17 Nov
2004
17 Nov
'04
3:08 a.m.
Why not make it :
10 years: Vintage
20 years: classic
25 years: antique
or something similar to that?
Isa
17 Nov
17 Nov
5:17 a.m.
The terms are too similar, people will just get more confused.
All I intended to do when I started this discussion topic was to point out the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and Pentiums as "vintage" (or any
other synonym). But then others observed back that I was being short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age, "vintage" just means "anything
considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me. But I do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider between what's just "old"
and
what's truly vintage.
--- Ladyelec(a)aol.com wrote:
Why not make it :
10 years: Vintage
20 years: classic
25 years: antique
or something similar to that?
Isa
=====
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5:53 a.m.
Am 17 Nov 2004 8:17 meinte Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter:
--- Ladyelec(a)aol.com wrote:
> Why not make it :
> 10 years: Vintage
> 20 years: classic
> 25 years: antique
> or something similar to that?
> Isa
The terms are too similar, people will just get more
confused.
Agreed.
All I intended to do when I started this discussion
topic was to point out the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and Pentiums as "vintage" (or any
other synonym). But then others observed back that I was being short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age, "vintage" just means "anything
considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me. But I do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider between what's just "old"
and
what's truly vintage.
Well, the important part was to get the off the actual stuff.
Everything else is hard to do just by years. Shure, a 1994 PC
might be about where you still may use it, and more important,
might not look interesting at all from a colectors view. On
the other hand, especialy you may agree that almost any kind
0f 94ish PDA is vintage from todays view. Isn't it?
In fact, for VCFe the same 10 year limit is enfoced (exempts
need very good reasoning). Everythin below is NADA, everything
above up to everyones own judgement. So, I'm expecting PCs to
show up soon.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
6:23 a.m.
>>>> On the other hand, especialy you may
agree that almost any kind of 94ish
PDA is vintage from todays view. Isn't it?
Yes, as no one (who is sane) uses a Newton or HP200LX for day-to-day business.
LOL, that kind of comment nearly got me attacked at the "10th anniversary of
the Newton" celebration at MIT last year. For safety I avoid the HP200 mailing
list entirely. :)
--- Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)siemens.com> wrote:
Am 17 Nov 2004 8:17 meinte Computer Collector E-Mail
Newsletter:
=====
Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter!
-- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address
-- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us
-- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all
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585 readers and counting!
--- Ladyelec(a)aol.com wrote:
> Why not make it :
> 10 years: Vintage
> 20 years: classic
> 25 years: antique
> or something similar to that?
> Isa
The terms are too similar, people will just get
more confused.
Agreed.
All I intended to do when I started this
discussion topic was to point out
the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and
Pentiums as "vintage" (or
any
other synonym). But then others observed back
that I was being
short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age,
"vintage" just means "anything considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me. But I
do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider
between what's just "old"
and
what's truly vintage.
Well, the important part was to get the off the actual stuff.
Everything else is hard to do just by years. Shure, a 1994 PC
might be about where you still may use it, and more important,
might not look interesting at all from a colectors view. On
the other hand, especialy you may agree that almost any kind
0f 94ish PDA is vintage from todays view. Isn't it?
In fact, for VCFe the same 10 year limit is enfoced (exempts
need very good reasoning). Everythin below is NADA, everything
above up to everyones own judgement. So, I'm expecting PCs to
show up soon.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
6:37 a.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
>>> Actually, the 200LX was a kickass
handheld.
Well yes, but the keyword is "was"...
--- Tore S Bekkedal <toresbe(a)ifi.uio.no> wrote:
On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 09:23 -0800, Computer Collector
E-Mail Newsletter
wrote:
=====
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Contact us at news(a)computercollector.com
585 readers and counting!
Yes, as no one (who is sane) uses a Newton or
HP200LX for day-to-day
business.
Actually, the 200LX was a kickass handheld. I'd give the world for one.
--
Tore S Bekkedal <toresbe(a)ifi.uio.no>
7:03 a.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
Evan, Evan, Evan.
You know better than to be making silly comments like this. There are
many people who still use their 200LX daily for many quite useful
purposes.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
>>>
Actually, the 200LX was a kickass handheld.
