30 Jan
2008
30 Jan
'08
7:12 p.m.
Hi Guys,
Recently acquired a goodly amount of DEC gear - I had put the Q-BUS
stuff aside while I got the "all in one" VAXstation/VAXservers up and
running, but I'm starting to collect information - I've no experience
whatsoever with Q-bus, but from what I've read, I understand that it
will take a bit of research to determine how to properly configure
and position the boards.
I'm hoping that I have enough material to built up at least one
(possibly 2) nice little PDP-11's, and/or a MicroVax II)
At this point, all I'm really looking for is a good "starting point".
Can anyone recomment a good document/resources for a Q-bus newbie?
Btw, this is what I've got - If there's anything I'm obviously missing,
or will have to find extra parts for, please advise me so that I can
start looking...
Three chassis:
BA-23: complete with outer shell and end caps. It bears a
"MicroVAX II" label on the console switch panel, and has a
floppy drive (dual disk) installed in it.
I don't know the model numbers for the next two:
- One looks like a BA32 but smaller, and has the "3-switch" PDP
console/display panel on it. The cards are inserted from the
front beside the panel.
- The last one is the smallest, looks much like the one above,
complete with 3-switch console/display panel, however instead
of metal side/top/bottom plates, it has a "wire cage". It also
has a second expansion chassis of similar construction with no
power supply or console panel.
I've got the following DEC Q-BUS cards:
(Descriptions taken from the "Field Guide to Q-BUS and Unbus modules"
M3106 4-line async
M7264 11/03 processor with 4-Kword RAM
M7504 Ethernet adapter (older DEQNA)
M7546 TMSCP controller for TK50
M7555 Winchester and floppy disk controller
M7606 MicroVAX II KA630
M7608 x2 2/4 MB RAM (boards are fully populated)
M7940 x2 SLU Module
M7944 x3 4-Kword RAM
M7946 x2 RX01 floppy disk controller
M8043 x2 4-SLU peripheral interface
M8044DB x2 32Kword RAM
M8044DF x2 32Kword RAM
M8047 RAM, Async, ROMs
M8186 11/23 CPU
M9047 Grant continuity
M9400YA 120-ohm terminators with refresh & floppy boot
M9400YE Headers and 250 Ohm resistors
I've also got the following third party cards - I don't know
anything about these, other than the identifying marks found
on the boards listed below - if anyone can provide more
information on these, that would be helpful: (Several of them
appear to be media controllers of one sort or another).
Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge)
Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge)
TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge)
Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge)
SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge)
Versatec LSI-11 P/P Interface (40 pin connector at front edge)
Sigma Information Systems Assy 40100
- This board has one 40 + one 50 pin connector, and a place to
populate another 40 pin - none are at the front edge.
W951 "Flip Chip"
- This board has places for various sized chips (most of them populated)
with pins to wire-wrap connections between them - looks like some sort
of prototyping board.
+ A couple of the little grant continuity boards.
I don't expect this to be a short journy, but it should be interesting...
Thanks in advance for any advice/tips.
Regards,
Dave
--
dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html
31 Jan
31 Jan
3:10 a.m.
On 31/01/2008 03:12, Dave Dunfield wrote:
At this point, all I'm really looking for is a
good "starting point".
Can anyone recomment a good document/resources for a Q-bus newbie?
There are more descriptive documents, but to identify backplanes and
related things, you might want to look at
http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis
and possibly some of the other files in that directory
(http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/)
M3106 4-line async
M7264 11/03 processor with 4-Kword RAM
M7504 Ethernet adapter (older DEQNA)
M7546 TMSCP controller for TK50
M7555 Winchester and floppy disk controller
M7606 MicroVAX II KA630
M7608 x2 2/4 MB RAM (boards are fully populated)
M7940 x2 SLU Module
M7944 x3 4-Kword RAM
M7946 x2 RX01 floppy disk controller
M8043 x2 4-SLU peripheral interface
M8044DB x2 32Kword RAM
M8044DF x2 32Kword RAM
M8047 RAM, Async, ROMs
M8186 11/23 CPU
M9047 Grant continuity
M9400YA 120-ohm terminators with refresh & floppy boot
M9400YE Headers and 250 Ohm resistors
I've also got the following third party cards - I don't know
anything about these, other than the identifying marks found
on the boards listed below - if anyone can provide more
information on these, that would be helpful: (Several of them
appear to be media controllers of one sort or another).
Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge)
Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge)
TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge)
Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge)
SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge)
Versatec LSI-11 P/P Interface (40 pin connector at front edge)
Sigma Information Systems Assy 40100
- This board has one 40 + one 50 pin connector, and a place to
populate another 40 pin - none are at the front edge.
W951 "Flip Chip"
- This board has places for various sized chips (most of them populated)
with pins to wire-wrap connections between them - looks like some sort
of prototyping board.
+ A couple of the little grant continuity boards.
I don't expect this to be a short journy, but it should be interesting...
Thanks in advance for any advice/tips.
Regards,
Dave
--
dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html
--
This email has been verified as Virus free.
Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
3:43 a.m.
On 31/01/2008 03:12, Dave Dunfield wrote:
At this point, all I'm really looking for is a
good "starting point".
Can anyone recomment a good document/resources for a Q-bus newbie?
There are more descriptive documents, but as a reference to identify
backplanes and related things, you might want to look at
http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis
and possibly some of the other files in that directory
(http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/)
One thing that can be confusing is the xx-bit terminology. All the
PDP-11 processors are 16-bit (data-wise) but there are several different
address ranges: 16-bit, limited to 64KB (32KWords); 18-bit, limited to
256KB; and 22-bit, with the full 4MB range. Similarly, some backplanes,
memory cards and bus terminators only support 16 or 18 address lines.
However, I/O devices generally use the I/O page, which is always the top
page in the memory map, and uses a special signal for access regardless
of how many memory lines the system has. The gotcha is that some early
DMA devices only have 18 address lines for accessing the buffers in
system memory.
M3106 4-line async
DHV11, needs a breakout
cable for the four lines.
M7555 Winchester and floppy disk controller
That's an RQDX3, so you might want to check the ROM revisions on it. It
is supposed to be used in a chassis that has a built-in board for all
the cable connections to the drives, or with a breakout board such as an
M9058, but you can make your own breakout cable or board (there's a PCB
layout for a board and a document describing the connections on my
website, should you ever need them). I'd guess this one came from your
MicroVAX and probably has fairly up-to-date ROMs.
M7606 MicroVAX II KA630
M7608 x2 2/4 MB RAM (boards are fully populated)
These go together. You
can't use that MS630 memory on an ordinary QBus
(PDP-11) machine, as it connects to the CPU by the over-the-top connectors.
M7946 x2 RX01 floppy disk controller
For an
RX01 dual 8" floppy, of course, but it can also be used with an
RX02 dual floppy if you set some switches inside the RX02. However, you
can't use it with standard (eg SA800-style) floppy drives.
M8047 RAM, Async, ROMs
That's an old
MXV11-A and probably came with the 11/03. It's not
terribly useful for the 11/23 unless you only use older peripherals, and
it won't work with the MicroVAX.
M8186 11/23 CPU
That's a basic 11/23
processor, and might be either 18-bit if it's an
early one, or 22-bit otherwise (the common ones are 22-bit). They were
often used as upgrades to older 11/03 systems. The CPU chip is the
40-pin ceramic carrier with two chips on it, furthest from the edge of
the board. If it doesn't have the MMU chip, a plain-looking 40-pin
ceramic chip at the edge of the board, it will only access 64KB. It may
have an optional FPU, which is a 40-pin ceramic carrier with two smaller
chips on it, like the CPU.
M9400YA 120-ohm terminators with refresh &
floppy boot
That's 18-bit only, so will only really be useful with the 11/03,
unless
your 11/23 is an early one that's 18-bit, or was only set up as an
18-bit system.
M9400YE Headers and 250 Ohm resistors
That's usually used as a bus extender for a second chassis. Is/was
there another card (M9401) with it?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
8:40 a.m.
At 10:12 PM -0500 1/30/08, Dave Dunfield wrote:
You'll need to do some more research, but here goes... You need to
ID the backplanes for sure so that you don't blow something up.
Three chassis:
BA-23: complete with outer shell and end caps. It bears a
"MicroVAX II" label on the console switch panel, and has a
floppy drive (dual disk) installed in it.
22-bit, for the MicroVAX II CPU you have
I don't know the model numbers for the next
two:
- One looks like a BA32 but smaller, and has the "3-switch" PDP
console/display panel on it. The cards are inserted from the
front beside the panel.
Likely an 18-bit backplane for the -11/23 CPU.
