since I live pretty close to everywhere I want to go.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Allain" <allain(a)panix.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
RickE said:
Unlike you, Sellam, some folks actually did
useful work ... I
knew what kinds of cars and houses their work provided them
back then
I think Richard should close certain letters with a 'sniff' to
emphasize when he intends to snub or not.
Personally, I now have my dream car, but I often think of how
it could be better if I took all my luxury money and gave it away
to charity, as many do.
John A.
10 Nov
10 Nov
11:32 a.m.
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
My point was that Sellam wasn't old enough to be
earning his living
with the Apple ][ back in the very early '80's. I'm sure Sellam has
And this somehow supports your ignorant ranting about Apple disk drives?
played with his Apples enough to know a great deal
about them by now,
but the sorts of remarks he's made just don't line up with the
magazine articles about those very issues that were published back in
the '80's. People had problems with the Apple][ disk subsystem, but
not terrible ones. However, it's stretching things a bit to suggest
they were as dependable as the 8" units we used with CP/M boxes day in
and day out.
WHAT MAGAZINE ARTICLES???
Give me the name of the publication and the general timeframe, and I'll go
LOOK IT UP FOR YOU since you won't give me any references. Since I have a
complete collection of every Apple ][ and just about every non-Apple ][
magazine, I'm SURE I'll be able to come up with the article claiming the
Disk ][ was as unreliable as you claim it was.
My guess, though, is that this would be a wasted effort, because you
continue to talk out of your ass.
For me, a car isn't something I dream about. I
just gave my Maxima to
my son, who drives a lot more than I do, and I'm driving a Chevy
that's old but has <50K miles on it in spite of its 14 years. Of
course I only drive about 2500 miles a year since I live pretty close
to everywhere I want to go.
Good strategy! Change the subject and hope your moronic rantings will be
forgotten.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
1:36 p.m.
Pardon me from interrupting,
I just watch this mailing list, but I have noticed a definite trend.
You two hate each others guts, or at least do not respect each other
professionally in any way, shape or form. I appreciate that you contribute
to the community, and I respect both of you, but would you mind dealing with
it off list? Or at least keep the personal attacks to a minimum? I can
sort out the off topic threads ("food"), but it is much more difficult to
avoid your arguments, as they are usually in on topic threads.
Thank you for your time,
Zach
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Festival
My point was that Sellam wasn't old enough to
be earning his living
with the Apple ][ back in the very early '80's. I'm sure Sellam has
And this somehow supports your ignorant ranting about Apple disk drives?
played with his Apples enough to know a great
deal about them by now,
but the sorts of remarks he's made just don't line up with the
magazine articles about those very issues that were published back in
the '80's. People had problems with the Apple][ disk subsystem, but
not terrible ones. However, it's stretching things a bit to suggest
they were as dependable as the 8" units we used with CP/M boxes day in
and day out.
WHAT MAGAZINE ARTICLES???
Give me the name of the publication and the general timeframe, and I'll go
LOOK IT UP FOR YOU since you won't give me any references. Since I have a
complete collection of every Apple ][ and just about every non-Apple ][
magazine, I'm SURE I'll be able to come up with the article claiming the
Disk ][ was as unreliable as you claim it was.
My guess, though, is that this would be a wasted effort, because you
continue to talk out of your ass.
For me, a car isn't something I dream about.
I just gave my Maxima to
my son, who drives a lot more than I do, and I'm driving a Chevy
that's old but has <50K miles on it in spite of its 14 years. Of
course I only drive about 2500 miles a year since I live pretty close
to everywhere I want to go.
Good strategy! Change the subject and hope your moronic rantings will be
forgotten.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
3:24 p.m.
I don't have that info, not having dwelt on Apple-related issues, since I heard
plenty about them every week at the 6502 group meetings. However, if you look
in nearly any BYTE or Kilobaud issue from 1979 on, you'll generally find one or
two articles about how to fool your Apple into working more reliably. Some, but
not all, attempted to sell you something.
In recent months I've had to impose on some of those guys who actually did
useful work in spite of the Apple, and one even got out his old Apple][+ and
transcribed some Apple materials for me. He was the first to underscore the
general fragility and lack of dependability of the Apple][.
If Sellam insists, then we can agree to disagree, since I don't think much of
the Apple][, not back in the early days of microcomputers, and certainly not
now, when we can all thank our lucky starts that we have better tools to use.
In any case, I don't miss 'em because I didn't use 'em myself back then,
and I
don't want to do so now. Once that FOCAL manual is transcribed to a useful
format, these Apple machines I have are parts and scrap.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
My point was that Sellam wasn't old enough to
be earning his living
with the Apple ][ back in the very early '80's. I'm sure Sellam has
And this somehow supports your ignorant ranting about Apple disk drives?
played with his Apples enough to know a great
deal about them by now,
but the sorts of remarks he's made just don't line up with the
magazine articles about those very issues that were published back in
the '80's. People had problems with the Apple][ disk subsystem, but
not terrible ones. However, it's stretching things a bit to suggest
they were as dependable as the 8" units we used with CP/M boxes day in
and day out.
WHAT MAGAZINE ARTICLES???
Give me the name of the publication and the general timeframe, and I'll go
LOOK IT UP FOR YOU since you won't give me any references. Since I have a
complete collection of every Apple ][ and just about every non-Apple ][
magazine, I'm SURE I'll be able to come up with the article claiming the
Disk ][ was as unreliable as you claim it was.
My guess, though, is that this would be a wasted effort, because you
continue to talk out of your ass.
For me, a car isn't something I dream about.
I just gave my Maxima to
my son, who drives a lot more than I do, and I'm driving a Chevy
that's old but has <50K miles on it in spite of its 14 years. Of
course I only drive about 2500 miles a year since I live pretty close
to everywhere I want to go.
Good strategy! Change the subject and hope your moronic rantings will be
forgotten.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11 Nov
11 Nov
2:54 a.m.
On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
If Sellam insists, then we can agree to disagree,
since I don't think
much of the Apple][, not back in the early days of microcomputers, and
certainly not now, when we can all thank our lucky starts that we have
better tools to use. In any case, I don't miss 'em because I didn't
use 'em myself back then, and I don't want to do so now. Once that
FOCAL manual is transcribed to a useful format, these Apple machines I
have are parts and scrap.
No, we aren't going to "agree to disagree" because you're basically
claiming as fact something that is completely false. You are trying to
make your factually incorrect opinion a part of historical record. You
refuse to admit that your knowledge of the hardware in question is based
on secondhand information from your admittedly poor recollection, and just
above you state, "I didn't use 'em myself back then".
So the question is, what the hell do you really know about them anyway?
And the answer is, absolutely f-ing nothing.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
13 Nov
13 Nov
3:23 a.m.
If Sellam insists, then we can agree to disagree,
since I don't think much of
the Apple][, not back in the early days of microcomputers, and certainly not
now, when we can all thank our lucky starts that we have better tools to use.
On the other hand, I love Apple ][s. I spent much of my younger days with
them. I have a fairly reasonable collection of ][ series and clones. I spend
more time with my ][s than with any other of my systems. I love 'em. Yet,
I'm not joining Sellam in insisting that the Disk ][ system was the best thing
on the market.
Then again, I don't join my fellow Apple ][ collectors in claiming that the
6502 was the best processor on the market either. Like all religions, the
true believers will always shout down the heretics.
What the Apple ][ was (including the Disk ][ system) is an example of what
a great hacker can do with limited resources. It wasn't the fastest machine.
It didn't have the best graphics. It didn't have the best disk subsystem.
It had a positively crappy DOS. But it was an incredible hack. Maybe the
best I've ever seen.
Eric
6:01 a.m.
On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Eric J. Korpela wrote:
On the other hand, I love Apple ][s. I spent much of
my younger days
with them. I have a fairly reasonable collection of ][ series and
clones. I spend more time with my ][s than with any other of my
systems. I love 'em. Yet, I'm not joining Sellam in insisting that
the Disk ][ system was the best thing on the market.
I wasn't trying to insist that they were the best thing on the market,
only that Dick's assessment of them is completely wrong and not based on
any facts, and I wasn't going to allow his ramblings to taint the
knowledge base surrounding them.
Then again, I don't join my fellow Apple ][
collectors in claiming
that the 6502 was the best processor on the market either. Like all
religions, the true believers will always shout down the heretics.
You seem to be the only one turning this into a religious debate, for
what reason I don't know other than to cause more inflammation. I don't
recall anyone making this claim, at least in this latest argument.
I'll send you a tube of Preparation H.
What the Apple ][ was (including the Disk ][ system)
is an example of
what a great hacker can do with limited resources. It wasn't the
fastest machine. It didn't have the best graphics. It didn't have the
best disk subsystem. It had a positively crappy DOS. But it was an
incredible hack. Maybe the best I've ever seen.
A crappy DOS? I'll assume you're referring to DOS 3.2/3.3 since you
aren't specific in your ire. For a microcomputer circa 1977, it had a
pretty damn decent DOS. Among other many useful things, it could save and
load your programs reliably and fairly quickly (even quicker with the
numerous DOS hacks).
The Apple ][ is a good computer, as evidenced by the fact that it sold
millions up into the 1990s. It was only bested by the Commodore 64 in
sales. The C64 is also a good machine, having many fine features, and
certainly having more built-in sound and graphics capabilities than a
stock Apple ][. But I think the only reason it sold more millions of
units was because it was priced much lower.
Was the Apple ][ the "best" computer? That was then and is now a
subjective measure, and to get into such a debate would be pointless and
stupid.
So, we leave it at that.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:18 a.m.
You're right on the money, there, Eric, and I'm with you all the way on the
rather meager sort of DOS. By comparison with CP/M, it was pretty
disappointing, and Peter Boyle, the author of the XPL0 language for the 6502,
spent only a few weeks (less than two months) of his spare time, all the while
earning a living doing something for which he got paid, writing the APEX OS,
which was much easier to use, in my rather limited experience with the Apple,
than the various versions of an OS offered for the Apple][/][+, etc. and was
designed from the ground up for doing useful work, and not necessarily for
playing games. He did his work on 8" drives, I'd add, since he, too, had
limited confidence in the Apple][ disk subsystem.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric J. Korpela" <korpela(a)ssl.berkeley.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
> If Sellam insists, then we can agree to disagree, since I don't think much
of
> the Apple][, not back in the early days of
microcomputers, and certainly not
> now, when we can all thank our lucky starts that we have better tools to
use.
On the other hand, I love Apple ][s. I spent much of my younger days with
them. I have a fairly reasonable collection of ][ series and clones. I spend
more time with my ][s than with any other of my systems. I love 'em. Yet,
I'm not joining Sellam in insisting that the Disk ][ system was the best thing
on the market.
Then again, I don't join my fellow Apple ][ collectors in claiming that the
6502 was the best processor on the market either. Like all religions, the
true believers will always shout down the heretics.
What the Apple ][ was (including the Disk ][ system) is an example of what
a great hacker can do with limited resources. It wasn't the fastest machine.
It didn't have the best graphics. It didn't have the best disk subsystem.
It had a positively crappy DOS. But it was an incredible hack. Maybe the
best I've ever seen.
Eric
9:49 a.m.
New subject: USB 5 1/4 disk
Does anyone know if it's possible to attach a high density (1.2) 5-1/4 disk
drive to a PC via the USB port?
11:19 a.m.
New subject: USB 5 1/4 disk
Yes, it is possible since the data transfer speeds are slower than the USB
limit. the only problem is: it's not really feasible. Of the 2 companies
that I know of that experimented with the idea, neither produced because of
the lack of interest and large non-returnable fees involved with actually
developing and producing (en mass) working units. Plus, we all know WinDoze
never likes everything USB. It will always hate that one device you really
happen to need =) In linux, I know of a guy who had the idea, but never
created the assembly (the hardware for the layfolk) or bothered writing the
code for it since he was a poor college student like some of us (ok, so I'm
ex-college, I'm still po').
-John Boff.
At 06:49 PM 11/13/01, you wrote:
Does anyone know if it's possible to attach a high
density (1.2) 5-1/4
disk drive to a PC via the USB port?
----------------------------------------
Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst
and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies
http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html
---------------------------------------
6:52 p.m.
New subject: USB 5 1/4 disk
How feasible would it be to replace the 3.5" drive of a USB disk with a
5-1/4" one?
-- HBP
14 Nov
14 Nov
12:34 a.m.
New subject: (SemiOT) USB 5 1/4 disk
How feasible would it be to replace the 3.5"
drive of a USB disk
with a 5-1/4" one?
If I had to do this I'd take a 3.5disk>5.25cable adaptor, remove the
connectors and replace them with their gender opposites to make
an IDE 5.25disk>3.5cable adaptor, unless somebody can find Those.
John A.
6:02 a.m.
New subject: USB 5 1/4 disk
How feasible would it be to replace the 3.5" drive
of a USB disk with a
5-1/4" one?
-- HBP
Thats what I was wondering. Most of the USB stuff isn't breaking new
ground, just tacking USB into the middle of older designs, and don't most
motherboards still accept both types of floppy?
15 Nov
15 Nov
4:28 a.m.
New subject: 6502 vs the world (was Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
--- "Eric J. Korpela" <korpela(a)ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote:
Then again, I don't join my fellow Apple ][ collectors in claiming that
the 6502 was the best processor on the market either. Like all
religions,
the true believers will always shout down the
heretics.
Well... For the era and for price/performance I think it _was_ one of the
best processors on the market in 1977 (the field being so small, it's
easier to be the best ;-) Of course, best at _what_ is always the
question. It was hardly the best for running CP/M, so if that's what
you wanted, it wasn't even a contender. It was the best at doing what
it ended up doing - being an inexpensive general-purpose processor at
the heart of consumer machines. Plus at it's initial $20/each price,
it was hard to approach from an Intel or Motorola standpoint. Make it
very attractive for the <$1000 market.
Personally, I've always liked the Commodore machines, but, then my
first experience was with a 4K PET. Made lots of money on the Apple ][
(and the C-64), so does _that_ make it better? Maybe. In any case,
if I have the time to play with 8-bitters, I prefer spending the time
on the PET and its relatives as opposed to "newer" computers, but it's
strictly a personal preference, not a ringing endorsement.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com
10 Nov
10 Nov
11:07 a.m.
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Unlike you, Sellam, some folks actually did useful
work with these
machines, in spite of their apparent weaknesses. There were ways in
What is this supposed to mean? Can you ever post without introducing
rhetoric into the argument? That's usually the sign of insecurity, or
someone who knows their argument is full of shit.
which one could avoid the pitfalls associated with the
various
problems that were discovered, and there were a number of problems
that weren't real, but which suffered from a high level of folklore
among their user community.
GEE, YA THINK!? If ever there was a propagator of bullshit it is you.
The guys who actually earned their living with Apple
hardware
generally knew this, and, since I knew what kinds of cars and houses
their work provided them back then, I find it a reasonable way to
benefit from the experience of those who were successful at using
those tools. I don't listen to the guys who were selling used cars
then and are selling stocks now, no matter how skilled they are at
talking about the Apple.
Ok, so what you are saying here basically discredits the assertions you
were making before, which were that the Apple ][ disk system was such a
piece of crap that no useful work could be done on it. Hmmm, people who
were able to buy cars and houses from work done on Apple ][ computers
sound like they had little, if any, problems with the disk subsystem.
So once again, in true Dick style, you are basically now contradicting
your previous (and erroneous) assertions. The next phase is when you
start backtracking and claiming you never said the Apple disk system was
unrealiable.
Since I've revealed the plot, you can just cut to the finale and admit you
were wrong and an idiot and once again wasted bandwidth.
If that were the case, those habits would have shown
up in contexts
other than the Apple.
Or more likely your recollection is in error.
Unfortunately, the Apple just lights the LED on the
drive and hangs.
Ok, so this information is about as useless as this whole discussion has
been.
