15 Mar
2005
15 Mar
'05
10:29 a.m.
From: "Barry Watzman" <Watzman at
neo.rr.com>
I remain convinced that USB, not parallel, is the "right" way to go for
interfacing a Universal Floppy Disk controller.
Hi Barry
I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking this way.
Still, I believe that development work should be done in
an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is
just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind
what the final product will be like. In other words, don't
lock the design into one specific format.
The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers
for each machine it is connected to. These have to be
specific to the USB device we use to interface with.
RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from
text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine.
I just wish that USB was that simple.
Dwight
15 Mar
15 Mar
7:13 a.m.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking this
way.
Still, I believe that development work should be done in
an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is
just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind
what the final product will be like. In other words, don't
lock the design into one specific format.
The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers
for each machine it is connected to. These have to be
specific to the USB device we use to interface with.
RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from
text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine.
I dispute Barry's assertion that serial is going away. Perhaps in
consumer products it will be supplanted by USB. But in development
products and applications, and low level controller and embedded system
devices, it'll be around for quite a while yet.
I'd argue that the serial port is the most under-rated device is
computing. It is the most widely deployed communcations protocol and
allows computers 1 month old to connect and transfer data to computers
that are over 30 years old.
As for Dwight's main argument that the interface is not the main focus, I
agree.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
3:30 p.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:13 AM
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
I keep forgetting, what is the most recommended way to hook up a dial up
modem to Linux ;-)
I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is absolutely
required there are USB to serial adapters.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking
this way.
Still, I believe that development work should be done in
an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is
just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind
what the final product will be like. In other words, don't
lock the design into one specific format.
The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers
for each machine it is connected to. These have to be
specific to the USB device we use to interface with.
RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from
text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine.
I dispute Barry's assertion that serial is going away. Perhaps in
consumer products it will be supplanted by USB. But in development
products and applications, and low level controller and embedded system
devices, it'll be around for quite a while yet.
I'd argue that the serial port is the most under-rated device is
computing. It is the most widely deployed communcations protocol and
allows computers 1 month old to connect and transfer data to computers
that are over 30 years old.
As for Dwight's main argument that the interface is not the main focus, I
agree.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
mputers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at
http://marketplace.vintage.org ] 
4:38 p.m.
Randy McLaughlin wrote:
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at
siconic.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:13 AM
I have 2 PCs and 4 Macs without serial ports.
Doc
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
I keep forgetting, what is the most recommended way to hook up a dial up
modem to Linux ;-)
I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is
absolutely required there are USB to serial adapters. I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking
this way.
Still, I believe that development work should be done in
an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is
just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind
what the final product will be like. In other words, don't
lock the design into one specific format.
The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers
for each machine it is connected to. These have to be
specific to the USB device we use to interface with.
RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from
text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine.
I dispute Barry's assertion that serial is going away. Perhaps in
consumer products it will be supplanted by USB. But in development
products and applications, and low level controller and embedded system
devices, it'll be around for quite a while yet.
I'd argue that the serial port is the most under-rated device is
computing. It is the most widely deployed communcations protocol and
allows computers 1 month old to connect and transfer data to computers
that are over 30 years old.
As for Dwight's main argument that the interface is not the main focus, I
agree.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
mputers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at
http://marketplace.vintage.org ] 
16 Mar
16 Mar
2:51 p.m.
I have never
seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is
absolutely required there are USB to serial adapters.
I have 2 PCs and 4 Macs without serial ports. 
15 Mar
15 Mar
6:26 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Randy McLaughlin once stated:
I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is absolutely
required there are USB to serial adapters.
For now.
I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter [1].
-spc (Still using 10Base-2 at the house ... )
[1] I have a KVM [2] switch that only uses PS/2 style connectors. I
have an older PC that uses the AT (fat) style keyboard connector and
it's a pain that I can't connect it up to the KVM.
I tried finding the adapter at a local Rat Shack and no go.
[2] Keyboard, Video, Mouse
11:35 a.m.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:
It was thus said that the Great Randy McLaughlin once
stated:
One single phrase of advice: Get to know all the computer recyclers in
your area.
At this point, computer recyclers are popping up all over the place, as
there's money to be made with overseas re-sale and government subsidized
recycling programs. These are the guys getting in literally tons of old
PC crap every day/week. They're the ones that are going to have odd
cables, connectors, gender changers, old parts you need like ISA cards,
power supplies, keyboards, disk drives, even the occasional vintage bit of
gear like Sun, DEC, SGI, etc. hardware.
