3 Jun
2004
3 Jun
'04
2:50 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R. D. Davis" <rdd(a)rddavis.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning?
----- Snip
Relax, don't panic. Realize that they'll
get more lead exposure from
soldering or from pencils and don't waste your time worrying about it.
Pencils? 
4 Jun
4 Jun
11:02 a.m.
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 g-wright(a)att.net wrote:
JOE> Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught
JOE> onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 years
JOE> or more.
JOE> Joe
Boy that puts a different spin having "no Lead in you pencil".
- Jerry
Well, there is a very good chance that most were well supplied.
Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also!
- don
----- Original
Message -----
From: "R. D. Davis" <rdd(a)rddavis.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning?
----- Snip
Relax, don't panic. Realize that they'll
get more lead exposure from
soldering or from pencils and don't waste your time worrying about it.
Pencils? 
2:05 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ben franchuk" <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning?
Don Maslin wrote:
Was beer the drink of the ages? I think the alcohol content of fermented
drinks made them cleaner then any other source of liquid. Lead takes a
while to accumulate in your system, and only the wealthy had plumbing.
Considering how young people died back in the roman times and earlier lead
in their water didn't matter.
Well, there is a very good chance that most were
well supplied.
Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also!
But until the Romans driking wine was safer than drinking the water for
the most part.
- don
5 Jun
5 Jun
3:04 p.m.
Teo Zenios wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "ben franchuk" <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning?
One factor reducing the lead problems for the Romans was the fact that
calcium deposits would form in the pipes, protecting the water from the
lead.
But then there was the Roman "artificial sweetener" (powdered lead).
Don Maslin wrote:
Was beer the drink of the ages? I think the alcohol content of fermented
drinks made them cleaner then any other source of liquid. Lead takes a
while to accumulate in your system, and only the wealthy had plumbing.
Considering how young people died back in the roman times and earlier lead
in their water didn't matter.
Well, there is a very good chance that most were
well supplied.
Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also!
But until the Romans driking wine was safer than drinking the water for
the most part.
- don
6:59 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 06:04:30PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote:
But then there was the Roman "artificial
sweetener" (powdered lead).
Lead Acetate, IIRC... used to sweeten wines. ISTR a scandal or two in
the 20th C. in Europe (Austria?) involving lead acetate adulteration of
wine by a vinyard.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 06-Jun-2004 03:50 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -92.9 F (-69.4 C) Windchill -139.8 F (-95.5 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 14 kts Grid 121 Barometer 660 mb (11388. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
7:07 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 09:09:15PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
As did (and frequently still do) the Greeks. We used to water our wine
at dinner when I was doing archaeology, lest we, um, accidentally
overindulge while eating.
I wouldn't try it with other varieties of wine - they don't stand up
to the practice as well as the some of the Mediterreanean varieties.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 06-Jun-2004 04:01 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -94.8 F (-70.5 C) Windchill -143 F (-97.3 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 14.6 kts Grid 128 Barometer 659.9 mb (11392. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
But until the
Romans driking wine was safer than drinking the water for
the most part.
Yes, but the Romans diluted there wine with water. Kind of disgusting,
actually. 
7:36 a.m.
Quothe Don Maslin, from writings of Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 01:02:18PM -0700:
Well, there is a very good chance that most were well
supplied.
Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also!
Some buildings---and houses, which are far from being ancient, still
exist with water pipes containing lead.
--
Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
9:32 a.m.
At 12:36 PM 6/5/04 -0400, you wrote:
Quothe Don Maslin, from writings of Fri, Jun 04, 2004
at 01:02:18PM -0700:
Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only
used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have
been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years.
Joe
Well, there is a very good chance that most were
well supplied.
Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also!
Some buildings---and houses, which are far from being ancient, still
exist with water pipes containing lead.
10:41 a.m.
Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there
lead
pipes are only used for drainage and not for incoming water.
I don't think lead pipes have been used for incoming water
for AT LEAST 150 years.
Here in the UK, lead pipes were used for incoming water
until relatively recently (for values of recently in
the region of "but not in the last three or four decades
or so"). My parent's house (built in the 1950s I believe)
originally had an incoming supply via a lead pipe.
These days it's all plastic (until either the water board
external stop-cock or the under-the-kitchen-sink stopcock).
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
2:01 p.m.
Well no, some houses here still have a lead pipe bringing in water - despite
years of grants offered to upgrade.
Generally speaking it's the older people in an older property who see no
reason to upgrade.
After all, they've had it all their lives.........
