17 Jan
2014
17 Jan
'14
7:56 a.m.
No doubt you will all pick many holes in this, but...
Summary:
Chris Fenton and Andras Tantos decided they wanted a model of the
famed supercomputer for their desk. It turned out to be a more
complicated project than expected.
http://gigaom.com/2014/01/14/the-search-for-the-lost-cray-supercomputer-os/
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
17 Jan
17 Jan
9:21 a.m.
On 1/17/14 4:56 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
No doubt you will all pick many holes in this, but...
I admire their tenacity and unwillingness to accept the fact that
it is highly unlikely the software has survived. I've jousted these
windmills for decades and mostly feel indifference, since the only
reason people get excited is because the Crays looks cool.
If SGI wouldn't have made the conscious decision to destroy the
Cray archive they might have an easier time of it, though the same
thing happened to their archives when they died.
I'm more interested in the B 5500 work being done, which gets no
press at all.
http://retro-b5500.blogspot.com/
12:34 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 06:21:12AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
I admire their tenacity and unwillingness to accept the
fact that
it is highly unlikely the software has survived.
It may be unlikely, but we've had some big surprises before.
There was a thread on slashdot a while back where a retired programmer was
asking how he should handle "reverse industrial espionage", where the
company had lost some old code and was hiring back its retired ex-programmers
to recreate it from scratch. Naturally he'd brought a copy home back in
the old days and still had the tape, so he was wondering how to handle this
obvious good news w/o getting in big trouble for what was technically theft.
I'll bet there was a lot of that! Especially if you count hardcopy.
John Wilson
D Bit
1:56 p.m.
On 1/17/14 9:34 AM, John Wilson wrote:
he'd brought a copy home back in
the old days and still had the tape, so he was wondering how to handle this
obvious good news w/o getting in big trouble for what was technically theft.
I'll bet there was a lot of that! Especially if you count hardcopy.
Yes, though you had a very small set of clients for a Cray, and they weren't
very happy with people just taking stuff out of the building.
I spent some time digging for Cray software when I first started at CHM, since
we have machines and some documentation but no software at all. I found out
pretty quickly that people who worked on the machines really didn't want you
to ask them about that.
There is a large class of big machines where this is true. Hell, it's even true
once you get away from the popular minis. Try finding supermini or array processor
software from the 80's today.
2:57 p.m.
On Jan 17, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
There is a large class of big machines where this is true. Hell, it's even true
once you get away from the popular minis. Try finding supermini or array processor
software from the 80's today.
Al,
From my standpoint the OS that comes to mind is GCOS-8.
As for array processor software, it sounds like we may need to talk. I believe I still
have a FPS array processor tape. I've never really considered that it might be rare.
I suppose I should have also grabbed all the spares at the time I got tape.
Zane
3:07 p.m.
On Jan 17, 2014, at 2:57 PM, Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
One of the most historically significant operating systems that?s likely to be in the ?not
to be found? category would be THE. (See ?The THE Operating system? by Dijkstra. It is
where the principles of ring based design and synchronizing by semaphores was invented.)
Maybe, just maybe, it might exist in the form of listings, and since it?s a fairly small
body of assembly language code that might be good enough. Then there would be the problem
of the emulation, though I do know one is being worked on, and at least one real machine
might also still exist.
Come to think of it, I recently read a document about the first Algol-60 compiler ?
consisting of a design description, the full (assembly language) source code, and a Pascal
equivalent.
paul
On Jan 17,
2014, at 10:56 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
There is a large class of big machines where this is true. Hell, it's even true
once you get away from the popular minis. Try finding supermini or array processor
software from the 80's today.
Al,
From my standpoint the OS that comes to mind is GCOS-8. 
3:41 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:07 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
I have 9-track tapes of UMAX/V for Encore Multimax systems that really
need to be archived to a more sable/suitable media.
From my
standpoint the OS that comes to mind is GCOS-8.
One of the most historically significant operating systems that?s likely to be in the
?not to be found? category would be THE. (See ?The THE Operating system? by Dijkstra. It
is where the principles of ring based design and synchronizing by semaphores was
invented.) Maybe, just maybe, it might exist in the form of listings, and since it?s a
fairly small body of assembly language code that might be good enough. Then there would
be the problem of the emulation, though I do know one is being worked on, and at least one
real machine might also still exist.
Come to think of it, I recently read a document about the first Algol-60 compiler ?
consisting of a design description, the full (assembly language) source code, and a Pascal
equivalent. 
