10 Apr
2013
10 Apr
'13
12:12 p.m.
I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with a
friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is
strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done.
On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and
down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the
floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where
this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it should
be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed
position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and
then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This
approach did free it up enough that it moves from "open" without the
floppy, but when the motor goes to eject it, the mechanism is still a bit
slow to move (which prevents the disk from ejecting by motor alone). Using
the good ol' paper-clip shows that that mechanism works fine, though is
just a little slow... which tells us that it's still not as free as it
should be.
We're trying to figure what type of lubricant would have been on this
before (or what would be the proper modern replacement)
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
Earl
10 Apr
10 Apr
2:58 p.m.
I have used a couple of things when fixing stuck floppy mechanisms with
good success. First it's best to thoroughly clean the mechanism of all the
caked/dried oil/grease. You can do this with some WD-40 or some other
penetrating oil like PB blaster if it's really caked on, and sometimes just
diluting it with the replacement oil is enough to loosen it up and wipe it
away. I then either replace with white lithium bearing grease (such as you
get from the auto parts store), or a lightweight oil like 3-in-1. Just
enough to lubricate the areas where there are rollers or metal guides
touching metal, and wipe off the excess.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Earl Baugh <earl at baugh.org> wrote:
I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs
(a 128 and 512) with a
friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is
strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done.
On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and
down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the
floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where
this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it
should
be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed
position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and
then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This
approach did free it up enough that it moves from "open" without the
floppy, but when the motor goes to eject it, the mechanism is still a bit
slow to move (which prevents the disk from ejecting by motor alone). Using
the good ol' paper-clip shows that that mechanism works fine, though is
just a little slow... which tells us that it's still not as free as it
should be.
We're trying to figure what type of lubricant would have been on this
before (or what would be the proper modern replacement)
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
Earl
3:50 p.m.
WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a water dispersant. Hence the name
WD. It will dry in a short amount of time and leave it gummed up again.
It also does one other thing, as it looses it solvents, it leave water as the
last part to evaporate. This tends to cause corrosion.
After using it, wipe it off and use a proper lubricant.
Also make sure that the spray does not get on the heads as it will
cause damage to the floppy you put in. It must be completely cleaned
from the surface of the head if sprayed anywhere near
the heads.
Dwight
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:58:48 -0500
Subject: Re: What is the correct material to use..
From: oltmansg at gmail.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
I have used a couple of things when fixing stuck floppy mechanisms with
good success. First it's best to thoroughly clean the mechanism of all the
caked/dried oil/grease. You can do this with some WD-40 or some other
penetrating oil like PB blaster if it's really caked on, and sometimes just
diluting it with the replacement oil is enough to loosen it up and wipe it
away. I then either replace with white lithium bearing grease (such as you
get from the auto parts store), or a lightweight oil like 3-in-1. Just
enough to lubricate the areas where there are rollers or metal guides
touching metal, and wipe off the excess.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Earl Baugh <earl at baugh.org> wrote:
> I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with a
> friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is
> strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done.
>
> On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and
> down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the
> floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where
> this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it
should
> be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed
> position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and
> then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This
> approach did free it up enough that it moves from "open" without the
> floppy, but when the motor goes to eject it, the mechanism is still a bit
> slow to move (which prevents the disk from ejecting by motor alone). Using
> the good ol' paper-clip shows that that mechanism works fine, though is
> just a little slow... which tells us that it's still not as free as it
> should be.
>
> We're trying to figure what type of lubricant would have been on this
> before (or what would be the proper modern replacement)
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Earl
>
4:44 p.m.
On 4/10/13 12:50 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a water dispersant.
correct.
read what he wrote.
> I have used a couple of things when fixing stuck
floppy mechanisms with
> good success. First it's best to thoroughly clean the mechanism of all the
> caked/dried oil/grease. You can do this with some WD-40 or some other
> penetrating oil like PB blaster if it's really caked on
Stoddard solvent works just fine for this application.
He then lubes it with lithium grease, which is also the right thing to do.
