18 Apr
2004
18 Apr
'04
12:37 p.m.
Has anyone worked on, or thought about working on, a "price guide"
specifically for PDP-11 (or PDP-8, or VAX) hardware? I know of Michael
Nadeu's book for microcomputers (which I keep meaning to buy), but this
is really a different realm of things, as you can configure (for
example) a PDP-11/23 in a whole lot more ways than you could with a
C-64. I've thought "hmm, this would really be handy" a few times
before, but haven't had much time to sit down and work on it.
It'd be nice if I could keep it up to date, and use multiple data
sources (not just past marketplace.vintage.org sales), including eBay
and semi-private sales. Also, a "rarity" quantity of some sort would
be useful, and could just be "very rare" for, say, the preverbial 11/74
(the one that's supposedly 2 CPUs), to "common" for an 11/23.
Thoughts?
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
18 Apr
18 Apr
1:12 p.m.
Quothe Patrick Finnegan, from writings of Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at
07:37:02PM -0500:
Has anyone worked on, or thought about working on, a
"price guide"
specifically for PDP-11 (or PDP-8, or VAX) hardware? I know of Michael
What for? As we all know, they're typically worth the price of what
it costs to get to them, transport them home and repair them, unless
one gets suckered into paying a higher price. The last thing that we
need is a document supporting the grossly inflated prices that some
people are willing to pay for such systems.
--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved | My VAX | an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
www.rddavis.org | runs VMS & | her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
410-744-4900 | doesn't crash!| beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
1:22 p.m.
Well... the last one I bought (11/44, RSX-11M+, a pair of RA-80s, 9
track deck, etc, etc, etc) was about $110,000 (1983 dollars).
<giggle>
What Mr. Davis said.
Jim
On Sunday, Apr 18, 2004, at 18:12 US/Pacific, R. D. Davis flung into
the ether:
What for? As we all know, they're typically worth the price of what
it costs to get to them, transport them home and repair them, unless
one gets suckered into paying a higher price. The last thing that we
need is a document supporting the grossly inflated prices that some
people are willing to pay for such systems.
2:33 p.m.
Quothe Jim Arnott, from writings of Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at 06:22:15PM -0700:
Well... the last one I bought (11/44, RSX-11M+, a pair
of RA-80s, 9
track deck, etc, etc, etc) was about $110,000 (1983 dollars).
However... surely it's been written off by now as fully depreciated,
and despite what the residual, or scrap, value is for equipment such
as that, one often has to pay to have it dismantled and hauled away.
Hence, anyone who will take such an available system away for free is
offering the owner an excellent deal.
--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved | My VAX | an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
www.rddavis.org | runs VMS & | her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
410-744-4900 | doesn't crash!| beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
1:27 p.m.
On Sunday 18 April 2004 20:12, R. D. Davis wrote:
Quothe Patrick Finnegan, from writings of Sun, Apr 18,
2004 at
07:37:02PM -0500:
Because there are some people willing to pay money for machines. Nearly
every machine I'd stick the "really cool" label on, I paid for. Some
things are hard to find, and even harder to get anyone to give up.
UNIBUS '11s are a good example.
And, I'd disagree that these things don't have any value. The have
value, if not for any better reason than for insurance purposes. Also,
saying they aren't worth any more than it costs to transport them hurts
in the long run. There's people that send this stuff to scrappers
because they think it's worthless. If I can keep one more functional
machine out of the hands of a scrapper, it's a worthwile thing I've
done. As well, in the long run, if more machines are kept in
circulation, they'll end up being "worth less" (not worthless), and
it'll be easier for people that have some interest to acquire one to
play around with.
I still haven't ever seen an 11/70 in the flesh and blood. I never saw
an 11/780 until my freshman year here when Purdue was trashing one. If
I'd have known then what I know now about where things go, I'd have
saved that one. I don't care that I don't have it as much as *no one*
has it. I'd rather see this stuff get preserved than get far enough
down the train to end up in a dumpster or in a scrap yard. Sure, it
might be a little more expensive, but it seems worth it to me.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Has anyone worked on, or thought about working
on, a "price guide"
specifically for PDP-11 (or PDP-8, or VAX) hardware? I know of
Michael
What for? As we all know, they're typically worth the price of what
it costs to get to them, transport them home and repair them, unless
one gets suckered into paying a higher price. The last thing that we
need is a document supporting the grossly inflated prices that some
people are willing to pay for such systems.
2:52 p.m.
Quothe Patrick Finnegan, from writings of Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at
08:27:35PM -0500:
Because there are some people willing to pay money for
machines. Nearly
every machine I'd stick the "really cool" label on, I paid for. Some
things are hard to find, and even harder to get anyone to give up.