Well yes, but the keyword is "was"...
7:18 a.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
...Just as plenty of people still use their 286, and that's a GOOD thing, if it
meets their needs. Heck, I still play my Atari 2600 a couple of times a week,
as the games meet MY needs. But as much as I live for vintage PDAs, my "daily
driver" is a modern PocketPC.
Obviously I want to advocate our hobby, or I wouldn't put so much time and
effort into the newsletter. I think it's terrific that some people actually do
use vintage systems for modern purposes, in fact, I wish more of those people
would come forward so I can write about them. However one thing I never
pretend is that vintage systems are actually "better" than today's.
- Evan (happily using his XP machine and Yahoo email)
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail
Newsletter wrote:
Evan, Evan, Evan.
You know better than to be making silly comments like this. There are
many people who still use their 200LX daily for many quite useful
purposes.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Actually, the 200LX was a kickass handheld.
Well yes, but the keyword is "was"... International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org
]
=====
Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter!
-- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address
-- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us
-- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all
Visit the museums directory and read about past events
at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com
Contact us at news(a)computercollector.com
585 readers and counting!
8:25 a.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
Obviously I want to advocate our hobby, or I
wouldn't put so much time and
effort into the newsletter. I think it's terrific that some people actually do
use vintage systems for modern purposes, in fact, I wish more of those people
would come forward so I can write about them. However one thing I never
pretend is that vintage systems are actually "better" than today's.
You don't have to pretend. In some cases they are.
This also transcends technology. I prefer to write my to-do lists and
notes on a pad of lined paper. It doesn't require batteries and it
doesn't break when I drop it. Unfortunately, I still manage to lose it
from time to time (I just finally found it again last
night :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
9:28 a.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
Yeah but the pen and paper are still modern technology (as they're both still
in mass production and reasonable to use for the purpose at hand, in this case,
organizing)... DOS clamshells are not (LOL, but again that's with the "but I
love them anyway" qualifier).
Evan (happily admiring his Atari Portfolio and HP95)
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail
Newsletter wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously I want to advocate our hobby, or I
wouldn't put so much time and
effort into the newsletter. I think it's terrific that some people
actually
do
use vintage systems for modern purposes, in fact,
I wish more of those
people
would come forward so I can write about them.
However one thing I never
pretend is that vintage systems are actually "better" than today's.
You don't have to pretend. In some cases they are.
This also transcends technology. I prefer to write my to-do lists and
notes on a pad of lined paper. It doesn't require batteries and it
doesn't break when I drop it. Unfortunately, I still manage to lose it
from time to time (I just finally found it again last night :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org
]
=====
Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter!
-- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address
-- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us
-- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all
Visit the museums directory and read about past events
at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com
Contact us at news(a)computercollector.com
585 readers and counting!
12:15 p.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
would come forward so I can write about them. However
one thing I never
pretend is that vintage systems are actually "better" than today's.
I don't pretend that either, because I don't need to. Many times the
older machine _is_ better. OK, it's got less memory, it's got a slower
processor, but it's plain nicer to use and does more _useful work_ as
opposed to displaying a flashy user interface that gets in the way after
you get used to the machine. The older machine just does the job.
Another thread seems to be indicating that the HP41, which is 25 years
old this year, is a more useful calcualtor than most (if not all)
calculators that came after it. And for some applications that's true of
computers too...
I've heard that Windows users expect to have to re-install their OS and
applications every month or so, and get a crash at least once a day. If
one mof my classics started behaving like that I'd be grabbing the
service manuals and logic analyser. Computers should not crash -- ever.
If they do there's something wrong.
- Evan (happily using his XP machine and Yahoo email)
-tony (Happily avoiding everything from M$).
12:41 p.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
>>> I've heard that Windows users expect
to have to re-install their OS and
applications every month or so, and get a crash
at least once a day.
I'm no MSFT lover by any means. But if that's the latest you hear about
Windows, then you're talking to people who haven't used it since the pre-1994
"vintage" Windows era of 3.x... or at least Win95.
Once again, for emphasis: I'm no Microserf! Win 2000 was good; WinXP is very
good. I've had it loaded for about a year (on a mediocre $500 clone) and never
needed to reinstall anything.
