23 Oct
2015
23 Oct
'15
4:49 a.m.
From: Alexandre Souza
Easily done if I had the original part on hand
We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it would be easy to cast molds
(the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of the front
console).
The real issue in any front panel recreation is going to be the switches (not
the plastic toggles, the actual electrical device). Both the /45 and /70 used
the now-apparently-unobtainium version with the intergral metal plate to hold
the switch in place in a metal holder plate. So a recreation front panel is
going to have to have some new mechanical design, to allow use of standard
micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the plastic
toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the original toggle switches.
(That's all a bit difficult to describe in words; a picture will make it
obvious, if anyone wants to know more.)
I wonder how big an order of switches would be required before some
switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made the
'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an old
room....
From: David C. Jenner
How about making a version for a REAL PDP-11/70 front
panel, and one
for a REAL PDP-11/45 front panel, for those of us who have such stashed
away waiting for the right simulator to come along...
To do that is going to require exactly emulating the interface to the CPU,
which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all come
over flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors, so that won't be hard,
but I doubt the interface is documented, someone will have to puzzle it out
by reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic
analyzer.
Also, powering the front console requires an unusual AMP connector shell,
although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge
the power connection...
Noel
23 Oct
23 Oct
5:39 a.m.
I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive. I have
a few that I used on recent project.
What I found hard was obtaining centre off switches as it appear from this
picture:-
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?46651-hi-PDP-11-45-fo
und-at-Attic-What-is-this
that PDP-11 Switches may be flipped up or down, or is that not true?
I believe they were made by C&K who are still in business. I wonder if it is
worth approaching them.
The double pole version appears to be still "stocked", I see Farnell has
some in the UK
http://cpc.farnell.com/c-k-components/7203j50-zqe/switch-body-ctr-off/dp/SW0
4163
http://www.newark.com/c-k-components/7203j50-zqe/switch-body-ctr-off/dp/99K0
440?ost=7203J50&categoryId=&categoryName=
but they are a tad expensive in the US....
.. still working out how to build a front panel for his SBC6120 as FPC6120
kits are even more un-obtainium than the switches....
Dave Wade
G4UGM
come over
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
Chiappa
Sent: 23 October 2015 12:49
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans...
the
From: Alexandre Souza
Easily done if I had the original part on hand
We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it would be easy to cast
molds (the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of front console).
The real issue in any front panel recreation is going to be the switches
(not
the plastic toggles, the actual electrical device).
Both the /45 and /70
used the
now-apparently-unobtainium version with the intergral
metal plate to hold
the switch in place in a metal holder plate. So a recreation front panel
is going
to have to have some new mechanical design, to allow
use of standard
micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the
plastic
toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the
original toggle switches.
(That's all a bit difficult to describe in words; a picture will make it
obvious, if
anyone wants to know more.)
I wonder how big an order of switches would be required before some
switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made
the 'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an
old
room....
stashed
From: David C. Jenner
> How about making a version for a REAL PDP-11/70 front panel, and one
> for a REAL PDP-11/45 front panel, for those of us who have such away waiting
for the right simulator to come along...
To do that is going to require exactly emulating the interface to the CPU,
which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors, so
that won't be hard, but
I
doubt the interface is documented, someone will have
to puzzle it out by
reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic
analyzer.
Also, powering the front console requires an unusual AMP connector shell,
although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge
the power connection...
Noel
6:19 a.m.
Dave wrote...
------
I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive.
------
But as Noel wrote... the problem isn't the CK switches as far as the "model
number" on them goes. They can be found pretty easy. The problem is that CK
switches used in these systems were custom made with a flat metal plate at
the bottom of the handle (even though they had a standard CK part number on
them), which is what was used to attach them to the metal reinforcement
strip.
So you can find a "7301" (or whatever the model number is on these CK
switches), but good luck finding any "7301"'s with the custom metal plate.
As Noel said, a new mechanical design would need to be made.
J
6:28 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West
Sent: 23 October 2015 14:19
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans...
Dave wrote...
------
I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive.
------
But as Noel wrote... the problem isn't the CK switches as far as the
"model
number" on them goes. They can be found pretty
easy. The problem is that
CK switches used in these systems were custom made with a flat metal plate
at the bottom of the handle (even though they had a standard CK part
number on them), which is what was used to attach them to the metal
reinforcement strip.
The ones currently on E-Bay looks very like the ones I bought and which are
available from Farnell/Element 14 with a plate and clip so they slot into a
back plate.
Are you sure it's a custom plate?
So you can find a "7301" (or whatever the model number is on these CK
switches), but good luck finding any "7301"'s with the custom metal plate.
As Noel said, a new mechanical design would need to be made.
J
7:26 a.m.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Dave wrote...
------
I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive.
Any of these C&K-type switches are likely to sell for $4-$6 each as
new (I've gotten fistfuls of similar ones at Hamfests for $0.75 or
less, but it's very hit-miss; not the sort of thing you could base a
product off of).
But as Noel wrote... the problem isn't the CK
switches as far as the "model
number" on them goes.
Yes. The bodies are very standard, but the momentaries can be more
difficult to find, even if they have SPDT on-on bodies. The 4-digit
number on the side will tell much. AFAIK, there are 2 types used in a
real DEC front panel, with some of the momentaries mounted facing one
way, some facing the other way.
The problem is that CK
switches used in these systems were custom made with a flat metal plate at
the bottom of the handle (even though they had a standard CK part number on
them), which is what was used to attach them to the metal reinforcement
strip.