4:20 p.m.
From: "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 9:07 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: "The search for the lost Cray supercomputer OS"
One of the most historically significant operating
systems that?s likely
to be in the ?not to be found? category would be THE. (See ?The THE
Operating system? by Dijkstra. It is where the principles of ring based
design and synchronizing by semaphores was invented.) Maybe, just maybe,
it might exist in the form of listings, and since it?s a fairly small body
of assembly language code that might be good enough. Then there would be
the problem of the emulation, though I do know one is being worked on, and
at least one real machine might also still exist.
paul
As Dijksta was Dutch, am I guessing correctly the "THE" stands for "TH
Eindhoven"?
("TH" is the abbreviation for "Technische Hogeschool", freely
translated to
Technical Highschool).
If so, it might make sense to inquire at the computer dept of THE ... or
already done?
- Henk
7:31 p.m.
On Jan 17, 2014, at 4:20 PM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
From: "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at
comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 9:07 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: "The search for the lost Cray supercomputer OS"
Yes, that?s where the names comes from ? now Technical University Eindhoven. It was the
primary OS used on the Electrologica EL-X8 machine when that was the main computer at the
university (late 1960s). And Dijkstra is its main creator.
I corresponded briefly with the lead on the EL-X8 emulator project and the impression I
got is that he didn?t know of a copy of THE. I assume he asked the university, but I
suppose it would not hurt to double check.
Another possibility would be Dijkstra?s archives at University of Texas in Austin.
paul
One of the most historically significant
operating systems that?s likely to be in the ?not to be found? category would be THE.
(See ?The THE Operating system? by Dijkstra. It is where the principles of ring based
design and synchronizing by semaphores was invented.) Maybe, just maybe, it might exist
in the form of listings, and since it?s a fairly small body of assembly language code that
might be good enough. Then there would be the problem of the emulation, though I do know
one is being worked on, and at least one real machine might also still exist.
paul
As Dijksta was Dutch, am I guessing correctly the "THE" stands for "TH
Eindhoven"?
("TH" is the abbreviation for "Technische Hogeschool", freely
translated to Technical Highschool).
If so, it might make sense to inquire at the computer dept of THE ... or already done?
3:31 p.m.
On 17/01/2014 19:57, Zane Healy wrote:
I think it would also be
nice to have GCOS-3, but GCOS-8 was in
commercial use until very recently and BULL still protect their
copyrights. I think this is a major problem...
On Jan 17,
2014, at 10:56 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
There is a large class of big machines where this is true. Hell, it's even true
once you get away from the popular minis. Try finding supermini or array processor
software from the 80's today.
Al,
From my standpoint the OS that comes to mind is GCOS-8.
As for array processor software, it sounds like we may need to talk. I believe I still
have a FPS array processor tape. I've never really considered that it might be rare.
I suppose I should have also grabbed all the spares at the time I got tape.
Zane
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
4:54 p.m.
On 1/17/14 11:57 AM, Zane Healy wrote:
As for array processor software, it sounds like we may
need to talk. I believe I still have a FPS array processor tape. I've never really
considered that it might be rare. I suppose I should have also grabbed all the spares at
the time I got tape.
yes, it would be good to get. I have some FPS-100 software but that's it.
3:06 p.m.
On 01/17/2014 01:56 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 1/17/14 9:34 AM, John Wilson wrote:
One has to remember what the machines were used for. It was designed to
solve very large
problems that create huge arrays. Oil mapping is one thing that does
that, the others explode.
So likely the reason is not so much cray as the specific application or
project it was used for.
Hence the close lipped people.
It was my understanding that a smaller machine managed it and fed it and
accepted
fire hose rate data from it and there was likely no OS but a framework
that the specific
application was supported by. It was from all I read not used as a
general purpose machine
like a VAX or CDC 6000. So rather than OS you likely looking for
something like VAX ELN,
PDP-11 IOX, or some other library of "stuff".
Allison
he'd brought a copy home back in
the old days and still had the tape, so he was wondering how to
handle this
obvious good news w/o getting in big trouble for what was technically
theft.
I'll bet there was a lot of that! Especially if you count hardcopy.
Yes, though you had a very small set of clients for a Cray, and they
weren't
very happy with people just taking stuff out of the building.
I spent some time digging for Cray software when I first started at
CHM, since
we have machines and some documentation but no software at all. I
found out
pretty quickly that people who worked on the machines really didn't
want you
to ask them about that.
