7 May
2001
7 May
'01
10:14 a.m.
Hi everyone:
I need help to solve a problem. Could anyone lends a hand?
The company I work for has a machine that runs on DOS 2.11
There are some data on that machine that we need to retrieve. The information is
transfered from that old machine to a 1.44mb floppy.
When we put the floppy into our pentium winNT4 computer , we can not read the information
on the floppy. The NT os simply says it does not know what format the files are at.
Now do I need to install a dos 2.11 or is there anyway around it ?
What is the format the dos2.11 writing its files in?
Are there any program that reads in that type of format?
Does any one here have DOS 2.11 that I can download?
Even if I do have DOS 2.11, will I be able to install it or do I need very old hardware as
well?
Jimmy Tsai
SFU engineering 3rd year
7 May
7 May
12:58 p.m.
It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format,
as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone
else?
Jeff
Hi everyone:
I need help to solve a problem. Could anyone lends a hand?
The company I work for has a machine that runs on DOS 2.11
There are some data on that machine that we need to retrieve. The
information is transfered from that old machine to a 1.44mb floppy.
When we put the floppy into our pentium winNT4 computer , we can not
read the information on the floppy. The NT os simply says it does
not know what format the files are at.
Now do I need to install a dos 2.11 or is there anyway around it ?
What is the format the dos2.11 writing its files in?
Are there any program that reads in that type of format?
Does any one here have DOS 2.11 that I can download?
Even if I do have DOS 2.11, will I be able to install it or do I
need very old hardware as well?
Jimmy Tsai
SFU engineering 3rd year
--
Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
1:18 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
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2:08 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
Also, does MS-DOS 2.11 know about anything other than
360K disks? It
might only be using the first 40 cylinders of the disk (and %deity knows
what it's doing to the directory).
Two versions of 2.11 I know of supported 720k disks, one the
DSQD 5-1/4" format while the other is the DSDD 3-1/2" format. (both
Tandy specific). Two other versions I have mention nothing in the
manuals over 360k (Zenith and Corona, though the Corona does mention
160k as well). I was thinking that maybe it would only be formatting
it as 720k and it might not error out if the drive is a true 720k
drive. The high-density drive would of course complain when he tried
to read it though.
Jeff
--
Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
2:59 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
Two versions of 2.11 I know of supported 720k disks,
one the
DSQD 5-1/4" format while the other is the DSDD 3-1/2" format. (both
Tandy specific). Two other versions I have mention nothing in the
manuals over 360k (Zenith and Corona, though the Corona does mention
160k as well). I was thinking that maybe it would only be formatting
it as 720k and it might not error out if the drive is a true 720k
drive. The high-density drive would of course complain when he tried
to read it though.
Jeff
I had a Kaypro 2000 running 2.11 on a 720k drive. I've successfully read
data disks from that system on my PowerMac G4/450 with a 1.44MB USB Floppy
drive.
Zane
3:49 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
I had a Kaypro 2000 running 2.11 on a 720k drive.
I've successfully read
data disks from that system on my PowerMac G4/450 with a 1.44MB USB Floppy
drive.
Zane,
Using which of the emulators? When I was using a PowerCurve
I was able to manipulate DOS disks just fine using SoftPC (yes, I
know it's ancient) but it doesn't like the Teac USB floppy on the B/W
G3/450. As an aside, it was pretty cool the other day at work when
we needed a bare DOS boot disk and the guys in the office couldn't
come up with one. Took me no time at all to format a DOS 5 booter
using my Mac though <g>
Jeff
--
Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
4:26 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
Using which of the emulators? When I was using a
PowerCurve
I was able to manipulate DOS disks just fine using SoftPC (yes, I
know it's ancient) but it doesn't like the Teac USB floppy on the B/W
G3/450.
I'm betting Virtual PC. I use VPC3 myself -- an excellent emulator (but
it's on my PowerMac 7300 [converted to G3/400], so I've already got a
real floppy drive here ;-).
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Justice is incidental to law and order. -- J. Edgar Hoover -----------------
4:39 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
I'm betting Virtual PC. I use VPC3 myself -- an
excellent emulator (but
it's on my PowerMac 7300 [converted to G3/400], so I've already got a
real floppy drive here ;-).