5:03 p.m.
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:44:03 -0700
From: aek at bitsavers.org
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: What is the correct material to use..
On 4/10/13 12:50 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
I don't see anywhere he says he removed the WD-40 and replaced it with lithium
grease.
I see where another suggested lithium grease but not that he did. Maybe
I'm getting old.
Dwight
WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a water
dispersant.
correct.
read what he wrote.
> I have used a couple of things when fixing
stuck floppy mechanisms with
> good success. First it's best to thoroughly clean the mechanism of all the
> caked/dried oil/grease. You can do this with some WD-40 or some other
> penetrating oil like PB blaster if it's really caked on
Stoddard solvent works just fine for this application.
He then lubes it with lithium grease, which is also the right thing to do.
4:41 p.m.
On Wed, 10 Apr 2013, Earl Baugh wrote:
I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs
(a 128 and 512) with
a friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is
strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done.
On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up
and down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks
the floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point
where this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as
it should be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the
open or closed position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and
isopropyl alcohol) and then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip
as well) as a start. This approach did free it up enough that it moves
from "open" without the floppy, but when the motor goes to eject it, the
mechanism is still a bit slow to move (which prevents the disk from
ejecting by motor alone). Using the good ol' paper-clip shows that that
mechanism works fine, though is just a little slow... which tells us
that it's still not as free as it should be.
We're trying to figure what type of lubricant would have been on this
before (or what would be the proper modern replacement)
Any thoughts?
When I run into this with floppy drive and other mechanical stuff, I
disassemble the mechanical parts, remove any old grease with mineral
spirits (aka paint thinner)* and a toothbrush, and then replace the grease
with something equivalent or better. Depending on the application, I might
use a brown or white lithium based grease, a polyurea grease, or a
synthetic grease containing either silicone or teflon (or some blend of
the two). With metal to metal contact points such as what you find in
these drives, I usually just use a lithium based grease. It is important
to first clean and remove any old grease completely though, because some
types of greases are incompatible, and you generally can't identify if a
grease is lithium or polyurea based just by its color.
As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a replacement for grease or oil. It
works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the water out of
parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with a detergent based
degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients is a light solvent,
and the small amount of oil it contains tend to gum up later if not
removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do not recommend the use of
"3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly a door hinge. Because it is
vegetable based and not petroleum based, it too will gum up later.
*The "used" mineral spirits can be reused if you pour it off into an
airtight jar and allow the grease and other solids to settle to the
bottom. Because I frequently clean a lot of mechanical stuff in solvents,
I keep a number of glass quart and gallon size jars on hand for just this
purpose.
5:17 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a
replacement for grease or oil. It
works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the water out of
parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with a detergent based
degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients is a light solvent, and
the small amount of oil it contains tend to gum up later if not
removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do not recommend the use of
"3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly a door hinge. Because it is
vegetable based and not petroleum based, it too will gum up later.
Ah, good to know on the 3-in-1 stuff. Like I said before, I tend to use
that or the lithium grease depending on which is more readily available at
the moment.
5:22 p.m.
Wait... I take that back... according to the MSDS, 3-in-1 is petroleum
based.
http://www.lakeland.edu/AboutUs/MSDS/PDFs/445/3-in-1%20Oil%20%28Doyle%20Mid…
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans <oltmansg at gmail.com>wrote:
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a
replacement for grease or oil.
It works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the water out
of parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with a detergent
based degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients is a light
solvent, and the small amount of oil it contains tend to gum up later if
not removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do not recommend the use
of "3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly a door hinge. Because it
is vegetable based and not petroleum based, it too will gum up later.
Ah, good to know on the 3-in-1 stuff. Like I said before, I tend to use
that or the lithium grease depending on which is more readily available at
the moment.
7:09 p.m.