UNIBUS '11s are a good example.
Hmmm... and humph! See below...
And, I'd disagree that these things don't have
any value. The have
value, if not for any better reason than for insurance purposes. Also,
saying they aren't worth any more than it costs to transport them hurts
See, this is what happens when collectors start poking their noses
into hobbies that were once inexpensive. Prices start to go up and
then only the collectors with deep pockets filled with money that
comes loose from them too easily, who are more interested in long-term
profits than fun, can afford the toys. If I was earning several
billion dollars a year, I'd still refuse to pay high prices for old
computer systems, since that would take the fun out of the hobby.
in the long run. There's people that send this
stuff to scrappers
because they think it's worthless. If I can keep one more functional
Convincing people that this equipment might be _wanted_ by some
people, and convincing them to let hobbyists preserve it for good
reason, would be the better solution than making them think it has
some ridiculously high value. That eliminate the little variable
called greed that's bound to creep into the equation.
saved that one. I don't care that I don't
have it as much as *no one*
has it. I'd rather see this stuff get preserved than get far enough
down the train to end up in a dumpster or in a scrap yard. Sure, it
Surely most of us feel that way...
might be a little more expensive, but it seems worth
it to me.
...but I, for one, don't feel that needless inflation has to come into
play in order for equipment to be preserved.
--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved | My VAX | an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
www.rddavis.org | runs VMS & | her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
410-744-4900 | doesn't crash!| beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
3:11 p.m.
See, this is what happens when collectors start poking
their noses
into hobbies that were once inexpensive. Prices start to go up and
then only the collectors with deep pockets filled with money that
comes loose from them too easily...
You have just described the evolution of every hobby that involves
collecting something. EVERY hobby - even ones as odd as collecting barbed
wire, McDonald's promotions, flagpole finials, ice cream scoops, and
airline timetables.
...who are more interested in long-term
profits than fun, can afford the toys.
I am really getting sick and tired of people that think that the rich
collectors are ONLY in it for the money. A HUGE MAJORITY ARE NOT. I have
repeated this over and over again on this list, but SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T
GET IT. I personally know quite a few off the big rollers in the computer
and radio collecting fields and VERY few are looking at collecting as an
investment. They love the radios and machines just as much as everyone
else - just MAYBE they WORKED A LITTLE HARDER to grow their collection.
Convincing people that this equipment might be
_wanted_ by some
people, and convincing them to let hobbyists preserve it for good
reason, would be the better solution than making them think it has
some ridiculously high value.
Money talks. Its a basic rule of life.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
3:52 p.m.
Quothe William Donzelli, from writings of Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at
11:11:47PM -0400:
Money talks. Its a basic rule of life.
That, I'm not disputing. However, the cheaper one can keep prices,
the thriftier one can be with purchases---no matter how much money one
has, and the more toys one can accumulate. Hence, the big collectors
should like this as well, since they could have even more toys for the
same amount of money. Who doesn't like to spend the least amount of
money for something? Thriftiness is a good idea, no matter what one's
income is; it makes good economic sense. BTW, I do not say that just
because I have some Scottish blood in me.
--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved | My VAX | an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
www.rddavis.org | runs VMS & | her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
410-744-4900 | doesn't crash!| beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
4:16 p.m.
Money talks.
Its a basic rule of life.
That, I'm not disputing. However, the cheaper one can keep prices,
the thriftier one can be with purchases---no matter how much money one
has, and the more toys one can accumulate. Hence, the big collectors
should like this as well, since they could have even more toys for the
same amount of money. 
4:20 p.m.
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Yes, but there's going to be supply-and-demand
issues with popular items.
It's unavoidable that a rare or noteworthy system is going to go for a
premium, and that's the price you pay (pun intended) with an open market.
It's a commodity like any other.
It is also knowing the value of things, and getting items that you
collect while they are still common. While I like old computers
I collect now good music and anime before become they become collectors
items.
Ben.
19 Apr
19 Apr
3:16 a.m.
--- "R. D. Davis" <rdd(a)rddavis.org> wrote:
That, I'm not disputing. However, the cheaper
one
can keep prices,
the thriftier one can be with purchases---no matter
how much money one
has, and the more toys one can accumulate. Hence,
the big collectors
should like this as well, since they could have even
more toys for the
same amount of money. Who doesn't like to spend the
least amount of
money for something?
Fine but if you take that position then you can't
complain about someone who's position is "who doesn't
like to receive the most amount for something they
sell?". It two sides of the same coin, you are
basically arguing about sellers who has the same
philosophy as you do (i.e., money is more important
then anything else).