--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
would come
forward so I can write about them. However one thing I never
pretend is that vintage systems are actually "better" than today's.
I don't pretend that either, because I don't need to. Many times the
older machine _is_ better. OK, it's got less memory, it's got a slower
processor, but it's plain nicer to use and does more _useful work_ as
opposed to displaying a flashy user interface that gets in the way after
you get used to the machine. The older machine just does the job.
Another thread seems to be indicating that the HP41, which is 25 years
old this year, is a more useful calcualtor than most (if not all)
calculators that came after it. And for some applications that's true of
computers too...
I've heard that Windows users expect to have to re-install their OS and
applications every month or so, and get a crash at least once a day. If
one mof my classics started behaving like that I'd be grabbing the
service manuals and logic analyser. Computers should not crash -- ever.
If they do there's something wrong.
- Evan (happily using his XP machine and Yahoo email)
-tony (Happily avoiding everything from M$).
12:59 p.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
----- Original Message -----
From: "Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter" <news(a)computercollector.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
>>>> I've heard that Windows users
expect to have to re-install their OS
and
applications every month or so, and get a crash at
least once a day.
I'm no MSFT lover by any means. But if that's the latest you hear about
Windows, then you're talking to people who haven't used it since the
pre-1994
"vintage" Windows era of 3.x... or at least
Win95.
Once again, for emphasis: I'm no Microserf! Win 2000 was good; WinXP is
very
good. I've had it loaded for about a year (on a
mediocre $500 clone) and
never
needed to reinstall anything.
I find most of the people bashing Windows or Mac OS do not even use them to
know what they are talking about. Win2k is very stable and probably does not
need reinstalled ever, not sure about XP since I don't use it. The older Win
9x machine would need reinstalled every 8-12 months if you constantly
install and uninstall apps, change hardware, and try every new device driver
out (basically the typical game user). I find that even the older Mac OS 7.x
and Windows 3.1 would be reliable enough for real work assuming you used a
stable set of drivers and shut the machine down at the end of the day (to
avoid memory leaks). I have yet to see an consumer OS that did not crash
when using buggy hardware/drivers or buggy software.
10:06 p.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
Teo Zenios wrote:
I find most of the people bashing Windows or Mac OS do
not even use them to
know what they are talking about. Win2k is very stable and probably does not
need reinstalled ever, not sure about XP since I don't use it. The older Win
9x machine would need reinstalled every 8-12 months if you constantly
install and uninstall apps, change hardware, and try every new device driver
out (basically the typical game user). I find that even the older Mac OS 7.x
and Windows 3.1 would be reliable enough for real work assuming you used a
stable set of drivers and shut the machine down at the end of the day (to
avoid memory leaks). I have yet to see an consumer OS that did not crash
when using buggy hardware/drivers or buggy software.
I use various "free" Unixes (Linux and NetBSD, mainly) and a couple of
commercial ones. What you tend to find with buggy software is that the
application will crash, leaving the underlying operating system
untouched. If you're really unlucky, it might leave X in an uncertain
state and you'll need to restart it.
I use Windows 2000 at work, and while it does appear to be fairly
stable, it's so limited that it's practically impossible to get any real
work done.
Gordon.
10:24 p.m.
New subject: 200LX -- was: 10 year rule
On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 15:41 -0800, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter
wrote:
Once again, for emphasis: I'm no Microserf! Win
2000 was good; WinXP is very
good.
No, and very very no. :P
I've had it loaded for about a year (on a mediocre
$500 clone) and never
needed to reinstall anything.
That explains your opinion of it being good. Try
maintaining it over a
large network like my school did. The network didn't work - THE FIRST
TWO YEARS. When I left that school it still took 45 minutes to log in.
I recently got my mom using Linux, after maintaining the hopeless mess
she made of her Windows install. She happily clicks away, and is far
happier and doing far more with it, than she ever was with Windows XP.
Not that any of this is on-topic at all. For the sake of the other list
members, I'll agree to disagree :)
--
Tore S Bekkedal <toresbe(a)ifi.uio.no>
7:01 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Tore S Bekkedal wrote:
Actually, the 200LX was a kickass handheld. I'd
give the world for one.
