31 Oct
2021
31 Oct
'21
9:57 a.m.
I'm working with the developer of the Applesauce disk imaging tool in
order to iron out some issues with 8" disk support.
I'm using a Qumetrak 842 disk drive that's got support for both double and
single-sided media. This means that it's equipped with two index hole
sensors, slightly offset from one another. It's my understanding that
single-sided media has the index hole in one spot on the jacket, and
double-sided media has one in a slightly different location.
The issue at hand is some NIB Dysan double-sided 8" media I have - the
disks have index holes in the jacket in both locations. Is this typical,
or do I have some weird "special" disks on my hands? The Applesauce
author posits that the combination of the dual-sensor drive and the
dual-hole media wouldn't typically find themselves together. Is this
accurate? If it's not, how would a system contemporary with the media
have handled the two index holes?
Thanks!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
31 Oct
31 Oct
10:27 a.m.
On 10/31/21 9:57 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
I'm working with the developer of the Applesauce disk imaging tool in
order to iron out some issues with 8" disk support.
I'm using a Qumetrak 842 disk drive that's got support for both double
and single-sided media.? This means that it's equipped with two index
hole sensors, slightly offset from one another.? It's my understanding
that single-sided media has the index hole in one spot on the jacket,
and double-sided media has one in a slightly different location.
The issue at hand is some NIB Dysan double-sided 8" media I have - the
disks have index holes in the jacket in both locations.? Is this
typical, or do I have some weird "special" disks on my hands?? The
Applesauce author posits that the combination of the dual-sensor drive
and the dual-hole media wouldn't typically find themselves together.? Is
this accurate?? If it's not, how would a system contemporary with the
media have handled the two index holes?
Gene, are you certain that these aren't "flippy disks" (two index
apertures)?
But I've seen what you describe.
I recall one occasion where I received the single-double type that you
describe and having to cover the single-sided hole to get to the other
side of the disk.
--Chuck
10:39 a.m.
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 10/31/21 9:57 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Chuck, here's a photo of the disk type I'm using:
https://i.imgur.com/Cq778xT.jpg
As you can see, they're not mirrored for "flippy" use.
I'm working with the developer of the Applesauce disk imaging tool in
order to iron out some issues with 8" disk support.
I'm using a Qumetrak 842 disk drive that's got support for both double
and single-sided media.? This means that it's equipped with two index
hole sensors, slightly offset from one another.? It's my understanding
that single-sided media has the index hole in one spot on the jacket,
and double-sided media has one in a slightly different location.
The issue at hand is some NIB Dysan double-sided 8" media I have - the
disks have index holes in the jacket in both locations.? Is this
typical, or do I have some weird "special" disks on my hands?? The
Applesauce author posits that the combination of the dual-sensor drive
and the dual-hole media wouldn't typically find themselves together.? Is
this accurate?? If it's not, how would a system contemporary with the
media have handled the two index holes?
Gene, are you certain that these aren't "flippy disks" (two index
apertures)?
But I've seen what you describe.
I recall one occasion where I received the single-double type that you
describe and having to cover the single-sided hole to get to the other
side of the disk.
If I have to mask off one of the index holes I can do that. I can
understand why Dysan would produce a disk that could be used in either
drive, but a drive that could use both single and double-sided media had
to have been common back then, which leaves me wondering how it was
handled.
tnx!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
12:27 p.m.
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Gene, are you certain that these aren't
"flippy disks" (two index
apertures)?
And, if you punch a THIRD hole, then the disk could be used DS, OR Flippy!
One of my first products to market, the "Berkeley Microcomputer FlipJig",
was a plexiglass "pocket" with holes, for marking diskettes for punching
the extra holes.
The "deluxe" model had a stub spindle on the outside and a ring, for
putting on hub reinforcers.
The 8" model had provision for marking either the DS hole or the SS hole.
So, I did have a few DS/Flippy 8" disks.
The 5.25" one was, of course, obsolete as soon as DS 5.25" drives became
popular (PC-DOS 1.10).
I used to have some mimeographed instructions, that were purportedly
put out unofficially by somebody in IBM, for a patch to PC-DOS 1.00
for use with DS drives, that trested the second side as if it were ANOTHER
drive!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
2:21 p.m.
One of my first products to market, the "Berkeley
Microcomputer
FlipJig",
was a plexiglass "pocket" with holes, for marking diskettes for
punching
the extra holes.
The "deluxe" model had a stub spindle on the outside and a ring, for
putting on hub reinforcers.
I guess this is not the deluxe model?
https://www.computerhistory.it/images/stories/storia/supporti/8inch_puncher.
jpg
3:17 p.m.
> One of my first products to market, the
"Berkeley Microcomputer
> FlipJig", was a plexiglass "pocket" with holes, for marking diskettes
> for punching the extra holes.
> The "deluxe" model had a stub spindle on the outside and a ring, for
> putting on hub reinforcers.