Thriftiness is a good idea, no
matter what one's
income is; it makes good economic sense.
Bullcrap, thriftiness can be bad economic sense for a
billionare who's time is worth alot of money (since
thriftiness is usually a time consuming behavior). Yes
if the billionare is buying a company, it will pay to
be thrifty, but not if he is buying pieces of a large
personal collection. It just doesn't make any sense
for a billionare to spend a week of his time to save a
hundred bucks on a collectible item when he could be
saving hundreds of thousands if he spent that time on
a bigger business transactions.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
18 Apr
18 Apr
6:55 p.m.
R. D. Davis declared on Sunday 18 April 2004 09:52 pm:
I'd agree. I never said a "high value," just *some value*. Another
point this would be useful for is trying to keep people from trying to
sell, say, a "common-as-dirt" VAXstation 3100m38 for $1000 and getting
fed up when no one wants it.
There'll still be people to trade stuff with, who give it away for free,
etc.
I think while it might cause some inflation, it a) wouldn't be
significant b) might keep people from getting conned into paying
$way_too_much for something, and c) would increase the supply as well.
If the demand doesn't go up a whole lot, that means that the price might
actually go down.
Also, some publicity like a price guide might make someone realize that a
machine is worth money, and donate it to a museum - like SMECC, RCS/RI,
VCF, etc - for a tax rebate.
Cheap is good, but preservation, IMHO, is more important. No amount of
thriftiness can save the machine that got crushed in the refuse truck.
Well, it's time for me to go to bed. If anyone has any suggestions on
where I might start with a price guide, feel free to email me off list.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Quothe Patrick Finnegan, from writings of Sun, Apr 18,
2004 at
I agree with William Donzelli's asessment of this. You're being a bit
too pessimistic I think. While some people might see the price guide, a
lot of people won't have a clue it exists, or that this stuff might be
worth something. Talk to to anyone who's had their baseball card
collection thrown out by their mom while at college.
No matter what, there'll still be items thrown out, due to time or
"ignorance" on the part of the person getting rid of it. There'll
always be a supply of machines that go to scrappers or dumpsters and can
be intercepted for free. I've told the people at Purdue Salvage time
and time again, "Don't throw anything out made by DEC/digital, I'll pay
you money for it," yet I still pull the stuff out of dumpsters there.
It's a good thing I go there 1-2x per week. I typically don't find
much, but when I do, it's well worth the 10 times I went before and
didn't find anything.
Again, as Sellam has said, the way to find things is to leave no stone
unturned. I've found being excessively persistant can net you some
great stuff for cheap to free. In fact, a recent find has netted me
some schematics which are now next to my bed, to appease Tony Duell. : )
08:27:35PM -0500:
And, I'd disagree that these things don't have any value. The have
value, if not for any better reason than for insurance purposes.
Also, saying they aren't worth any more than it costs to transport
them hurts
See, this is what happens when collectors start poking their noses
into hobbies that were once inexpensive. Prices start to go up and
then only the collectors with deep pockets filled with money that
comes loose from them too easily, who are more interested in long-term
profits than fun, can afford the toys. If I was earning several
billion dollars a year, I'd still refuse to pay high prices for old
computer systems, since that would take the fun out of the hobby. in the long
run. There's people that send this stuff to scrappers
because they think it's worthless. If I can keep one more
functional
Convincing people that this equipment might be _wanted_ by some
people, and convincing them to let hobbyists preserve it for good
reason, would be the better solution than making them think it has
some ridiculously high value. That eliminate the little variable
called greed that's bound to creep into the equation. saved that
one. I don't care that I don't have it as much as *no
one* has it. I'd rather see this stuff get preserved than get far
enough down the train to end up in a dumpster or in a scrap yard.
Sure, it
Surely most of us feel that way...
might be a little more expensive, but it seems
worth it to me.
...but I, for one, don't feel that needless inflation has to come into
play in order for equipment to be preserved. 
19 Apr
19 Apr
3:58 a.m.
New subject: save the Mac II (original)
Would somebody please take my Mac II?
I saved it from being scrapped at the office because of it's history,
in that it was Apple's big redesign, the first machine of the new line
-- one that completed with IBM's PS/2 line and argubly was a greater
success. I'm not a big Apple expert but it just seemed if you were
going to have a few Macs that this model would be in the top 5.
This one comes with a HiRes graphics card, matching Ikegami monitor
(17" but compact) cables, software, etc. They don't seem to be that
common, when you strip away all the variants, I haven't really found
a place to get this original model.
Help save the classiccmp.
John A.
4:03 a.m.
New subject: save the Mac II (original)
Hell, where are ya? If you're in NY Hudson Valley (I think I remember you
are), I'll take it.