Yep, and VPC4, which I just got, and haven't really used looks to be even
better. I *really* like how you can select different HD images to boot from
when you start VPC4 up! Now I just need a bigger HD to hold a couple
different images :^)
Zane
4:46 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
I'm betting Virtual PC. I use VPC3 myself -- an
excellent emulator (but
it's on my PowerMac 7300 [converted to G3/400], so I've already got a
real floppy drive here ;-).
I figured he was likely using VPC3, but since he has a G4 I
thought he might be running VPC4 as well, or possibly even
SoftWindows. As for the floppy, the USB type does most anything I
want it to do. I just can't use it with SoftPC. One of the main
things I used it for beofre with a standard Mac floppy drive was to
create PS/2 disk images and such. I've begun using my upgraded PM
6100 for that type of thing now.
Jeff
--
Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
4:37 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
Using which of the emulators? When I was using a
PowerCurve
I was able to manipulate DOS disks just fine using SoftPC (yes, I
know it's ancient) but it doesn't like the Teac USB floppy on the B/W
G3/450. As an aside, it was pretty cool the other day at work when
Actually I didn't bother using any emulator. The disks all contained
Word Perfect V4.2 data, and I just copied them over to the Mac's Hard Drive.
When I am using an Emulator I use Virtual PC. I've had no trouble with my
USB Floppy and Virtual PC, though my Mom has had some problems with it and
her LS120 USB drive on her iBook (of course her biggest problem is the
stupid thing can't be plugged into a USB Hub).
Zane
8 May
8 May
4:05 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
You could boot up on a later version of DOS on a 720K floppy...
If all else fails, why not just stick in a 360K drive, write the files on
it, then put the drive in the NT machine (as "B:"?).
I'm sure there are plenty around.
P Manney
7 May
7 May
2:09 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
try using a real 720k 3.5" floppy and format it on the DOS 2 system, you
might have better luck reading it
failing that you can try covering the HD hole (the one opposite to the
write-protect tab) on a high density disk and formatting it as a 720k...
though HD disks dont often work well as 720k disk because the media is
actually different, but it's worth a try
mark
=======================
Mark Nias
http://www.mr2.net
http://www.marknias.com
=======================
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell
Sent: 07 May 2001 23:18
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
--============_-1222849775==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format,
as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone
else?
Yes, that bothered me as well....
Also, most machines that run MS-DOS 2.11 are XTs. Which may well not
support high density drives at all (yes, I know there are high density
controllers for XT machines, but they're not that common).
I am wondering if this is a 1.44Mbyte disk at all. It might be formated
as a 720K disk. In which case a machine with a high density drive and
controller might get very confused.
Also, does MS-DOS 2.11 know about anything other than 360K disks? It
might only be using the first 40 cylinders of the disk (and %deity knows
what it's doing to the directory).
-tony
2:55 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
All the answers are at http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/msdosv.htm
2.11 did not have support for 3-1/2 drives
At 11:18 PM 5/7/01 +0100, you wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gene(a)ehrich.com
gehrich(a)tampabay.rr.com
P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365
http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale
--============_-1222849775==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format,
as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone
else?
Yes, that bothered me as well....
Also, most machines that run MS-DOS 2.11 are XTs. Which may well not
support high density drives at all (yes, I know there are high density
controllers for XT machines, but they're not that common).
I am wondering if this is a 1.44Mbyte disk at all. It might be formated
as a 720K disk. In which case a machine with a high density drive and
controller might get very confused.
Also, does MS-DOS 2.11 know about anything other than 360K disks? It
might only be using the first 40 cylinders of the disk (and %deity knows
what it's doing to the directory).
-tony 
3:25 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote:
All the answers are at
http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/msdosv.htm
Many answers, but NOT all!
BTW, the minor component of the version number is a TWO digit decimal
number, and is internally stored as such. For example, 2.11 is internally
stored as two point eleven (02.0Bh; 3.30 is NOT three point three - it is
stored as three point thirty! (03.1Eh)
2.11 did not have support for 3-1/2 drives
2.11 supported a lot of individual mods.
Gavilan MS-DOS 2.11 supported 3.5" drives
HP and others intro'd 3.5" long before IBM (3.20).
2.11 was the version of DOS that was used.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:13 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
It sounds to
me like it would be quite a non-standard format,
as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone
else?