Forget Radio Shack, and forget eBay. The computer recyclers have what you
need. Get to know them, befriend them, charm them, do something nice for
them, offer them money, so that they'll be a good source for all kinds of
stuff you can't find anywhere else.
Better yet, start your own computer recycling business. It's fun and
profitable, and if you do it right, people pay you to take stuff away from
them. Amazing!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is absolutely
required there are USB to serial adapters.
For now.
I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter [1].
-spc (Still using 10Base-2 at the house ... )
[1] I have a KVM [2] switch that only uses PS/2 style connectors. I
have an older PC that uses the AT (fat) style keyboard connector and
it's a pain that I can't connect it up to the KVM.
I tried finding the adapter at a local Rat Shack and no go.
[2] Keyboard, Video, Mouse 
8:01 p.m.
And thusly Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner spake:
[1] I have a KVM [2] switch that only uses PS/2 style connectors. I
have an older PC that uses the AT (fat) style keyboard connector and
it's a pain that I can't connect it up to the KVM.
I tried finding the adapter at a local Rat Shack and no go.
Sean,
You want the AT-PS/2 Adapter pack - Cat # 26.148
Cheers,
Bryan Pope
4:54 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated:
What? And risk one of my precious IBM keyboards?! They're getting harder
and harder to find nowadays (didn't find *any* at the last Ham fest [1]) and
what ones I have left I'm not willing to experiment on.
But I've gotten a few solid leads on some adaptors (and yes, it's worth it
to me to buy the adaptors---nothing more dangerous than a software guy with
a soldering iron and all that.
Also, I've found a source for the IBM keyboards (AT or PS/2 style) still
being made (although without the IBM logo)
http://www.pckeyboard.com/
but they're *expensive* (although well worth it).
-spc (The most I've ever paid for an IBM keyboard was $10)
I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT
keyboard adapter [1].
But that's just a connector change. Cut off the PS/2 mini-DIN plug and
solder on a normal DIN plug, or vice versa.
5:38 p.m.
I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT
keyboard adapter [1].
But that's just a connector change. Cut off the PS/2 mini-DIN plug and
solder on a normal DIN plug, or vice versa. But I've gotten a few solid leads on some
adaptors (and yes, it's worth it
to me to buy the adaptors---nothing more dangerous than a software guy with
a soldering iron and all that.
How about a hardware guy with a C compiler :-)
-tony
6:06 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Wait till I build the hardware first ... then the %@$! compiler.
Ben alias woodelf.
But I've
gotten a few solid leads on some adaptors (and yes, it's worth it
to me to buy the adaptors---nothing more dangerous than a software guy with
a soldering iron and all that.
How about a hardware guy with a C compiler :-)
17 Mar
17 Mar
8:12 a.m.
New subject: Kinda OT: Keyboard Adapters for PCs
Rumor has it that Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner may have mentioned these words:
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once
stated:
What? And risk one of my precious IBM keyboards?! They're getting harder
and harder to find nowadays (didn't find *any* at the last Ham fest [1]) and
what ones I have left I'm not willing to experiment on.
But I've gotten a few solid leads on some adaptors (and yes, it's worth it
to me to buy the adaptors---nothing more dangerous than a software guy with
a soldering iron and all that.
We keep 'em in stock here... Both ways, just in case.
I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT
keyboard adapter [1].
But that's just a connector change. Cut off the PS/2 mini-DIN plug and
solder on a normal DIN plug, or vice versa. Also, I've found a source for the IBM keyboards
(AT or PS/2 style) still
being made (although without the IBM logo)
http://www.pckeyboard.com/
but they're *expensive* (although well worth it).
-spc (The most I've ever paid for an IBM keyboard was $10)
The most I've paid is half that -- that's why I have several, "just in
case." A few don't work right, so I have lots of spare parts...
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate."
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein
zmerch at 30below.com |
8:37 a.m.
New subject: Kinda OT: Keyboard Adapters for PCs
Roger Merchberger wrote:
The most I've paid is half that -- that's why
I have several, "just in
case." A few don't work right, so I have lots of spare parts...
Same here, although pckeyboard.com does have the only keyboard worth paying
$100 for: The classic 101 with embedded trackpoint pointing device. These are
a dream -- the trackpoint is very sensitive and responsive, and you never have
to take your hands off of the keyboard.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
10:01 a.m.