- The last one is the smallest, looks much like the
one above,
complete with 3-switch console/display panel, however instead
of metal side/top/bottom plates, it has a "wire cage". It also
has a second expansion chassis of similar construction with no
power supply or console panel.
I'm guessing this is a 16-bit backplane for the -11/03
I've also got the following third party cards - I
don't know
anything about these, other than the identifying marks found
on the boards listed below - if anyone can provide more
information on these, that would be helpful: (Several of them
appear to be media controllers of one sort or another).
Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge)
Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge)
TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge)
Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge)
SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge)
Have you Googled these? Google Groups aka DejaNews will be the most
help. The first three *might* be some sort of SCSI, if so I'm
guessing that second one talks to tape drives. Can you provide
pictures of the 3rd party boards? Those are more useful.
Versatec LSI-11 P/P Interface (40 pin connector at
front edge)
Useless, it's for a Versatec plotter.
Did you get any drives with any of this stuff?
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
1:22 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 08:40:35AM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote:
A BA-23 will work fine for PDP-11s as well... they were sold as
"MicroPDP" systems. While a KDF11-A (half-height 11/23 CPU board)
will work, it's probably not the best choice, since a KDF11-A
is a CPU only, no peripherals.
In the MicroPDP line, one common low-end option was an -11/53
CPU board (can't recall the exact part number, but it might
be KDJ11-mumble). There was also the -11/73 variety (definitely
something like a KDJ11-B), the same J-11 CPU as the -11/53, but
clocked a bit faster (and originally priced a bit higher).
Some of the J-11 quad height boards have on-board memory (like
the -11/53), I think some do not. These are new enough that my
experience is a little fuzzy from the old days. I do have an -11/53
board w/1MB onboard, but it came from a different sort of box than
a BA-23, and I haven't played with it much.
Also, if you are inexperienced with Q-bus, you might not realize
that the BA-23 has two flavors of slots. In a standard MicroVAX
configuration, it really won't be a problem, as the CPU and memory
occupy the top three slots, the ones that are different. The bottom
six slots are idential and "standard" Q-bus. If you are trying to
configure something out of the ordinary, it will probably come up
as an issue. Not to fill a page with the details, but the keywords
are "CD interconnect" and "AB-AB" or just plain "Q22" slots.
You
can probably search the message archives for this group and see
lots of details of Qbus backplanes being discussed here in the past.
Another BA-11, but I forget the letter designation off the top of my
head.
Three chassis:
BA-23: complete with outer shell and end caps. It bears a
"MicroVAX II" label on the console switch panel, and has a
floppy drive (dual disk) installed in it.
22-bit, for the MicroVAX II CPU you have I don't
know the model numbers for the next two:
- One looks like a BA32 but smaller, and has the "3-switch" PDP
console/display panel on it. The cards are inserted from the
front beside the panel.
Likely an 18-bit backplane for the -11/23 CPU. From your description, it sounds like a BA-11N, a very
common
11/23 and 11/23+ enclosure.
- The last
one is the smallest, looks much like the one above,
complete with 3-switch console/display panel, however instead
of metal side/top/bottom plates, it has a "wire cage". It also
has a second expansion chassis of similar construction with no
power supply or console panel.
I'm guessing this is a 16-bit backplane for the -11/03 >I've also got the following third party cards
- I don't know
>anything about these, other than the identifying marks found
>on the boards listed below
>
>Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge)
>Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge)
>TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge)
>Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge)
>SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge)
I don't recognise those particular devices, but the MSV05B sounds like a
tape controller, especially with a pair of 50-pin connectors. That's
standard for a Pertec-formatted tape drive interface.
Andromeda makes a lot of powerful peripherals, especially disk controllers.
I don't know specifically what a UDC-11 is, but have a look for anything
that might suggest it's a SCSI interface (NCR or National SCSI controller
chips, three adjacent SIP resistor packs for termination...)
Xylogics was heavy into terminal servers and serial comms. Perhaps the
Wizard 1 is a multi-serial interface.
The part number of the DSC-RXVZ1 suggests it is at least a floppy
controller, but perhaps it is also a hard drive controller. If so, it
probably needs some external breakout board in the same way an DEC
RQDX1/2/3 does. If not, it might be just an 8" drive interface for a
raw drive like an SA800-series drive (not an RX01 or RX02). It would
likely _emulate_ an RXV11 or RXV21 at the register level, but use
inexpensive (at the time) non-DEC drives with a 50-pin interface.