There is a large class of big machines where this is true. Hell, it's
even true
once you get away from the popular minis. Try finding supermini or
array processor
software from the 80's today.
3:39 p.m.
On 01/17/2014 12:06 PM, allison wrote:
One has to remember what the machines were used for.
It was designed
to solve very large problems that create huge arrays. Oil mapping is
one thing that does that, the others explode.
Weather forecasting is one non-explosive application. But yes, I
remember the grumbling at LLL about being kicked off of one machine or
another because "the bombers" had some simulation work to do.
Although all operating systems that I'm aware of were
multi-user/multitasking, that was of very limited use for those types of
applications--usually the entire resources of the machine would be put
toward a single problem.
However, we shouldn't forget that the auto industry used supercomputers
as well, but defense was the biggest market segment.
At the time, the raw speed of the big iron could be astounding. I
remember chatting with Greg Mansfield at Cray about rebuilding Unix on
our 11/750 and trying to optimize things to go a bit faster. Greg
confided that he never bothered with partial kernel compiles--he
recompiled the whole thing before he went to refill his coffee cup. By
the time he got back to his seat, it was done.
--Chuck
18 Jan
18 Jan
7:04 p.m.
--On January 17, 2014 3:06:04 PM -0500 allison <ajp166 at verizon.net>
wrote:
One has to remember what the machines were used for.
It was designed
to solve very large problems that create huge arrays. Oil mapping is
one thing that does that, the others explode.
Universities also used Cray machines sometimes. I worked for a time on
the Cray machine at University of London Computing Center in 1988/89.
This was just before the Cray 1 there was replaced with a Cray XMP/28.
Someone there might still have something. There is a little bit of the
history of Cray at ULCC at
<http://pubs.ulcc.ac.uk/78/2/ULCC_exhibition_leaflet.pdf>.
Mike
19 Jan
19 Jan
5:54 a.m.
On 19/01/2014 00:04, Mike Alexander wrote:
--On January 17, 2014 3:06:04 PM -0500 allison
<ajp166 at verizon.net>
wrote:
The folks where I worked at the Proudman Oceanographic Laboratory (POL)
http://www.pol.ac.uk/
which was based at Bidston Observatory
http://www.bidstonhill.org.uk/heritage/trail08/
had access to the Cray at Daresbury via an Remote Job Entry system.
http://tardis.dl.ac.uk/computing_history/cray-1s.html
They used it for Oceanographic modelling. I seem to remember we had an
allocation of one hour of CPU time per week and we struggled to use it.
(Is this the same Cray we are talking about here?)
I also note that Cray INC. are still involved at Daresbury labs....
http://www.hector.ac.uk/abouthector/partners/index.php
but the fastest computer on site seems to be an IBM...
http://www.stfc.ac.uk/hartree/default.aspx
Dave.
G4UGM
P.S. Will this make it to "On-Topic" and is it a human who decides , or
do I have to post in a special way?
PPS Charges Dodgson aka Lewis Carol who was also a Mathematician was
born at Daresbury...
http://lewiscarrollsociety.org.uk/pages/aboutcharlesdodgson/life.html
One has to remember what the machines were used
for. It was designed
to solve very large problems that create huge arrays. Oil mapping is
one thing that does that, the others explode.
Universities also used Cray machines sometimes. I worked for a time
on the Cray machine at University of London Computing Center in
1988/89. This was just before the Cray 1 there was replaced with a
Cray XMP/28. Someone there might still have something. There is a
little bit of the history of Cray at ULCC at
<http://pubs.ulcc.ac.uk/78/2/ULCC_exhibition_leaflet.pdf>.
Mike
9:31 a.m.
On 19 January 2014 10:54, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
The folks where I worked at the Proudman Oceanographic
Laboratory (POL)
http://www.pol.ac.uk/
which was based at Bidston Observatory
http://www.bidstonhill.org.uk/heritage/trail08/
(!) My aunt Valerie Doodson worked there more or less her whole
career. She got an MBE for her labours, a few years ago. She married
Thomas Doodson, who I have just discovered was the son of the director
of the Proudman.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
9:44 a.m.