Really? Can you start gift-wrapping it for me? A nice big red bow would
be sweet as well. I'll get the 200LX in the mail soon.
Do I also get all the people with the world? If so, can I discard the
ones I don't like?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
12:51 p.m.
At 10:01 AM 11/17/04 -0800, Sellam wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Tore S Bekkedal wrote:
NO! :-)
Joe
Actually, the 200LX was a kickass handheld.
I'd give the world for one.
Really? Can you start gift-wrapping it for me? A nice big red bow would
be sweet as well. I'll get the 200LX in the mail soon.
Do I also get all the people with the world? If so, can I discard the
ones I don't like?
6:41 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Joe R. wrote:
At 10:01 AM 11/17/04 -0800, Sellam wrote:
In that case I'll keep the 200LX ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Tore S Bekkedal wrote:
NO! :-) Actually, the 200LX was a kickass handheld.
I'd give the world for one.
Really? Can you start gift-wrapping it for me? A nice big red bow would
be sweet as well. I'll get the 200LX in the mail soon.
Do I also get all the people with the world? If so, can I discard the
ones I don't like?
12:10 p.m.
Yes, as no one (who is sane) uses a Newton or HP200LX
for day-to-day business.
I know I'm not sane, and I don't use a 200LX because I don't have one.
But I certainly do useful work on a 95LX and 100LX. They're ideal for
taking notes as I dismantle soemthing, for keeping a catalogue of
books/components, for use as a terminal emulator, for simple spreadsheets
(and I don't need anything more), etc, etc, etc.
A more modern machine wouldn't give me any beneifts that can think of. It
would take longer to use, it would probably have a much shorter battery
life. No thanks.
-tony
12:47 p.m.
At 09:23 AM 11/17/04 -0800, you wrote:
You're dead wrong about that. I know a lot of people that work in the field and take
200LXs with them to send and recieve messages. They also use them to setup radio systems
and other equipment via RS-232 links. Many of these people work in the field for long
periods and space and weight are a premium and a laptop, plus charger, plus battteries
take up a lot more room and weight than a 200LX and take time to boot and them load a
terminal program. The 200LX has the OS and applications in ROM and starts as soon as you
press the On key.
>>>> On the other hand, especialy you may agree that almost any kind of 94ish
PDA is vintage from todays view. Isn't it?
Yes, as no one (who is sane) uses a Newton or HP200LX for day-to-day business.
LOL, that kind of comment nearly got me attacked at the "10th anniversary of
the Newton" celebration at MIT last year. For safety I avoid the HP200 mailing
list entirely. :)
You're still on the wrong list to make that kind of comment! :-)
Joe
--- Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)siemens.com> wrote:
Am 17 Nov 2004 8:17 meinte Computer Collector
E-Mail Newsletter:
=====
Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter!
-- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address
-- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us
-- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all
Visit the museums directory and read about past events
at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com
Contact us at news(a)computercollector.com
585 readers and counting!
--- Ladyelec(a)aol.com wrote:
> Why not make it :
> 10 years: Vintage
> 20 years: classic
> 25 years: antique
> or something similar to that?
> Isa
The terms are too similar, people will just get
more confused.
Agreed.
All I intended to do when I started this
discussion topic was to point out
the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and
Pentiums as "vintage" (or
any
other synonym). But then others observed back
that I was being
short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age,
"vintage" just means "anything considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me. But I
do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider
between what's just "old"
and
what's truly vintage.
Well, the important part was to get the off the actual stuff.
Everything else is hard to do just by years. Shure, a 1994 PC
might be about where you still may use it, and more important,
might not look interesting at all from a colectors view. On
the other hand, especialy you may agree that almost any kind
0f 94ish PDA is vintage from todays view. Isn't it?
In fact, for VCFe the same 10 year limit is enfoced (exempts
need very good reasoning). Everythin below is NADA, everything
above up to everyones own judgement. So, I'm expecting PCs to
show up soon.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
6:20 a.m.
Rumor has it that Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter may have mentioned
these words:
The terms are too similar, people will just get more
confused.