What does this have to do with the disk drive??? Have you ever considered
that the disk is bad, and that the software doesn't have adequate error
handling?
If it were limited to a single system, that's what
I'd suspect, but it
behaves just the same on an ][+, IIe, and //c. by virtue of the
physical differences, some of these "difficulties" aren't encountered
on the //c, since it doesn't have drives sitting between the main box
and the monitor.
Ok, I see the problem here. You have one disk with a bad sector and
crappy software that wasn't designed to handle faults properly. So
instead of suspecting the disk (the ONE thing common across all the
machines you are trying to run it on) you assume that all the drives you
are attempting to use are defective?
I'm in tears.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5 Nov
5 Nov
1 a.m.
On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I'd say, from many years' experience, that it
is probably, and at
best, as poor as it was straight out of the box. The consensus back
in '80 was that, equipped with an 8" drive pair, the Apple ][ was a
pretty good system, provided one bought the Videx 80x24 display card
for it.
I hear people once thought tomatos were poisonous.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
4:33 a.m.
That's true, actually. It was a real shock for people coming to the U.S. from
post-WW1 Europe to learn that social prejudices were so strong that people
perceived as "eaters of garlic" or, generally, consumers of multiple vegetables
in a single meal were looked down upon as somehow inferior. That shows how
insular the American attitude had become. Having sampled what was then, and by
some now, still is, considered basic "meat and potatoes" cuisine, (my first
wife
was a midwestern preacher's daughter), I have to say this was quite silly.
Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, but that's
just
human nature. My brother's wife and kids won't readily eat anything that's
not
sold at the "Golden Arches" though it can come from Burger King. It's awful
to
watch those now teenaged boys' (and their mother's) poking and prodding at the
fine meals my now 80+ year-old mother painstakingly prepares in an effort to
expose them to old-world cuisine.
However, there's an easily observable basis for the beliefs regarding the
Apple][ disk subsystem that I've put forth in this case, unlike the erroneous
conclusions that early 20th-century Americans had drawn about diet.
Clearly, there's no comparison between the CCS S-100 hardware + CP/M that I
bought in 1980, and the Apple][ of the same period. However, the real fact is
that there's similarly no comparison between the Apple][ of 1980 and the
Apple][ of 1980 equipped with an 8" disk drive controller and two 8" drives.
It's that disparity that I'm addressing, and not the Apple][ without its disk
drives.
The Apple][ disk subsystem was made in order to offer drives with a capacity
advantage over its competitor, the TRS-80 single-density 5-14" drives. I don't
remember the details of the cost difference, but the main advantage to Apple was
in that they built their own drive electronics and cound benefit at the system
level, cost-wise, from every little thing they left out. First of all, they
didn't have to buy them, and secondly, they didn't have to tolerate and
remediate their failures. They didn't have to buy the then quite costly FDC
chips that their competitors used, and they didn't have to package their drives
with coresident power supplies, since their packaging concept allowed them to
power their drives from the Apple's PSU. The fact that they were able to pocket
the cost savings, rather than passing them along to their customers, didn't find
disfavor among their investors, either. However, it's still a case of "you get
what they (Apple Computer Co) pay for" and they didn't pay for the same quality,
and the buyer didn't get the same quality.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I'd say, from many years' experience,
that it is probably, and at
best, as poor as it was straight out of the box. The consensus back
in '80 was that, equipped with an 8" drive pair, the Apple ][ was a
pretty good system, provided one bought the Videx 80x24 display card
for it.
I hear people once thought tomatos were poisonous.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11:27 a.m.
That's true, actually. It was a real shock for
people coming to the U.S. from
post-WW1 Europe to learn that social prejudices were so strong that people
perceived as "eaters of garlic" or, generally, consumers of multiple
vegetables
Collecting old computers is a hobby, eating is one of my favorite things to
do. Living in SoCal the only cuisine that seems hard to find is Hungarian,
and we get by with the cross over items most German places have (Goulash
and speatzl).
In the course of a typical month we eat a good dozen different foods of
different cultures, Dim Sum, Sushi, Steak, hamburgers and hot dogs, pizza,
spagetti, Korean BBQ, Mongolian BBQ, mexican, tex-mex, salad bars, french,
fancy Italian, German, Togos, Persian, Japanese (Ramen by the case),
English, Polish, heck we even have an Afgan place. And that isn't even
touching on 4 different kinds of BBQ from the US, plus the Carnesauria from
Boliva we visit more rarely (all you can eat, but mostly just meat meat
meat meat).
I don't know how I could stand a place with a lesser selection.
3:02 p.m.
New subject: food
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Americans have always been somewhat
"strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. We don't eat
anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is
pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot
of that is foreign influence.
but that's just
human nature. My brother's wife and kids won't readily eat anything that's
not
sold at the "Golden Arches" though it can come from Burger King. It's
awful to
watch those now teenaged boys' (and their mother's) poking and prodding at the
fine meals my now 80+ year-old mother painstakingly prepares in an effort to
expose them to old-world cuisine.
That's because the kids were raised poorly (food wise). I have a set of
cousins like that...... last Thanksgiving the boy ate only Biscuits!
There diets consist of mainly carbs, and sugar!
American food tends to be over processed nowadays, too.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
4:12 p.m.
New subject: food
It was only here in America that eating, garlic, tomatoes, vegetables, etc. was
considered risky or inappropriate at after WW1.
That's what was under discussion.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Fernandez" <fernande(a)internet1.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:02 PM
Subject: food
Richard Erlacher wrote:
not
Americans have always been somewhat
"strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. We don't eat
anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is
pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot
of that is foreign influence.
> but that's just
> human nature. My brother's wife and kids won't readily eat anything
that's > sold at the "Golden Arches" though it
can come from Burger King. It's awful
to
> watch those now teenaged boys' (and their
mother's) poking and prodding at
the
fine meals my
now 80+ year-old mother painstakingly prepares in an effort to
expose them to old-world cuisine.
That's because the kids were raised poorly (food wise). I have a set of
cousins like that...... last Thanksgiving the boy ate only Biscuits!
There diets consist of mainly carbs, and sugar!
American food tends to be over processed nowadays, too.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
5:02 p.m.
New subject: food
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
Americans have always been somewhat
"strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange.
5:28 p.m.
New subject: food
The same criterion could be applied to hot dogs.
Peace... Sridhar
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
Americans have always been somewhat
"strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange.
7:15 p.m.
New subject: food
Not really. If it's homemade, it's just meat juice and flour. It just
adds more liquid to food that may otherwise be a little dry.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote:
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com Americans have always been somewhat
"strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. 
10:48 p.m.
New subject: food
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-)
Bryan
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it.
Americans have always been somewhat
"strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. 
6 Nov
6 Nov
2:48 a.m.
New subject: food
On 06-Nov-2001 Bryan Pope wrote:
POUTINE! POUTINE! POUTINE!
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
-Philip
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-) Richard Erlacher wrote:
Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it.
Americans have always been somewhat
"strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. 
5:47 a.m.
New subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
Rumor has it that gwynp(a)artware.qc.ca may have mentioned these words:
On 06-Nov-2001 Bryan Pope wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
>>
>> > Richard Erlacher wrote:
>> >
>> > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their
diet,
Yea, as in -> real food has to be "americani[sz]ed" and preprocessed thru
Burger King et. al. before they'll eat it... Shame.
We have 2 chinese restaurants in town, which both suck... (americani[sz]ed)
and 1 greek restaurant, which is extremely good but don't serve enough
(IMHO) choices in the way of greek food... They have gyros, kalamari, and a
few other dishes & the rest - american. (damn good american, but american
nonetheless...)
:-(
I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger
anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this
Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a
baked pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic!
[[ And my kids *love* kalamari & most everything else I make them try... ]]
I am *not* a normal american... ;^>
>> > How? I've never seen anything that
I thought was strange.
>>
>> Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it.
Gravy is *not* strange if you've ever had pickled pigs feet... after that,
you know that gravy can be made with many things other than flour or corn
starch... ;-)
hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-)
POUTINE! POUTINE! POUTINE!
Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an
aside, what's Haggis?)
Thanks,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
6:14 a.m.
New subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
Roger Merchberger wrote:
Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american...
what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an
aside, what's Haggis?)
Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with cheese curds and
gravy.
Haggis has been referred to as a "culinary disaster", but as a Scot I feel
somewhat motivated to defend it -- although I have no idea quite how to
go about doing so. Oatmeal and chopped sheep sweetbreads stuffed into a
sheep's stomach and boiled. Frequently served for breakfast :P
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
8:21 a.m.
New subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
Both my Irish and Scot relatives of age (mostly 60's to 80's) all make and
eat Haggis and I've always hated what is in it but loved to eat it. Just
like broccoli with some people, it's an acquired taste.
-> -----Original Message-----
-> Roger Merchberger wrote:
->
-> > Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine?
-> (Oh, and as an
-> > aside, what's Haggis?)
->
-> Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with
-> cheese curds and
-> gravy.
->
-> Haggis has been referred to as a "culinary disaster", but as a
-> Scot I feel
-> somewhat motivated to defend it -- although I have no idea quite how to
-> go about doing so. Oatmeal and chopped sheep sweetbreads stuffed into a
-> sheep's stomach and boiled. Frequently served for breakfast :P
-> --
-> Chris Kennedy
-> chris(a)mainecoon.com
-> http://www.mainecoon.com
-> PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
->
->
11:26 a.m.
New subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chris Kennedy wrote:
Roger Merchberger wrote:
And should always be served with a wee dram of the single malt of your
choice poured over it!
- don
Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american...
what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an
aside, what's Haggis?)
Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with cheese curds and
gravy.
Haggis has been referred to as a "culinary disaster", but as a Scot I feel
somewhat motivated to defend it -- although I have no idea quite how to
go about doing so. Oatmeal and chopped sheep sweetbreads stuffed into a
sheep's stomach and boiled. Frequently served for breakfast :P
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
1:42 p.m.
New subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
Awrighty --
educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an
aside, what's Haggis?)
Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with cheese curds and
gravy.
6:57 a.m.
New subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
When my boys both were still well under 10 years old, they suddenly decided they
didn't like mushrooms. At that time, I had alternate weekend visitatation, as
their mother and I were divorced, and the last thing we normally did on Sunday
evening before they were returned to their Mom was have dinner, so she didn't
have to feed them right away. They claimed to like Chinese food, and, for some
years, up until the younger was just a bit over 10, they routinely enjoyed a
disk known as Moo Goo Gai Pan. AFAIK, Gai Pan is chicken, and Moo Goo is
mushroom. There were, of course sufficient snow peas in the dish that they
apparently went two or three years of eating this every other Sunday evening
before one of them finally figured out it was mainly mushrooms. I couldn't get
them to eat the stuff after that, even though they'd admittedly been enjoying it
for years. I guess that's just the way kids are. Someone must have told them
that eating mushrooms wasn't "cool."
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:47 PM
Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
Rumor has it that gwynp(a)artware.qc.ca may have
mentioned these words:
On 06-Nov-2001 Bryan Pope wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
>>
>> > Richard Erlacher wrote:
>> >
>> > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their
diet,
Yea, as in -> real food has to be "americani[sz]ed" and preprocessed thru
Burger King et. al. before they'll eat it... Shame.
We have 2 chinese restaurants in town, which both suck... (americani[sz]ed)
and 1 greek restaurant, which is extremely good but don't serve enough
(IMHO) choices in the way of greek food... They have gyros, kalamari, and a
few other dishes & the rest - american. (damn good american, but american
nonetheless...)
:-(
I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger
anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this
Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a
baked pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic!
[[ And my kids *love* kalamari & most everything else I make them try... ]]
I am *not* a normal american... ;^>
>> > How? I've never seen anything
that I thought was strange.
>>
>> Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it.
Gravy is *not* strange if you've ever had pickled pigs feet... after that,
you know that gravy can be made with many things other than flour or corn
starch... ;-)
hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-)
POUTINE! POUTINE! POUTINE!
Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an
aside, what's Haggis?)
Thanks,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
3:27 p.m.
New subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
I was a witness to my mother finding out that my adopted sister truly
didn't like lima beans. We were all sitting at the table..... "come on
Andrea, eat those lima beans....... Mom, I don't like them...... eat
them anyways......GAG BARF (literally :-)...... okay Andrea, you don't
have to eat lima beans anymore :-)"
Different situation than your kids, but funny!
Then there was the time, I saw her literally force a banana down her
throat as a two year old..... like we were going to take it away or
something, if she didn't get it down right away.
Richard Erlacher wrote:
When my boys both were still well under 10 years old, they suddenly decided they
didn't like mushrooms.
7 Nov
7 Nov
1:11 a.m.
New subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
I got in the habit of taking my boys to a cafeteria for the occasional meal when
they were with me. The purpose was to get them to try things, which I'd let
them pick, but they had to ead a couple of bites and then decide for themselves
whether they wanted it or not. I told them they could decide for themselves
whether they liked a given item, but they did have to decide on the basis of
having tasted it, not just on the basis of what someone else had told them.
It wasn't unusual to see them reject some veggie or fish, but it also wasn't
unusual to see them reject something and then come back to it later and give it
another try. I don't remember ever seeing them reject something and later go
back for another helping, though, so it did take a little time. This was all
training to permit them to acquire their own taste rather than simply reflecting
what was currently popular, as may youngsters do. Though they both like Mexican
food, which is popular here in Denver, neither of them willingly eats at Taco
Bell. I find that to be clear evidence of a relative success of my efforts to
make them form their own opinions.
There's no accounting for taste, but it's important that it be one's own
taste
that's being used as the yardstick.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Fernandez" <fernande(a)internet1.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
I was a witness to my mother finding out that my
adopted sister truly
didn't like lima beans. We were all sitting at the table..... "come on
Andrea, eat those lima beans....... Mom, I don't like them...... eat
them anyways......GAG BARF (literally :-)...... okay Andrea, you don't
have to eat lima beans anymore :-)"
Different situation than your kids, but funny!
Then there was the time, I saw her literally force a banana down her
throat as a two year old..... like we were going to take it away or
something, if she didn't get it down right away.
Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> When my boys both were still well under 10 years old, they suddenly decided
they
didn't
like mushrooms.
6 Nov
6 Nov
8:02 a.m.
New subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated:
I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger
anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this
Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a
baked pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic!
Mousaki---although I'm not spelling that right at all. There's a diner in
Boca Raton [1] called, appriately enough, the Boca Diner [2] that is Greek
owned and I've had it there. Quite good (if indeed, I'm thinking of the
right dish).
Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american...
what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an
aside, what's Haggis?)
I don't know what Poutine is, but I do know what Haggis is. Tripe [4].
Or in other words, cow stomache. Sorry, I'll pass.
-spc (Doing my best to keep this on topic)
[1] Marginally on topic as Boca Raton, FL was the birth place of the IBM
PC. The building that it was actually developed in is now an art
museum if I recall correctly.
If anyone is interested, here's a shot of IBM mainsite from
Terraserver:
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2946&am…
The large hex shape in the center is the (was the actually [3]) main
IBM building, with a large pool in the center. It's a beautiful
building.
[2] Not to be confused with the Boca Raton Diner (ick, ptuey!). It used
to be opened 24 hours (and was a favorite hangout for CS students at
FAU) but alas, no more.
[3] IBM pulled out of Boca Raton in 1995-96. The old IBM campus is now
owned by a company called TRex and it leases space out of the
buildings to high-tech companies.
Some friends and I took a walk through the main building in '98
(thereabouts---it was mostly empty at that point) and the server
rooms were impressive---some had raised floors of 6 feet or more
in height!
[4] Leared that from Hack (not Nethack). Also learned the vi movement
keys on that game. Still marginally on topic 8-)
7 Nov
7 Nov
7:40 a.m.
New subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food
>> >
> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet,
Yea, as in -> real food has to be "americani[sz]ed" and preprocessed thru
Burger King et. al. before they'll eat it... Shame.
We have 2 chinese restaurants in town, which both suck... (americani[sz]ed) and
1 greek restaurant, which is extremely good but don't serve enough (IMHO)
choices in the way of greek food... They have gyros, kalamari, and a few other
dishes & the rest - american. (damn good american, but american nonetheless...)
:-( I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger
anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this
Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a baked
pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic!
[[ And my kids *love* kalamari & most everything else I make them try... ]]
I am *not* a normal american... ;^>
>> > How? I've never seen anything
that I thought was strange.
>>
>> Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it.
Gravy is *not* strange if you've ever had pickled pigs feet... after that, you
know that gravy can be made with many things other than flour or corn starch...
;-)
hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-)
POUTINE! POUTINE! POUTINE!
Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an
aside, what's Haggis?)
Thanks,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
7 Nov
7 Nov
5:39 p.m.
New subject: food
Chad Fernandez skrev:
Richard Erlacher wrote:
> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought was
strange. We don't eat
anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is
pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot
of that is foreign influence.
I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that
require something "indigenous"? =)
I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but
there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must
say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged.
Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence,
added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality.
And everything is very colourful.
Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to
have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC
Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only
medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more
fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution".
7:40 p.m.
New subject: food
>> Americans have always been somewhat
"strange" about their diet,
I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define
"foreign". Doesn't that
Hey, its a BIG place here, and each region came from different cultures, so
every few hundred miles in any direction and "American" cuisine changes.
Most of the country accepts a "normal" meal as soup/salad (lettuce, nothing
too odd)/meat and potatoes with some veggie/dessert. What you get used to
though, is everything else, and maybe the disease we pass to the rest of
the world is fast food.
What I am thinking about right now, in the middle of the night with no
chance of getting any is Mole'. Mole' is a Mexican sauce made from chili
and raw chocolate, and it has no equal on chicken. My son is really set on
some Mongolian food for lunch tomorrow too. Hmpf.
11:22 p.m.
New subject: food
At 01:40 AM 11/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
What I am thinking about right now, in the middle of
the night with no
chance of getting any is Mole'. Mole' is a Mexican sauce made from chili
and raw chocolate, and it has no equal on chicken. My son is really set on
some Mongolian food for lunch tomorrow too. Hmpf.
Not all "moles" have chocolate in them. Poblano (the one you're
probably talking about) does, as does mole negro and mole oaxaquen~o.
But mole verde or mole amarillo don't have chocolate. You can
try to search for some old posts that I wrote in rec.food.recipes,
rec.food.cooking and alt.food.mexican on these and other mexican
delicacies including a whole head of beef, very slowly cooked
in a hole in the ground ("barbacoa de pozo"). Yum!. :-) .
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
8 Nov
8 Nov
4:51 a.m.
New subject: food
Not all "moles" have chocolate in them.
Poblano (the one you're
probably talking about) does, as does mole negro and mole oaxaquen~o.
But mole verde or mole amarillo don't have chocolate. You can
try to search for some old posts that I wrote in rec.food.recipes,
rec.food.cooking and alt.food.mexican on these and other mexican
delicacies including a whole head of beef, very slowly cooked
in a hole in the ground ("barbacoa de pozo"). Yum!. :-) .
Something about the taste of the Poblano chili I really like, especially
the chipolito stuff. Lately a couple places in the Sunday buffet have had
Mexican style hot chocolate and coffee and thats hooks more than a few
people.
If I "buryque" something, its going to be a goat. What is better than a
goat taco?
12:17 a.m.
New subject: food
Well, the people here in New York, the people where my parents live in
Phoenix, and where my parents' best friends live in Orlando, people
basically talk about the same stuff when they're talking about American
food. Basically diner food.
Peace... Sridhar
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote:
>>
Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet,
I find it somewhat interesting how Americans
define "foreign". Doesn't that
Hey, its a BIG place here, and each region came from different cultures, so
every few hundred miles in any direction and "American" cuisine changes.
Most of the country accepts a "normal" meal as soup/salad (lettuce, nothing
too odd)/meat and potatoes with some veggie/dessert. What you get used to
though, is everything else, and maybe the disease we pass to the rest of
the world is fast food.
What I am thinking about right now, in the middle of the night with no
chance of getting any is Mole'. Mole' is a Mexican sauce made from chili
and raw chocolate, and it has no equal on chicken. My son is really set on
some Mongolian food for lunch tomorrow too. Hmpf.
5:51 a.m.
New subject: food
Well, the people here in New York, the people where my
parents live in
Phoenix, and where my parents' best friends live in Orlando, people
basically talk about the same stuff when they're talking about American
food. Basically diner food.
Different foods have there times, around the 60s it was "chili bowl"
joints, 70s salad bars, 80s hamburger chains (that failed to go away).
Whats an orthodox diner meal, lettuce salad, meat and potatoes with gravy,
some kind of veggie, and a slice of pie. How about a guess on the top ten
favorite foods in USA (by meals eaten)?
hamburger
pizza
fried chicken
spagetti
meat and potatoes
steak
chinese
?
apparently fluff
3:38 p.m.
New subject: food
You forgor the 80's..... hamburger chains WITH salad bars! Wendys was
the longest running, well into the 90s, but Burger King had one for a
short while too, maybe even McDonalds too... I don't recall.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Mike Ford wrote:
Different foods have there times, around the 60s it
was "chili bowl"
joints, 70s salad bars, 80s hamburger chains (that failed to go away).
Whats an orthodox diner meal, lettuce salad, meat and potatoes with gravy,
some kind of veggie, and a slice of pie. How about a guess on the top ten
favorite foods in USA (by meals eaten)?
10 Nov
10 Nov
11:23 a.m.
New subject: food
Um, is this the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list? Some culinary mailing
list traffics seems to be getting mixed in here.
As we've discussed before, an occasional off topic posting is OK. A
long-assed thread is not. It's starting to drown out my pointless
argument with Dick (or is that perhaps the point?)
At least precede your subject line with OFF-TOPIC!
Better yet, MOVE THIS DISCUSSION ELSEWHERE!!!
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
8 Nov
8 Nov
12:20 a.m.
New subject: food
see below, plz
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: food
<snip <snip
maybe the disease we pass to the rest of the world is
fast food.
Fast food wasn't a bad idea, initially, when it was pretty fast and pretty
nearly food. Now, it seems as though it's neither nowadays.
When I was a boy, I worked at one of the first two McDonalds' outlets (I hate to
call them "restaurants") in Denver. Working the "window" meant you
were fired
if it took longer than 30 seconds to process an order, aside from making change.
Of course customers didn't have to deal with the confusing menus and confusing
prices. A burger (no cheeseburgers back then) cost $0.15, fries cost $0.11, and
a vanilla milkshake cost $0.21. That was the range of the offering, and it was
really fast. Now, was it food? ... well ...
7 Nov
7 Nov
11:45 p.m.
New subject: food
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iggy Drougge" <optimus(a)canit.se>
To: "Chad Fernandez" <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: food
Chad Fernandez skrev:
<snip>
Richard Erlacher wrote:
> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet,
And everything is very colourful.
Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to
have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
What??? You mean it isn't? I'd guess it's more so than the
mostly-sugar things
folks put on their morning toast if butter isn't enough.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC
Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only
medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more
fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution".
8 Nov
8 Nov
12:13 a.m.
New subject: food
On 8 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote:
Chad Fernandez skrev:
Sure. There's food that's indigenous. There's definitely food that
Americans came up with.
Richard Erlacher wrote:
> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought
was strange. We don't eat
anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is
pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot
of that is foreign influence.
I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't
that
require something "indigenous"? =) I can't say that I know much about American
cousine, save for hamburgers, but
there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must
say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged.
Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence,
added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality.
That's weird. I don't see that here in the US.
And everything is very colourful.
I do see that here.
Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter,
which I think you're supposed to
have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
Fluff? Fluff is awesome. I eat it all the time.
Peace... Sridhar
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC
Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only
medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more
fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution".
3:40 a.m.
New subject: food
I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define
"foreign". Doesn't that
require something "indigenous"? =)
I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but
there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must
say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged.
Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence,
added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality.
And everything is very colourful.
Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to
have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
Outside of the US, the general impression you get of American food is
always deranged. I've lived in the US for my entire life and have never
been subjected to marshmallow butter, or a mixed mustard and mayonnaise.
Smoke essence, occasionally, since it's usually an ingredient of BBQ potato
chips.
The reality is that in the US, when you go for Mexican food you are usually
getting american food with mexican roots. Same goes for any other ethnicity.
American food, like american culture, is a mixture of whatever people brought
with them and what was already here when they arrived. The best of it is
great, the worst of it is really bad. You can't claim it lacks variety, though.
But you can bet when you try to get American food outside of North America,
you're far more likely to find an overcooked burger with sweet relish on it
than a steaming pile of crawdads.
Eric
5:45 a.m.
New subject: OT - Re: food
Iggy Drougge wrote:
Chad Fernandez skrev:
Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or "ugly". Those comments make
us
indigenous.
(And they say that WE have double standards!)
Richard Erlacher wrote:
> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet,
How? I've never seen anything that I thought
was strange. We don't eat
anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is
pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot
of that is foreign influence.
I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't
that
require something "indigenous"? =)
I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but
there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must
say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged.
But guess what? I can go to any large city and even smaller ones and get:
Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African (and
others)
food.
In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of my house, with many choices
of
many. What I lack is good German food nearby, but that is another story.
Can you get that variety where you live?
Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one
bottle. Smoke essence,
added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality.
And everything is very colourful.
Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to
have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
Sounds like Japanese (oops, forgot to add that to my list above) steak house
food.
IOW, authenitic Japanese food is not steak house food, its an American-influenced
version of Japanese food. Authentic Japanese food is sushi, sashimi, sukiaki,
etc.
It sounds like what they are passing off as "American food" is a euphemism for
"weird food".
Eric
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC
Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only
medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more
fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution".
8:57 a.m.
New subject: OT - Re: food
Eric Chomko skrev:
Iggy Drougge wrote:
> I find it somewhat interesting how Americans
define "foreign". Doesn't that
> require something "indigenous"? =)
Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or
"ugly". Those comments make us
indigenous.
(And they say that WE have double standards!)
It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define
what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all.
> I can't say that I know much about American
cousine, save for hamburgers,
> but there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I
> must say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely
> deranged.
But guess what? I can go to any large city and even
smaller ones and get:
Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African (and
others) food.
In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of my house, with many
choices of many. What I lack is good German food nearby, but that is another
story.
Can you get that variety where you live?
Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =)
There is a great kiosk with German sausages, too. I don't know much about
German food, though. When I was on holidays in Germany, all I ate was kebab
and Chinese food.
But German kebabs are different. They're made by Turks, and called "kebap".
They often contain chicken.
> Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into
one bottle. Smoke essence,
> added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality.
> And everything is very colourful.
> Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed
> to have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
Sounds like Japanese (oops, forgot to add that to my
list above) steak house
food.
IOW, authenitic Japanese food is not steak house food, its an
American-influenced version of Japanese food. Authentic Japanese food is
sushi, sashimi, sukiaki, etc.
I know all about Japanese food (I'm a Japanese student), but what is Japanese
steakhouse? Teppanyaki? Teriyaki? Is it good? I really like teriyaki sauce.
It sounds like what they are passing off as
"American food" is a euphemism
for "weird food".
I think that's the main selling point, too. My family loves it.
I often eat a soup called "Americana", and that seems a lot more wholesome,
like a minestrone, and no marshmallow in sight.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
But a graphical client/server model that slices the interface down some
arbitrary middle is like Solomon following through with his child-sharing
strategy. The legs, heart, and left eye end up on the server, the arms and
lungs go to the client, the head is left rolling around on the floor, and
blood spurts everywhere.
Don Hopkins - The Unix hater's handbook; The X-Windows disaster
2:07 p.m.
New subject: OT - Re: food
Iggy Drougge wrote:
I can walk to one.
Yes, it is good, but not authetic. I understand that the Japenese actually like it
now!
Come to the US and let me know if you can get to DC. I'll take you out (my treat!)
We'll hit an eatery. Guaranteed to please all.
Eric Chomko skrev:
Yes we are. And?
Iggy Drougge wrote:
> I find it somewhat interesting how Americans
define "foreign". Doesn't that
> require something "indigenous"? =)
Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or
"ugly". Those comments make us
indigenous.
(And they say that WE have double standards!)
It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define
what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all.
> I can't say that I know much about
American cousine, save for hamburgers,
> but there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I
> must say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely
> deranged.
But guess what? I can go to any large city and
even smaller ones and get:
Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African (and
others) food.
In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of my house, with many
choices of many. What I lack is good German food nearby, but that is another
story.
Can you get that variety where you live?
Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =)
There is a great kiosk with German sausages, too. I
don't know much about
German food, though. When I was on holidays in Germany, all I ate was kebab
and Chinese food.
But German kebabs are different. They're made by Turks, and called
"kebap".
They often contain chicken.
Not German. What beer did they serve?
> Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed
into one bottle. Smoke essence,
> added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality.
> And everything is very colourful.
> Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed
> to have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
Sounds like Japanese (oops, forgot to add that to
my list above) steak house
food.
IOW, authenitic Japanese food is not steak house food, its an
American-influenced version of Japanese food. Authentic Japanese food is
sushi, sashimi, sukiaki, etc.
I know all about Japanese food (I'm a Japanese student), but what is Japanese
steakhouse? Teppanyaki? Teriyaki? Is it good? I really like teriyaki sauce.
It sounds like what they are passing off as
"American food" is a euphemism
for "weird food".
I think that's the main selling point, too. My family loves it.
I often eat a soup called "Americana", and
that seems a lot more wholesome,
like a minestrone, and no marshmallow in sight.
I prefer Maryland Crab Soup, homemade.
Eric
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
But a graphical client/server model that slices the interface down some
arbitrary middle is like Solomon following through with his child-sharing
strategy. The legs, heart, and left eye end up on the server, the arms and
lungs go to the client, the head is left rolling around on the floor, and
blood spurts everywhere.
Don Hopkins - The Unix hater's handbook; The X-Windows disaster
9 Nov
9 Nov
6:06 a.m.
New subject: OT - Re: food
Eric Chomko skrev:
Iggy Drougge wrote:
>> Eric Chomko skrev:
>>
>> Iggy Drougge wrote:
>>
>> >> I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign".
Doesn't
>> >> that require something "indigenous"? =)
>>
>> >Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or "ugly". Those
comments make us
>> >indigenous.
>> >(And they say that WE have double standards!)
>>
>> It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define
>> what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all.
Yes we are. And?
So when do you decide that someone is a foreigner?
> >But guess what? I can go to any large city and
even smaller ones and get:
> >Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African
> >(and others) food. In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of
> >my house, with many choices of many. What I lack is good German food
> >nearby, but that is another story.
>
> >Can you get that variety where you live?
>
> Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =)
I can walk to one.
I can walk to Moscow.
> There is a great kiosk with German sausages, too.
I don't know much about
> German food, though. When I was on holidays in Germany, all I ate was kebab
> and Chinese food. But German kebabs are different. They're made by Turks,
> and called "kebap". They often contain chicken.
Not German. What beer did they serve?
Berliner Kindl.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
[E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition
of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to
the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its
initial impact on the world.
J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture
10 Nov
10 Nov
5:09 a.m.
New subject: OT - Re: food
Iggy Drougge wrote:
Why don't you then?
Sounds like a local northern brew. I think that there is a reason that Oktoberfest
is
in Munich.
Eric
Eric Chomko skrev:
Usually when they tell me their country of orgin. Gievn the melting-post aspect
of the US, why would I assume someone is a foreigner when I meet them here?
