If you look closely when 'RUNNING' the program, you will see a GPL notice .... I'm actually commenting heavilly the source before release it .... Btw I have already released the FULL source of an HP85/86 emulator .... Before yawning ... use what we 'gave' you for free even a 'binary' : I'm not obliged to put this program on the net afterall !!! Olivier (not happy) 2011/3/2 Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>:

Great. I should like to put an eye on the source code when you have it ready. Regards Sergio 2011/3/2 Olivier De Smet <olivier.2.smet at gmail.com>

So you're saying I have to download a binary-only program and run it on a machine I don't own under an OS I don't have a license for to see this? In any case. I don't believe a binary-only program can be released under the GPL, certainly not under the GPL that I am familiar with. I learnt the hard way, well over 30 years ago, not to trust that vapourware will ever sxist :-). More seriously, I will be very interested to see this source code when you release it. Which as I have told you in private mail is totally useless to me, and to a number of other people here. On this list all the world is most definitely not a PC, caertianly not one running a proprietory OS. Inded you are not. Just as I am not obliged to share the schematics I trace out, I am not obliged to help people track down faults, I am not obliged to do anything on this list. I do so because I happen to beleive that a community like tyhis one benefits a lot form sharing information. Nobody can know everything or do evertything. But a schematic from one member, a bit of sourc code from another, a trick form athried, and so on and soemthing actuially gets done. I have, unfortuantely, come to the conclusion that the main reason people won't release their source code for free programs written non-commercially is that they are ashamed of it. And that means I am unlikely to wanty to trust the binary, even if I can run it. -tony

And just how am I supposed to do that? I have had another look at the web page for this emulator this morning. At that time there was no mention on it (that I could see) of the GPL, or any mention of the availability of the source code at any point in the future. So why on earthshould I assume this (fairly large) binary distibution, of a machine and OS that I don't own, is ever goign to be of any use to me? If you're going to flame, would you please flame the right person. The first person to moan about the lack of sourves was, IIRC, Al Kossow. Yes. Andthis particular jackass has realised what he's beeing doing wrong for the last 15 or so years. And that is going to change right now. Yes, that;'s right, ignore me. Until you need a pinout, or a schemaitc, or a toubleshooting tip, or a ROM dump, or... And then demand them from me. And I am still trying to work out why Olivier sent me an e-mail message with a jpeg file attached that he claimed was a pascal program to dump a ROM from a machine I don't own and have never claimed to own. I never received a reply when I asked what was (and having a text-only display makes it rather difficult to display images). -tony

The nice thing about this list is that there is plenty of knowledge to go around. For almost any topic that matters, there are at least a few listmember experts on the topic that can help. We have several analog video/CRT experts, several (lots!) floppy experts, several power supply experts, and so on. -- Will

Yes, but be caeful what you wish for. It may not be what you expect... Could you please answer me one quesiton though. Why are you not also flaming Al Kossow since he was the first person to moan that this emualtor was binary only. And used words like 'Yawn'. And said he was holding back various donated items of software until sombody releases an open CS/80 implementation. That was _NOT_ me, OK... Your loss, not mine, I can assure you. I never said you had. Plenty of people do though, without bothering to check what facilities I have, what OSes I am running, that sort of thing. -tony

Yes, agreed. But I think there;s a big difference between a binary-only distribution of a program and a program which is only distributed as a bianry. Now, IANAL, but I take that to mean that it's quite legal for me to (say) give you a disk with a GCC binary on it for a particular system (GCC being a GPL'ed program, of coruse) provided I either offer you the source for trh ecost of copying it, or tell you where to get it from This is met in spirit, and I suspect in letter, by web siters that have one link to download a pre-configured program to run on Windows, say, and a separate link to donwload the source code for it. However, in the case of this HP9000/200 emualtor, the soruce code is not yet available to download. I happen to believe the author is honest, and that he will release the source code when he's tidied it up, but right now I can get the binary but not the soruce. Of course I sincerely hope nothing like this happens, but I can think of many reasons why the author would be unable to relase the souce code. So at this point, I do fail to see how the program, binary only, no source avaialble, can be released under the GPL. Once the source is available, of course it can be/ -tony