All I intended to do when I started this discussion topic was to point out the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and Pentiums as "vintage" (or any
other synonym). But then others observed back that I was being short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age, "vintage" just means "anything
considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me. But I do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider between what's just "old"
and
what's truly vintage.
Wham. Wham. Wham.
Yet another dead horse being beaten once again... Ungh.
Yet again, I will mention that depending on *how* strict you feel we should
police that number, my beloved CoCo3 will once again become offtopic. If
memory serves, it was manufactured through 1990 and was sold until late 1992.
So, you want to change the "deadline" (as does someone at least once per
year -- check the archives!) -- will there be exceptions? If so, what will
they be? Will it be "anything newer but still used an 8-bit processor"?
That would still leave out a lot of neat Amiga hardware that just got
ontopic. Will it be "introduction date?" There are MS-DOS versions
introduced over 15 years ago that still run on brand-new equipment. Will
that make it all ontopic? Will it be an arbitrary "kewlness factor" which
can (of course) never be quantified? If it's the latest that you're
considering, what's the point of even *having* a number?
For some reason, someone always feels that the way it is now is "horribly
broken" and that by changing a number will magically "unbreak" it. Unforch,
what you may consider "fixed" may be "horribly broken" to someone
else.
There is no solution for this perceived "problem," and most say there is no
problem to solve.
Regards,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers
_??_ zmerch(a)30below.com
(?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
_)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
6:31 a.m.
Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
The terms are too similar, people will just get more
confused.
All I intended to do when I started this discussion topic was to point out the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and Pentiums as "vintage" (or any
other synonym). But then others observed back that I was being short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age, "vintage" just means "anything
considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me. But I do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider between what's just "old"
and
what's truly vintage.
I think you're all looking at this completely backwards.
The rate of electronic evolution (OK, change) has *accelerated* over
time, meaning that computers are obsoleted much more quickly than their
older counterparts. Therefore the age limit for this list should be
*lowered* to about 8 years now.
Sometime in about 12 years a computer that's two weeks old will
qualify as a classic.
I'll be grabbing my hat....
Doc
10:49 a.m.
Doc Shipley wrote:
Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
I would not quite describe my IBM Workpad Z50 as a classic, but it
certainly is unusual. OK, it is basically just a big WinCE PDA (or is
it a very small MIPS laptop?), but they are interesting, and not exactly
a common commodity.
I wonder if my old Compaq P60 would be classified as a classic yet?
Again, not that old, and "beige box", but very cool and unusual in that
it had built-in SCSI, and a keyboard with a mike and speaker built in.
Lots of other little wierd things like that too...
Gordon.
The terms are too similar, people will just get
more confused.
All I intended to do when I started this discussion topic was to point
out the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and Pentiums as "vintage"
(or any
other synonym). But then others observed back that I was being
short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age, "vintage" just means "anything
considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me.
But I do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider between what's just
"old" and
what's truly vintage.
I think you're all looking at this completely backwards.
The rate of electronic evolution (OK, change) has *accelerated* over
time, meaning that computers are obsoleted much more quickly than their
older counterparts. Therefore the age limit for this list should be
*lowered* to about 8 years now. 
1:53 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
To: <news(a)computercollector.com>om>; <General(a)mdrconsult.com>om>;
"Discussion(a)mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: 10 year rule
Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
I think the problem with this discussion is partly that age does not equal
collectability.
Lets not even discuss the concept of 'value' and really muddy the waters.
But in any
type of 'collectable' items, mass-production, commodity products are not as
desirable
as a rare or hand-made version.
Think of nails here, a hand-wrought vintage nail is a lot more interesting
than one you
might find in a modern hardware store.
Along the same lines, a production PC will probably never be a desirable
'vintage' computer
however old it becomes. But 50 years from now, one of today's 'hot-rod'
case-modder PC
with neon tubing and a solid aluminum chassis might become an important
cultural artifact.
A lot of this has to do with the 'production value' of the collectable in
question.
The 10-year rule, as I understand it, is intended to prevent the list from
degenerating into
a WinTel support group.
The terms are too similar, people will just get
more confused.
