About a year ago, I started to catalog all the web sites devoted to collecting computers, including everything from game consoles to big iron. I stopped when I realized the futility. At that point, I had between 2500 and 3000 sites in a database. Most of those were highly specialized for specific brands or models, but those collectors were serious enough about the hobby to create a web site. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 2:43 AM Subject: Re: How many collectors? a technology, anymore. place. to They

Yes, I've had to become more focused because of my lack of storage space. I got hooked on the whole vintage computer thing a few years ago when I was asked to save some family history files that were on an AT&T 6300 HD but they only had the case (no keyboard or monitor.) This was before I knew anything about this mailing list, or that there were newsgroups about old computers. I learned a lot in the hunt for the parts that I needed, and by the time found what I needed, I was hooked on the thrill of the hunt. That, and the feeling of joy I would get when I found some long neglected old computer that I would clean up and see run for the first time in years. I quickly began to collect any old computers, even Compaq 286's but it didn't take me long to see the need to calm down, and be more focused. I still have some computers from that first wave of hunting but for the most part, I've tried to stick to Apple II related items. Now, I've moved into collecting Apple II clones as well.

On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: You rang? ( - Maynard G Krebs) Sellam calls me an "accumulator". But he has been extremely helpful to me when I needed to get rid of a few thousand square feet of stuff. I am unwilling to throw out anything, so I have developed a "collection". But I DO OFTEN buy things after the manufacturer has gone out of business. It's cheaper then. Or right before - the trend controllers follow me around with clipboards to discontinue ANYTHING that I like. More than a dozen magazines have folded or changed focus IMMEDIATELY after I subscribed. I buy things because they are useful, neat, or fun. NOT because they are historical. I bought TRS-80s when they were current. I bought Gavilans right after they went under, when they got cheap enough. I bought PCs when they were current. My HC-20s were well before Epson released it in the U.S. as the HX-20. Do I have a collection? Yes. Am I a "serious collector"? No. I need to get rid of another dozen cubic yards. Besides,... How can y'all talk about being serious when MOST of the traffic on this list is about cars, firearms, and dipping in molten iron? OB_ON-topic: I have a small box of NOS Shugart 8" repair parts (some drive belts, chips, a SS head carriage, etc. Anybody want to pay $5 (priority mail +) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: Can you imagine how painful it was to have to part with most of my magazines and some of my books?? What hurts is that I should not accumulate anything until I get rid of a dozen more cubic yards. :-( -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

Free for Postage else TOSS! NetWare reference card, 1988, qty 3 Netware 3270 IBM KB overlays, qty 10 ExaByte EXB-8202,8505 Owners Manual, 1994, qty 2 "Using ExaByte Tape Drives in Non-DOS Syetems", 1995, qty 2 John A.

Vintage computer collecting is really no different from many other forms of collecting, its simply less common. Vintage car buffs clearly are more advanced in their restoration and repair capabilities than vintage computer collectors as a group, but I beleive that this is really only a matter of a greater demand for services. Firearms collecting (in the USA) is probably the most similar form of collecting, as there is a lot of emphisis on the details and variations of specific models and the geneology of design, etc. (and that you may get a visit In all these forms of collecting, as well as stamps, coins, and any antiques, you have 2 classes of people active in the hobby. Perhaps 80% to 90% of those active in the hobby have an 'accumulation' of interesting things, while a minority have a true 'collection'. Whats the differance between an accumulation and a collection? Its simply a matter of depth versus bredth. Some people may wish to accumulate one example of several breeds of minicomputers, but has no desire to use their limited space for many examples of a single model of line of machine. On the other hand, each breed of machine holds a world of details, software, quirks, and history. So others may wish to have a deeper understanding of a smaller segment of vintage computers. Clearly building an accumulation is much easier than building a true collection, simply because nearly any vintage system can drop into some form of context with what you have already. Given how closely related all computers are, its not hard to find some context that relates very distant machines. Building a collection on the other hand requires a much more selective approach, where many interesting finds might be passed by, or traded for specific things needed to fill any gaps in the collection, and a dedication to the study of a limited scope of collectable systems. Generally, the term 'serious collectors' is used to describe the minority of people who go for depth over bredth. Personally, I feel that both forms (accumulations and 'serious' collections) are important to the growth of any form of collecting, as collectors trade and swap amonghts themselves. Also its clear that some people may have a real depth to their collection of some machines, while also having an accululation of others. As a result, I really don't like to make any distinction between accululators and 'true' collectors. The only really meaningful thing, is how many other people are interested in the items your seeking, and can you work with them to everyone's mutual benifit? Some people may stumble onto a very old, or very rare machine, but lack the skills or knowledge to really make the machine perform like it was new. So simple possession does not make one a collector of any standing. That being the case, simple quantity also fails to make the grade of 'serious collector'. A massive accumulation of different systems, each partly imcomplete, undocumented, and poorly understood clearly fails to be a serious collection, even if your spending large sums on storage space. Lining all the systems up in pretty rows does not qualify either. But a single, complete system, documented and understood, can be a very nice collection because of the detailed effort it takes to assemble something like this, especially if the system in question is a restoration, or a newly assembled system made from all original parts. In my opinion, if you have searched for years for a specific item, you are a serious collector, even if you have not found it yet! My reason for this is that you have probably done a lot of research, and have a deep understanding of the item your after. But you may also have a small number of fairly common systems, but also have done the detailed research and documentation to claim the title of a 'serious collector', for whatever that is worth. In my opinion, Ernest wrote:

Jeff Hellige wrote: I'm only describing the terms used in other forms of collecting. You may argue that their common usage should not apply to classic computer collecting, but thats really a different matter completely. I totally agree. Each system you collect may contain a whole world of unique features, software and hardware design styles, etc. Some people would prefer to have some familiarity with many different designs, and others perfer to fully understand their systems. Its simply a matter of style, and I don't personally advocate one style over another. In fact, each style of collecting complements the other, and that was the point I was trying to express. See, if someone needs a part to repair a system that completes their 'serious' collection in some way, they can usually trade something, perhaps something more 'valuable' or collectable to another collector who has the needed part, but does not value it as deeply as the first collector. The first collector gets his 'needed' part, and the second collector gets a very sweet deal in their own eyes. So whats the problem here? Well Sir, it was not my intention to put anything or anyone down, nor to cast a better light on any specific style of computer collecting. Personally, if you enjoy learning all you can about each system, I'd assume you were a 'serious' collector. This would suggest to me that you probably jump at the chance to get all the options and features for the items in your collection, etc. Myself, I'm an accumulator, bigtime. I do have a small 'serious collection' within my larger accumulation (of the original 'family of three' early HP mini's), and a much too large selection of Apollo gear, but then there are systems I just 'had to have', or that earned a special place in my heart, like me ELF-II. Most of these have nothing to do with HP mini's. By far I have many more random systems around here than parts of any cohernet collection of anything specific. But I'd trade those random systems away in a heartbeat to get parts for the systems I personally value most.

Two basic types of collector, those who assemble sets of items of value, whose value is enhanced by completeness of the set, and those who collect examples of fine craftsmanship and items of special merit compared to there contemporaries. Most of my favorite systems I would be collecting regardless if they are rare or common. Things I hunt down mostly because they are rare, often prove much less satisfying to own than to look for.

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Agreed, as I buy stuff because it interets me and possibly fits into my collection somehow, or just because it interests me! The only stuff I've sold off has been a bit of excess, usually newer stuff, so the value of the rest isn't of much concern to me at the moment. I generally end up giving away far more than what I've sold. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: Just understand one thing... Some (and I'm not saying most, just some) storage-only collectors are just play-with-em collectors in the making. I'm one of them. As you may remember, I just got into this less than a year ago, with little knowledge of my target computers aside from that gained by perusal of the various web sites. So far, my activities within the hobby have been purely acquisitional. My idea was that hardware, software, and docs are easier to acquire today than they will be one or more years from now, and therefore, I should acquire now and play later. Now that I've pretty much exhausted my storage space and cc budget, I'm slowly moving into playing mode. I'm also doing trades with people to exchange my more randomly-acquired items with items more targeted to my specific interests. I've yet to have my first powering-on ceremony, but it *is* coming soon! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss(a)subatomix.com

Does anyone specifically collect examples of really bad designs? (no, really...) Tony Duell wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" <bshannon(a)tiac.net> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:08 AM Subject: Re: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? designs? As a biologist the aim of my collection is the show the evolution of the computer, space limits are keeping me focused on desktop/home systems but I have a few minis pointing back to the dinosaurs. I have recently come across a box of old magazines containing ads for the PC jr and Epson QX-10, and luckily enough the QX-10 was an uncles favourite machine and will soon be joining my collection. I look for unique features when considering a new addition, having more RAM, a bigger hard drive or faster CPU doesn't cut it but a new CPU, or storage device. Of course I also adopt any free machines that come my way to save them from becoming scrap. This was my original focus when I first started gathering old machines to revive them as linux terminals. I am now looking into some of the offspring of convergence and hunting down the embedded machines. Does anyone know what sort of machine is in the car's onboard controller? A few pictures I've found make them look like PC104's. These machines are hitting zero value quickly and may not last 10 years unless picked up now.

On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Ernest wrote: I think in a partially drunken spewage of "facts" during an interview I said 500-1000. I think it's definitely closer to 1,000 worldwide. It's may be even higher, but I was trying to be conservative. If we define "serious" as someone who actively engages in computer collecting activities (goes looking for them once in a while, maybe even has a website), I think that number is definitely between 500-1000 (worldwide). Drop "serious" from the equation and what you have is probably more like 5,000 collectors worldwide. Probably more. (And I want each and every one of them to come to the VCF ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org