2011/3/2 Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>: Yes, actually PC only ... but soon you could get the C (not C++, not even C#) source to port it to other architectures (Btw, I used the free tools from Microsoft, so there is no added cost to compile it) As I don't find any free Amigo/SS80 implementation, yes I do it myself ... (I implemented only SS80 part of CS80 protocol, it was enough) For other arch, I will port it myself to Xillinx FPGA in verilog later, as I have done for a HP86 emulator. You can get C sources at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hpseries80 and verilog sources at : http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hpseries80/fpga-hp86b I hope this will help you to port to other archs I don't put the source now, because it's a 0.01 release (see when running binary) only able to run basic and pascal since 3 weeks. At least 20 years later you could run some stuff without having the real machine (I don't have the real machine myself) Olivier

By the way... What's your idea about this development for the future ? Do you need or accept some kind of help about some matter related with it ? Sergio 2011/3/5 Olivier De Smet <olivier.2.smet at gmail.com>

The GPL V3.0 licence is included in the source archive of course. For the other project, someone already get the verilog HP86 in FPGA I have on my site to try to make this kind of stuff for amigo protocol. For fpga, I use a digilent evaluation board and the free tools from xillinx (they exists for windows and linux) The source for the whole HP86+HP9121/HP9895+serial line in verilog is gpl too .... It not very complicated, just some componentt to adjust levels, some buffers to map the inout nature of HPIB lines into IN part and OUT part for the fpga (it better this way), and thats all, because I make a real 'hpib like' bus inside the system, but with the assumption that the hp86 is ALWAYS the system controller (it simplified some stuff), after that it use a free sd driver For SS80 and CS80 protocol, I think the verilog part will be easier to do, SS80 is more regular than amigo protocol at command level But I don't have any news since last september I think, so one day, perhaps I will try myself. Btw as you 'distmantle' regularly your series 200 machines, do you think if it is possible to dump the rom of the character generators in the alpha part of the display board ? It could be nice to have 'real' font in emulation for 9816 and 9836 as it actually for 9837 emulation. Olivier 2011/3/5 Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>:

For the SS80 protocol in a microcontroller, it could be done easelly. If you look at hp-7908.c file, there is very few microsoft dependancy (only writing and reading from a file which should be replaced by reading and writing to an sd card) the rest is just 2 circular buffers (it could be one of 9 bits data), a state machine and some functions to read and write to the buffers. Read and write from those buffers will be the more delicate to make because they should completely implement the 3 wires handshake of HPIB. On the emulator I only made the 3 wire hanshake for controller to instrument it was enough. By looking at picture from hpmuseum.net, i think that every model got is own charset as they don't share the same size of charcell on display. 9816 got one, 9826 another one, 9836 & 9836C certainly the same, 9837 another one should have the same charset (but who knows) as the 9836. Olivier 2011/3/5 Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>:

This looks really cool. I'm hoping that now that the source has been released, the holy wars can end and Al will release some software to us so that we can enjoy this new toy (or tool) Mike

I asusme you mean the Australian site (http://www.hpmuseum.net/). There's been the BASIC and Pascal systems for the 9000/200s there fro a long time (and very useful they are too), but I thought you said you had some more stuff to release... -tony

Any way to get a multiForth (1.03 or 2.0) or a HP-UX V5 disk dump ? 2011/3/6 Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>:

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:56 AM, SPC <spedraja at ono.com> wrote: It certainly would be, but given that it's pretty close to a vanilla System V port, I'm not sure if permission to actually distribute it could ever be obtained. Mike

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Frank McConnell <fmc at reanimators.org> wrote: Interesting. A lot of the stuff I've seen seems to indicate that the SUNOS and Modcal stuff was for the FOCUS-based 500 series releases, while the 68K-based releases for the Integral and the 200 series were a bit more generic. If the 68K stuff also used the proprietary HP stuff, that just makes it more interesting. Still the presence of Sys V userland components still mean that you'd need a Unix license to use the thing... Mike

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:51 AM, Frank McConnell <fmc at reanimators.org> wrote: Indeed there was an HP-UX 5.0 for the Series 200/300/Integral (it was actually the last version to run on the 200 and the Integral). Given that this thread is about the 200 series, that's the version we were referring to. Mike

On 3/10/11 3:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: Not so; Forth systems are everywhere. Don't forget OpenFirmware! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

The software stored in the HP Museum is in Teledisk Format. What must we do to convert it in something usable with the emulator ? Thanks Sergio