All I intended to do when I started this discussion topic was to point
out the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and Pentiums as "vintage"
(or any
other synonym). But then others observed back that I was being
short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age, "vintage" just means "anything
considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me. But
I do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider between what's just
"old" and
what's truly vintage.
I think you're all looking at this completely backwards.
The rate of electronic evolution (OK, change) has *accelerated* over
time, meaning that computers are obsoleted much more quickly than their
older counterparts. Therefore the age limit for this list should be
*lowered* to about 8 years now.
Sometime in about 12 years a computer that's two weeks old will qualify
as a classic.
I'll be grabbing my hat....
Doc
2:03 p.m.
>>> The 10-year rule, as I understand it, is
intended to prevent the list from
degenerating into a WinTel support group.
LOL, well isn't that exactly the same conclusion we reached a couple weeks ago
(and a year ago, and the year before that, indefinitely)...?
Let's change the topic. I HEARD A RUMOR THAT SELLAM IS PUTTING HIS WHOLE
COLLECTION ON EBAY.
that oughta be fun :)
--- Bob Shannon <bshannon(a)tiac.net> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
To: <news(a)computercollector.com>om>; <General(a)mdrconsult.com>om>;
"Discussion(a)mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: 10 year rule
=====
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Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
I think the problem with this discussion is partly that age does not equal
collectability.
Lets not even discuss the concept of 'value' and really muddy the waters.
But in any
type of 'collectable' items, mass-production, commodity products are not as
desirable
as a rare or hand-made version.
Think of nails here, a hand-wrought vintage nail is a lot more interesting
than one you
might find in a modern hardware store.
Along the same lines, a production PC will probably never be a desirable
'vintage' computer
however old it becomes. But 50 years from now, one of today's 'hot-rod'
case-modder PC
with neon tubing and a solid aluminum chassis might become an important
cultural artifact.
A lot of this has to do with the 'production value' of the collectable in
question.
The 10-year rule, as I understand it, is intended to prevent the list from
degenerating into
a WinTel support group.
The terms are too similar, people will just get
more confused.
All I intended to do when I started this discussion topic was to point
out the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and Pentiums as "vintage"
(or any
other synonym). But then others observed back that I was being
short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age, "vintage" just means "anything
considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me. But
I do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider between what's just
"old" and
what's truly vintage.
I think you're all looking at this completely backwards.
The rate of electronic evolution (OK, change) has *accelerated* over
time, meaning that computers are obsoleted much more quickly than their
older counterparts. Therefore the age limit for this list should be
*lowered* to about 8 years now.
Sometime in about 12 years a computer that's two weeks old will qualify
as a classic.
I'll be grabbing my hat....
Doc 
2:39 p.m.
news(a)computercollector.com sez:
Let's change the topic. I HEARD A RUMOR THAT SELLAM IS PUTTING HIS WHOLE
COLLECTION ON EBAY.
LIVERMORE (for immediate release) Long time 'orphan computer' collector,
raconteur, bon-vivant, and All-Around Swell Guy Sellam Ismail today
reported that, after climbing to the very top of the sprawling 10-meter
tall mountain of s.......tuff in his backwoods cyber-reclamation facility
to take the photographs demanded by the EPA and the Berkeley Siesmological
Department, he noticed an uncanny, some might say prophetically eery,
likeness of the ancient Sumerian God of Accountants and Calulators -
'Abbaquus Qiipoo' when the photos were downloaded and heavily
Photoshopped.
Realizing the awesome portents of this wildly magical revelation, the
wily entrpreneur immdiately did the only thing concievable in this
situation: he put the entire collection, as it is, on eBay, with a
starting bid of US$1.5Bn, and No Reserve.
"Well, fuck!" says Ismail with characteristic candor. "If some
incredibly stupid bitch in Florida can auction off a crummy goddam
*sandwich* in the name of God and the Holy Roman Church, then I say 'get
the fuck outa my way' because I'm at least two orders of magnitude more
K3WL in every way than she is, or her fucked-up nasty old bitten-off
schiesse grilled cheese!!"
When asked how a potentially successful bidder would essay to move the
entire collection with out disturbing the critical arrangement of
cabinets and monitors and cast-off impact printers, Ismail replied:
"Like I even give a fuck?? I'll already be on a jet to my own private
Island, and they can bomb the goddam shit, for all I care.."