Iggy Drougge wrote:
>> Eric Chomko skrev:
>>
>> Iggy Drougge wrote:
>>
>> >> I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define
"foreign". Doesn't
>> >> that require something "indigenous"? =)
>>
>> >Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or "ugly". Those
comments make us
>> >indigenous.
>> >(And they say that WE have double standards!)
>>
>> It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define
>> what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all.
Yes we are. And?
So when do you decide that someone is a foreigner?
> >But guess what? I can go to any large
city and even smaller ones and get:
> >Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African
> >(and others) food. In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of
> >my house, with many choices of many. What I lack is good German food
> >nearby, but that is another story.
>
> >Can you get that variety where you live?
>
> Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =)
I can walk to one.
I can walk to Moscow. > There is a great kiosk with German sausages,
too. I don't know much about
> German food, though. When I was on holidays in Germany, all I ate was kebab
> and Chinese food. But German kebabs are different. They're made by Turks,
> and called "kebap". They often contain chicken.
Not German. What beer did they serve?
Berliner Kindl.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
[E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition
of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to
the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its
initial impact on the world.
J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture
8 Nov
8 Nov
7:45 a.m.
New subject: food
Rumor has it that Iggy Drougge may have mentioned these words:
I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define
"foreign". Doesn't that
require something "indigenous"? =)
Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by this... Despite the last name
of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly
those who were here before the europeans arrived...
American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it -
there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with
the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American
Indian pow-wow.
I can't say that I know much about American
cousine, save for hamburgers, but
there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must
say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged.
Sounds just a deranged as what we Americans call "foreign" food, which at
best is 1/2 Americanized -- at worst, it's not palatable.
Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella...
I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff...
*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only
rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back
when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a
year...). :-(
Find a way to get me a jar or two, and I'll forgive that "indigenous"
remark...
8:15 a.m.
New subject: food
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Hmm? It's available in supermarkets here. In New York. Ask your local
supermarket's manager. Supermarkets are usually fairly accomodating, and
if they don't have it, they will usually get some for you.
Peace... Sridhar
Makes Nutella
seem like a wholesome product. =)
At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella...
I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff...
*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only
rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back
when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a
year...). :-(
3:25 p.m.
New subject: food
You could attempt to make it yourself if you have a blender. Hazlenuts,
chocolate syrup, marshmallow cream ... I guess it depends on how long it's been
since you last tasted the real McCoy.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "One Without Reason" <vance(a)ikickass.org>
To: "Roger Merchberger" <zmerch(a)30below.com>
Cc: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: food
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Hmm? It's available in supermarkets here. In New York. Ask your local
supermarket's manager. Supermarkets are usually fairly accomodating, and
if they don't have it, they will usually get some for you.
Peace... Sridhar
Makes
Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella...
I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff...
*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only
rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back
when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a
year...). :-( 
8:18 a.m.
New subject: food
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote:
*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from
Deutschland. I ask only
rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back
when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a
year...). :-(
Holy cow, Merch, give your corner grocery another look. I've been able to
buy Nutella at almost any supermarket in the greater Seattle metro area
for several years now. It's even got a proper US-market nutrition label on
it these days, unlike the Ritter Sport I find every now and then, which
has just a sticker over the European-market wrapper.
Um.. this isn't really on topic for another few years yet. I had Nutella
for the first time in mid-1994, when I went to visit a friend in southern
Germany. It'll only be on topic then because we ate it on broetchen while
hacking on his PC (hallo Andi). (;
ok
r.
3:26 p.m.
New subject: food
It's on topic ... I had the stuff in '66.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" <red(a)bears.org>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: food
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote:
*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some
from Deutschland. I ask only
rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back
when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a
year...). :-(
Holy cow, Merch, give your corner grocery another look. I've been able to
buy Nutella at almost any supermarket in the greater Seattle metro area
for several years now. It's even got a proper US-market nutrition label on
it these days, unlike the Ritter Sport I find every now and then, which
has just a sticker over the European-market wrapper.
Um.. this isn't really on topic for another few years yet. I had Nutella
for the first time in mid-1994, when I went to visit a friend in southern
Germany. It'll only be on topic then because we ate it on broetchen while
hacking on his PC (hallo Andi). (;
ok
r.
4:59 p.m.
New subject: food
All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. What the hell is
Nutella?
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
11:14 p.m.
New subject: food
Nutella is a Hazelnut and cocoa spread
http://www.nutellausa.com/
At 12:59 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote:
All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an
education. What the hell is
Nutella?
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
11:21 p.m.
New subject: food
At 12:59 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote:
All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an
education. What the hell is
Nutella?
Peanut butter type product made in Europe with hazelnuts, cocoa and milk.
You can get it in most large food stores for about $3
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gene(a)ehrich.com
gehrich(a)tampabay.rr.com
P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365
http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale
9 Nov
9 Nov
12:10 a.m.
New subject: food
On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote:
At 12:59 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote:
It's probably there; I just don't frequent that part of the grocery store
(Wal-Mart).
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an
education. What the
hell is Nutella?
Peanut butter type product made in Europe with hazelnuts, cocoa and milk.
You can get it in most large food stores for about $3
12:59 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
At 08:10 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote:
On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote:
If you are a chocolate lover you gotta try it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gene(a)ehrich.com
gehrich(a)tampabay.rr.com
P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365
http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale
At 12:59 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote:
It's probably there; I just don't frequent that part of the grocery store
(Wal-Mart). All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an
education. What the
hell is Nutella?
Peanut butter type product made in Europe with hazelnuts, cocoa and milk.
You can get it in most large food stores for about $3
1:26 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
Gene Ehrich wrote:
[Re: Nutella]
If you are a chocolate lover you gotta try it.
Yep. Then again my tastes may be suspect. I'm probably one
of about six US-born individuals who actually _likes_ Vegemite.
On a related topic, does anyone know where I can get proper
mustard? I'm talking about traditionally hot, sinus-melting
English mustard. I have a friend who brings jars back from
Oz, but the supply is spotty at best...
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
6:29 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
Bryan Pope skrev:
> What is vegemite? I have never heard of it.
That is like asking "What is sausage made from?
How do they make it?" !!
From meat and bowels, of course. Plastic bowels if
they're cheap.
But seriously, what is it? Some kind of p?t??
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt
als putzen?
--- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
7:02 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
Bryan Pope skrev:
Yeast waste... But it is good for you and *packed* with nutrients.
Bryan
> What is vegemite? I have never heard of it.
That is like asking "What is sausage made
from? How do they make it?" !!
From meat and bowels, of course. Plastic bowels if
they're cheap.
But seriously, what is it? Some kind of pâté?
2:59 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
Chad Fernandez wrote:
What is vegemite? I have never heard of it.
The food of the gods or one of the foulest tasting substances
on the planet, depending on who you ask. It's also, in effect,
a wonderful example of "waste stream utilization".
Vegemite is a dark brown pasty substance with a modestly stiff
consistency. Looks a lot like shoe polish. It's concentrated
yeast extract; the ingredients list read "Yeast extract, salt,
mineral salt, malt extract, natural colour, vegetable extract,
thiamine, riboflavin, niacin".
The most common way to eat this stuff is to spread a thin layer
on buttered toast, but I've developed a sufficient immunity
as to slather the stuff on. It's also used in cooking, although
I've yet to try any such dish and somehow the thought of
Vegemite soup ranks right up there with a five-course meal of uni.
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
10:07 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Kennedy" <chris(a)mainecoon.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 3:29 AM
Subject: RE: Nutella
Chad Fernandez wrote:
> What is vegemite? I have never heard of it.
You don't know any Australians do you? :^)
The food of the gods or one of the foulest tasting
substances
on the planet, depending on who you ask. It's also, in effect,
a wonderful example of "waste stream utilization".
Interestng description.
Vegemite is a dark brown pasty substance with a
modestly stiff
consistency. Looks a lot like shoe polish. It's concentrated
yeast extract; the ingredients list read "Yeast extract, salt,
mineral salt, malt extract, natural colour, vegetable extract,
thiamine, riboflavin, niacin".
Favoured kids breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....) spread in Australia.
Now owned by Kraft, a US company.
Favoured by parents too as it contains very little sugar and is actually
very good for growing kids.
Kids grow up with it and usually carry the 'taste' for it into adulthood.
Most Yanks consider it child abuse to force this on children, however the
kids LIKE it
and we think the same about (Peanut Butter and Jelly- or in English, Peanut
Paste and Jam) Erk.
I like vegemite (having been raised on it). I also like Peanut paste, I like
various jams too, but peanut and
jam together is a needle pinner on the yuckometer.
The most common way to eat this stuff is to spread a
thin layer
on buttered toast, but I've developed a sufficient immunity
as to slather the stuff on.
The flavour is very strong, most people that try it the first time put too
much on and get put off permanently,
it's an acquired taste, like chilli I guess.
Kids don't go thru this, some parents put it on kids dummies when they are
younger. By the time they are 2 or 3 they have it on toast at least daily.
It's also used in cooking, although
I've yet to try any such dish and somehow the thought of
Vegemite soup ranks right up there with a five-course meal of uni.
Not unlike Bovril. (British beef based drink made from a dark looking
paste)
Oddly enough it can be rather pleasant, especially in a gun pit at 3am on a
freezing, raining August morning when you are on guard duty and knee deep in
water, sipping it from a kidney cup. Because it's hot, smells good and you
ran out of coffee and sugar 3 hours ago.
cheers
Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Mark's College
Port Pirie,
South Australia
geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au
12:26 p.m.
New subject: Nutella
Geoff Roberts wrote:
[I wrote]
Actually, I dropped the ball on that one. I meant to elaborate and
point out that the source of the yeast used to be the trub left
over from brewing, hence the "waste stream utilization" comment --
although I don't know if that's still the source.
[snip]
The food of
the gods or one of the foulest tasting substances
on the planet, depending on who you ask. It's also, in effect,
a wonderful example of "waste stream utilization".
Interestng description. The flavour is very strong, most people that try it
the first time put too
much on and get put off permanently,
Yes. I tell those new to Vegemite to fix buttered toast and then just
gently pass the knife with Vegemite over said toast -- about one step
more intimate than just showing the toast the jar. Properly introduced
the taste seems to grow on people.
[snip]
Not unlike Bovril. (British beef based drink made
from a dark looking
paste)
Bovril! I'd actually forgotten about that stuff!
Oddly enough it can be rather pleasant, especially in
a gun pit at 3am on a
freezing, raining August morning when you are on guard duty and knee deep in
water, sipping it from a kidney cup. Because it's hot, smells good and you
ran out of coffee and sugar 3 hours ago.
*grins* Yeah, I can see that. The last time I had Bovril was at a
football game where it had been pissing down rain throughout the match.
We were all so miserable that it actually tasted good and we managed
to avoid asking (out loud at least) what the hell "beef extract" really
consisted of.
Cheers,
Chris.
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
3:21 p.m.
New subject: Nutella
The images certainly aren't plesant.... the last time I saw a cow
extract anything......
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Chris Kennedy wrote:
The last time I had Bovril was at a
football game where it had been pissing down rain throughout the match.
We were all so miserable that it actually tasted good and we managed
to avoid asking (out loud at least) what the hell "beef extract" really
consisted of.
Cheers,
Chris.
3:18 p.m.
New subject: Nutella
Geoff Roberts wrote:
Nope :-)
> What is
vegemite? I have never heard of it.
You don't know any Australians do you? :^) Favoured kids breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....)
spread in Australia.
Now owned by Kraft, a US company.
Kraft is actually part of one of the big tabacco companies now.... but I
don't recall which one.
Favoured by parents too as it contains very little
sugar and is actually
very good for growing kids.
Wow, surprising. I figured it was a kind of junk food type stuff,
considering some of the other foods (foods?) we have been discussing.
Kids grow up with it and usually carry the
'taste' for it into adulthood.
Most Yanks consider it child abuse to force this on children, however the
kids LIKE it
and we think the same about (Peanut Butter and Jelly- or in English, Peanut
Paste and Jam) Erk.
I like vegemite (having been raised on it). I also like Peanut paste, I like
various jams too, but peanut and
jam together is a needle pinner on the yuckometer.
You don't like Peanut Butter and Jelly? Wow! I guess tastes do vary by
country/culture.
The flavour is very strong, most people that try it
the first time put too
much on and get put off permanently,
it's an acquired taste, like chilli I guess.
The taste of Chilli is acquired? I didn't really like the beans in it
when I was little, but most people like it in the US, I think.
Kids don't go thru this, some parents put it on
kids dummies when they are
younger. By the time they are 2 or 3 they have it on toast at least daily.
What's a dummie? In the US a dummie, is a "dumb" Person.... a stupid
person, etc, but used jokingly most of the time, because if you really
get someone mad at your, for doing something dumb, they'll call you much
worse :-) (it might be dummy, not dummie..... I've never written it
down before)
Not unlike Bovril. (British beef based drink made
from a dark looking
paste)
Oddly enough it can be rather pleasant, especially in a gun pit at 3am on a
freezing, raining August morning when you are on guard duty and knee deep in
water, sipping it from a kidney cup. Because it's hot, smells good and you
ran out of coffee and sugar 3 hours ago.
That sounds absolutely disgusting :-(
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
4:14 p.m.
New subject: Nutella
Favoured kids
breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....) spread in Australia.
Now owned by Kraft, a US company.
Kraft is actually part of one of the big tabacco companies now.... but I
don't recall which one.
4:43 p.m.
New subject: Nutella
Ah yes, I knew RJR didn't sound right. The Post Cereal plant here in
town is now Kraft/Philip Morris. Post being a division of Kraft, now.
If I recall correctly, I thought I heard something about Philip Morris
planning on splitting off the food division after one of the big Tobacco
settlements a year ago.
My Favorite Post Cereal is Grapenuts. You know, the main ingredients
are gravel, sticks, and bark :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Philip Morris. One wonders how much ash gets incorporated into the stuff
these days.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. ------------------------------------------
Favoured
kids breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....) spread in Australia.
Now owned by Kraft, a US company.
Kraft is actually part of one of the big tabacco companies now.... but I
don't recall which one.
4:53 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
At 11:01 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote:
What is vegemite? I have never heard of it.
http://www.medianet.ca/curioso/bovril/bvrlinfo/vegemite/vegemite.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gene(a)ehrich.com
gehrich(a)tampabay.rr.com
P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365
http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale
2:05 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
Gene Ehrich wrote:
[Re: Nutella]
Now why do you like Vegemite as opposed to Marmite? HA.. This could start
an interesting flame was between the Aussies and Brits over which one is the
best.. ;)
If you are a chocolate lover you gotta try it.
Yep. Then again my tastes may be suspect. I'm probably one
of about six US-born individuals who actually _likes_ Vegemite.
On a related topic, does anyone know where I can get proper
mustard? I'm talking about traditionally hot, sinus-melting
English mustard. I have a friend who brings jars back from
Oz, but the supply is spotty at best...
It sounds like you are describing the mustard they serve in Chineses
restaurants... It has that exact same effect with *very* little eaten.
(And I like this type of stuff... I put lots of wasabi on my sushi for the
sinus cleansing, brain blasting effects...)
Cheers,
Bryan
2:49 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
Bryan Pope wrote:
Now why do you like Vegemite as opposed to Marmite?
Dunno -- just prefer the taste. Well, that and I've yet to see a _bucket_
of Marmite, whereas I've actually seen a bucket of Vegemite. It's an
awe-inspiring sight...
It sounds like you are describing the mustard they
serve in Chineses
restaurants... It has that exact same effect with *very* little eaten.
Nah. "Hot" Chinese mustard is positively wimpy next to the stuff I'm
talking about. The effect is much like the typical tablespoon-sized
dollops of wasabi (well, at least that's my typical per-piece dose --
YMMV), but it takes less to achieve the desired effect and
the taste is slightly different. Goes well with a slab of
rare moo just off the grill...
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
11:08 a.m.