New subject: Kinda OT: Keyboard Adapters for PCs
It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated:
Well, $10 was teh *most*, not the average. The $10 IBM keyboard (which
I'm using now) black, with the mouse between the 'G' and 'H' keys (a
very
small joystick that looks like an eraser [1]) with the mouse buttons below
the space bar. Most of the rest I paid around $1 to $2 for at past Ham
Fests [2].
-spc (Now, if only laptops would have better keyboards ... )
[1] Well, on mine it's an actual eraser, as the original red
... um ... nipple? fell apart.
[2] http://boston.conman.org/2005/02/05.1 - the most recent
Miami Ham Fest and boy, was it a disapointment ...
We keep 'em in stock here... Both ways, just in case.
I have quite a number of them too.
-spc (The
most I've ever paid for an IBM keyboard was $10)
The most I've paid is half that -- that's why I have several, "just in
case." A few don't work right, so I have lots of spare parts...
15 Mar
15 Mar
4:26 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
For purposes of connecting old storage to new computers, Barry's
point stands. The discussion here doesn't really include development
hardware, low-level controllers or embedded systems. If I were going to
design hardware for a "next-gen compaticard", it would not be on a
serial port.
I won't argue that serial is underrated, and it's true that it's not
disappearing, but a rising percentage of commodity desktop systems come
with no serial interface.
It's the usual story that numbers, not quality, define success. USB
is going to be "it" for a good long while.
I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking
this way.
Still, I believe that development work should be done in
an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is
just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind
what the final product will be like. In other words, don't
lock the design into one specific format.
The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers
for each machine it is connected to. These have to be
specific to the USB device we use to interface with.
RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from
text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine.
I dispute Barry's assertion that serial is going away. Perhaps in
consumer products it will be supplanted by USB. But in development
products and applications, and low level controller and embedded system
devices, it'll be around for quite a while yet.
I'd argue that the serial port is the most under-rated device is
computing. It is the most widely deployed communcations protocol and
allows computers 1 month old to connect and transfer data to computers
that are over 30 years old. As for Dwight's main argument that the interface
is not the main focus, I
agree.
Just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, we might consider
ethernet. Even more universal than USB, doesn't exclude older systems,
and only comes in three common connectors (that I can think of. A lot
of the appliance-oriented microcontrollers and CPUs now have builtin
ethernet, right? With microcoded TCP stacks and even DHCP clients.
Plug your 8" floppy drives into your *network*....
I think that while the hardware costs would be higher, the
development issues would be greatly reduced.
Doc
9:40 a.m.
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote:
For purposes of connecting old storage to new
computers, Barry's
point stands. The discussion here doesn't really include development
hardware, low-level controllers or embedded systems. If I were going to
design hardware for a "next-gen compaticard", it would not be on a
serial port.
I suppose it depends what hardware you're working with. Most of the
systems that I use to dump data are old 486 or Pentium PCs. Even 386 and
286 machines are useful. And these are machines that will be around in
droves for years to come. I can also stick an ethernet card in them with
TCP/IP drivers and attach to my Windows XP server. My older PCs don't
have USB, and even if I could plug in a USB PCI adapater (most of them
also don't have PCI slots) I wouldn't have the drivers.
At any rate, I don't think the point was pitting USB against serial but
had more to do with not focusing on what tie you should wear when you're
going to dig a hole.
I won't argue that serial is underrated
Well, for our purposes, it's far more "universal" than USB.
Just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, we
might consider
ethernet. Even more universal than USB, doesn't exclude older systems,
and only comes in three common connectors (that I can think of. A lot
Guess what? Serial includes even more systems and a serial connector can
be wired up for any connection without much trouble, usually with just two
wires.
of the appliance-oriented microcontrollers and CPUs
now have builtin
ethernet, right? With microcoded TCP stacks and even DHCP clients.
Plug your 8" floppy drives into your *network*....
Have fun programming the drivers for that.
At any rate, as long as we have USB to serial converters then that at
least guarantees that people investing in contemporary hardware will still
be able to connect to their vintage computers.
And one other point that Dwight made that can't be ignored is that USB
does require specific drivers for the device on the other end, as opposed
to serial which is a just a simple, dumb data connection. Why does
everything have to be "smart" anyway?
I'll continue to prefer straight serial for some time to come.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
7222
days inactive
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16 comments
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participants (10)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bpope＠wordstock.com -
cctalk＠randy482.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
dwight.elvey＠amd.com -
spc＠conman.org -
trixter＠oldskool.org -
vcf＠siconic.com -
zmerch＠30below.com