Geoff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio Carlini" <arcarlini(a)iee.org>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: vintage computers and lead poisoning?
Here in the UK, lead pipes were used for incoming
water
until relatively recently (for values of recently in
the region of "but not in the last three or four decades
or so"). My parent's house (built in the 1950s I believe)
originally had an incoming supply via a lead pipe.
These days it's all plastic (until either the water board
external stop-cock or the under-the-kitchen-sink stopcock).
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
1:42 p.m.
Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only
used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have
been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years.
Maybe not in the States, but this house, built about 70 years ago, still
has lead water pipes. Admittedly not for drinking water, but for some of
the distribution system from the water tank in the loft (roof space).
We replace it when it gives trouble, and use the lead pipe to make
weights (seriously!)
-tony
3:15 p.m.
Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there
lead pipes are only
used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have
been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years.
When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with?
In addition, most of the public say "lead pipe" when talking about
galvanized iron.
3:25 p.m.
At 05:15 PM 6/5/04 -0700, you wrote:
today: Tin 99+% Previously: Why do you think they called it
"soldering"? The fortunate thing is that virtually all of it is IN the
joint and very little is exposed to the water.
Joe
Lead pipes
are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only
used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have
been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years.
When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? 
3:43 p.m.
This day and age... silver solder.
Jim
On Saturday, Jun 5, 2004, at 17:15 US/Pacific, Fred Cisin wrote:
Lead pipes
are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are
only
used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead
pipes have
been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years.
When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with?
3:45 p.m.
I stand myself corrected. 95% tin, 5% copper.
Jim
On Saturday, Jun 5, 2004, at 17:15 US/Pacific, Fred Cisin wrote:
Lead pipes
are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are
only
used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead
pipes have
been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years.
When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with?
6:01 p.m.
When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with?
IOn the UK, pipes for drinking water now have to be soldered with
lead-free solder. I am not sure (a) how much a problem leaded solder was
and (b) if the lead-free stuff is actually any safer...
In addition, most of the public say "lead
pipe" when talking about
galvanized iron.
I can assure you the stuff we have over here is lead, or at least a
high-lead-containing alloy. It melts at far too low a temperature to be
iron, and it has a density similar to that of lead.
-tony
7:10 p.m.
> When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered
with?
today: Tin 99+% Previously: Why do you think they
called it
"soldering"? The fortunate thing is that virtually all of it is IN the
joint and very little is exposed to the water.
....
This day and age... silver solder.
....
I stand myself corrected. 95% tin, 5% copper.
....
In the UK, pipes for drinking water now have to be
soldered with
lead-free solder. I am not sure (a) how much a problem leaded solder was
and (b) if the lead-free stuff is actually any safer...
When was the "changeover"?
Parts of my house are a hundred years old, and I'm sure
that I'm not the only one who does not live in a
little box on the hillside made of ticky-tacky.
> In addition, most of the public say "lead
pipe" when talking about
> galvanized iron.
I can assure you the stuff we have over here is lead,
or at least a
high-lead-containing alloy. It melts at far too low a temperature to be
iron, and it has a density similar to that of lead.
I'm certainly not questioning the existence of lead pipe -
I replaced some in my house with iron pipe.
But it's less common now than it used to be, and I've run
into more than a few extraordinarily ignorant people who
will point to a piece of galvanized pipe and [INCORRECTLY]
call it "lead pipe" (including staff at Home Depot!)
About thirty years ago, Seattle found out that there were
still bamboo pipes in active use!
6 Jun
6 Jun
4:29 a.m.
At 09:10 PM 6/5/04 -0700, you wrote:
The military base/prison at Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas still has parts of
their original wooden water pipe in use. IIRC the fort was originally built
in the 1830s. I'm not sure when the pipe was installed but it was certainly
before the War of Northern Agression (aka the Civil War to less literate of
you). I believe that there are number of cities that still have parts of
their original wooden water pipes in use including London UK.
Joe
> When
copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with?
today: Tin 99+% Previously: Why do you think
they called it
"soldering"? The fortunate thing is that virtually all of it is IN the
joint and very little is exposed to the water.
....
This day and age... silver solder.
....
I stand myself corrected. 95% tin, 5% copper.
....
In the UK, pipes for drinking water now have to
be soldered with
lead-free solder. I am not sure (a) how much a problem leaded solder was
and (b) if the lead-free stuff is actually any safer...
When was the "changeover"?
Parts of my house are a hundred years old, and I'm sure
that I'm not the only one who does not live in a
little box on the hillside made of ticky-tacky.