Any last words for our audience, Sellam?
"Jeeeezus Aitch Kreist do I love eBay!!! Now where's my goddamn Taser? I
gotta hot date tonight..."
---------------------------------------------------------
6:46 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
Let's change the topic. I HEARD A RUMOR THAT
SELLAM IS PUTTING HIS WHOLE
COLLECTION ON EBAY.
Yes, it's all for sale. $1 reserve. Three caveats: take all or nothing
(bring 4 semis); it must be out of here in 24 hours tops; you are
allowed 1 helper.
that oughta be fun :)
...for me to watch :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
18 Nov
18 Nov
1:22 a.m.
And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
but can we wear forklift exoskeletons? (ie from the movie Aliens)
Cheers,
Bryan
Let's change the topic. I HEARD A RUMOR THAT
SELLAM IS PUTTING HIS WHOLE
COLLECTION ON EBAY.
Yes, it's all for sale. $1 reserve. Three caveats: take all or nothing
(bring 4 semis); it must be out of here in 24 hours tops; you are
allowed 1 helper.
17 Nov
17 Nov
2:14 p.m.
Bob Shannon wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
To: <news(a)computercollector.com>om>; <General(a)mdrconsult.com>om>;
"Discussion(a)mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: 10 year rule
Or, an example that's sitting in front of me right now - an SGI 320
"PC".
It is a PC, and a pretty recent one, in that it runs Windows and is a
dual-PII. As a matter of fact, to my eternal disgust, it will *only*
run Windows in graphics mode.
However, it's a decidedly non-commodity system. SGI used a custom
BIOS that bypasses a lot of the x86 legacy cruft and is optimized to the
NT/Win2k OS family. Very fast RAM, all SCSI, very high-end graphics,
and one of the first Wintel systems to drop PS/2 in favor of USB HIDs.
Plus, they're so ugly they're cute.
Since my spousal equivalent retired her W98 Athlon in favor of an
eMac, the only PCs in the house have been the Linux files/DNS/DHCP/MOPS
/TFTP server and a little Soekris firewall. But when this 320 and its
flat panel came available, I jumped on it without a second thought. I'm
not very sure what I'm gonna do with a Windows box, but I'm sure I'll
think of something.
Now I just wish I could afford the ~$300USD for a DVI multilink
adapter for this 1600SW.
Anyhow, the point is that since it's not 10 years old, and it only
runs Windows, it's not "classic" by the conventions of this group. It
*is* a major departure from commodity PC hardware, though, it is fairly
uncommon, and I wouldn't blush a bit about discussing it on this list.
Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote:
I think the problem with this discussion is partly that age does not
equal collectability.
Lets not even discuss the concept of 'value' and really muddy the
waters. But in any
type of 'collectable' items, mass-production, commodity products are not
as desirable
as a rare or hand-made version.
Think of nails here, a hand-wrought vintage nail is a lot more
interesting than one you
might find in a modern hardware store. The terms are too similar, people will just get
more confused.
All I intended to do when I started this discussion topic was to
point out the
obsurdity of considering things like the Web and Pentiums as
"vintage" (or any
other synonym). But then others observed back that I was being
short-sighted
-- if you ignore that actual age, "vintage" just means "anything
considered
obsolete by the mainstream," and that's a good enough answer for me.
But I do
think that 15 years, not 10, is a better divider between what's just
"old" and
what's truly vintage.
I think you're all looking at this completely backwards.
The rate of electronic evolution (OK, change) has *accelerated* over
time, meaning that computers are obsoleted much more quickly than
their older counterparts. Therefore the age limit for this list
should be *lowered* to about 8 years now.
Sometime in about 12 years a computer that's two weeks old will
qualify as a classic.
I'll be grabbing my hat....
Doc The 10-year rule, as I understand it, is intended to
prevent the list
from degenerating into
a WinTel support group.
You guys do realize that my 8-year suggestion was a joke, right?
Doc
3:45 p.m.
a little Soekris firewall. But when this 320 and its
flat panel
came available, I jumped on it without a second thought. I'm not
very sure what I'm gonna do with a Windows box, but I'm sure I'll
think of something.
