30 Oct
2006
30 Oct
'06
6:51 p.m.
>Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare
animals, esp mainframes,
>since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there
>is even less software that has survived. CHM didn't start seriously
>collecting documentation nor software prior to the move to the West Coast in
>the 90's. While they have an impressive collection of hardware, and a pretty
>decent collection of US computer documentation now, the software holdings
>pre 1975 are minimal.
How many 1970s era or earlier mainframes are actually up and running
(or in working condition) somewhere? I have not really followed mainframe
collecting, although I did work on IBM 370 and 30xx mainframes in the 1980s.
Ashley
31 Oct
31 Oct
12:55 a.m.
Ashley Carder wrote:
Hmm, define 'mainframe' I suppose :-) I mean, we've got the Elliott 803 (umm,
1958 I think) and the Marconi TAC (design was 1959, ours was built 1964 IIRC)
- both of those are in need of some trivial maintenance right now but are
otherwise kept in running condition. But when I think of mainframe I think of
processor + storage along with a bunch of terminals attached; both of those
systems are more data processors (albeit general purpose ones) than something
capable of supporting several human users.
Then we've got the ICL 2966 - I've never managed to get a firm date for that
one, although I believe it's late 1970s. That one's definitely recognisable as
a mainframe :-) I think we have 40 cabinets for it; it's small by ICL
standards, but I think it's probably physically the largest machine in public
hands in the UK. Non-runner at present and needs a lot of work, but getting it
operational again is a firm project; we've got a large spares cache and all
the docs, plus have been talking with various ex-ICL people over the last year
who may be able to help out.
> Surviving
systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes,
> since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there
> is even less software that has survived. CHM didn't start seriously
> collecting documentation nor software prior to the move to the West Coast in
> the 90's. While they have an impressive collection of hardware, and a pretty
> decent collection of US computer documentation now, the software holdings
> pre 1975 are minimal.
How many 1970s era or earlier mainframes are actually up and running
(or in working condition) somewhere? I have not really followed mainframe
collecting, although I did work on IBM 370 and 30xx mainframes in the 1980s.
I used to work for a computer repair place back in the early 90s - all small
stuff it was; various home machines and the like. One day the owner got an IBM
370 in though; he'd agreed to clear out a business premises that was closing
and was after all the terminals and standalone machines so that he could sell
them on, but had to take the 370 too.
Annoyingly, he had no clue how to make money out of this big 370 though - it
got offered to me for free if I just hauled it away for him, but of course I
didn't have the contacts that I do now and so I couldn't do anything with it
either. I seem to remember it sitting in the warehouse for a few months, then
the scrapper came in and hauled it off to the crusher :(
cheers
Jules
8:05 a.m.
On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 02:55 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote:
Annoyingly, he had no clue how to make money out of
this big 370 though - it
got offered to me for free if I just hauled it away for him, but of course I
didn't have the contacts that I do now and so I couldn't do anything with it
either. I seem to remember it sitting in the warehouse for a few months, then
the scrapper came in and hauled it off to the crusher :(
That's painful, isn't it? When I was attending Michigan State
University, the computer we used for our programming projects was a
Control Data 6500, later upgraded to a 6600. Even later, they upgraded
to a CDC Cyber 750, and needed to remove the (then) 6600. They tried to
sell it. It was a problem, because they had, essentially, built one end
of the Computer Center around it, and whoever took it would have to take
out at least one wall, and re-build the wall when they were done. They
had no takers at their price. Eventually, they got down to offering the
computer for free to anyone who would take it out, and leave the place
as they found it. Again, no takers. Finally, the scrappers came in
with chainsaws, and made small enough pieces they didn't have to remove
a wall. Very sad. The machine had no stack, so I wrote one for it, and
developed a stack oriented p-machine for it. If only I had had a spare
barn I wasn't using...
Peace,
Warren E. Wolfe
wizard at voyager.net
10:20 a.m.
On 31 Oct 2006 at 11:05, Warren Wolfe wrote:
That's painful, isn't it? When I was
attending Michigan State
University, the computer we used for our programming projects was a
Control Data 6500, later upgraded to a 6600. . They tried to
sell it.
Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would anyone in their right mind
want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply
for cooling and cordwood modules that would go bad if the phase of
the moon was wrong.
I don't understand the deal about "writing a stack"for the 6000.
There was Algol-60 at least since 1965 or so, not to mention a host
of other languages that needed to support recursion and local
variables. So I'm a bit mystified.