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, Ali wrote:
I guess this is not the deluxe model?
https://www.computerhistory.it/images/stories/storia/supporti/8inch_puncher.
jpg
Well, that one is not the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig"
Mine was just a simple plexi pocket with holes for MARKING the disk.
Then, the holes were punched with an ordinary handheld hole punch
I included a stationery store one with a clear blue plastic cover of the
lower jaw, to avoid scratching the disk and to catch the chad.
(similar to https://www.ebay.com/itm/164142456915 )
10:07 p.m.
I guess this
is not the deluxe model?
https://www.computerhistory.it/images/stories/storia/supporti/8inch_pun
cher.
jpg
Well, that one is not the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig"
Mine was just a simple plexi pocket with holes for MARKING the disk.
Then, the holes were punched with an ordinary handheld hole punch
I included a stationery store one with a clear blue plastic cover of
the
lower jaw, to avoid scratching the disk and to catch the chad.
(similar to https://www.ebay.com/itm/164142456915 )
10:33 p.m.
On 10/31/21 10:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
"Computers that used the floppy index hole also
required two additional
openings in the floppy case to allow the drive to access when the disk was
upside down. However, it was a difficult and risky operation for the
integrity of the support. To facilitate this intervention, there were "guide
masks" which allowed to accurately trace the position where the hole was to
be made. These tools included the "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" which
was available for both 8 "and 5" 1/4 discs."
Interesting. When I was using 8" disks early on, the only ones
available were single-sided. However, several manufacturers produced
"flippies' with labels on both sides. I still have several such
examples in my stash.
You'd think that a simple cardboard template would serve to allow users
to mark additional hole locations, however.
--Chuck
1 Nov
1 Nov
8:24 a.m.
I use a few Shugart 8" single sided drives on my cp/m 2.2 machine. How do
you make 'flippies'?
Mike Zahorik
(414) 254-6768
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
via cctalk
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2021 12:34 AM
To: Ali via cctalk
Subject: Re: 8" disk drive questions...
On 10/31/21 10:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
"Computers that used the floppy index hole also
required two additional
openings in the floppy case to allow the drive to access when the disk was
upside down. However, it was a difficult and risky operation for the
integrity of the support. To facilitate this intervention, there were
"guide
masks" which allowed to accurately trace the
position where the hole was
to
be made. These tools included the "Berkeley
Microcomputer Flip-Jig" which
was available for both 8 "and 5" 1/4 discs."
Interesting. When I was using 8" disks early on, the only ones
available were single-sided. However, several manufacturers produced
"flippies' with labels on both sides. I still have several such
examples in my stash.
You'd think that a simple cardboard template would serve to allow users
to mark additional hole locations, however.
--Chuck
8:38 a.m.
I'm not as familiar with 8" drives but in the 5.25" drives there were
small punches you could buy that were designed to punch an additional
index hole so single sided floppies could be used as flippies.
I think it was Wangco that made a single sided drive that had dual write
protect and dual index sensors so that you just turn the disk over
rather than punching a hole.
There were also some problems spinning cheaper floppies in the "wrong"
direction when they were flipped.
On 11/1/2021 10:24 AM, mike via cctalk wrote:
I use a few Shugart 8" single sided drives on my
cp/m 2.2 machine. How do
you make 'flippies'?
Mike Zahorik
(414) 254-6768
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
via cctalk
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2021 12:34 AM
To: Ali via cctalk
Subject: Re: 8" disk drive questions...
On 10/31/21 10:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
"Computers that used the floppy index hole
also required two additional
openings in the floppy case to allow the drive to access when the disk was
upside down. However, it was a difficult and risky operation for the
integrity of the support. To facilitate this intervention, there were
"guide
masks" which allowed to accurately trace the
position where the hole was
to
be made. These tools included the "Berkeley
Microcomputer Flip-Jig" which
was available for both 8 "and 5" 1/4 discs."
Interesting. When I
was using 8" disks early on, the only ones
available were single-sided. However, several manufacturers produced
"flippies' with labels on both sides. I still have several such
examples in my stash.
You'd think that a simple cardboard template would serve to allow users
to mark additional hole locations, however.
--Chuck
10:10 a.m.
On 11/1/21 8:24 AM, mike wrote:
I use a few Shugart 8" single sided drives on my
cp/m 2.2 machine. How do
you make 'flippies'?
Mike Zahorik
Simple enough--Get yourself a hand punch like this one:
https://www.swingline.com/c/punches/?rslt=34
Using an old floppy jacket (sans cookie), place it over the floppy you
want to convert to a flippie. but invert it. Mark where the index
aperture is on the disk to be converted. Do the same for the reverse
side of the disk. Slip your punch between the jacket and cookie (using
a piece of paper on the cookie to prevent damage, and punch the marked
holes out on both sides.
You'll wind up with a disk that has 2 index apertures in the jacket.
You can now insert the disk, inverted in your single sided drive and use
the other side. I'm a bit surprised that google doesn't turn up images
of such floppies. I'll have to get a photo of one and post it somewhere.