Now I just wish I could afford the ~$300USD for a DVI multilink
adapter for this 1600SW.
Anyhow, the point is that since it's not 10 years old, and it only
runs Windows, it's not "classic" by the conventions of this group.
It *is* a major departure from commodity PC hardware, though, it is
fairly uncommon, and I wouldn't blush a bit about discussing it on
this list.
Actually I think it *almost* falls under the "really cool hardware"
exemption, by virtue of the 1600SW panel. :^) I *so* want one of
those for my o2/270! The problem is I can't justify the cost of
buying one on ePay.
Besides, from the PC HW point they actually do sound like interesting systems.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
4 p.m.
Zane H. Healy wrote:
Man, this thing is a close runner-up to an Apple Cinema Display for
color and crispness. Since I don't *have* a cinema display (or a
thousand clams to get one) I'm very seriously considering a MultiLink
adapter. My current tube is a SGI GDM-4011P, and the flat-panel makes
it look like cheap Sampo junk.
a little
Soekris firewall. But when this 320 and its flat panel came
available, I jumped on it without a second thought. I'm not very sure
what I'm gonna do with a Windows box, but I'm sure I'll think of
something.
Now I just wish I could afford the ~$300USD for a DVI multilink
adapter for this 1600SW.
Anyhow, the point is that since it's not 10 years old, and it only
runs Windows, it's not "classic" by the conventions of this group. It
*is* a major departure from commodity PC hardware, though, it is
fairly uncommon, and I wouldn't blush a bit about discussing it on
this list.
Actually I think it *almost* falls under the "really cool hardware"
exemption, by virtue of the 1600SW panel. :^) I *so* want one of those
for my o2/270! The problem is I can't justify the cost of buying one on
ePay. Besides, from the PC HW point they actually do sound
like interesting
systems.
It really is. It's got Win2K Pro on it, with 2x 450MHz P-IIs, 512MB,
the A/V modules, and a Cheetah 50GB LVD disk. As soon as I get the
Cygwin tools built, I expect it to approximate a useful system. ;)
Doc
5:23 p.m.
Man, this thing is a close runner-up to an Apple
Cinema Display
for color and crispness. Since I don't *have* a cinema display (or
a thousand clams to get one) I'm very seriously considering a
MultiLink adapter. My current tube is a SGI GDM-4011P, and the
flat-panel makes it look like cheap Sampo junk.
Oh, you just had to tell me that didn't you. I probably wouldn't
even have to work that hard to talk my wife into a 1600SW, as she
wanted one when I got the o2!
It really is. It's got Win2K Pro on it, with 2x
450MHz P-IIs,
512MB, the A/V modules, and a Cheetah 50GB LVD disk. As soon as I
get the Cygwin tools built, I expect it to approximate a useful
system. ;)
Is it possible to put Linux on one of these? That's what it would
take to make them really interesting for me (though I'd prefer
Solaris x86 on one).
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
6:21 p.m.
Zane H. Healy wrote:
My work is done, here. :)
Just to rub it in a little, this was a "brother-in-law deal". I paid
less for the whole rig than the 1600SW sells for on eBay. And no stuck
pixels.
Man, this
thing is a close runner-up to an Apple Cinema Display for
color and crispness. Since I don't *have* a cinema display (or a
thousand clams to get one) I'm very seriously considering a MultiLink
adapter. My current tube is a SGI GDM-4011P, and the flat-panel makes
it look like cheap Sampo junk.
Oh, you just had to tell me that didn't you. I probably wouldn't even
have to work that hard to talk my wife into a 1600SW, as she wanted one
when I got the o2! Is it possible to put Linux on one of these?
That's what it would take
to make them really interesting for me (though I'd prefer Solaris x86 on
one).
Neither OS supports the accelerated graphics. I think it'll run
Linux, but only in text mode and maybe unaccelerated VESA graphics mode.
I'm looking into video capture software. There are some things I'd
like to do, and I think between the 320 and the Octane with EVO I have
the hardware to do the capture (from VHS, 16mm, and mini-VHS), then I
can do the editing on the G5.
Doc
7220
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