On 19/01/2014 14:31, Liam Proven wrote:
On 19 January 2014 10:54, Dave <dave.g4ugm at
gmail.com> wrote:
Yes she was there when I worked there. I must say I can't remember her,
but I was seldom let out of the Computer Suit. I am sure I used to have
a picture of her operating the Tidal Prediction Machine, but I can't
find it anywhere. There is some more info about this calculator here:-
http://www.ntslf.org/sharing-knowledge/doodson-machine
Dave Wade
The folks where I worked at the Proudman
Oceanographic Laboratory (POL)
http://www.pol.ac.uk/
which was based at Bidston Observatory
http://www.bidstonhill.org.uk/heritage/trail08/
(!) My aunt Valerie Doodson worked there more or less her whole
career. She got an MBE for her labours, a few years ago. She married
Thomas Doodson, who I have just discovered was the son of the director
of the Proudman.
10:18 a.m.
On 19 January 2014 14:44, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
Yes she was there when I worked there. I must say I
can't remember her, but
I was seldom let out of the Computer Suit. I am sure I used to have a
picture of her operating the Tidal Prediction Machine, but I can't find it
anywhere. There is some more info about this calculator here:-
http://www.ntslf.org/sharing-knowledge/doodson-machine
Heh! :?)
I think this is the pic:
http://www.gavinrymill.com/flaybrick/doodson/Cogs.jpg
Source:
http://www.gavinrymill.com/flaybrick/arthur-doodson.html
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
12:08 p.m.
Another spot to poke around in for (non-classified) Cray software would
be ECMWF. I remember losing out on a bid to them back in the Cray I days.
http://www.ecmwf.int/
--Chuck
17 Jan
17 Jan
2:38 p.m.
At 11:34 AM 1/17/2014, John Wilson wrote:
Naturally he'd brought a copy home back in
the old days and still had the tape, so he was wondering how to handle this
obvious good news w/o getting in big trouble for what was technically theft.
I would think the right way to handle that would be to hire an attorney
who served as intermediary, saying his client would like full indemnity
against any such such of claim of theft but that he'd be wink-wink
very helpful if they hired him.
In my experience, when companies are bought and sold and divisions
dissolved N times over, only the products that interested the most
recent buyer would stand a chance of being archived. The corporate
memory even as to which products they owned can disappear in a
matter of months. Good luck finding anyone who will confirm such
ownership even existed.
- John
19 Jan
19 Jan
10:27 a.m.
On 01/17/2014 11:34 AM, John Wilson wrote:
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 06:21:12AM -0800, Al Kossow
wrote:
Maybe. I've certainly seen quite a few cases of it for smaller machines,
but in those situations the hardware was affordable for individuals, and so
the (ex-)employees had an example at home with them. With the larger and
more expensive systems, it's perhaps less likely that code was taken away,
because the opportunity to compile and test prior to bringing it back to
work would be less.
cheers
Jules
I admire their tenacity and unwillingness to
accept the fact that
it is highly unlikely the software has survived.
It may be unlikely, but we've had some big surprises before.
There was a thread on slashdot a while back where a retired programmer was
asking how he should handle "reverse industrial espionage", where the
company had lost some old code and was hiring back its retired ex-programmers
to recreate it from scratch. Naturally he'd brought a copy home back in
the old days and still had the tape, so he was wondering how to handle this
obvious good news w/o getting in big trouble for what was technically theft.
I'll bet there was a lot of that! Especially if you count hardcopy.
17 Jan
17 Jan
8:11 p.m.
On 17 January 2014 14:21, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
I'm more interested in the B 5500 work being done,
which gets no
press at all.
http://retro-b5500.blogspot.com/
If you are interested, a friend of mine is trying to build his own
fork of this that runs as a normal local app. AIUI they're trying to
implement it in Javascript so that it runs inside a web browser, which
is a nice idea but drastically limits its functionality.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
9:25 p.m.
The problem with keeping old stuff is liability.
What say, someone is looking through some old code
and finds something that his company had a patent
on.
What say a company just patented something that
they expected would have significant value in the
next year or so but they'd really had 20 years ago.
The fact is if they no longer have the stuff,
it can't be used against them.
I've often asked what happened to Intel's user library
from the ISIS days.
A lot of good algorithms were
in that stuff.
All gone.
I have a Nicolet 1080 computer that also had a user
group. I'd love some of the games that they had.
All gone.
I now work at a semiconductor company, that I won't mention
the name of, that started in business making MSI
ttl parts. Most that work there think we'd started
by making x86 parts.
Go to the Intel museum. I've been there. From what they
have there, you'd think there was nothing before the
uP. Also, they never made dead end products.