New subject: Nutella
If you are a
chocolate lover you gotta try it.
Yep. Then again my tastes may be suspect. I'm probably one
of about six US-born individuals who actually _likes_ Vegemite.
8 Nov
8 Nov
8:42 a.m.
New subject: food
Roger Merchberger skrev:
Rumor has it that Iggy Drougge may have mentioned these
words:
>I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define
"foreign". Doesn't that
>require something "indigenous"? =)
Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by this...
Despite the last name
of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly
those who were here before the europeans arrived...
I did not mean to offend anyone.
American Indians, aboriginals, "red man",
however you want to put it -
there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with
the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American
Indian pow-wow.
I've never heard of Indian food, save for Mexican corn dishes.
>Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =)
At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh...
Nutella...
I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff...
*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from
Deutschland. I ask only
rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back
when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a
year...). :-(
You don't have Nutella? I thought it would go very well along with Without
Reason's favourite sandwiches.
Still, Nutella is at least supposed to be made of hazelnuts, it's not quite as
chemically derived as the sheets of chocolate which the Danes put on their
otherwise excellent sandwiches.
Find a way to get me a jar or two, and I'll forgive
that "indigenous"
remark...
Send me your snail address and I'll see what I can do.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
IRAQ, 10984 GHz, V
Getting TV from Iraq at all is kinda cool - you can get propaganda in English
at 1900 BST, and see the guy with the moustache almost any time. When they
show anime it's even cooler...
Geoff Cowie
10:15 a.m.
New subject: food
Merch lives in Sioux territory. I don't know what they eat, but I live in
Cherokee territory and they have all kinds of 'indiginous' foods that
would seem very ordinary on anyone's table really.
Native Americans were for the most part unaware of spices as europeans
know them so you might find things a bit bland but filling and wholesome.
Some things you don't often see but Cherokee eat often are Venison,
Buffalo, Aligator, Rabbit, snakes, frogs, and just about any bird large
enough to be worth cleaning.
If you haven't been to your local Indian reservation to dine, I strongly
reccomend you do. There are foods available there that you cannot buy
anywhere else either due to species protection laws or more likely, low
demand outside the reservations and hunting laws which restrict game like
deer etc to your own table and not for sale.
Regards,
Jeff
In <1847.712T300T14223649optimus(a)canit.se>se>, on 11/08/01
at 11:42 PM, "Iggy Drougge" <optimus(a)canit.se> said:
>American Indians, aboriginals, "red man",
however you want to put it -
>there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed
with
>the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American
>Indian pow-wow.
I've never heard of Indian food, save for Mexican
corn dishes.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
4:28 a.m.
New subject: food
UberTechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
Some things you don't often see but Cherokee eat
often are Venison,
Buffalo, Aligator, Rabbit, snakes, frogs, and just about any bird large
enough to be worth cleaning.
Some mighty fine eating here: http://www.realcajun.com/
Ben Franchuk
--
Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct.
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
4:04 p.m.
New subject: food
Jeff,
Where would they find gators?
UberTechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
Some things you don't often see but Cherokee eat
often are Venison,
Buffalo, Aligator, Rabbit, snakes, frogs, and just about any bird large
enough to be worth cleaning.
Must vary by states. I think one of our local chains had some venison
when I worked there in High School(10yrs ago). Buffalo is available
sometimes too, I think. Unless it is just Beefalo.
If you haven't been to your local Indian reservation to dine, I strongly
reccomend you do. There are foods available there that you cannot buy
anywhere else either due to species protection laws or more likely, low
demand outside the reservations and hunting laws which restrict game like
deer etc to your own table and not for sale.
Regards,
Jeff
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
9 Nov
9 Nov
3:50 a.m.
New subject: food
Where would they find gators?
Since the Cherokee were native to the American southeast, I would guess
they found them nearly everywhere there was water. The story of how they
got to where the reservations are is both tragic and one of the more shameful
portions of our national history.
Now, I would guess that they get alligator from farms. You can, too:
http://www.gatorama.com/ribs.htm was the first place that came up
on a Google search. You get get it for less elsewhere, though.
Eric
8 Nov
8 Nov
9:02 a.m.
New subject: food
At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson...
Oooohh... Nutella...
I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff...
*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only
rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back
when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a
year...). :-(
Have you tried a grocery store? It's pretty common around here.
Eric
3:46 p.m.
New subject: food
From what I hear, the Indians most likely crossed the
Bearing Straights
(spelling?), so your an immigrant too :-) We all came from
somewhere
else originally, whether you believe we came from Adam and Eve, or
monkeys.
My favorite Indian food is Corn Bread, yum yum, although, I suppose that
what my mother makes, probably isn't exactly what the Indians
made/make.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Roger Merchberger wrote:
Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by this...
Despite the last name
of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly
those who were here before the europeans arrived...
American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it -
there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with
the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American
Indian pow-wow.
9 Nov
9 Nov
2:32 a.m.
New subject: food
Don't discount the possibility that Adam and Eve may, in fact, have been
monkeys, or very nearly so.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Fernandez" <fernande(a)internet1.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: food
From what I hear, the Indians most likely crossed the
Bearing Straights
(spelling?), so your an immigrant too :-) We all came from somewhere
else originally, whether you believe we came from Adam and Eve, or
monkeys.
My favorite Indian food is Corn Bread, yum yum, although, I suppose that
what my mother makes, probably isn't exactly what the Indians
made/make.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Roger Merchberger wrote:
Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by
this... Despite the last name
of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly
those who were here before the europeans arrived...
American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it -
there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with
the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American
Indian pow-wow.
5:51 a.m.
New subject: food
Really? Fascinating. BTW, I've got some ocean front property in South
Dakota I can make you a great deal on.
g.
On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a
monkey.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Don't discount the possibility that Adam and Eve may, in fact, have been
monkeys, or very nearly so.
Dick
6:07 a.m.
New subject: food
At 01:55 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote:
Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a
monkey.
Adam who?
Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gene(a)ehrich.com
gehrich(a)tampabay.rr.com
P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365
http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale
7:52 a.m.
New subject: absurdity
At 12:50 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote:
Gene Ehrich wrote:
I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God.
First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments
demand an answer. Politics and religion should only be discussed on lists
with that allowed. But since it needs an answer:
More than half of the worlds population does not believe in a god.
Believing in one is certainly ones right but it is absurd. The highest form
of life in the universe is man.
Now lets drop the conversation or make it private.
Adam was made in God's own image, not that of
a monkey.
Adam who?
Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed.
6:52 a.m.
New subject: absurdity
Gene Ehrich wrote:
The highest form
of life in the universe is man.
Currently known that is. Who knows what the future may bring.
Man still has lots of faults that could get better over time.
While life is not rare it is unique and special everywhere.
Ben Franchuk.
--
Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct.
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
8:50 a.m.
New subject: absurdity
Gene Ehrich wrote:
At 12:50 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote:
They do not demand an answer; that was a *choice* YOU made, as did I. We
all have our beliefs and having expressed them, there is little that can
be added. Faith is an *individual* right and choice ... and I agree that
this discussion certainly does not belong on *this* listserver. Besides
being OT, it just leads to a fruitless (by definition) debate; one
either believes or they do not.
Gene Ehrich wrote:
I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God.
First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments
demand an answer. Adam was made in God's own image, not that of
a monkey.
Adam who?
Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed.
12:53 p.m.
New subject: absurdity
What I can't understand is that there are so many folks claiming to have
"faith"
yet who are always projecting their purported beliefs on others in search of
validation. If you don't have enough faith in what you profess to believe, then
work it out within yourself before you go bouncing it off others, who may have
their own issues to work out.
I can't believe there are people out there who don't know that God looks just
like a monkey.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Johnston" <marvin(a)rain.org>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: absurdity
Gene Ehrich wrote:
At 12:50 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote:
They do not demand an answer; that was a *choice* YOU made, as did I. We
all have our beliefs and having expressed them, there is little that can
be added. Faith is an *individual* right and choice ... and I agree that
this discussion certainly does not belong on *this* listserver. Besides
being OT, it just leads to a fruitless (by definition) debate; one
either believes or they do not.
Gene Ehrich wrote:
First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments
demand an answer.
>Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey.
Adam who?
Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed.
I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God.
10 Nov
10 Nov
1:03 a.m.
New subject: absurdity
At 04:52 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote:
More than half of the worlds population does not
believe in a god.
Believing in one is certainly ones right but it is absurd. The highest form
of life in the universe is man.
Could well be. That wouldn't deny existence of a God, though; surely,
God isn't alive in sense we could imagine.
As for man being the highest form of life... it remains to be
proven. So far it only qualifies as the lowest.
carlos.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
12:55 a.m.
New subject: OT again Re: food
At 12:50 PM 11/9/01 -0800, Marvin wrote:
Gene Ehrich wrote:
I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God.
I don't think that you can infer that he doesn't believe in god
Adam was made in God's own image, not that of
a monkey.
Adam who?
Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. from his non-belief in Adam an Eve. Unfortunately,
that's the
kind of logic that polarized religious debates usually fallback to.
"Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify
science from idolatry and false absolutes. Each can draw the other into a
wider
world in which both can flourish... Such bridging ministries must be nurtured
and encouraged." - Pope John Paul II.
carlos.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
9 Nov
9 Nov
6:23 a.m.
New subject: food
On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a
monkey.
I got curious and talked to two Christians about this once. They seemed
to have the idea that evolution may have been the process that their deity
utilized to create Adam and Eve.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
10 Nov
10 Nov
12:40 a.m.
New subject: food
At 01:55 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote:
Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a
monkey.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
So you have seen Him and you know that he doesn't look
like a monkey? (or should we start capitalizing Monkey now?) .
I'm not religious, but I know that if you try to interpret
any religious book letter by letter (bible, q'ran etc) you get in trouble
very soon; theology would not be the fun that it is.
carlos.
carlos.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
8 Nov
8 Nov
4:47 p.m.
New subject: food
At 04:45 PM 11/8/01 -0500, you wrote:
I get my Nutella here at Fred Meyer or several other local grocery stores..
(in washington)
Makes Nutella
seem like a wholesome product. =)
At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella...
I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff...
*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask
only rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring
some back when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice
a year...). :-(
11:19 p.m.
New subject: food
At 10:47 PM 11/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
I get my Nutella here at Fred Meyer or several other
local grocery
stores.. (in washington)
I just discovered Nutella a few months ago and its great. I read recently
that there is more Nutella sold in the world than all other peanut butter
type products combined.
I love it right out of the jar or on graham crackers.
9 Nov
9 Nov
2:42 a.m.
New subject: food
Try it on plain old toast. It's quite surprising how wide a range of products
"go" with Nutella.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ehrich" <gehrich(a)tampabay.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: food
At 10:47 PM 11/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
I get my Nutella here at Fred Meyer or several
other local grocery
stores.. (in washington)
I just discovered Nutella a few months ago and its great. I read recently
that there is more Nutella sold in the world than all other peanut butter
type products combined.
I love it right out of the jar or on graham crackers.
6 Nov
6 Nov
6:57 a.m.
On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
However, there's an easily observable basis for
the beliefs regarding
the Apple][ disk subsystem that I've put forth in this case, unlike
the erroneous conclusions that early 20th-century Americans had drawn
about diet.
In the Dick Erlacher World of Factually Erroneous and Frivelous Opinions,
perhaps. In the real world? Nein.
The Apple][ disk subsystem was made in order to offer
drives with a
capacity advantage over its competitor, the TRS-80 single-density
5-14" drives. I don't remember the details of the cost difference,
I think your timeline is in error here. I believe the Apple Disk ][ was
on the market before the TRS-80 disk drives. And at any rate, your
analysis is, again, wrong. Apple offered disk drives because it was a
good marketing move, and it just happened to store more data than Radio
Shack's because Woz's design was elegant, clever, and superior.
but the main advantage to Apple was in that they built
their own drive
electronics and cound benefit at the system level, cost-wise, from
every little thing they left out. First of all, they didn't have to
<the rest of Dick's spewage flushed>
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11:10 a.m.
see below, plz.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
You may well be right about the timing, but the timing isn't the point.
I'd
suggest you look in the old BYTE mag's (I've given all my useable ones away by
now) for the ads from Apparat, a Denver vendor of accessories for TRS-80 and
Apple systems. They were a client of mine and the FD subsystem they offered for
the TRS-80 was, as I recall, on the market at holiday time in 1979-'80. I'm
quite sure Apple had diskette drives out by then, since I got my own (8") drives
for my homebrew 6502 setup in '80.
That was my first contact with the TRS-80 after-market, but it seems to me that
the TRS-80 came out in '78 and was fully equipped (expansion interface, printer,
FDD's, modem, etc.) by holiday time of '79. Apparat also sold a replacement OS
for the TRS-80, which came out then. That will verify the times at which the Ap
ple FDD as well as the TRS-80 FDD became available. It's certainly possible I'm
off by a year.
However, the TRS-80 was, at whatever time they both had their FDD's available,
the only seriously competing system that Apple had to deal with because there
weren't any other single-supplier systems available, yet. At that point there
was no VIDEX board yet, either, IIRC. A year later things were completely
different because of the VIDEX board, the SVA FD interface, VISICALC, and a
number of other things. It was not my point, by the way, that Apple built their
drive as an answer to Tandy, but, rather, that they did the things they did in
order to save money on their floppy drive subsystem, because they were expensive
back then. They saved lots of dough with their tightly integrated
drive/controller arrangement since they not only used a really cheap set of
electronics, and quite a clever one, but didn't have to pay tens of bucks for a
then-still-very-costly FDC chip. That was a VERY big cost advantage, which, as
I wrote before, didn't show up as a price reduction that you'd notice.
As for the error rate, there were numerous assessments published over time, and
because their bit-error rate wasn't an entire order of magnitude higher, Apple
was able to brush it aside as "not even an order of magnitude" higher.
It's
been studied extensively and perhaps there are even better figures on it now
than there were back then. The fact that it provided effectively double-density
media capacity made it a reasonable tradeoff for the not-totally-professional
user. I'm not sure about what figures were developed regarding
disk-error-induced system crashes.
However, there's an easily observable basis
for the beliefs regarding
the Apple][ disk subsystem that I've put forth in this case, unlike
the erroneous conclusions that early 20th-century Americans had drawn
about diet.
In the Dick Erlacher World of Factually Erroneous and Frivelous Opinions,
perhaps. In the real world? Nein.
The Apple][ disk subsystem was made in order to
offer drives with a
capacity advantage over its competitor, the TRS-80 single-density
5-14" drives. I don't remember the details of the cost difference,
I think your timeline is in error here. I believe the Apple Disk ][ was
on the market before the TRS-80 disk drives. And at any rate, your
analysis is, again, wrong. Apple offered disk drives because it was a
good marketing move, and it just happened to store more data than Radio
Shack's because Woz's design was elegant, clever, and superior.
but the main advantage to Apple was in that they
built their own drive
electronics and cound benefit at the system level, cost-wise, from
every little thing they left out. First of all, they didn't have to
<the rest of Dick's spewage flushed>
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5 Nov
5 Nov
10:09 a.m.
Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance
and reliability haven't
improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use,
but rather for use by those who didn't value and trust computers enough to
make
the investment in one that warranted the value and trust. Oddly enough,
it was
less costly to use a much more reliable system with a larger installed
software
based, targeted at small business, yet, thanks to the Apple myths, people paid
15%-25% more with the idea that it would be easier to use, which, sadly, it
wasn't.
More below.
Dick
I agree with your first sentence, indeed the performance and reliability
haven't improved, but kindly explain how that is possible when you are
number ONE to start with. PC clones barely last a few years in the school
systems, five is OLD, ten years and its been lost in a warehouse. Working
15 year old Apple computers are routine in surplus, non working is actually
rare at any age without physical damage.
My personal experience with many many years of consulting supporting Apple
products has shown them with few exceptions to be the most reliable and
easiest to use machines. If somebody was foolish enough to buy the company
computer at Sears, and bought some Performa and tried to run their business
with the bundled lite versions of software, they have my sympathy.
Yes indeed the Apple GUI sadly has failed. It is merely conincidental that
all the PC users have paid a couple hundred bucks every two years to
attempt to copy it.
Nothing new on this topic, just wintel propaganda.
1:48 p.m.
see below, plz.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
It's only the Apple][ 5-1/4" disk subsystem that causes the problems.
The
software abuses them considerably and the approach to error handling is so
primitive that one who goes strictly by the manuals has no chance of recovering
>Well, I'd have to say that, since the
performance and reliability haven't
>improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious
use,
>but rather for use by those who didn't value and trust computers enough to
>make
>the investment in one that warranted the value and trust. Oddly enough,
>it was
>less costly to use a much more reliable system with a larger installed
>software
>based, targeted at small business, yet, thanks to the Apple myths, people
paid
15%-25% more
with the idea that it would be easier to use, which, sadly, it
wasn't.
More below.
Dick
I agree with your first sentence, indeed the performance and reliability
haven't improved, but kindly explain how that is possible when you are
number ONE to start with. PC clones barely last a few years in the school
systems, five is OLD, ten years and its been lost in a warehouse. Working
15 year old Apple computers are routine in surplus, non working is actually
rare at any age without physical damage.
from a single-bit error. Most of the Apple products
I've seen in the garbage
have been there because of failed FD systems. As I
said before, once they were
equipped with an 8" controller, not that the media size had much to do with it,
but with a standard controller, capable of employing standard time-worn
methodology to the problems of providing disk storage for a small computer, they
seemed to be quite solid. It's just that Apple][ disk subsystem that causes the
heartburn.
PC Clones last just as long in the schools as anywhere else where there are
people smart enough to use them. Kids can't be expected to learn how to use
computers when teachers can't. You can't force the teachers to be smart enough
when they have no time to get smart. Even if it's not the "real" case,
thats
how many of them preceive it, and that, combined with the vast number of
donations to the schools that Apple made in order to chum the market, easily
explains why teachers gravitate toward the Apple product. Once they have to buy
and maintain their own hardware, they quickly switch to PC's. Schools seem to
have a much easier time using clearly obsolete MAC's than equally obsolescent
PC's, but that's because they have to BUY the PC's, while they can get large
discounts on the PC's, with their suppliers relying on high volume in heavily
discounted sales of last year's MAC model to the teachers. It's possible
they've outgrown that, but buyers are still quite vulnerable to the appeal of
low price, even if what they end up with isn't as useful as something a little
more costly. That goes both ways, by the way.
My personal experience with many many years of consulting supporting Apple
products has shown them with few exceptions to be the most reliable and
easiest to use machines. If somebody was foolish enough to buy the company
computer at Sears, and bought some Performa and tried to run their business
with the bundled lite versions of software, they have my sympathy.
What's a Performa?
Yes indeed the Apple GUI sadly has failed. It is merely conincidental that
all the PC users have paid a couple hundred bucks every two years to
attempt to copy it.
Actually, both Apple and M$ have copied the same model, hence the similarity.
If Apple had any claim at all to the GUI, they'd not have lost in court.
No. Only the dumb ones pay that. The rest of the PC users simply use the old
version that still works fine. The rate at which new OS versions are promoted
will slow, now that the market has reached saturation, and it won't be so easy
for M$ to motivate people to buy new versions of the software that doesn't work
any better than the previous version.
Nothing new on this topic, just wintel propaganda.
30 Oct
30 Oct
4:08 p.m.
New subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
I've seen some unreliable disk drive interfaces in my time. Most notably
the ATR8000 and the Percom drives for Atari computers. They supported
everything but the data was only readable for about 15min.... Seriously
though, we ran the Tardis BBS in Miami, FL on an ATR8000 for more than a
year. Frequent backups were required.... I've tried using one off and on
as a main drive, and no matter how cool the ATR is, it can't store it's
own data in CP/M or as an Atari controller to save it's life.
As for the apple and atari drives, I have an experience I'll relate that
makes me GOGGLE at what I just read from RIchard.
A student while I was a student teacher in Jr high claimed that floppy
disks were so very fragile that he would throw away a good floppy after
dropping it on his desk just once. I opened two floppy disks, drew out
the platters, rubbed them vigorously with a pencil erasor, dusted them
off, inserted the platters 'naked' and read them. One into an Atari 810
and the other into an Apple Disk II drive. Both worked of course. Talk
about abuse!
I wouldn't reccomend this for data you want to read twenty years from the
day you wrote it, but the systems are that strong. I too have hundreds and
hundreds of Atari disks (90k to 720k) disks that are perfectly readable
ten or fifteen years later. What would I do without the "BIG demo"?
Regards,
Jeff
In <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8(a)idcomm.com>om>, on 10/30/01
at 08:18 PM, "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> said:
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
you said " ...
No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
EVER see the index pulse.
..."
I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to
have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the
means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability to see
them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone
might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the
point about which there seems to have been some confusion. and " ...
Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
..."
Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was
rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most
of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the
disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was.
I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since
the Apple system was
incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had
who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+,
drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I
moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a
conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven. His
business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to
do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune
juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of
his wife and kids.
Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old
6502 source files,
I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern
so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old
SVA controller ... <sigh> It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on as
well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ
did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders
of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional
systems.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Tue, 30 Oct
2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an
> index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point it waited
for
it,
> then proceeded, in which case the extra
holes in the index track (not a
magnetic
> > track) would have no impact.
>
> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
> EVER see the index pulse.
>
> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth
> > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
>
> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
>
> 
5:27 p.m.
New subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
I tried an interesting experiment once. I put a floppy disk
on the magnetic chuck of a surface grinder, a magnetic field
strong enough to hold a workpiece in place while grinding it,
and after cycling the power a few times, went to try to read
the disk. I expected it to be well erased, like using a bulk
tape eraser, but to my surprise, the disk read o.k. Perhaps
the disk needed to be moved around in the field more before
it would have been erased? But with the instructions on disks
saying to keep them away from magnetic fields, it sure surprised
the heck out of me because that was one pretty strong magnetic
field.
UberTechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
I've seen some unreliable disk drive interfaces in my time. Most notably
the ATR8000 and the Percom drives for Atari computers. They supported
everything but the data was only readable for about 15min.... Seriously
though, we ran the Tardis BBS in Miami, FL on an ATR8000 for more than a
year. Frequent backups were required.... I've tried using one off and on
as a main drive, and no matter how cool the ATR is, it can't store it's
own data in CP/M or as an Atari controller to save it's life.
As for the apple and atari drives, I have an experience I'll relate that
makes me GOGGLE at what I just read from RIchard.
A student while I was a student teacher in Jr high claimed that floppy
disks were so very fragile that he would throw away a good floppy after
dropping it on his desk just once. I opened two floppy disks, drew out
the platters, rubbed them vigorously with a pencil erasor, dusted them
off, inserted the platters 'naked' and read them. One into an Atari 810
and the other into an Apple Disk II drive. Both worked of course. Talk
about abuse!
I wouldn't reccomend this for data you want to read twenty years from the
day you wrote it, but the systems are that strong. I too have hundreds and
hundreds of Atari disks (90k to 720k) disks that are perfectly readable
ten or fifteen years later. What would I do without the "BIG demo"?
Regards,
Jeff
In <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8(a)idcomm.com>om>, on 10/30/01
at 08:18 PM, "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> said:
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
you said " ...
No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
EVER see the index pulse.
..."
I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to
have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the
means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability to see
them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone
might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the
point about which there seems to have been some confusion. and " ...
Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
..."
Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was
rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most
of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the
disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was.
I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems,
since the Apple system was
incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had
who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+,
drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I
moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a
conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven. His
business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to
do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune
juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of
his wife and kids.
Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving
old 6502 source files,
I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern
so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old
SVA controller ... <sigh> It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on as
well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ
did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders
of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional
systems.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Tue,
30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an
> index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point it waited
for
it,
> then proceeded, in which case the extra
holes in the index track (not a
magnetic
> > track) would have no impact.
>
> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
> EVER see the index pulse.
>
> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth
> > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
>
> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
>
> 
7:44 p.m.
New subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
On the other hand ..............
I have a very large permanent magnet from the
voicecoil assembly of a scrapped laundrymachine-sized
diskdrive (which I took apart 12 years ago!).
Whenever I have a tape that I need to reformat but
that refuses to do so, I'll leave it on the magnet for a few
hours and presto.... I will reformat afterwards!
Strong magnetic fields are never a good environment
for preserving data on magnetic media!
Sipke de Wal
--------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
--------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Koller <vze2mnvr(a)verizon.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>rg>; <UberTechnoid(a)home.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
I tried an interesting experiment once. I put a floppy disk
on the magnetic chuck of a surface grinder, a magnetic field
strong enough to hold a workpiece in place while grinding it,
and after cycling the power a few times, went to try to read
the disk. I expected it to be well erased, like using a bulk
tape eraser, but to my surprise, the disk read o.k. Perhaps
the disk needed to be moved around in the field more before
it would have been erased? But with the instructions on disks
saying to keep them away from magnetic fields, it sure surprised
the heck out of me because that was one pretty strong magnetic
field.
UberTechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
>
> I've seen some unreliable disk drive interfaces in my time. Most notably
> the ATR8000 and the Percom drives for Atari computers. They supported
> everything but the data was only readable for about 15min.... Seriously
> though, we ran the Tardis BBS in Miami, FL on an ATR8000 for more than a
> year. Frequent backups were required.... I've tried using one off and on
> as a main drive, and no matter how cool the ATR is, it can't store it's
> own data in CP/M or as an Atari controller to save it's life.
>
> As for the apple and atari drives, I have an experience I'll relate that
> makes me GOGGLE at what I just read from RIchard.
>
> A student while I was a student teacher in Jr high claimed that floppy
> disks were so very fragile that he would throw away a good floppy after
> dropping it on his desk just once. I opened two floppy disks, drew out
> the platters, rubbed them vigorously with a pencil erasor, dusted them
> off, inserted the platters 'naked' and read them. One into an Atari 810
> and the other into an Apple Disk II drive. Both worked of course. Talk
> about abuse!
>
> I wouldn't reccomend this for data you want to read twenty years from the
> day you wrote it, but the systems are that strong. I too have hundreds and
> hundreds of Atari disks (90k to 720k) disks that are perfectly readable
> ten or fifteen years later. What would I do without the "BIG demo"?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff
>
> In <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8(a)idcomm.com>om>, on 10/30/01
> at 08:18 PM, "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> said:
>
> >you said " ...
> >>
> >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
> >> EVER see the index pulse.
> >>
> >..."
> >I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to
> >have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the
> >means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability
to see
> >them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone
> >might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the
> >point about which there seems to have been some confusion.
>
> >and " ...
> >Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
> >..."
> >Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was
> >rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most
> >of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the
> >disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was.
>
> >I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system was
> >incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had
> >who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+,
> >drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I
> >moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a
> >conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven.
His
> >business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to
> >do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune
> >juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of
> >his wife and kids.
>
> >Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source files,
> >I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern
> >so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old
> >SVA controller ... <sigh> It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on
as
> >well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ
> >did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders
> >of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional
> >systems.
>
> >Dick
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM
> >Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
>
> >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> >> > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used
didn't look
for an
> >> > index pulse until, nominally, the
"right" time, at which point it
waited for
> >it,
> >> > then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not
a
> >magnetic
> >> > track) would have no impact.
> >>
> >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER
> >> EVER see the index pulse.
> >>
> >> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a
smooth
> >> > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
> >>
> >> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
> >>
> >>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jeffrey S. Worley
> Asheville, NC USA
> 828-6984887
> UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------
31 Oct
31 Oct
12:40 a.m.
New subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
Actually, you might find that an electromagnet works faster. Years ago, a
friend tossed his only copy of some sort of data that he'd produced onto an
Apple "graphics tablet." That bulk-erased it very nicely. I don't remember
the
details, but it apparently had a moving magnetic field that it sensed in some
way with the "pen" it used. ... Unfortunate way to learn about this, I guess,
but there's a message there for those wishing to "clean" their otherwise
unformattable diskettes.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sipke de Wal" <sipke(a)wxs.nl>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
a
On the other hand ..............
I have a very large permanent magnet from the
voicecoil assembly of a scrapped laundrymachine-sized
diskdrive (which I took apart 12 years ago!).
Whenever I have a tape that I need to reformat but
that refuses to do so, I'll leave it on the magnet for a few
hours and presto.... I will reformat afterwards!
Strong magnetic fields are never a good environment
for preserving data on magnetic media!
Sipke de Wal
--------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
--------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Koller <vze2mnvr(a)verizon.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>rg>; <UberTechnoid(a)home.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
>
>
> I tried an interesting experiment once. I put a floppy disk
> on the magnetic chuck of a surface grinder, a magnetic field
> strong enough to hold a workpiece in place while grinding it,
> and after cycling the power a few times, went to try to read
> the disk. I expected it to be well erased, like using a bulk
> tape eraser, but to my surprise, the disk read o.k. Perhaps
> the disk needed to be moved around in the field more before
> it would have been erased? But with the instructions on disks
> saying to keep them away from magnetic fields, it sure surprised
> the heck out of me because that was one pretty strong magnetic
> field.
>
>
>
>
> UberTechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
> >
> > I've seen some unreliable disk drive interfaces in my time. Most notably
> > the ATR8000 and the Percom drives for Atari computers. They supported
> > everything but the data was only readable for about 15min.... Seriously
> > though, we ran the Tardis BBS in Miami, FL on an ATR8000 for more than a
> > year. Frequent backups were required.... I've tried using one off and on
> > as a main drive, and no matter how cool the ATR is, it can't store
it's
> > own data in CP/M or as an Atari controller to save it's life.
> >
> > As for the apple and atari drives, I have an experience I'll relate that
> > makes me GOGGLE at what I just read from RIchard.
> >
> > A student while I was a student teacher in Jr high claimed that floppy
> > disks were so very fragile that he would throw away a good floppy after
> > dropping it on his desk just once. I opened two floppy disks, drew out
> > the platters, rubbed them vigorously with a pencil erasor, dusted them
> > off, inserted the platters 'naked' and read them. One into an Atari
810
> > and the other into an Apple Disk II drive. Both worked of course. Talk
> > about abuse!
> >
> > I wouldn't reccomend this for data you want to read twenty years from the
> > day you wrote it, but the systems are that strong. I too have hundreds and
> > hundreds of Atari disks (90k to 720k) disks that are perfectly readable
> > ten or fifteen years later. What would I do without the "BIG demo"?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > In <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8(a)idcomm.com>om>, on 10/30/01
> > at 08:18 PM, "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> said:
> >
> > >you said " ...
> > >>
> > >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to
EVER
> >>
EVER see the index pulse.
> >>
> >..."
> >I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to
> >have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the
> >means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability
to see
> >them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone
> >might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the
> >point about which there seems to have been some confusion.
>
> >and " ...
> >Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
> >..."
> >Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was
> >rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most
> >of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the
> >disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was.
>
> >I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system was
> >incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had
> >who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+,
> >drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I
> >moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a
> >conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven.
His
> >business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to
> >do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune
> >juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of
> >his wife and kids.
>
> >Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source files,
> >I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern
> >so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old
> >SVA controller ... <sigh> It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on
as
> >well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ
> >did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders
> >of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional
> >systems.
>
> >Dick
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM
> >Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
>
> >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> >> > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used
didn't look
for an
> >> > index pulse until, nominally,
the "right" time, at which point it
waited for
> > >it,
> > >> > then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track
(not > > >magnetic
> > >> > track) would have no impact.