> In addition, most of the public say
"lead pipe" when talking about
> galvanized iron.
I can assure you the stuff we have over here is
lead, or at least a
high-lead-containing alloy. It melts at far too low a temperature to be
iron, and it has a density similar to that of lead.
I'm certainly not questioning the existence of lead pipe -
I replaced some in my house with iron pipe.
But it's less common now than it used to be, and I've run
into more than a few extraordinarily ignorant people who
will point to a piece of galvanized pipe and [INCORRECTLY]
call it "lead pipe" (including staff at Home Depot!)
About thirty years ago, Seattle found out that there were
still bamboo pipes in active use!
10:33 a.m.
Quothe Joe R., from writings of Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 09:29:21AM -0400:
The military base/prison at Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas
still has parts of
their original wooden water pipe in use. IIRC the fort was originally built
in the 1830s. I'm not sure when the pipe was installed but it was certainly
before the War of Northern Agression (aka the Civil War to less literate of
Ah yes, the war started by that tall skinny despot in the White House,
who decided that states rights didn't matter. To prove his point, and
to get those "unpatriotic" people who valued states' rights and didn't
want to pay the high taxes, he unleashed his troops, led by a general
who was anything but a gentleman, to burn, pillage and rape throughout
the South. The past few present administrations are shining examples
of that despot's legacy, determined to prove that the federal
government should have all of the rights and that the people are
supoposed to have virtually none, particularly if such rights
interfere with corruption, greed and other related preoccupations of
the politicians and their corporate puppeteers.
you). I believe that there are number of cities that
still have parts of
their original wooden water pipes in use including London UK.
Very interesting. I wonder what condition those pipes are in by now.
--
Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
6:16 a.m.
Quothe Fred Cisin, from writings of Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 09:10:58PM -0700:
Parts of my house are a hundred years old, and I'm
sure
that I'm not the only one who does not live in a
little box on the hillside made of ticky-tacky.
True, but those who live in those flimsy new houses seem to forget
that others do live in real houses that were built to last more than
twenty-five years or so. As a result, some hardware stores don't even
stock basic household hardware for some older houses like door knobs
with a square threaded shafts connecting the knobs, selling some sort
of newfangled doorknob mechanisms instead.
I'm certainly not questioning the existence of
lead pipe -
Joe may not believe it, but it has been used for incoming water pipes,
in the U.S., in houses, schools and many other buildings within the
past 100 years.
I replaced some in my house with iron pipe.
But it's less common now than it used to be, and I've run
into more than a few extraordinarily ignorant people who
will point to a piece of galvanized pipe and [INCORRECTLY]
call it "lead pipe" (including staff at Home Depot!)
Hmmm... do they call black iron pipe lead pipe as well? Most likely.
From what I've read, the new black iron pipe
isn't threaded, and gets
connected with fittings that will most likely wear out
well before the
pipe does. Seems to me that the goal is not to build houses with
piping that lasts, but piping that provides plumbers with good
incomes.
--
Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
7:45 a.m.
At 11:16 06/06/2004 -0400, you wrote:
Hmmm... do they call black iron pipe lead pipe as well?
Most likely.
My father took on a modern shoe-box a few years ago as part-ex for the sale
of their old house; they rent it out now, but the plumbing caused no end of
problems. All the pipework on the central heating system was plastic, with
fittings glued to the pipes. Of course, pumping very hot water around
quickly (in terms of life of a house, even these shoddy ones) caused the
plastic to go brittle, and all it took was a radiator pipe being bumped
with a vacuum cleaner to break one... this was after a hot water pipe to
the kitchen sink ballooned up before bursting...
He had it completely re-done in copper pipe in the end.. No problems since!
Rob
From what I've read, the new black iron pipe
isn't threaded, and gets
connected with fittings that will most likely wear out
well before the
pipe does. Seems to me that the goal is not to build houses with
piping that lasts, but piping that provides plumbers with good
incomes.
8:13 a.m.
At 05:45 PM 6/6/04 +0100, you wrote:
At 11:16 06/06/2004 -0400, you wrote:
He's lucky! They use copper around here and about ten years ago they
started coming out with some kind of very thin wall stuff. Houses have been
springing leaks left and right! My mother-in-law has had about six major
leaks in the last five years. They've had to tear big holes in the walls to
get to the leaks to fix them (not to mention the water damage). The
plumbers have told her that the next time it happens that she needs to have
the entire house replumbed. One brand new house in my mother's area was
condemmed due to the number of leaks and the amount of damage that they
caused.