Unless effort is made to save stuff while it is still
being used, it is guaranteed to be gone shortly after
it is no longer made.
Dwight
18 Jan
18 Jan
1:43 a.m.
There is the Heinz Nixdorf MuseumsForum www.hnf.de, which has a Cray 2. Maybe they have
some bits in their storage. Years ago I tried to get boot tapes for my TI-Explorer and
they wanted just some buck for lifting their asses from their seats to go into storage, if
there would be some "official" contact by the CHM, they could be more
cooperative...
Additionally there is a Cray 1 on display at the Deutsche Museum M?nchen. Maybe there is
some correspondind stuff in storage, but from my knowledge of museums there will be not
much hope.
Did someond tried to ask John Zabolitzky?
I've a large collection of software for Convex systems.
Andreas
Am 17.01.2014 um 15:21 schrieb Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org>:
On 1/17/14 4:56 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
No doubt you will all pick many holes in this, but...
I admire their tenacity and unwillingness to accept the fact that
it is highly unlikely the software has survived. I've jousted these
windmills for decades and mostly feel indifference, since the only
reason people get excited is because the Crays looks cool.
If SGI wouldn't have made the conscious decision to destroy the
Cray archive they might have an easier time of it, though the same
thing happened to their archives when they died.
I'm more interested in the B 5500 work being done, which gets no
press at all.
http://retro-b5500.blogspot.com/
2:04 a.m.
The ETH also had a Cray, here it is sitting lonely in the groundfloor :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orrc/2434182074/
Don't know the exact type though.
Jos
12:57 p.m.
On 1/17/14 10:43 PM, Andreas Holz wrote:
Years ago I tried to get boot tapes for my TI-Explorer
and they wanted just some buck for lifting their asses from their seats to go into storage
It sucks to have to get paid, doesn't it? Did you expect them to do the media recovery
and copying for free too?
if there would be some "official" contact by
the CHM, they could be more cooperative...
There is, http://www.computerhistory.org/research/
Note the fees.
You're certainly welcome to use that channel instead of me.
Expect to pay for someone's time if you do.
17 Jan
17 Jan
9:55 a.m.
I wonder if our local Alabama Supercomputer Authority office might have
archives of software for the Cray X-MP and on. They are down the street
from my work. Supposedly the X-MP24 was the first
machine that they
installed and put in operation back in the 80's.
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
No doubt you will all pick many holes in this, but...
Summary:
Chris Fenton and Andras Tantos decided they wanted a model of the
famed supercomputer for their desk. It turned out to be a more
complicated project than expected.
http://gigaom.com/2014/01/14/the-search-for-the-lost-cray-supercomputer-os/
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
10:42 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans <oltmansg at gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if our local Alabama Supercomputer Authority
office might have
archives of software for the Cray X-MP and on. They are down the street
It may be worth asking. I know a few people who've gone through hades
and back just to get Unicos for more recent Cray hardware.
11:47 a.m.
On Jan 17, 2014, at 10:42 AM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans
<oltmansg at gmail.com> wrote:
What about the Cray-Cyber team in Germany?
paul
I wonder if our local Alabama Supercomputer
Authority office might have
archives of software for the Cray X-MP and on. They are down the street
It may be worth asking. I know a few people who've gone through hades
and back just to get Unicos for more recent Cray hardware.
21 Jan
21 Jan
9:38 a.m.
Just a followup... I shot someone an email at the ASC about Cray software
and here was the response...
Geoff,
While we do still have some of the hardware from the
X-MP, we haven't held
onto any of the software for it, and even if we had the
tapes would have
degraded by now. You may >want to try talking to Jim Curry <jcurry5 at mac.com>
who runs a Cray museum and has taken several of our old systems to see if
he's acquired anything like that.
Derek Gottlieb
HPC Systems Analyst, CSC
Alabama Supercomputer Center
686 Discovery Dr., Huntsville, AL 35806
High Performance Computing | dgottlieb at asc.edu | www.asc.edu
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans
<oltmansg at gmail.com>
wrote:
I wonder if our local Alabama Supercomputer
Authority office might have
archives of software for the Cray X-MP and on. They are down the street
It may be worth asking. I know a few people who've gone through hades
and back just to get Unicos for more recent Cray hardware.
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healyzh＠aracnet.com -
henk.gooijen＠hotmail.com -
jdr_use＠bluewin.ch -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jon＠jonworld.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mta＠umich.edu -
oltmansg＠gmail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
wilson＠dbit.com