-ethan
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4 Feb
4 Feb
6:56 a.m.
Jerome Fine replies:
I don't like top posting, but this one seemed like it would be appropriate.
Sorry for the delay. Allison's reply is helpful, but I thought I might
add a few words.
Probably your best option is to use the BA23 box. However, for that
option, you
really need a quad M8189 CPU (PDP-11/23) or a quad M8190 CPU (PDP-11/73).
It is entirely possible to use the dual M8186 CPU (PDP-11/23), however,
you will
then require a controller with a boot ROM (usually only available with a
3rd party
disk controller) or you will need to enter the boot program via ODT each
time you
power on the system. Entering the boot program manually (by hand one
instruction
at a time) takes about 5 minutes. A boot program for the MSCP M7555
controller
is available.
Of course, no one seems to have addressed the problem of how to migrate
software.
Do you have any software to run? Do you have any hard drives?
Once you have a working system, the PDP-11 is a real fun computer. But
I might
suggest that before you decide to spend a lot of time and effort to get
a running
system, use the emulators that are available to see if you really like
running the
software. Both SIMH and Ersatz-11 work well, although Ersatz-11 might be
easier since it supports VT100 emulation as part of the application. RT-11
binary distributions (up to V05.03) are available on classiccmp for
download.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
Dave Dunfield wrote:
Hi Guys,
Recently acquired a goodly amount of DEC gear - I had put the Q-BUS
stuff aside while I got the "all in one" VAXstation/VAXservers up and
running, but I'm starting to collect information - I've no experience
whatsoever with Q-bus, but from what I've read, I understand that it
will take a bit of research to determine how to properly configure
and position the boards.
I'm hoping that I have enough material to built up at least one
(possibly 2) nice little PDP-11's, and/or a MicroVax II)
At this point, all I'm really looking for is a good "starting point".
Can anyone recomment a good document/resources for a Q-bus newbie?
Btw, this is what I've got - If there's anything I'm obviously missing,
or will have to find extra parts for, please advise me so that I can
start looking...
Three chassis:
BA-23: complete with outer shell and end caps. It bears a
"MicroVAX II" label on the console switch panel, and has a
floppy drive (dual disk) installed in it.
I don't know the model numbers for the next two:
- One looks like a BA32 but smaller, and has the "3-switch" PDP
console/display panel on it. The cards are inserted from the
front beside the panel.
- The last one is the smallest, looks much like the one above,
complete with 3-switch console/display panel, however instead
of metal side/top/bottom plates, it has a "wire cage". It also
has a second expansion chassis of similar construction with no
power supply or console panel.
I've got the following DEC Q-BUS cards:
(Descriptions taken from the "Field Guide to Q-BUS and Unbus modules"
M3106 4-line async
M7264 11/03 processor with 4-Kword RAM
M7504 Ethernet adapter (older DEQNA)
M7546 TMSCP controller for TK50
M7555 Winchester and floppy disk controller
M7606 MicroVAX II KA630
M7608 x2 2/4 MB RAM (boards are fully populated)
M7940 x2 SLU Module
M7944 x3 4-Kword RAM
M7946 x2 RX01 floppy disk controller
M8043 x2 4-SLU peripheral interface
M8044DB x2 32Kword RAM
M8044DF x2 32Kword RAM
M8047 RAM, Async, ROMs
M8186 11/23 CPU
M9047 Grant continuity
M9400YA 120-ohm terminators with refresh & floppy boot
M9400YE Headers and 250 Ohm resistors
I've also got the following third party cards - I don't know
anything about these, other than the identifying marks found
on the boards listed below - if anyone can provide more
information on these, that would be helpful: (Several of them
appear to be media controllers of one sort or another).
Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge)
Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge)
TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge)
Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge)
SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge)
Versatec LSI-11 P/P Interface (40 pin connector at front edge)
Sigma Information Systems Assy 40100
- This board has one 40 + one 50 pin connector, and a place to
populate another 40 pin - none are at the front edge.
W951 "Flip Chip"
- This board has places for various sized chips (most of them populated)
with pins to wire-wrap connections between them - looks like some sort
of prototyping board.
+ A couple of the little grant continuity boards.
I don't expect this to be a short journy, but it should be interesting...
Thanks in advance for any advice/tips.
Regards,
Dave
--
dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html
5943
days inactive
5947
days old
5 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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dave06a＠dunfield.com -
ethan.dicks＠usap.gov -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com