I am wondering if this is a 1.44Mbyte disk at all. It might be formated
as a 720K disk. In which case a machine with a high density drive and
controller might get very confused. Also, does MS-DOS 2.11 know about anything other than
360K disks? It
might only be using the first 40 cylinders of the disk (and %deity knows
what it's doing to the directory).
MS-DOS 2.11 was the most customized of any version of DOS. It was the one
that MICROS~1 encouraged companies like Gavilan to use. In addition to
360K, many companies added other formats, such as 720K and even
8" DSDD! But I never saw anybody support the 1.4M until v3.30
Various versions of 2.11 would not always be usable on any computer other
than the one that they were customized for.
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
9:51 p.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
Hi,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:
According to an old Peter Norton book, Dos 2.1 only supported 320(!)
and 360K disks. Support for 720 and 1200K came with DOS3.
XTs had to use a separate device driver for the higher densities.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format,
as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone
else?
Yes, that bothered me as well....
Also, most machines that run MS-DOS 2.11 are XTs. Which may well not
support high density drives at all (yes, I know there are high density
controllers for XT machines, but they're not that common).
8 May
8 May
9:59 a.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Stan Barr wrote:
According to an old Peter Norton book, Dos 2.1 only
supported 320(!)
and 360K disks.
There are a lot of people on this list who know a lot about disk
formats. Quoting Norton about disk formats is like quoting billg about
Apple computers.
[BTW, on the Computer Bowl, nither billg nor anyone else on his team knew
where the write protect notch is on an 8" diskette!]
[BTW, Peter Norton has written a bunch of stuff where he refers to DOS
interrrupt vectors by their decimal numbers ("Int 33")]
PC-DOS 2.10 (NOTE there are TWO digits after the period) supported 160K,
180K, 320K, and 360K. Even Peter's own fUtilities supported the SS (160K
and 180K) formats.
Support for 720 and 1200K came with DOS3.
Support for 720K came with MOST versions of MS-DOS 2.11, but not until
3.20 for PC-DOS.
There doesn't exist a PC-DOS 2.11, only MS-DOS.
Support for 1200K (aka "1.2M") came with 3.0
Support for "1.4M" came with 3.30
XTs had to use a separate device driver for the higher
densities.
It takes different HARDWARE, NOT JUST DRIVER, to do higher density, such
as 1.2M or 1.4M formats.
Fortunately, 720K is NOT a higher density. The physical format on each
track is the same as 360K; but there are 80 cylinders instead of 40, and
some software parameters are different for the directory.
With added software, ANY version of DOS can do 720K. But with certain
OEM's MS-DOS 2.11 and with PC-DOS 3.20, XTs are quite happy with 720K.
Actually, it is EASIER to use "other" formats with an XT than an AT, since
an XT doesn't store CMOS info about drive types and/or CARE what kind of
drives are connected.
To use 720K and PC-DOS 3.20 with an XT with an IBM BIOS required using
DRIVER.SYS. To use 720K and PC-DOS 3.20 with a non-IBM BIOS could be done
with DRIVPARM (sets parameters without loading a device driver), which was
present on both MS-DOS and PC-DOS, but undocumented in PC-DOS.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:11 a.m.
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11:52 a.m.
New subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated
Tony Duell wrote:
[BTW, on the
Computer Bowl, nither billg nor anyone else on his team knew
where the write protect notch is on an 8" diskette!]
Did they know that
it's 'inverted' wrt the 5.25" notch -- that is to say
on an 8" disk you cover the notch to enable writing to the disk. That
makes a lot more sense IMHO -- if the tab falls off, the disk is left in
a 'safe' state (write-protected). Onm the other hand, with the 5.25" disk you can
have a permanently
write-protected disk (no notch at all), as was used for some software
distribution kits. You can't do that with the 8" disk -- it's always
possible to stick something over the notch.
Not necessarily true. At one point, I rigged an RX50 drive to think that the
"notch" was still there and was then able to write on the media. Of course,
I still had to format the media since originally it was not RX50 compatible.
At one point, I used an Emulex DM01 with a floppy drive that had a
light sensor to detect the "notch". So for the moment, I unbolted the
sensor and used a flashlight to simulate the "notch" being there.
