31 May
2008
31 May
'08
2:01 p.m.
Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for their classic
computing and/or gaming needs?
I've been looking to shave a bit of space off my workbench and just use
a single SVGA monitor instead of that and an old composite monitor. I
picked up one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XXZQWQ and
while it works great for certain systems (the C64 and NES, for example)
it gets really confused by the composite signal coming from other
systems (like the Apple II and Sega Genesis) and is unusable with them.
Anyone have any recommendations?
Thanks,
Josh
1 Jun
1 Jun
5:21 a.m.
Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for
their classic
computing and/or gaming needs?
I use one with my PlayStation 2.
I dunno how much help it'll be, though. I haven't used it with very
much else (I think I once used it with something else and it worked,
but I can't recall what, so that's not much help). I also can't help
you find another one. I got mine as a gift from the fellow who got me
started in console games, when I went to Norway (gave me a PSone at the
same time). I don't know where he got it.
It also runs disturbingly hot, even though I normally run it with the
case open.
I took a picture of the back of the case, which is the only place on
the outside of the case where I see any kind of identification markings
at all; I took another picture of the visible side of the PCB with the
case open. (The other piece of the case is made of the same yellow
plastic as the part you can see, and has nothing of any help on it -
nothing on the outside and nothing but fab-date markings on the
inside.)
See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/video-upscaler-case.jpg and
.../video-upscaler-component.jpg.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
5:40 a.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for
their classic
computing and/or gaming needs?
I've been looking to shave a bit of space off my workbench and just use
a single SVGA monitor instead of that and an old composite monitor. I
picked up one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XXZQWQ and
while it works great for certain systems (the C64 and NES, for example)
it gets really confused by the composite signal coming from other
systems (like the Apple II and Sega Genesis) and is unusable with them.
Anyone have any recommendations?
Since I like to have a second monitor on my desk anyway, I picked up a
cheap 15" LCD TV with VGA input - it's not the best VGA monitor but adaquate
for my secondary display, and has composite, 'S' and RF inputs which seem
work quite well with my vintage hardware. As a bonus it has a remote,
switches between inputs and does audio.
Regards,
Dave
--
dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html
11:04 a.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Josh wrote:
Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for
their classic
computing and/or gaming needs?
[...]
and about a specific model:
it gets really confused by the composite signal coming
from other
systems (like the Apple II and Sega Genesis) and is unusable with them.
The problem with the Apple II is that it does NOT produce NTSC video,
but rather something close enough to fool an analog television set or
monitor. The timings are deliberately wrong, especially the frequency
and phase relationships of the color subcarrier to the horizontal
sync.
Converters use commodity NTSC decoder chips that get confused
by signals with significant deviations from standard NTSC.
12:49 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Eric Smith wrote:
The problem with the Apple II is that it does NOT
produce NTSC video,
but rather something close enough to fool an analog television set or
monitor. The timings are deliberately wrong, especially the frequency
and phase relationships of the color subcarrier to the horizontal
sync.
While I knew about the slightly goofy signal, the phrase "DELIBERATELY
wrong" is new. Why was it wrong on purpose?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
2:08 p.m.
New subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
I wrote:
The problem with the Apple II is that it does NOT
produce NTSC video,
but rather something close enough to fool an analog television set or
monitor. The timings are deliberately wrong, especially the frequency
and phase relationships of the color subcarrier to the horizontal
sync.
Jim wrote:
While I knew about the slightly goofy signal, the
phrase "DELIBERATELY
wrong" is new. Why was it wrong on purpose?
NTSC requires that the horizontal rate be 227.5 times the color
subcarrier frequency, and phase-locked to it. The color carrier
thus alternates in phase 180 degrees on consecutive lines within a
field.
The Apple II horizontal rate is 288.0 times the color subcarrier
frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line.
This is also why every 65th cycle of the processor clock is longer
than the other 64. The Apple timing is derived from a 14.31818 MHz
oscillator, four times the color burst frequency. For NTSC there
should be 910 cycles per scan line (227.5 * 4). The CPU clock is
normally the oscillator frequency divided by 14, to get 1.023 MHz.
However, if that timing was used consistently, the color phase would
alternate as per the NTSC spec. Instead, every 65th processor cycle
is divided by 16, rather than 14, so that there are a total of 912
oscillator cycles per scan line, to get the constant color phase.
This makes the average CPU clock slightly lower, at 1.020 MHz.
(14.31318 MHz * 65) / (64 * 14 + 16)
This caused terrible problems for anyone that wanted to use an
Apple II as a source for video broadcast; the signal couldn't be
used even with most genlocks. I worked in a studio that used an
Apple II with a VB3 Microkeyer from Video Associate Labs. This
was a two-board set that installed in the Apple II to provide a
genlock and proc amp. It gave a 100% compliant video signal by
replacing a fair bit of the Apple II circuitry. You had to pull
about a dozen TTL chips out of the Apple and replace them with
ribbon cables to the two cards. One card went into a slot, and
the other sat above the power supply.
Naturally this wouldn't work on an Apple IIe.
Many years later Apple introduced their own video overlay card.
Rather than modifying the circuitry of the base Apple, it completely
replicated the video circuitry on the card, but provided standard
NTSC timing.
Eric
3:53 p.m.
New subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Eric Smith wrote:
The Apple II horizontal rate is 228.0 times the color
subcarrier
frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line.
Was there a reason for this design decision?
(Excellent explanation, btw, thanks!)
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
10:13 p.m.
New subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Eric Smith wrote:
The Apple II horizontal rate is 228.0 times the color
subcarrier
frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line.
Jim wrote:
Was there a reason for this design decision?
It was done so that the same bit pattern that produces green on one scan
line also produces green on the next scan line, rather than purple. This
is especially important for the low-res graphics mode, but not doing it
would also have made the high-res mode harder to use.
Eric
2 Jun
2 Jun
11:11 a.m.
New subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Eric Smith wrote:
Eric Smith wrote:
Hm... I use the same bit-pattern in composite color on an IBM CGA, and I
see that same behavior, so does that mean IBM CGA is doing the same
thing, or is the card reversing the supplied bit pattern on every
alternate scanline?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
The Apple II horizontal rate is 228.0 times the
color subcarrier
frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line.
Jim wrote:
Was there a reason for this design decision?
It was done so that the same bit pattern that produces green on one scan
line also produces green on the next scan line, rather than purple. This
is especially important for the low-res graphics mode, but not doing it
would also have made the high-res mode harder to use.
2:16 p.m.
New subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Jim wrote:
Hm... I use the same bit-pattern in composite color on
an IBM CGA, and I
see that same behavior, so does that mean IBM CGA is doing the same
thing, or is the card reversing the supplied bit pattern on every
alternate scanline?
The CGA does color generation in an entirely different manner. Three
flip-flops driven by the 3.58 and 14.32 MHz clocks generate six different
color signals with continuous phase, and the color bits from the display
RAM drive a multiplexer to select between those, black, and white. (An
additional bit selects intensity, but that's independent of the actual
color.)
I haven't verified that they make the scan lines exactly 227.5 color
carrier cycles, but they probably do, as there's no good reason for
them not to. That's mostly determined by how they program the MC6845
registers.
Eric
8 Jun
8 Jun
2:29 a.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Eric Smith wrote:
The problem with the Apple II is that it does NOT
produce NTSC video,
but rather something close enough to fool an analog television set or
monitor. The timings are deliberately wrong, especially the frequency
and phase relationships of the color subcarrier to the horizontal
sync.
Converters use commodity NTSC decoder chips that get confused
by signals with significant deviations from standard NTSC.
Just to follow up on this thread (back before it diverged :)): I've
done some testing of the composite->VGA adapter I have with a bunch of
my classic computers & video games, in case anyone's interested. The
results are:
Work fine:
- NES
- C64
- VIC20
- Amiga 2000 (mono composite)
- "Modern" video games (Sega Saturn, Dreamcast, PSX, etc...)
Do not work:
- Atari 800XL
- TI 99/4A
- Sega Genesis
- Atari 2600 (w/composite hack...)
- Apple II
- Panasonic JR-200U
The converter in question is a Geniatech "V2V Pro." It's unfortunate
that it's so incompatible, it's pretty well built, relatively
inexpensive (cost me $30) and supports decent VGA resolutions (up to
1680x1050, not that it matters much since it's converting an NTSC
signal...). The picture quality is pretty good when it's working
properly. Looks like I'll be sending this one back, though. Alas.
Josh
9 Jun
9 Jun
2:51 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Josh Dersch wrote:
The converter in question is a Geniatech "V2V Pro." It's unfortunate
that it's so incompatible, it's pretty well built, relatively
inexpensive (cost me $30) and supports decent VGA resolutions (up to
Found the problem.
With scan converters, you definitely get what you pay for. There's a
reason Folsom units are $20K. :-0
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
8:26 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Jim Leonard wrote:
Josh Dersch wrote:
Well, sure. I wasn't expecting the highest quality output for what I
paid (but I didn't _need_ that...). But I wasn't expecting it to be
unable to sync to half of my gear :). I'm sure there has to be a happy
medium between $30 and $20,000....
Josh
The converter in question is a Geniatech "V2V Pro." It's unfortunate
that it's so incompatible, it's pretty well built, relatively
inexpensive (cost me $30) and supports decent VGA resolutions (up to
Found the problem.
With scan converters, you definitely get what you pay for. There's a
reason Folsom units are $20K. :-0
10 Jun
10 Jun
9:41 a.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Josh Dersch wrote:
Well, sure. I wasn't expecting the highest quality output for what I
paid (but I didn't _need_ that...). But I wasn't expecting it to be
unable to sync to half of my gear :). I'm sure there has to be a happy
medium between $30 and $20,000....
Ebay for old broadcast gear. A professional broadcast scan converter
that is 10-12 years old should go for around $250, probably even less.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
18 Jun
18 Jun
6:39 p.m.
>
> Well, sure. I wasn't expecting the highest quality output for what I paid
> (but I didn't _need_ that...). But I wasn't expecting it to be unable to
> sync to half of my gear :).
I'm really surprised at that. Might it be as easy as some signal
conditioning? Use an LM1881 to separate the sync, and then put it
back together a bit cleaner?
I'm sure
there has to be a happy medium between
$30 and $20,000....
Ebay for old broadcast gear. A professional broadcast scan converter that
is 10-12 years old should go for around $250, probably even less.
22 Jun
22 Jun
1:25 a.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Eric J Korpela wrote:
"unable to sync" is technically inaccurate, I misspoke. The picture
is
synced properly (i.e. it's not rolling vertically or tearing
horizontally). It just seems to have trouble de-interlacing certain
signals -- from my inexpert observations, one field of each frame is
displayed properly, while the other field is skewed at a 30 degree angle
or so and flickers like mad.
At any rate, I've sent that unit back and I picked up a used one of
these:
http://www.startech.com/item/VID2VGATV-Composite-S-Video-Component-YCbCr-to…
(for _considerably_ less than what it's listed for there...). So far
it's happy with everything I've thrown at it and the picture quality is
quite good. Has decent controls, seems well built, etc...
Thanks,
Josh
> Well,
sure. I wasn't expecting the highest quality output for what I paid
> (but I didn't _need_ that...). But I wasn't expecting it to be unable to
> sync to half of my gear :).
>
I'm really surprised at that. Might it be as easy as some signal
conditioning? Use an LM1881 to separate the sync, and then put it
back together a bit cleaner?
3 Jun
3 Jun
4:59 a.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
On Sat, 31 May 2008, Josh Dersch wrote:
Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for
their classic computing
and/or gaming needs?
I purchased a Highway Model 100 RGB --> VGA converter for my Apple IIGS.
After some fiddling with the cable wiring (it uses a SCART connector for
input), results are reasonably good.
Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the
intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It
doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there
who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface.
I still do not have a workable solution to bridge Apple II (not GS)
composite video. That's the one that really has the non-standard format.
Steve
--
7:32 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video
Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA
converter board with the
intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It
doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there
who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface.
Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one?
-tony
4 Jun
4 Jun
2:54 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video
Tony Duell wrote:
Don't know, but remember how the 5153 has special circuitry that turns
color index #6 brown? I don't think any converter anywhere would handle
that properly and would just give me yellow, so my projects that require
TV output from CGA are designed around the composite color output...
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
Just picked up
a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the
intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It
doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there
who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface.
Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one?
7:43 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video
Tony Duell wrote:
Don't know, but remember how the 5153 has special circuitry that turns
color index #6 brown? I don't think any converter anywhere would handle
Hmmm...
If the input to the converter is a 4-bit TTL level thing, that as far as
I can see no external circuit could correct the 'brwon problem'. After
all, all 16 possible states of the 4 lines are used.
However, other messages make be think that the input to the coverter is
actually analogue RGB at TV rates. The sort of thing you get out of a
(UK) DVD player, for example. In which case I can see the need for an
interface to conenct it to a 4-bit RGBI connector (at the same scan
rates).
But I wouldn't call an analouge RGB inteface 'CGA'.
-tony
Just
picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the
intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It
doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there
who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface.
Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one?
5 Jun
5 Jun
3:23 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote:
However, other messages make be think that the input
to the coverter is
actually analogue RGB at TV rates. The sort of thing you get out of a
(UK) DVD player, for example. In which case I can see the need for an
interface to conenct it to a 4-bit RGBI connector (at the same scan
rates).
That's essentially what I believe my converter expects for input. It has
some lattitude for "funny" timing as well.
But I wouldn't call an analouge RGB inteface
'CGA'.
I agree, it's a misnomer, but that's what Wei-Ya calls the unit I have.
Steve
--
4 Jun
4 Jun
4:19 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video
Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a
TTL-level RGBI one?
Don't know, but remember how the 5153 has special
circuitry that turns color index #6 brown?
Most of what are currently called "CGA->VGA" converters are analog RGB
input at CGA/NTSC frequencies to (scan converted) analog RGB output at
VGA frequencies. Which is a good thing because they are build for the
(much larger) classic video game market so they are more veratile than
a strict CGA->VGA converter would be.
S\o you need a small circuit to mix I with the RGB to get an a 3 level
(0,0.5,1) signal that these boards can understand. You could easily
add a "yellow->brown" converter to this circuit by pulling down the
appropriate lines in a resistor divider when color #6 shows up. It
would add 1 chip and two resistors to the design (off the top of my
head).
Eric
5:20 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote:
It's an RGB interface - without support for the 'I'. I also believe it
is not pure TTL, as it understands and responds to varying levels on the
inputs. The RGBI adapter takes advantage of this last fact.
Steve
--
Just picked up
a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the
intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It
doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there
who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface.
Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one?
1:32 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Steven Hirsch wrote:
Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA
converter board with the
intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It
doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there
who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface.
Any link to the circuit? I might want to try this with my IBM CGA. I
also have an Extron unit that I'll eventually hook up, once I can find
cables and/or pinouts.
I still do not have a workable solution to bridge
Apple II (not GS)
composite video. That's the one that really has the non-standard format.
All this talk about the Apple II composite video, and yet I swear I had
at least one or two composite capture cards that could sync to it and
grab it just fine... Iomega Buz perhaps? I have captured video as proof
on a CDROM so maybe that's a solution -- a brooktree or similar cheap
capture card, displaying the results realtime on a VGA monitor?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
4:01 p.m.
All this talk about the Apple II composite video, and
yet I swear I had at
least one or two composite capture cards that could sync to it and grab it
just fine... Iomega Buz perhaps? I have captured video as proof on a CDROM
so maybe that's a solution -- a brooktree or similar cheap capture card,
displaying the results realtime on a VGA monitor?
I missed much of the earlier discussion. I haven't had a problem
display Apple II composite with cheap (cheese block style) video->vga
converters. Of course the color artifacts (colors on the left and
right edges of 40 column characters) are awful, the same way they were
awful on a real composite display. It's amazing how we just accepted
them back in the day. "Wow! it's color!"
The larger problem is how awful 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 output
from all these various converters look when scaled to
1680x1050 on a
22" LCD. Ones that can output 1680x1050p directly are still
well
outside my price range and since they're made for TV even they don't
have thresholded edge sharpening.
Eric
5:10 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Jim Leonard wrote:
Steven Hirsch wrote:
Search comp.sys.cbm in Google groups for a thread titled:
"Fotios' C=128-RGBI-to-VGA hack with IBM-CGA color fix for brown"
Between the postings there and his links, all should become clear.
I'm planning to build this RGBI --> CGA converter this weekend.
Steve
--
Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA
converter board with the
intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It
doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there who
published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface.
Any link to the circuit? I might want to try this with my IBM CGA. I also
have an Extron unit that I'll eventually hook up, once I can find cables
and/or pinouts.
5 Jun
5 Jun
6:25 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
Steven Hirsch wrote:
"Fotios' C=128-RGBI-to-VGA hack with IBM-CGA
color fix for brown"
THANK YOU for this reference! This is exactly what I have been looking
for! (Assuming this will let me hook up IBM CGA output to a VGA monitor)
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
4 Jun
4 Jun
7:16 p.m.
New subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...)
At 3:32 PM -0500 6/4/08, Jim Leonard wrote:
I've used a Canopus ADVC-100 (Video-to-Firewire converter) to display
Apple II video on my PowerMac G5. Simply plugged it in and fired up
iMovie. I don't remember if this was with a IIc, IIgs, or both.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
I still do not
have a workable solution to bridge Apple II (not GS)
composite video. That's the one that really has the non-standard
format.
All this talk about the Apple II composite video, and yet I swear I
had at least one or two composite capture cards that could sync to
it and grab it just fine... Iomega Buz perhaps? I have captured
video as proof on a CDROM so maybe that's a solution -- a brooktree
or similar cheap capture card, displaying the results realtime on a
VGA monitor?
5800
days inactive
5822
days old
28 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
dave06a＠dunfield.com -
derschjo＠msu.edu -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
korpela＠ssl.berkeley.edu -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
snhirsch＠gmail.com -
trixter＠oldskool.org