I'm not critisizing copper pipe, that's what I have. But there have been
a LOT of problems with it in this area in the last ten years or so due to
the poor quality of the pipe.
Joe
Hmmm... do they call black iron pipe lead pipe as
well? Most likely.
My father took on a modern shoe-box a few years ago as part-ex for the sale
of their old house; they rent it out now, but the plumbing caused no end of
problems. All the pipework on the central heating system was plastic, with
fittings glued to the pipes. Of course, pumping very hot water around
quickly (in terms of life of a house, even these shoddy ones) caused the
plastic to go brittle, and all it took was a radiator pipe being bumped
with a vacuum cleaner to break one... this was after a hot water pipe to
the kitchen sink ballooned up before bursting...
He had it completely re-done in copper pipe in the end.. No problems since! From what I've read, the new black iron pipe
isn't threaded, and gets
connected with fittings that will most likely wear out
well before the
pipe does. Seems to me that the goal is not to build houses with
piping that lasts, but piping that provides plumbers with good
incomes. 
10:01 a.m.
He's lucky! They use copper around here and about ten years ago they
started coming out with some kind of very thin wall stuff. Houses have
been
springing leaks left and right! My mother-in-law has
had about six major
leaks in the last five years. They've had to tear big holes in the walls
to
get to the leaks to fix them (not to mention the water
damage). The
plumbers have told her that the next time it happens that she needs to
have
the entire house replumbed. One brand new house in my
mother's area was
condemmed due to the number of leaks and the amount of damage that they
caused.
I'm not critisizing copper pipe, that's what I have. But there have
been
a LOT of problems with it in this area in the last
ten years or so due to
the poor quality of the pipe.
Joe
I seem to remember a class-action suit about this pipe. Might be worth
checking into.
bm
12:31 p.m.
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, R. D. Davis wrote:
True, but those who live in those flimsy new houses
seem to forget
that others do live in real houses that were built to last more than
twenty-five years or so. As a result, some hardware stores don't even
stock basic household hardware for some older houses like door knobs
with a square threaded shafts connecting the knobs, selling some sort
of newfangled doorknob mechanisms instead.
But you do not often need to replace the square shaft ones,
unless you've left the setscrew loose and stripped it,
or chipped one of the glass ones.
From what I've read, the new black iron pipe
isn't threaded,
I've always bought the long lengths of it unthreaded.
That's what Ridgid pipe threading dies are for.
But, It's more convenient to buy the really short
pieces ("nipples") already threaded.
Still, these days, you need to sift through the entire
stock to find some with GOOD threads.
9:21 p.m.
ah! an the nasty ass smell of pipe threading oil......
I think they put sulphur in the stuff.... what a flash back!
ed!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning?
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, R. D. Davis wrote:
True, but those who live in those flimsy new
houses seem to forget
that others do live in real houses that were built to last more than
twenty-five years or so. As a result, some hardware stores don't even
stock basic household hardware for some older houses like door knobs
with a square threaded shafts connecting the knobs, selling some sort
of newfangled doorknob mechanisms instead.
But you do not often need to replace the square shaft ones,
unless you've left the setscrew loose and stripped it,
or chipped one of the glass ones.
From what I've read, the new black iron pipe
isn't threaded,
I've always bought the long lengths of it unthreaded.
That's what Ridgid pipe threading dies are for.
But, It's more convenient to buy the really short
pieces ("nipples") already threaded.
Still, these days, you need to sift through the entire
stock to find some with GOOD threads.
5 Jun
5 Jun
7:04 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 05:15:31PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
Lead-free plumbing solder - Tin and Antimony alloy, IIRC.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 06-Jun-2004 04:01 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -94.8 F (-70.5 C) Windchill -143 F (-97.3 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 14.6 kts Grid 128 Barometer 659.9 mb (11392. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
Lead pipes
are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only
used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have
been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years.
When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? 
7 Jun
7 Jun
3:51 a.m.
My house (in the north of England) has a lead pipe for the supply.
I know it's lead, because it runs unexposed for about three feet (and
unsupported) in the kitchen, where it snakes in and out of the floor. I
know it's lead because you can bend it back and forth.
The house is about 100 years old, and I bet it's been retrofitted for
running water. In fact, I know it has, as it still have the opening for the
midden in the alleyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe R." <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning?
Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only
used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes
have
been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years.
Joe
"Well if it makes you feel any better, he's probably doing her right now."
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