So don't assume that those "permanently write-protected" floppies can't
have other information written on them - a bit inconvenient, but not
that much of a problem.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
12:43 p.m.
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1:29 p.m.
New subject: No-Notch disks (was: Need help with DOS 2.11
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
The Shugart 455 (aka Matsushita, aka ...) has a jumper that lets you
reverse the write-protect protocol! You can jumper it to enable on
no-notch, and protect on notch (as God intended?)
Many other drives, such as Tandon TM100 can simply be jumpered to
permanently enable or permanently protect.
I always distributed software on 5.25" no-notch disks. I often wondered
if it was worth the extra expense due to the difficulty finding good deals
on them. Then, one day, ...
Some guy demanded his money back and claimed that there was a virus
(Stoned) on the disk! I was VERY concerned, but managed to get back the
copies immediately before and immediately after that serial number
Not
necessarily true. At one point, I rigged an RX50 drive to think that the
"notch" was still there and was then able to write on the media. Of course,
Well, obviously there is a way to write to the disk using a modified
drive. Otherwise, those software distribution kits would be blank.... from that production. They were OK. When the guy sent
the disk back, I
found that he had punched a notch, written to the disk, and then
put a tab
on!
> So don't assume that those "permanently
write-protected" floppies can't
> have other information written on them - a bit inconvenient, but not
> that much of a problem.
I'm glad that that customer wasn't hardware competent enough to figure out
how. Why can't people who want to steal a copy do so discretely? Why
must they destroy the merchandise and render it un-re-sellable? I had
another customer who wanted a refund "because the program had been
destroyed in shipping". But it turned out that the disk had been removed,
presumably copied, and then put back in (but BACKWARDS from the way we
pack the disks!) BEFORE the package was folded and smashed.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
1:59 p.m.
New subject: No-Notch disks (was: Need help with DOS 2.11
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7 May
7 May
2:55 p.m.
On Mon, 7 May 2001, jimmy tsai wrote:
The company I work for has a machine that runs on DOS
2.11
What is the make and model of the computer?
MS-DOS 2.11 was the most heavily customized one.
It was NOT available directly from Microsoft, only as a customized version
from a computer OEM.
Several companies added support for 720K 3.5" disks in their versions of
2.11
NOBODY supported 1.4M in 2.11.
(IBM didn't add 720K support until PC-DOS 3.20 and 1.4M in 3.30)
I am therefore going to guess that you are using a 1.4M diskette, but that
your computer doesn't know from 1.4M and is treating it as if it were a
720K. When you bring that 720K format that is on a 1.4M diskette to your
modern PC, it fails due to the diskette having a different format on it
than the PC expects based on diskette type. Try using a 720K floppy.
However, to further add to the fun:
Since 720K support was locally originated by individual comoputer OEMs,
many of them did NOT use the same format that IBM eventually
adopted. Some did, some didn't. For example, HP had several 3.5" disk
formats that are incompatible with PC. Gavilan's version of 2.11 uses an
incompatible 3.5" format until rev L? of their 2.11, when they switched
format.
What is the make and model of the computer?
In a few cases, the "alien" machine will recognize PC formats and accept
them, even if the native format is different. Try formatting a 720K
floppy (AS A 720K!) in the PC (FORMAT A: /F:720); take it to the alien
machine, try to copy files to it, and bring it back.
If that doesn't work, you MIGHT need to consider other transfer methods,
or special software. http://www.xenosoft.com
What is the make and model of the computer?
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
There are some data on that machine that we need to
retrieve. The information is transfered from that old machine to a 1.44mb floppy.
When we put the floppy into our pentium winNT4 computer , we can not read the information
on the floppy. The NT os simply says it does not know what format the files are at.
Now do I need to install a dos 2.11 or is there anyway around it ?
What is the format the dos2.11 writing its files in?
Are there any program that reads in that type of format?
Does any one here have DOS 2.11 that I can download?
Even if I do have DOS 2.11, will I be able to install it or do I need very old hardware
as well?
Jimmy Tsai
SFU engineering 3rd year
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
8479
days inactive
8480
days old
22 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
gene＠ehrich.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jhellige＠earthlink.net -
jhfine＠idirect.com -
jtsai＠vortek.com -
manney＠hmcltd.net -
markn＠mr2.net -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com