-John Boffemmyer IV
At 11:58 AM 4/19/2004, you wrote:
Would somebody please take my Mac II?
I saved it from being scrapped at the office because of it's history,
in that it was Apple's big redesign, the first machine of the new line
-- one that completed with IBM's PS/2 line and argubly was a greater
success. I'm not a big Apple expert but it just seemed if you were
going to have a few Macs that this model would be in the top 5.
This one comes with a HiRes graphics card, matching Ikegami monitor
(17" but compact) cables, software, etc. They don't seem to be that
common, when you strip away all the variants, I haven't really found
a place to get this original model.
Help save the classiccmp.
John A.
----------------------------------------
Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst
and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies
http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html
---------------------------------------
4:19 a.m.
New subject: save the Mac II (original)
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain
Sent: 19 April 2004 16:58
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: save the Mac II (original)
Would somebody please take my Mac II?
I saved it from being scrapped at the office because of it's
history, in that it was Apple's big redesign, the first
machine of the new line
-- one that completed with IBM's PS/2 line and argubly was a
greater success. I'm not a big Apple expert but it just
seemed if you were going to have a few Macs that this model
would be in the top 5.
It would be for me, but I've already got one. Is there much interest for
original Macs here? I'm beginning to wonder after nobody replied to me
question about a dead Mac IIfx last week :-/
Cheers
w
5:34 a.m.
New subject: save the Mac II (original)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Allain" <allain(a)panix.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 11:58 AM
Subject: save the Mac II (original)
Would somebody please take my Mac II?
I saved it from being scrapped at the office because of it's history,
in that it was Apple's big redesign, the first machine of the new line
-- one that completed with IBM's PS/2 line and argubly was a greater
success. I'm not a big Apple expert but it just seemed if you were
going to have a few Macs that this model would be in the top 5.
This one comes with a HiRes graphics card, matching Ikegami monitor
(17" but compact) cables, software, etc. They don't seem to be that
common, when you strip away all the variants, I haven't really found
a place to get this original model.
Help save the classiccmp.
John A.
Where are you John? I'm in Toronto and would be interested but won't pay
shipping if you are in the States.
bm
18 Apr
18 Apr
1:26 p.m.
Has anyone worked on, or thought about working on, a
"price guide"... ... Thoughts?
I think PDP-11's, non-QBus, are damn rare today and will
only get more so in the future. Still I was able to get one the
other day for $50 totally by chance. That's supply. I don't
have a good idea as to demand. I suspect that most prople
who wanted one have one by now.
There will be exceptions. Like countries deprived of their
own computer manufacturing. They tend to hold on to old
stuff forever.
Trouble with Unibus PDP11's is they're just a tad too heavy
for one person to carry, especially when that one person is
someone wanting to set up a table at the flea market. I have
seen maybe 2 Unibus PDP11's after viewing maybe 20,000
flea market tables in over 10 years.
John A.
2:36 p.m.
Quothe John Allain, from writings of Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at 09:26:13PM -0400:
someone wanting to set up a table at the flea market.
I have
seen maybe 2 Unibus PDP11's after viewing maybe 20,000
flea market tables in over 10 years.
Sometimes you've got to climb into the large trucks behind some of the
tables and scrounge around for the good stuff hidden beneath boxes,
big piles of cables, etc. that the vendors didn't feel like unloading
from the trucks.
--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved | My VAX | an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
www.rddavis.org | runs VMS & | her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
410-744-4900 | doesn't crash!| beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
3:45 p.m.
Quothe John Allain, from writings of Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at 10:54:10PM -0400:
Excellent! :-)
--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved | My VAX | an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
www.rddavis.org | runs VMS & | her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
410-744-4900 | doesn't crash!| beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
Sometimes
you've got to climb into the large trucks...
Now I see the trucks off from their Garages. 
6:57 p.m.
Has anyone worked on, or thought about working on, a
"price guide"
specifically for PDP-11 (or PDP-8, or VAX) hardware? I know of Michael
I'm against it as well. There is a "price guide", it's what dealers
charge for an item, and what scrappers pay for it. You won't get
dealer prices (unless you get *very* lucky), and you should expect to
pay slightly more than a scrapper.
As for what dealers will pay for an item, take a look at eBay,
that'll give you a good idea, several of the people buying stuff
there are dealers.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
7552
days inactive
7553
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20 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
allain＠panix.com -
aw288＠osfn.org -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
brianmahoney＠look.ca -
gkicomputers＠yahoo.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
john_boffemmyer_iv＠boff-net.dhs.org -
jrasite＠eoni.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
rdd＠rddavis.org -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk