1 Aug
2001
1 Aug
'01
8:52 p.m.
I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures on my workbench
out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this
has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it.
Any suggestions/tips for cleaning and reassembling older equipment?
Is there a FAQ anywhere? I know Dave M. mentioned using some kind of
alcohol to clean backplane slots on his -8E...
(I know, first rule: "document where everything goes")
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX
2 Aug
2 Aug
12:08 a.m.
Bill,
I don't know your experience with this kind of thing, hopefully it won't
sound to basic. I clean almost all my computers as they usually need
it. It's amazing how much newer a good cleaning can make a computer
look. One of these days, I should write a short faq, or how-to, on
this... it's probably the only subject that I am half qualified to do so
:-)
Unfortunately I've never cleaned a qbus backplane, so I can't really
say. Mine, in my BA213, didn't seem to need it. I guess I'd try the
vacuum first?
On textured plastic use Comet, but don't press too hard, and don't let
it get too dry or you'll scratch the surface. Use with a rag or tooth
brush. Don't use too hard a brush if from some other source.
On boards that don't have to many nooks and crannies stick them in the
dish washer, but without soap, or very very little. The soap tends to
corrode bare metal. I then hang on to them securely and fling the water
off, as best I can, then stick them in front of a fan. If you have an
air compressor you can stick all board in the dishwasher, and then blow
them off.
Anything smooth you can use a rag with dish soap, or laundry soap.
If it is coated steel and ended up rough, resist the temptation to wipe
it with a rag. You will have a article covered in rag colored lint.
You'll have to experiment here. You'll probably want to get your hand
oils off, because it can etch into the steel with time. If it is
completely disassembled just wash it like you would the dishes, and
rinse it off. *Blot* off as much of the water as you can and stick it
infront of a fan.
Small parts can be cleaned with a tooth brush and Fantastic very easily.
Never under estimate how large an item you can clean with a tooth brush
:-)
Anything loose can be vacuumed of course. Compressed air works great
for power supplies and drives.
I took my Vax to the car wash :-) Well only the the plastic panels from
the BA213, actually.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Bill Bradford wrote:
I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures on my workbench
out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this
has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it.
Any suggestions/tips for cleaning and reassembling older equipment?
Is there a FAQ anywhere? I know Dave M. mentioned using some kind of
alcohol to clean backplane slots on his -8E...
(I know, first rule: "document where everything goes")
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX
6:09 a.m.
On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:08:19AM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote:
On boards that don't have to many nooks and
crannies stick them in the
dish washer, but without soap, or very very little. The soap tends to
corrode bare metal. I then hang on to them securely and fling the water
off, as best I can, then stick them in front of a fan. If you have an
air compressor you can stick all board in the dishwasher, and then blow
them off.
Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or
do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ?
I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic,
at least while power was applied. 8-)
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX
9:19 a.m.
On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote:
Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the
*DISHWASHER*? Or
do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ?
I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic,
at least while power was applied. 8-)
My favorite computer cleaning story is one from a fellow who worked at
Fermi National Accelerator Lab, as well as on the doomed Texas SSC. He is
quite a character...
He told me that in the early days of Fermi Lab, one cost-cutting measure
was to NOT build floors in the big shed-like buildings for some of the
detector equipment. Since everything was held up on big gantries and
racks, paying for floors didn't seem so important. Well, then it rained.
A Lot. So my friend shows up to work one morning only to find a LOT of
rack-mounted computer/test/electronic equipment covered in MUD.
His solution? He took each board "out back", hosed each one off with a
garden hose, then dipped each one into a tub of pure alcohol (to get off
mineral deposits left from the water), then set up a clothesline and
clothespinned each board to the line to finish drying. The Boss came out
and almost had a heart attack, but they hooked everything back up and it
worked out great.
In the same group, this fellow had an intern one summer who he told to
dismantle an air deionizer and rebuild it, as it was struggling at the
time. So the intern went off an took care of it. A few days later all
manner of rubber and plastic parts, fittings, etc, started getting brittle
and falling apart, like something out of "The Andromeda Strain". They
hunted all over to figure out what was going on, and eventually disovered
that the intern had reassembled the deionizer as an ionizer, and the thing
was pumping out ozone.
"doh"
- Dan
Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu
Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science
- Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant
- DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher
9:41 a.m.
Bill,
Yes, you read correctly..... circuit boards into the dishwasher :-) I
have heard from various people that many times manufactures will clean
them this way in production.
Use your head of course, if something really looks like it shouldn't get
wet, like something really old that has some cardboard bits, or
whatever, then dont' do it. If you have a board that all the chips are
in sockets, then I might hestitate as well unless you have an air
compressor. Basically you don't want the water to stand on it for any
length of time. I't ok to get them wet if you are able to dry them
quickly.
It's a judgement call really. I've cleaned PC motherboards this way,
but I might not clean old PDP or vax stuff cpu boards that are rare. I
haven't had the need yet.
If they aren't that bad, start out with compressed air, or the vaccum.
Maybe it would be better to leave them slightly dirty?
Oh, I don't hink I have the guts to do the PS in the dishwasher :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Bill Bradford wrote:
On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:08:19AM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote:
On boards that don't have to many nooks and
crannies stick them in the
dish washer, but without soap, or very very little. The soap tends to
corrode bare metal. I then hang on to them securely and fling the water
off, as best I can, then stick them in front of a fan. If you have an
air compressor you can stick all board in the dishwasher, and then blow
them off.
Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the *DISHWASHER*? Or
do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ?
I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic,
at least while power was applied. 8-)
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX 
2:48 p.m.
On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
Use your head of course, if something really looks like it shouldn't
get wet, like something really old that has some cardboard bits, or
whatever, then dont' do it. If you have a board that all the chips
are in sockets, then I might hestitate as well unless you have an air
compressor.
Would a hair dryer work, or would I need some heavy duty source of
high-velocity air? Also, would one need to pull all the chips, clean them
separately, and then reseat them once the board was dry?
What about boards with core on them?
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
8:31 p.m.
To get water out of nooks and crannies, compressed air from an air
compressor is what I use. I have heard that it can create static, but
at that point, I feel if the boards going to go bad it's going to go
bad. I don't think a hair dyer would be all that efficient, unless
maybe you were only concerned with one particular troublesome area on
the board.
Generally I don't pull chips. I haven't had any boards that really
looked that bad. Occasionally I'll pull a chip that has bent pins.
Normally I just push down on them a little bit, just to counter any chip
creep that has taken place.
Unfortunately, I know absolutely zero on core. Never even seen the
stuff in real life :-(
My computer experiences have all ben with 80's and 90's hardware. All
microcomputers up until recently. Even then I'm only working with a
MicroPDP11 and a MicroVax. You guys with PDP8's, old 11's, and other
minis I'm sure will have cleaning issues I haven't dealt with yet...
such as core.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
Would a hair dryer work, or would I need some heavy
duty source of
high-velocity air? Also, would one need to pull all the chips, clean them
separately, and then reseat them once the board was dry?
What about boards with core on them?
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
3 Aug
3 Aug
5:32 a.m.
--- Chad Fernandez <fernande(a)internet1.net> wrote:
Unfortunately, I know absolutely zero on core. Never
even seen the
stuff in real life :-(
My computer experiences have all ben with 80's and 90's hardware. All
microcomputers up until recently. Even then I'm only working with a
MicroPDP11 and a MicroVax. You guys with PDP8's, old 11's, and other
minis I'm sure will have cleaning issues I haven't dealt with yet...
such as core.
My opinion is don't clean it if you don't have to. My first exposure
to core was when I was in High School on a PDP-8/L I picked up at
Dayton for $35. I cleaned the crud out of the machine and saw lots
of fluff and schmutz at the edges of the core where the interconnect
wires on the stack acted as a 10000 micron filter :-) I tried to
carefully pick the fluff out near the edge as best I could, but I
think either a) it was bad when I got it or b) I broke it during cleaning.
Either way, the machine did not pass a simple memory test, so I opened
it up.
Unfortunately, the PCB holes in the stack are only slightly larger than
the wires used to hold it all together. Desoldering with a Ratshack iron
was not working. All I did was cook the fiberglass. In the end, I
cut the stack apart to see what was inside (mind you, this was 15+ years
ago and I'm still sorry I did it)... here's what it looks like now...
Exterior:
http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg
Interior:
http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat1.jpg
http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat2.jpg
Note the missing core - this is what happens when a 16-year-old with
no experience, gains experience the hard way. :-( I wish I'd have
known some of you people then.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
6:07 a.m.
Looks like a soffer piller up real close.... just toss it in the washer
:-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Ethan Dicks wrote:
All I did was cook the fiberglass. In the end, I
cut the stack apart to see what was inside (mind you, this was 15+ years
ago and I'm still sorry I did it)... here's what it looks like now...
Exterior:
http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg
Interior:
http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat1.jpg
http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat2.jpg
Note the missing core - this is what happens when a 16-year-old with
no experience, gains experience the hard way. :-( I wish I'd have
known some of you people then.
-ethan
2 Aug
2 Aug
10:22 a.m.
On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote:
Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the
*DISHWASHER*? Or
do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ?
I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy of anything electronic,
at least while power was applied. 8-)
Always power down while the machine is in the dishwasher.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:31 a.m.
On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:22:13PM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Always power down while the machine is in the
dishwasher.
Of course.. I just always thought water was bad for anything electronic,
regardless of whether power was applied or not..
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX
12:09 p.m.
Of course.. I just always thought water was bad for
anything electronic,
regardless of whether power was applied or not..
Make sure any big Caps are discharged (actually, I'd avoid PSU's as
well), Otherwise, the materials used are all impermeable to water.
Metal rust takes a few days in water to really begin and modern plastics
are waterproof, etc.
I wash in a tub of water to avoid the high temperature steam.
As for drying, I do a sort of toweling off, usually with paper towels, then
air
dry for safety, 1~2 days.
John A.
1:10 p.m.
Nope. As long as any on-board capacitors are discharged, which is fairly
easy to do.
Peace... Sridhar
On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Bill Bradford wrote:
On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:22:13PM -0700, Fred Cisin
(XenoSoft) wrote:
Always power down while the machine is in the
dishwasher.
Of course.. I just always thought water was bad for anything electronic,
regardless of whether power was applied or not..
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX
10:29 a.m.
Did you just tell me to put CIRCUIT BOARDS in the
*DISHWASHER*? Or
do I still have a fever and am delirious.. ?
IT works, many engineer types have told me that dishwashers are pretty
common in small circuit board production to remove flux etc. The key is to
just use water, and to immediately dry the stuff off and not to apply juice
until fully dry.
1:10 p.m.
I've always thought that water was the mortal enemy
of anything
electronic, at least while power was applied. 8-)
Then don't put them in the dishwasher while they are plugged in... :-)
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
1:32 p.m.
>I've always thought that water was the mortal
enemy of anything
>electronic, at least while power was applied. 8-)
On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Megan
wrote:
Then don't put them in the dishwasher while they
are plugged in... :-)
I just checked, and with MY dishwasher (Maytag), I can not close the door
and run it when there is a power cord hanging out.
Therefore, I would be unable to run anything but a [battery powered]
laptop inside the dishwasher while it is running.
It is also a little cramped in there, so I'd have to wash the monitor
separately, and might even need to disassemble larger computers.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
2:09 p.m.
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
I just checked, and with MY dishwasher (Maytag), I can not close the door
and run it when there is a power cord hanging out.
Therefore, I would be unable to run anything but a [battery powered]
laptop inside the dishwasher while it is running.
One field service tip... Slam the door harder. If it doesn't seal well
catch water with bucket. If it cuts off power coard hardwire to
electrical mains.
Bill
---
Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a
villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
2:27 p.m.
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8:44 p.m.
Something I thought of that I hadn't mentioned yet. When letting the
remaing water, that you couldn't fling off, dry in fron of than fan,
stand the boards on end so gravity helps too. Maybe in a 1/2 hour or so
turn the boards around/upside down/etc. That way water won't collect in
a spot where it can't run off.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
9:24 a.m.
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6:28 p.m.
This may sound unusual, but I find that running any type of enclosure or
case through the dishwasher with Cascade detergent works *wonders*.
Just make sure that the plate warmer is off, and you use the "mild
cycle".
Jeff
On 02 Aug 2001 00:52:54 -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures
on my workbench
out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this
has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it.
Any suggestions/tips for cleaning and reassembling older equipment?
Is there a FAQ anywhere? I know Dave M. mentioned using some kind of
alcohol to clean backplane slots on his -8E...
(I know, first rule: "document where everything goes")
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX
7:37 p.m.
On 02 Aug 2001 00:52:54 -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
I've got a stack of 11/03 / 11/23 qbus enclosures
on my workbench
out in my garage, and I've *never* seen hardware so *dirty* - this
has a good 10-15 years worth of dust and dirt on it.
After removing the dust in a way that won't cause any electrostatic
discharge to zap anything, and removing all of the boards and other
electrical components, take the cabinets, etc. outside on a warm sunny
day and give them a good blast from the garden hose. Then, let them
dry in the sun, which shouldn't take too long. Simple Green seems to
work wonders on dirty plastic cabinets.
It seems to me that soaking extremely dirty circuit boards with a
garden hose, as long as they have no stickers, or EPROM covers, on
them, whcih could come loose, and then letting them dry thoroughly on
a warm afternoon, should cause no problems. Any thoughts on this?
Note: you might want to be careful with the dust. I don't mean to
sound like an alarmist, but in a small percentage of collected
systems, dangers may lurk. Some dust and residue may cause no
problems other than to irritate allergies; however, carcinogens and
other biohazards may lurk in some dust.
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
8:39 p.m.
Sometimes that will be my first step in case cleaning. Anything that is
too big or is still dirty I take to the tub and use Comet Cleanser.
In the dishwasher I use very little soap (Cascade here too) if I am
cleaning anything metal. The Cascade will make it corrode as it dries.
I found that out the hard way while cleaning a PS/2 Model 9577 with all
the steal and aluminum bits. I had to hand wash the stuff over again,
rubbing off all the white corrosion that had formed.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Jeffrey Ingber wrote:
This may sound unusual, but I find that running any type of enclosure or
case through the dishwasher with Cascade detergent works *wonders*.
Just make sure that the plate warmer is off, and you use the "mild
cycle".
Jeff
8363
days inactive
8364
days old
23 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dlinder＠uiuc.edu -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
fernande＠internet1.net -
jhingber＠ix.netcom.com -
jss＠subatomix.com -
mbg＠world.std.com -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
mrbill＠mrbill.net -
pechter＠bg-tc-ppp47.monmouth.com -
rdd＠smart.net -
vance＠ikickass.org