> > >>
> > >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to
EVER
> > >> EVER see the index pulse.
> > >>
> > >> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a
smooth
> >>
> transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
> >>
> >> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . .
> >>
> >>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jeffrey S. Worley
> Asheville, NC USA
> 828-6984887
> UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------
1:34 a.m.
New subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
A "real" degausser is just an AC open
core transformer IIJC*.
John A
If I Judge Correctly
3:37 a.m.
New subject: Erasing diskettes (was: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
If you don't want to lose the content of a diskette, then it takes very
little (proximity to the ignition system of a car, graphics tablet,
flourescent ballast, clock motor, Earth's magnetic field, etc.)
If you are TRYING to erase a diskette, then almost nothing will do it
(surface grinder, speaker coil, the magnet that they lift cars with for
the crusher, etc.)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:38 a.m.
New subject: Erasing diskettes (was: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk)
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
If you don't want to lose the content of a
diskette, then it takes very
little (proximity to the ignition system of a car, graphics tablet,
flourescent ballast, clock motor, Earth's magnetic field, etc.)
If you are TRYING to erase a diskette, then almost nothing will do it
(surface grinder, speaker coil, the magnet that they lift cars with for
the crusher, etc.)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
A truly classic case of the innate perversity of inanimate objects!
- don
30 Oct
30 Oct
2:23 p.m.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
It's conceivable that the software that the
Apple][ used didn't look
for an index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at whic point
it waited for it, then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the
index track (not a magnetic track) would have no impact.
The Apple Disk ][ simply has no mechanism for even detecting the index
hole, so this is not even moot.
I'm having trouble parsing your paragraph so you may well be saying the
same thing.
The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby
allowing a smooth
transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
Yes.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
2:49 p.m.
Yeah ... what I intended the reader to take from this is that since it's
entirely up to the software to determine what, if anything, is done with
information gained, or not, from the index/sector holes in a diskette, a system
that can ignore them as the Apple does, or one that looks only when they're
nominally supposed to occur, doesn't care whether the media is intended to be
used soft or hard sectored.
8" drives with the "hard-sector-option" installed have jumpers to open a
window
in time, typically with one-shots, to allow the detection or suppression of
sector holes into 8, 16, or 32 sectors per revolution, even though the media has
32 sector holes and a single index hole, all on one track. That's the same
strategy applied in hardware. If you don't really care about where the
information is located on the medium, it doesn't matter whether you open a
window at all, since you're not going to look for it. Instead, you can paint
your own window wherever you like, and use that.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
It's conceivable that the software that the
Apple][ used didn't look
for an index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point
it waited for it, then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the
index track (not a magnetic track) would have no impact.
The Apple Disk ][ simply has no mechanism for even detecting the index
hole, so this is not even moot.
I'm having trouble parsing your paragraph so you may well be saying the
same thing.
The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored,
thereby allowing a smooth
transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign.
Yes.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
31 Oct
31 Oct
7:01 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 1012 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011031/a964f2db/at…
8:16 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
The disk II has no track 0 sensor either, hence the
clatter against
the end stop when the machine is turned on. This, in my experience,
doesn't help keep the heads in alignment....
I don't think I've ever had any Apple disk drive of mine go out of
alignment.
The Apple ][ disk system has always struck me as being
a cheap kludge.
Exactly. It was cheap, it was fast (if the DOS was designed properly), it
worked, and it worked well. Very well.
We've had this flame before, but my views have not
changed. Sure, it
was minimal hardware. Sure it got more data on a disk than an FM
controller (but less IIRC than an MFM one). But I like to be able to
read that data back again, and I had nothing but trouble with the
Apple ][.
You and Richard should start a support group for each other.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
8:47 a.m.
While I always liked the 6502, and while I admired the Apple people's
inclination to use software to do what others did with hardware, I never liked
the fact that they (Apple) were always happy to compromise on both performance
and reliability, even on much more recent hardware, e.g. the early MAC's, in
order to make money. They routinely left out lostf of hardware, using firmware
or software to replace it, resulting in lower CPU throughput, yet charged more
than their competitors who put the hardware "in there" and delivered the
performance. What's really odd is that their customers were so devoted, if not
sensible, that they bought the stuff anyway. My position was vindicated when,
at a BIG company where I once worked, I put a PC/AT-clone, a NIC (they were
expensive then), an HP LaserJet printer, and a graphics card with a companion
high-res monitor together for considerably le$$ than just a MAC-comaptible
printer would have cost. By having the IT guys work out a route from the MACs
to the PC/AT, we were all able to share that printer, though the Apple
networking hardware/software made it non-trivial. They liked to use the latest
greatest hardware at Apple, but they quickly turned the silk purse into a sow's
ear with their practice of giving away 90% of performance and convenience in
order to save 1% in cost. When they were done, they charged for the silk purse,
you can be sure, but still delivered the sow's ear.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
The disk II has no track 0 sensor either, hence
the clatter against
the end stop when the machine is turned on. This, in my experience,
doesn't help keep the heads in alignment....
I don't think I've ever had any Apple disk drive of mine go out of
alignment.
The Apple ][ disk system has always struck me as
being a cheap kludge.
Exactly. It was cheap, it was fast (if the DOS was designed properly), it
worked, and it worked well. Very well.
We've had this flame before, but my views
have not changed. Sure, it
was minimal hardware. Sure it got more data on a disk than an FM
controller (but less IIRC than an MFM one). But I like to be able to
read that data back again, and I had nothing but trouble with the
Apple ][.
You and Richard should start a support group for each other.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
9:38 a.m.
While I always liked the 6502, and while I admired the
Apple people's
inclination to use software to do what others did with hardware, I never liked
the fact that they (Apple) were always happy to compromise on both performance
and reliability, even on much more recent hardware, e.g. the early MAC's, in
order to make money. They routinely left out lostf of hardware,
using firmware
or software to replace it, resulting in lower CPU throughput, yet charged more
than their competitors who put the hardware "in there" and delivered the
performance.
I can appreciate a good minimalistic approach to something
and I used to look at the compact Macs as little more than expensive
toys, but Apple has shown on numerous occasions that it isn't afraid
to go out on a limb in order to push the technology further. They've
had, and continue to have, some revolutionary ideas but at the same
time they've also had their share of huge flops. Macs in the
mid-90's were horrendous in a lot of respects, which is why the
company nearly went under. It was being run for the sake of the
almighty $$$ return, as you already mentioned. Now it's to the point
where everyone expects Jobs to introduce something huge at each Mac
Expo. Few companies have managed the turn around Apple did, much
less tech. companies. They go by a totally different set of rules
and ideas than the machine assemblers such as Dell and Gateway. As
for performance, there's more to it than just the clock speed
numbers. There's not been a thing yet I've tossed at this G3/450
that it couldn't do, including all the emulation of various machines
I like to try.
BTW, on a different note, I've finally finished rebuilding my
Amiga 3000! It's even on our LAN and working great!
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
10:44 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
They liked to use the latest greatest hardware at
Apple, but they
quickly turned the silk purse into a sow's ear with their practice of
giving away 90% of performance and convenience in order to save 1% in
cost. When they were done, they charged for the silk purse, you can
be sure, but still delivered the sow's ear.
Apparently there was some value in what they sold because people bought
it, and Apple is still around (they're hanging on, thanks to Jobs...love
him or hate him, he saved the company).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
2:30 p.m.
You can't take anything away from their imagination, but they always applied
more effort to selling (getting your money) than to producing (providing you
value).
That may not be the case any longer, but since I don't know anyone who's using
Apple products any more, I probably won't hear what's up. Things may be
different in a year or two.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
They liked to use the latest greatest hardware at
Apple, but they
quickly turned the silk purse into a sow's ear with their practice of
giving away 90% of performance and convenience in order to save 1% in
cost. When they were done, they charged for the silk purse, you can
be sure, but still delivered the sow's ear.
Apparently there was some value in what they sold because people bought
it, and Apple is still around (they're hanging on, thanks to Jobs...love
him or hate him, he saved the company).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
1 Nov
1 Nov
7:44 a.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
Apparently there was some value in what they sold
because people bought
it, and Apple is still around (they're hanging on, thanks to Jobs...love
him or hate him, he saved the company).
I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the
direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great
success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous
damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so
doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal
companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the
person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people
for a fickle consumer user base.
9:35 a.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
On 01-Nov-2001 Mike Ford wrote:
I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the
company in the
direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great
success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else,
Caused USB to finaly be used? Created firewire? And I covet one of those
quiet G3 cubes.
-Philip
9:53 a.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote:
I think one thing is for certain: if it wasn't for Jobs, Apple by now
would probably have been a bitter memory.
My advice: don't count Apple out yet. If I had money I'd invest in their
stock.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Apparently
there was some value in what they sold because people bought
it, and Apple is still around (they're hanging on, thanks to Jobs...love
him or hate him, he saved the company).
I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the
direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great
success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous
damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so
doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal
companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the
person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people
for a fickle consumer user base.
10:08 a.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
My advice: don't count Apple out yet. If I had
money I'd invest in their
stock.
I said the exact same thing in September of 1996. I was a sophomore at UW
at that time, with about $6 to my name. It would've bought me one share...
I should've done it. (:
ok
r.
4:28 p.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote:
On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Probably couldn't have any way. You are forgetting the brokerage fee!
- don
My advice: don't count Apple out yet. If I
had money I'd invest in their
stock.
I said the exact same thing in September of 1996. I was a sophomore at UW
at that time, with about $6 to my name. It would've bought me one share...
I should've done it. (: ok
r.
4:40 p.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
I think that
is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the
direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great
success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous
damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so
doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal
companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the
person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people
for a fickle consumer user base.
I think one thing is for certain: if it wasn't for Jobs, Apple by now
would probably have been a bitter memory.
My advice: don't count Apple out yet. If I had money I'd invest in their
stock.
12:34 p.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the
company in the
direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great
success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous
damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so
doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal
companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the
person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people
for a fickle consumer user base.
Actually, I think killing the clones was a *good* idea. They would have
simply marginalised Apple the way all the Palm clones are now gobbling
Palm. Rather than increasing market share for all Mac-like things, it was
merely subdividing the market so that *no* company could survive. But to
be honest I did lust after one of those multiprocessor Daystars :-)
Besides, I'm seeing Apples in stores that would never have touched them
before. There's even some Mac stuff in Circuit City, and plenty in CompUSA.
And those Quicksilver G4s are pretty bloody sweet.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ----------------
12:58 p.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
Keeping a proprietary NonOpen HW+SW bundle going past
the 1990's? Magical! And, in the private sector no less.
John A.
Even IBM was going full Open back in 1994.
1:21 p.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
see below, plz.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cameron Kaiser" <spectre(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: OT Steve Jobs rant
Jobs' motives are simply to kill the clones so he can charge 50x his cost
instead of 4x like most makers. I remember all the traffic about whether to
sell the original MAC for $995 or $2995 ... Apple'd have made plenty at $995,
and, if they'd been half as good as the fanatics say, they'd have had the PC
market all to themselves.
I think that
is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the
direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great
success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous
damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so
doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal
companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the
person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people
for a fickle consumer user base.
Actually, I think killing the clones was a *good* idea. They would have
simply marginalised Apple the way all the Palm clones are now gobbling
Palm. Rather than increasing market share for all Mac-like things, it was
merely subdividing the market so that *no* company could survive. But to
be honest I did lust after one of those multiprocessor Daystars :-)
Besides, I'm seeing Apples in stores that would never have touched them
before. There's even some Mac stuff in Circuit City, and plenty in CompUSA.
And those Quicksilver G4s are pretty bloody sweet.
In the thrift stores here in Denver, you can get almost any Apple product that
shows up, and there have been some pretty powerful ones, for about what a PC
hard disk costs. Clearly, some people hold them in higher esteem than others.
--
----------------------------- personal page:
http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University *
ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with
everything."
----------------
5:10 p.m.
New subject: OT Steve Jobs rant
Actually, I think killing the clones was a *good* idea.
They would have
simply marginalised Apple the way all the Palm clones are now gobbling
Apple lost the talents, imagination, and production capability of Umax,
Power Computing, Motorola, Daystar, and somebody else I forget, maybe
Radius, and thats just the hardware side. Losses of software people was
long term just as bad.
Apple just isn't interesting to me anymore.
31 Oct
31 Oct
8:51 a.m.
The Rana1000 disk drive made for Apple and Atari 8bits also had no track
zero sensor. It used a simple timeing scheme to ensure the head HAS to be
at track zero by now..... The knocked themselves out of alignment
constantly.
I think Commodore 8-bit drives like the 1541 also had no zero sensor
right?
The Atari 8-bit drives all had them that I can recall, Percom, Indus,
Trak, etc.
Regards,
Jeff
In <Pine.LNX.4.10.10110311415030.32142-100000(a)siconic.com>om>, on 10/31/01
at 02:16 PM, Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> said:
> The disk II has no track 0 sensor either, hence
the clatter against
> the end stop when the machine is turned on. This, in my experience,
> doesn't help keep the heads in alignment....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
9:21 a.m.
The Atari 8-bit drives all had them that I can recall,
Percom, Indus,
Trak, etc.
The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for other
machines than just the Atari line. It was interesting to sit there
and listen to it while watching the track readout change. I've never
torn one apart to check but I'm told that they used a Z80 in the
drive to control everything which would be interesting since that'd
make the chip in the drive as powerful as the main CPU of the machine
it was attached to.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
11:33 a.m.
New subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk
In <f05001900b806377d63da(a)[64.157.58.17]>7]>, on 10/31/01
at 06:21 PM, Jeff Hellige <jhellige(a)earthlink.net> said:
The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for
other machines
than just the Atari line. It was interesting to sit there and listen to
it while watching the track readout change. I've never torn one apart
to check but I'm told that they used a Z80 in the drive to control
everything which would be interesting since that'd make the chip in the
drive as powerful as the main CPU of the machine it was attached to.
Either you knew something about this allready and forgot or are just darn
smart.
The Indus GT disk drive was made for; of course the Atari8bit, and I think
the Apple II and C64 machines.
The same company that made the Indus is the company that made the
Rana1000. I know this because the drives are allmost identical including
the shells. Rana Systems became Indus which later became Future Systems.
The Indus GT had a non-standard, belt-driven 1/2 height mechanism.
Allmost all the electronics driving the mech were located on the Indus
controller board mounted beneath. The controller had it's OWN Z-80
processor and some ram. I think something like 2k. You could add a 64k
CP/M adapter card to a pinedge connector on the controller. I never saw
this board in person, but that it existed at least in proto form is
certain. Later Indus and Future systems GT's omitted the cp/m board
connector but the pads were still there. There was quite a bit of talk
about it back in the day. An Indus owner could get CP/M without having to
buy an ATR8000 to do it. I think the Indus CP/M module was going to cost
something like $149.00 - $199.00 vs a 64k ATR8000 at $400.00 plus.
A couple of things about this drive that would have made it a pretty poor
performer as a CP/M machine:
The mech was non-standard, single-sided, MFM/FM meaning that disk
interchangability would be interesting ( it allways was anyway right guys
). Unless the CP/M card also extended the drive's ability to use standard
mechs as slaves then it wouldn't really be able to compete with the ATR or
that other similar CP/M interface for the Atari.
I've owned several Indus and Rana drives. The Rana wasn't too reliable
due to alignment problems (no trk0 sensor) and because it just had trouble
reading it's own data even on a good day. The Indus GT had a track 0
sensor but had similar trouble reading it's own data.
Frankly, I think the Atari 810, and 1050 were the only bulletproof drives
made for the Atari 8 bits. I've owned four or five ATR8000's, two Percom
double-density drives, three Rana 1000's, three Indus GT's, several 810's,
several 1050's, and a couple of XF551's. After years of dinking with
hopes of reliable storage from the third-party drives, I archived all my
disks using my USDoubler 1050. I never filed a disk in it's box that was
formatted or written with any other drive because I couldn't trust them.