On Wed, 10 Apr 2013, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans
<oltmansg at gmail.com>wrote:
Interesting. I wonder if they've changed the formula over the years? I was
taught that it was vegetable based, however the high percentage of Heavy
Naphthenic Oil /does/ help explain why it tends to gum up, since the
lighter hydrocarbons are going to evaporate, leaving the heavier stuff
(paraffin) behind.
I think I'll stick with something like Boeshield T-9 if I need something
with a high paraffin content though.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Tothwolf
<tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
Wait... I take that back... according to the MSDS, 3-in-1 is petroleum
based.
http://www.lakeland.edu/AboutUs/MSDS/PDFs/445/3-in-1%20Oil%20%28Doyle%20Mid…
As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a
replacement for grease or
oil. It works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the
water out of parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with
a detergent based degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients
is a light solvent, and the small amount of oil it contains tend to
gum up later if not removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do
not recommend the use of "3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly
a door hinge. Because it is vegetable based and not petroleum based,
it too will gum up later.
Ah, good to know on the 3-in-1 stuff. Like I said before, I tend to use
that or the lithium grease depending on which is more readily available
at the moment.
11 Apr
11 Apr
9:32 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
Interesting. I wonder if they've changed the formula over the years? I was
taught that it was vegetable based, however the high percentage of Heavy
Naphthenic Oil /does/ help explain why it tends to gum up, since the
lighter hydrocarbons are going to evaporate, leaving the heavier stuff
(paraffin) behind.
I think I'll stick with something like Boeshield T-9 if I need something
with a high paraffin content though.
I guess we should bear in mind that the lithium grease that they used on
the drives originally dries out and/or gets contaminated with dust, etc.
and gets gummy over time anyway. :)
Just so people don't have the wrong impression: I was NOT advocating the
use of WD-40 as a replacement lubricant, but rather an aid in cleaning the
drive. Also as Tony just said, the drives eject mechs will work fine
without it since they will see little wear and most of the greased parts
are just guides rather than bearing surfaces (although they serve that
purpose to a minor degree).
3:32 p.m.
I try to stay away from oils when it comes to magnetic media.
Particularly in floppy drives, where the air pressure inside the case is
often negative with respect to the outside, dust and dirt get sucked in
at an amazing rate.
I use pure silicone lube or a dry moly lube such as Drislide:
http://www.drislide.com/
to keep the dirt accumulation down.
--Chuck
3:48 p.m.
On Apr 11, 2013, at 3:32 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I use pure silicone lube or a dry moly lube such as
Drislide:
http://www.drislide.com/
Oh, hey, I never knew about that stuff. Looks like I need to
get some.
- Dave
12 Apr
12 Apr
9:05 a.m.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:32:32PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I use pure silicone lube or a dry moly lube such as Drislide:
http://www.drislide.com/
to keep the dirt accumulation down.
I've tried the Teflon and silicon sprays before for random things I
wanted a try lube for with mixed results. Do you think this stuff works
better?
12:16 p.m.
On 04/12/2013 06:05 AM, David Gesswein wrote:
I've tried the Teflon and silicon sprays before
for random things I
wanted a try lube for with mixed results. Do you think this stuff works
better?
"Better" depends on a lot of things. I find that Dri-slide hangs on
better and lasts longer than either the teflon or silicone sprays, but
that it's mot as neat--moly disulfide is slippery like graphite, and
almost as messy.
--Chuck
10 Apr
10 Apr
6:04 p.m.
I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with a
friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is
strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done.
On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and
down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the
floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where
this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it
should
be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed
position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and
then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This
N omatter waht is says o nthe can, Wanton Destruciton 40 is nto a
usitable lubricant for small mechanisms. In fact this might be what is
gummign things up
On similar SOny drive,s I take them apart as far as possible and creally
clean the parts with propan-2-ol. Keep on workign them back and forth to
get the gunged-up grease out.
Normally they will work properly with no lubricant at all. And wear on
osemthing like an eject mechansim should be minimal.
-tony
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14 comments
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participants (9)
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
djg＠pdp8online.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
earl＠baugh.org -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
oltmansg＠gmail.com -
tothwolf＠concentric.net