--Chuck
31 Oct
31 Oct
12:14 p.m.
Put a piece of opaque tape over one of the holes.
Make sure that it is solidly attached.
I used to use write protect tabs.
But aged write protect tabs rarely still stick well.
And, it is a hassle to dig out ones that have fallen off inside the drive.
I ran most of my 8" drives without cases, so it wasn't such a big deal.
Covering the index hole of the diskette was one crude work-around ("the
band-aid") for reading certain WD formatted 5.25" disks using an NEC
controller, where the NEC went "flash-blind" after the index, and then
wasn't quite ready to read before the first sector of the WD disk (with
short index gap) came around. A better solution, for a non-temporary
setup (for 5.25" index) was to make a special cable that interrupted that
wire with a switch.
There are presumably jumpers on that drive, perhaps wire to those jumpers
with an external switch?
Having both sets of holes on the disk lets the disk be formatted and used
as either single sided or double sided.
Having both sets of sensors in the drive lets it be a single sided or
double sided drive.
Neither were especially common, so the combination didn't happen often for
most people.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, geneb via cctalk wrote:
I'm working with the developer of the Applesauce disk imaging tool in order
to iron out some issues with 8" disk support.
I'm using a Qumetrak 842 disk drive that's got support for both double and
single-sided media. This means that it's equipped with two index hole
sensors, slightly offset from one another. It's my understanding that
single-sided media has the index hole in one spot on the jacket, and
double-sided media has one in a slightly different location.
The issue at hand is some NIB Dysan double-sided 8" media I have - the disks
have index holes in the jacket in both locations. Is this typical, or do I
have some weird "special" disks on my hands? The Applesauce author posits
that the combination of the dual-sensor drive and the dual-hole media
wouldn't typically find themselves together. Is this accurate? If it's not,
how would a system contemporary with the media have handled the two index
holes?
Thanks!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
12:29 p.m.
On 10/31/21 12:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Put a piece of opaque tape over one of the holes.
Make sure that it is solidly attached.
I used to use write protect tabs.
But aged write protect tabs rarely still stick well.
And, it is a hassle to dig out ones that have fallen off inside the
drive. I ran most of my 8" drives without cases, so it wasn't such a big
deal.
Neither were especially common, so the combination
didn't happen often
for most people.
I use an 842 here quite frequently, and as far as memory serves, it's
side-hole-blind. That is, a disk with a single-sided aperture only can
still be processed as a double-sided disk.
However, as Fred says, best to check the jumpers. I believe that Al has
put the OEM guide on bitsavers.
--Chuck
12:41 p.m.
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I use an 842 here quite frequently, and as far as
memory serves, it's
side-hole-blind. That is, a disk with a single-sided aperture only can
still be processed as a double-sided disk.
However, as Fred says, best to check the jumpers. I believe that Al has
put the OEM guide on bitsavers.
I've taped over the SS hole, but still have issues with the Applesauce - I
suspect I damaged it with all my messing around. I'll try hooking it back
up to a PC and see how it does with the hole covered.
I've got the maintenance guide, so I'll look to see what is there when I
get a chance, thanks.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
3:40 p.m.
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, geneb via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I've got the drive connected to a PC and with the single-sided index hole
covered, it behaves perfectly. I'm able to format the disk and copy
files.
I use an 842 here quite frequently, and as far as
memory serves, it's
side-hole-blind. That is, a disk with a single-sided aperture only can
still be processed as a double-sided disk.
However, as Fred says, best to check the jumpers. I believe that Al has
put the OEM guide on bitsavers.
I've taped over the SS hole, but still have issues with the Applesauce - I
suspect I damaged it with all my messing around. I'll try hooking it back up
to a PC and see how it does with the hole covered.
I've got the maintenance guide, so I'll look
to see what is there when I get
a chance, thanks.
I didn't see anything in the manual about how to handle the two index
sensors, or to deactivate one of them.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
3:58 p.m.
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, geneb via cctalk wrote:
In normal use, it should be transparent to the user, since it will simply
see whichever hole is there.
But, it seems odd that there wouldn't at least be jumpers for them.
I have NO familiarity with that drive; I was mostly using Shugart and
Tandon for 8".
I've got
the maintenance guide, so I'll look to see what is there when I
get a chance, thanks.
I didn't see anything in the manual about how to handle the two index
sensors, or to deactivate one of them.
7:50 p.m.
On 10/31/21 3:40 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I've taped over the SS hole, but still have
issues with the Applesauce
> - I suspect I damaged it with all my messing around.? I'll try hooking
> it back up to a PC and see how it does with the hole covered.
It's been too many floppies to remember, perhaps my recollection is that
floppies punched for SS can be used in the 842 as DS without punching
another hole.
Some drives do inhibit selection of the second side if the disk isn't so
punched.
--CHuck
1147
days inactive
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days old
16 comments
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participants (6)
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bitwiz＠12bitsbest.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cctalk＠ibm51xx.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
m.zahorik＠sbcglobal.net