I don't think it's a DEC-custom clip design, but it is not C&K's most
popular mounting scheme.
So you can find a "7301" (or whatever the
model number is on these CK
switches), but good luck finding any "7301"'s with the custom metal plate.
Essentially, yes. 7301s are easy enough to find (at the
aforementioned $5-$6 each), but not with the panel clips.
As Noel said, a new mechanical design would need to be
made.
A new mechanical design would allow for the use of a wider range of
switches that would be more available.
For paddle-type switches (with the small stub for mating with a DEC
toggle handle), what I've seen as more common have larger metal
"frame" that is also bonded into the switch stack like the panel clips
DEC used. The frame has solder lugs that mount on the PCB next to the
signal leads, giving a bigger footprint on the PCB. I have a few
handfuls of those, with paddles, that I picked up at Dayton and other
places. It's the style that Bob Armstrong used with the original
FP6120 (for the SBC6120RC he later changed to simple toggle switches
with round panel holes and knurled nuts because those are far more
common). These "framed" switches won't easily mount in a real DEC
front panel, so they don't help the person who is trying to restore a
real front panel, but they would be a good choice for a from-scratch
replica. You still end up with over $100 in switch bodies, but that's
just the way these are.
-ethan
8:27 a.m.
On 2015-10-23 14:39, Dave G4UGM wrote:
I think that the switches can be found, but they might
be expensive. I have
a few that I used on recent project.
What I found hard was obtaining centre off switches as it appear from this
picture:-
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?46651-hi-PDP-11-45-fo
und-at-Attic-What-is-this
that PDP-11 Switches may be flipped up or down, or is that not true?
Not sure what you mean by that. The switches only have two positions,
though. They are either in the down position, or in the up position.
Some were spring-loaded and returned to the original position when you
let go of them.
However, if you were to consider all the switches in one line as being a
neutral line, most switches moved up from that position, while a few
moved down. Think of them as being mounted upside down, perhaps?
Johnny
I believe they were made by C&K who are still in business. I wonder if it is
worth approaching them.
The double pole version appears to be still "stocked", I see Farnell has
some in the UK
http://cpc.farnell.com/c-k-components/7203j50-zqe/switch-body-ctr-off/dp/SW0
4163
http://www.newark.com/c-k-components/7203j50-zqe/switch-body-ctr-off/dp/99K0
440?ost=7203J50&categoryId=&categoryName=
but they are a tad expensive in the US....
.. still working out how to build a front panel for his SBC6120 as FPC6120
kits are even more un-obtainium than the switches....
Dave Wade
G4UGM
come over
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
Chiappa
Sent: 23 October 2015 12:49
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans...
the
From: Alexandre Souza
Easily done if I had the original part on hand
We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it would be easy to cast
molds (the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of front console).
The real issue in any front panel recreation is going to be the switches
(not
the plastic toggles, the actual electrical
device). Both the /45 and /70
used the
now-apparently-unobtainium version with the
intergral metal plate to hold
the switch in place in a metal holder plate. So a recreation front panel
is going
to have to have some new mechanical design, to
allow use of standard
micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the
plastic
toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the
original toggle switches.
(That's all a bit difficult to describe in words; a picture will make it
obvious, if
anyone wants to know more.)
I wonder how big an order of switches would be required before some
switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made
the 'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an
old
room....
stashed
From: David C. Jenner
> How about making a version for a REAL PDP-11/70 front panel, and one
> for a REAL PDP-11/45 front panel, for those of us who have such away
waiting for the right simulator to come along...
To do that is going to require exactly emulating the interface to the CPU,
which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors,
so that won't be hard, but
I
doubt the interface is documented, someone will
have to puzzle it out by
reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic
analyzer.
Also, powering the front console requires an unusual AMP connector shell,
although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge
the power connection...
Noel
7:37 a.m.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it
would be easy to cast molds
(the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of the front
console).
Casting is one option. Another is CNC out of dense PVC foam.
The real issue in any front panel recreation is going
to be the switches (not
the plastic toggles, the actual electrical device). Both the /45 and /70 used
the now-apparently-unobtainium version with the intergral metal plate to hold
the switch in place in a metal holder plate.
It's probably possible to find small quantities of the right switch,
but not 2 dozen per panel.
So a recreation front panel is
going to have to have some new mechanical design, to allow use of standard
micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the plastic
toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the original toggle switches.
The pivot and attachment method is "standard" for C&K paddle switches.
You can still get switches with that arrangement, but with a different
mounting method.
I wonder how big an order of switches would be
required before some
switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made the
'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an old
room....
Good question... is it 1,000? 5,000?
To do that is going to require exactly emulating the
interface to the CPU,
which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all come
over flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors, so that won't be hard,
but I doubt the interface is documented, someone will have to puzzle it out
by reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic
analyzer.
It's been done at least twice
6809-based interface (I happen to have 2 of these, so I'm good here)
http://www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html
Blinkenbone.
http://retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone
http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone (more than just 11/70)
Also, powering the front console requires an unusual
AMP connector shell,
although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge
the power connection...
That's a "standard" shell as used in several DEC power supplies and
for 20mA TTY connections. They get brought up on the list from time
to time. I happen to have a basket of them, but they are somewhat
rare on the open market.
-ethan
3348
days inactive
3348
days old
6 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
bqt＠update.uu.se -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
jwest＠classiccmp.org