I ran my bbs on the ATR and/or the Percom with four 80trk DS/DD mechs
because I didn't have any other mass storage solution to do it on. Most
Atari software is on SS/SD disks anyway so the 1050 could do the job
without a problem. BTW, the XF551 wasn't much better than the Percom or
the ATR for reliable data retreival.
Come to think, why is this? Why is it so hard to make a reliable disk
drive? My Percom with a new rom/daugtercard from the company and new
Newtronics mechs just sucked. The 1050 with the USDoubler, the
SuperArchiver, and the Happy enhancements was allways bulletproof and the
competition couldn't do that.
I haven't been able to test the 815, that other ATR8000-like cp/m
controller, or the Trak.
The only third-party Controller worth it's salt I've owned (and still do)
is Bob Puff's FloppyBoard for the Black Box. It is the end-all-be-all
enhancement for the Atari 8-bit and is just as reliable as a 1050 while
being able to use 3.5" high-density mechs. Course anything Bob made or
sold was awesome. Ironicly, I use the same mechs on the Floppy Board I
used to use on my ATR and Percom so it sure wasn't the mechs.
Regards,
Jeff
P.S. If you are wondering why I've had so many drives. It isn't because
they died or anything, I often traded Atari gear back then and aquired
systems retired by other folks as well.
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
12:44 p.m.
New subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk
The Percom AT-series drives used a 6809 CPU if anyone was interested. I
allways wondered about an OS/9 card for it.... <G>
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
1:01 p.m.
New subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk
Either you knew something about this allready and
forgot or are just darn
smart.
Years ago I had heard rumors of their being a way of running
CP/M on the drive itself with the onboard Z80 but I was never able to
get any concrete infomation on it and I never bothered to open one of
them up, since both of mine do work, to verify that they had a Z80 as
part of the controller.
The Indus GT disk drive was made for; of course the
Atari8bit, and I think
the Apple II and C64 machines.
Yes, those are the platforms that I recall seeing them for.
From the outside, they appeared identical to me other than the I/O
connectors.
Rana Systems became Indus which later became Future
Systems.
I didn't know that Rana and Indus were one and the same.
The Indus GT had a non-standard, belt-driven 1/2 height
mechanism.
Allmost all the electronics driving the mech were located on the Indus
controller board mounted beneath. The controller had it's OWN Z-80
processor and some ram. I think something like 2k. You could add a 64k
CP/M adapter card to a pinedge connector on the controller. I never saw
this board in person, but that it existed at least in proto form is
certain. Later Indus and Future systems GT's omitted the cp/m board
connector but the pads were still there. There was quite a bit of talk
about it back in the day. An Indus owner could get CP/M without having to
buy an ATR8000 to do it. I think the Indus CP/M module was going to cost
something like $149.00 - $199.00 vs a 64k ATR8000 at $400.00 plus.
That's pretty cool. Regardless of just how well it worked,
it'd be interesting to see it done at least once. I wonder if the
console I/O was directed to the screen I/O of the Atari 8bit?
Frankly, I think the Atari 810, and 1050 were the only
bulletproof drives
made for the Atari 8 bits.
The 810 I like, especially with the additional speed of the
Happy upgrade. Without it, the 810 certainly is a slow and noisy
beast! The 1050 I've never been a big fan of, though none of mine
ever got upgraded to true DD.
The only third-party Controller worth it's salt
I've owned (and still do)
is Bob Puff's FloppyBoard for the Black Box. It is the end-all-be-all
enhancement for the Atari 8-bit and is just as reliable as a 1050 while
being able to use 3.5" high-density mechs. Course anything Bob made or
sold was awesome.
Does Bob still do anything? Other than in conversations
about his older stuff, I've not heard his name mentioned in a while.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
1 Nov
1 Nov
9:09 a.m.
New subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk
I didn't know that Rana and Indus were one and the
same.
If they aren't then I'm an idiot. The Rana cover fits the indus like a
glove and vice-versa. They are so similar it isn't possible for two
different companies to have made them unless it was the same engineering
team. I know for sure that Indus became Future, but it was surmise that
Rana became Indus.
That's pretty cool. Regardless of just how well
it worked, it'd be
interesting to see it done at least once. I wonder if the console I/O
was directed to the screen I/O of the Atari 8bit?
The console was intended to be the Atari using a Bit3 font ala the ATR's
ADM3a Atari terminal emulator software. The ATR didn't need an atari, it
could use a serial terminal, but I've never hooked one to my ATR's to find
out. There was a special cable to use the SIO jacks on the ATR connected
to a serial dumb terminal. Otherwise you had to use the only other serial
port on the thing and lose the ability to run a modem.
The 810 I like, especially with the additional speed
of the Happy
upgrade. Without it, the 810 certainly is a slow and noisy beast! The
1050 I've never been a big fan of, though none of mine ever got upgraded
to true DD.
The 1050 was an even better drive than the 810. Quieter, just as
bulletproof, and faster because of onboard data separator etc. It also
used a modified MFM scheme to store more data while still using 128byte
sectors called 'Enhanced Density'. ED was a 26spt scheme no one really
liked much. Really the drive was a Double Density drive lobotomized to
save a couple bucks in onboard RAM. ICD produced the US Doubler which was
a Rom with a ram replacement. Very easy to install and the drive was
instantly a true DD machine. Reliability was NOT compromised at all. My
prize 1050 has the SuperArchiver II with Bitwriter installed. This
doesn't affect reliability either! It will copy a paper plate if you want
it to.....
For those not in the know, the Sarchiver is a hardware option that will
copy just about any copy protected disk out there. Duplicate sectors,
Long sectors, Short sectors, Phantom sectors, fuzzy sectors, duplicate
tracks, long tracks...... It could also vary the drive's rotation speed to
aid it in reading/writing these sectors.
The BITWRITER hardware option comes in when all else fails and is
generally used to copy only those portions of the disk that other methods
could not. The Bitwriter does an analogue bit-for-bit copy. Because it
is analogue, whole disk copies using this method may not allways work.
Does Bob still do anything? Other than in
conversations
about his older stuff, I've not heard his name mentioned in a while.
I spoke with him a few months ago. The CSS bbs was still up and running
and Black Box's, SuperEburner, and other products were still available.
Rtime8's are getting scarce as are some other gear. MIO can't be had for
love or money, but the Black Box has more features by far. The only thing
the MIO had that wasn't in the BB was RAM. That 1mb external ramdisk was
pretty cool.... But my xe's have 512k ramdisks anyway so I don't miss it.
I ran a modified Carina II bbs system off that ramdisk for years. All the
modules in ram made it alot faster. Data went to hard disk.
CSS (Computer Software Services) is now known as New Life Electronics
(http://www.nleaudio.com). Bob has allways made hifi stuff. A catalogue,
information, docs, source, and other such is on the site. To this day Bob
is STILL an Atari hacker. Something of a god he is to me.
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
10:13 a.m.
New subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk
The console was intended to be the Atari using a Bit3
font ala the ATR's
ADM3a Atari terminal emulator software. The ATR didn't need an atari, it
could use a serial terminal, but I've never hooked one to my ATR's to find
out. There was a special cable to use the SIO jacks on the ATR connected
to a serial dumb terminal. Otherwise you had to use the only other serial
port on the thing and lose the ability to run a modem.
I've always wanted one of the ATR's but haven't come across
one at all. That's pretty interesting though. Most of my Atari 8bit
time is spent on the 800 and it's decidedly more stock than yours,
the main enhancements being the two Indus GT drives, the Happy 810,
and a Bit-3 Full-view 80 video card. I used to hang a 1050 interface
or a 1030 modem off of it occasionally as well.
The 1050 was an even better drive than the 810.
Quieter, just as
bulletproof, and faster because of onboard data separator etc. It also
used a modified MFM scheme to store more data while still using 128byte
sectors called 'Enhanced Density'. ED was a 26spt scheme no one really
liked much.
There is the reason I never really got into using the 1050
that much. I only picked one up much later. People I knew didn't
like them at all either. Since the Indus GT's are DD and have never
given me any trouble I stuck with them. Both are certainly better
than the 810's 90k cap, but there's a big difference between the
1050's 127k ED and the GT's 180k DD. Plus, without 3rd party
enhancements the 1050 had the same slow data transfer rate as the
810. The Happy upgrade nearly tripled the rate. I'm not sure what
the data transfer rate of the GT's were using DOS XL with syncromesh
turned on.
I ran a modified Carina II bbs system off that ramdisk
for years. All the
modules in ram made it alot faster. Data went to hard disk.
That's cool...I didn't run my own BBS until later when I put
it on an XT using QuickBBS. A friend of mine ran a board off of a
PCjr using FIDO and the single floppy drive and a 300bps modem.
Needless to say, it was pretty much for messages only.
CSS (Computer Software Services) is now known as New
Life Electronics
(http://www.nleaudio.com). Bob has allways made hifi stuff. A catalogue,
information, docs, source, and other such is on the site. To this day Bob
is STILL an Atari hacker. Something of a god he is to me.
Looks like he's not updated the site in a while. It's good
to know he's still out there though. It seems all of these
communities have a couple of people that have been elevated to
near-god status.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
11:12 a.m.
New subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk
In <f05001900b80791692a27(a)[209.244.213.60]>0]>, on 11/01/01
at 07:13 PM, Jeff Hellige <jhellige(a)earthlink.net> said:
Plus, without 3rd party
enhancements the 1050 had the same slow data transfer rate as the 810.
The Happy upgrade nearly tripled the rate. I'm not sure what the data
transfer rate of the GT's were using DOS XL with syncromesh turned on.
The 1050 was a twitch faster but the US Doubler turned it into a rock of a
double density drive and provided the boost from 19.2kbps to 54.4kbps.
I've seen ads for a 108kbps upgrade in Europe but Bob P told me the
timeing would be twitchy in the US.
All the other 1050 update rom/ram jobs were good. I never used an 810 for
much though. I got into the Atari when the 1200xl was released. That was
my first 'real' computer. The maligned orphan 1200xl happened to be the
best 8-bit machine Atari ever made. I've got one still and have done the
800xl rom mod, and the internal basic mod. On this particular one I tried
Bob Wooley's 1200xl PBI mod. ALLL THOSE CONNECTIONS. I double checked,
rechecked etc. I even redid the mod completely with a new set of chips and
cable. Nothing. Not 'no video'. The machine works perfectly when
connected to my Black Box or not. It just doesn't SEE the Black Box.
I haven't seen any updates to the 1200xl PBI mod and I don't think it
quite works. I think the PBI is not being selected or something. One
more line and it would work I swear....
Anawho the machine still works fine so I left the mod installed. There
are something like 40 wire connections you have to make on different sides
of the motherboard plus a rom change/upgrade. I'd trash my xe in a second
if I could make that 1200xl and it's beautiful keyboard work with a hard
disk.
That's cool...I didn't run my own BBS until
later when I put it on an
XT using QuickBBS. A friend of mine ran a board off of a PCjr using
FIDO and the single floppy drive and a 300bps modem. Needless to say, it
was pretty much for messages only.
Early I ran Kenny Sallot's (The Timelord) TARDIS bbs in 83' or so. We
shared an apartment. At first it was on my Percoms then on the ATR, then
on a 1mb MIO and a 20mb Xebec hdd with an Adaptec ACB400a controller.
The guy was a big, hamfisted, gifted programmer. He wrote the code for
the Tardis himself on a modified AMIS. Useing Basic XE and the extra 64k
in the 130xe? Most sane people used it as a ramdisk. Not Kenny.
He wrote it so that modules and menus were stored in a single 64k string
and used a lookup routine because it was a little bit faster and used less
memory than a ramdisk driver. Gross huh? This guy could fit an elephant in
a vw microbus. The name of the software (TDXE) stood for Technical
Difficulties bbs XE. He got a ton of traffic and the board actually ran
pretty well.
>CSS (Computer Software Services) is now known as
New Life Electronics
>(http://www.nleaudio.com). Bob has allways made hifi stuff. A catalogue,
>information, docs, source, and other such is on the site. To this day Bob
>is STILL an Atari hacker. Something of a god he is to me.
Looks like he's not updated the site in a while.
It's good to know
he's still out there though. It seems all of these communities have a
couple of people that have been elevated to near-god status.
Bob Puff, Bob Wooley, and Claus Buckholtz. I'd like to erect a trio of
statues 300 feet high and made of bronze in Gorky Park.
I mean we won. Didn't we?.....
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
31 Oct
31 Oct
11:44 a.m.
The Atari 8-bit
drives all had them that I can recall, Percom, Indus,
Trak, etc.
The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for other
machines than just the Atari line.
12:17 p.m.
The Indus GT
was one nice drive and they made it for other
machines than just the Atari line.
I have one for my C64 and it's a nice, quiet and slick-looking disk drive.
It can really heat up, though. :-/
12:40 p.m.
I don't know for sure, but I'd bet a dollar it is for an unreleased sheet
feeder.
Regards,
Jeff
BTW, since we're on the topic of Atari 8bit
items...does
anyone know what the RJ45-type connector on the rear of the Atari XDM121
printer is used for? The power and SIO connectors are pretty obvious,
but I've never known what the other connector is for.
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
1 Nov
1 Nov
1:56 a.m.
Jeff Hellige skrev:
The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for
other
machines than just the Atari line. It was interesting to sit there
and listen to it while watching the track readout change. I've never
torn one apart to check but I'm told that they used a Z80 in the
drive to control everything which would be interesting since that'd
make the chip in the drive as powerful as the main CPU of the machine
it was attached to.
One example of a drive with as much CPU power as the host computer is the
Commodore 1541 and similar drives. DOS? The DOS is running on the drive, not
the computer. =)
I've even seen demos which used the drive's processor as an extra CPU. The
graphics would slow down during disk access.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
MUSIK G?R MAN AV PLAST OCH KISEL!
TR?D ANV?NDER MAN TILL M?BLER!
8:51 a.m.
New subject: OT: IE 5.5 SP2 "Always ask before opening this type of file" is
Hi,
I need it enabled again. Long google search met w/ little success.
I prefer to download stuff at my choosing to different folders when
downloading stuff. zip, exe, everything.
Now I see why many curse the MS's stuff and this IE
colorfully referred as IExploder! :-)
Is there's reliable web brower aka (IE) but likes of Nutscape (4.72)
that doesn't blow up at every turn?
I'll try the kmeleon based on 0.9.5 mozilla. Amazingingly tiny.
Cheers,
Wizard
31 Oct
31 Oct
6:54 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 444 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011031/04bf1cda/at…
30 Oct
30 Oct
8:20 a.m.
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 393 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/bb2fc83b/at…
8206
days inactive
8223
days old
180 comments
40 participants
participants (40)
-
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bpope＠wordstock.com -
cbajpai＠mediaone.net -
chris＠mainecoon.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmurillo＠emtelsa.multi.net.co -
Diff＠Mac.com -
donm＠cts.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
fernande＠internet1.net -
foo＠siconic.com -
gehrich＠tampabay.rr.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au -
gwynp＠artware.qc.ca -
hansp＠aconit.org -
jdonogh1＠prodigy.net -
jhellige＠earthlink.net -
john_boffemmyer_iv＠boff-net.dhs.org -
jpero＠sympatico.ca -
jss＠subatomix.com -
korpela＠ssl.berkeley.edu -
lgwalker＠mts.net -
marvin＠rain.org -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
optimus＠canit.se -
red＠bears.org -
rhblakeman＠kih.net -
sipke＠wxs.nl -
spc＠conman.org -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
UberTechnoid＠home.com -
vance＠ikickass.org -
vze2mnvr＠verizon.net -
vze2wsvr＠verizon.net -
zmerch＠30below.com