By far, the neatest feat I'd ever seen done with that system was a
COBOL compiler and run-time implemented in a PPU. Bizarre and lots
and lots of overlaid code of course, but a great illustration of how
much could be done with 4K of 12 bit words.
Cheers,
Chuck
11:58 a.m.
On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 10:20 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I don't understand the deal about "writing a
stack"for the 6000.
There was Algol-60 at least since 1965 or so, not to mention a host
of other languages that needed to support recursion and local
variables. So I'm a bit mystified.
In a macro assembly language module, with "PUSH" and "POP" that
worked on a data stack, and "CALL" and "RETURN" which worked on a
program stack. Didn't say it was earth-shaking... just handy as all
get-out.
Peace,
Warren E. Wolfe
wizard at voyager.net
12:22 p.m.
On 31 Oct 2006 at 14:58, Warren Wolfe wrote:
In a macro assembly language module, with
"PUSH" and "POP" that
worked on a data stack, and "CALL" and "RETURN" which worked on a
program stack. Didn't say it was earth-shaking... just handy as all
get-out.
Ah, okay, now I get it. 6000 COMPASS did have a very powerful macro
capability. It was usually the case when building any of the
standard product set, that most of the build time was spent crunching
through macro (or micro) sequences.
I worked on a project to translate COBOL dialects. I took the
approach of designing a lexical processor and its instruction set,
then implemented the whole thing as COMPASS macros, first intrepreted
(to debug) by a small routine, then implemented as machine-language
instruction sequences.
So, one could have instructions such as:
IQTF T_COMMA,NEXT,SYNTAX_ERR
which was "query if the current input token is a comma ; if true,
call the get-next-token routine, otherwise, jump to the syntax-error
routine.
Cheers,
Chuck
2:51 p.m.
Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would
anyone in their right mind
want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply
for cooling and cordwood modules that would go bad if the phase of
the moon was wrong.
Why would anyone in their right mind want to drive a 57 Chevy when a
nice Honda is available?
Why would anyone in their right mind want to operate a steam
locomotive when a nice GM diesel is available?
Why would anyone in their right mind want to read a newspaper when a
Google news is available?
Why would anyone in their right mind want to refinish a table when a
Ikea is available?
Why would anyone in their right mind want to cook a nice meal when
Applebees is available?
Because it is enjoyable?
--
Will
3:23 p.m.
On 31 Oct 2006 at 17:51, William Donzelli wrote:
Why would anyone in their right mind want to drive a
57 Chevy when a
nice Honda is available?
Dunno--a couple of years ago, I traded a 56 Chevy for a Volvo and was
(and still am) much happier--and a lot cleaner.
Why would anyone in their right mind want to read a
newspaper when a
Google news is available?
One of the local newspapers folded up shop this week, so if you've
got a good answer to that one, I'm sure the newspaper business would
love to hear about it.
Why would anyone in their right mind want to refinish
a table when a
Ikea is available?
Because Ikea doesn't make solid teak tables?
Why would anyone in their right mind want to cook a
nice meal when
Applebees is available?
Because I can cook better than the folks at Applebees--and I don't
have to leave home to eat a good meal made from fresh local produce
instead of whatever it is that Applebee's uses?
Cheers,
Chuck
3:47 p.m.
On 31 Oct 2006 at 11:05, Warren Wolfe wrote:
Since when have any of us been in our right mind here?
-tony
That's painful, isn't it? When I was
attending Michigan State
University, the computer we used for our programming projects was a
Control Data 6500, later upgraded to a 6600. . They tried to
sell it.
Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would anyone in their right mind
want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply 
4:26 p.m.
On 31/10/06 23:47, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Quote of the year, there :oD
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
On 31 Oct 2006 at 11:05, Warren Wolfe wrote:
Since when have any of us been in our right mind here? That's painful, isn't it? When I was
attending Michigan State
University, the computer we used for our programming projects was a
Control Data 6500, later upgraded to a 6600. . They tried to
sell it.
Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would anyone in their right mind
want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply
10:59 a.m.
On 31/10/06 08:55, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Then we've got the ICL 2966 - I've never
managed to get a firm date for that
one, although I believe it's late 1970s. That one's definitely recognisable as
I started in Operations on a 2966 in 1982/3-ish and they'd just upgraded
from a 2900 which was still spread all over the
computer room and outlying
areas. I'd love to say 'happy days' but I was
the printer and tape monkey so
didn't have THAT much fun.
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
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wizard＠voyager.net