13 Dec
2019
13 Dec
'19
12:09 p.m.
anyone know what system these floppies are for?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445
13 Dec
13 Dec
12:52 p.m.
Those would have fit a Terak system for UCSD Pascal. I?ve still got a few stuffed in a
closet.
David
On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
anyone know what system these floppies are for?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445
1:11 p.m.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, David Barto via cctalk wrote:
Those would have fit a Terak system for UCSD Pascal.
I?ve still got a few stuffed in a closet.
David
> On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> anyone know what system these floppies are for?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445
Some are labeled "MRX", "CP/M", "Isis",
"Chip-?","PROM?",
I do not see any that are labeled "Terak", "UCSD", or
"Pascal"
At least some of them say, "single-sided, soft-sectored double density",
some say "double sided", so they would physically work in a lot of stuff
if reformatted. But imaging is important, as they MIGHT have something
significant on them. "Bubble memory files"?
They sold for $59 to somebody with 8000 feedbacks.
2:17 p.m.
Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote on 12/13/2019 4:11 PM:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, David Barto via cctalk wrote:
There are three that appear to be Intel MDS diskettes.? The ones marked
ISIS V4.3 is, as I remember, the last version of ISIS-II that Intel
released.? ASM51 and RL51 appear to be assembler and relocater for the
8051 series of microcontroller.? And ICE51 was the in-circuit emulator
software for the 8051 series as well.? None of the other labels mean
anything to me, but those three are likely for the Intel Development
System.? Those systems could have single-sided, single-density FM
drives, and/or single-sided double-density M2FM.
The Intel MDS could, of course, run CP/M-80.? So many of those other
diskettes could have CP/M software/files and still be used on the Intel MDS.
Those would have fit a Terak system for UCSD
Pascal. I?ve still got a
few stuffed in a closet.
????David
> On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> anyone know what system these floppies are for?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445
Some are labeled "MRX", "CP/M", "Isis",
"Chip-?","PROM?", I do not see
any that are labeled "Terak", "UCSD", or "Pascal"
At least some of them say, "single-sided, soft-sectored double
density", some say "double sided", so they would physically work in a
lot of stuff if reformatted.? But imaging is important, as they MIGHT
have something significant on them.?? "Bubble memory files"?
They sold for $59 to somebody with 8000 feedbacks.
2:35 p.m.
>>>
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445
> Some are labeled "MRX", "CP/M", "Isis",
"Chip-?","PROM?", I do not
> see any that are labeled "Terak", "UCSD", or "Pascal"
> At least some of them say, "single-sided, soft-sectored double
> density", some say "double sided", so they would physically work in
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Dave Mabry wrote:
There are three that appear to be Intel MDS
diskettes.?? The ones
marked ISIS V4.3 is, as I remember, the last version of ISIS-II that
Intel released.?? ASM51 and RL51 appear to be assembler and relocater
for the 8051 series of microcontroller.?? And ICE51 was the in-circuit
emulator software for the 8051 series as well.?? None of the other
labels mean anything to me, but those three are likely for the Intel
Development System.?? Those systems could have single-sided,
single-density FM drives, and/or single-sided double-density M2FM.
The Intel MDS could, of course, run CP/M-80.?? So many of those other
diskettes could have CP/M software/files and still be used on the
Intel MDS.
Some are labeled double sided. Unless the user punched additional jacket
holes (many of us did), the double sided disks would not have been usable
in a single sided drive. (Unlike 5.25" disks, 8" disks had index hole in
different location)
I never had one, but I have heard that there were drives with two sets of
index sensors that could use both.
So, they might be from more than one system.
Unless Dave Barto has some insider information about this group of disks,
I don't see anything to support the contention that they are Terak UCSD
Pascal. Although, if reformatted, they certainly could be usable.
The content? It certainly is not inconsistent with system(s) being used
in some hardware development.
Since none of them are commercial release disks, they may contain personal
content or personal unreleased projects, raising some issues of the ethics
of releasing the content publicly. (ethics, not legality, for trade
secret information that was acquired accidentally)
4:15 p.m.
On Dec 13, 2019, at 2:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Unless Dave Barto has some insider information about this group of disks, I don't see
anything to support the contention that they are Terak UCSD Pascal. Although, if
reformatted, they certainly could be usable.
My guess is that he doesn?t know anything about Al, so misunderstood the question, and
answered it based on what he thought was being asked.
I agree with the MDS belief that seems common in this thread.
Zane
2:44 p.m.
On 12/13/19 2:17 PM, Dave Mabry via cctalk wrote:
There are three that appear to be Intel MDS
diskettes.? The ones marked
ISIS V4.3 is, as I remember, the last version of ISIS-II that Intel
released.? ASM51 and RL51 appear to be assembler and relocater for the
8051 series of microcontroller.? And ICE51 was the in-circuit emulator
software for the 8051 series as well.? None of the other labels mean
anything to me, but those three are likely for the Intel Development
System.? Those systems could have single-sided, single-density FM
drives, and/or single-sided double-density M2FM.
The Intel MDS could, of course, run CP/M-80.? So many of those other
diskettes could have CP/M software/files and still be used on the Intel
MDS.
MDS was my guess also. The MDS boxes ran the standard CP/M distro from
DRI--no customization needed. (The same was true for MP/M--a second
console was provided via the current-loop interface).
At any rate, it all fits. I wouldn't be surprised if all the floppies
were SS FM ones.
--Chuck
2:54 p.m.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
MDS was my guess also. The MDS boxes ran the
standard CP/M distro from
DRI--no customization needed. (The same was true for MP/M--a second
console was provided via the current-loop interface).
At any rate, it all fits. I wouldn't be surprised if all the floppies
were SS FM ones.
The 2 sided ones could be a different system, or the user added a drive
that could use them (or modified a drive - they look like they were used
in hardware development), or he had a hole punch (a glimpse of one of
those outisde of its sleeve would confirm)
4:10 p.m.
On 12/13/19 2:54 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Some could also be "flippies". Those were made by several manufacturers.
--Chuck
MDS was my guess also.?? The MDS boxes ran the
standard CP/M distro from
DRI--no customization needed. (The same was true for MP/M--a second
console was provided via the current-loop interface).
At any rate, it all fits.?? I wouldn't be surprised if all the floppies
were SS FM ones.
The 2 sided ones could be a different system, or the user added a drive
that could use them (or modified a drive - they look like they were used
in hardware development), or he had a hole punch (a glimpse of one of
those outisde of its sleeve would confirm)
4:41 p.m.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Some could also be "flippies". Those were
made by several manufacturers.
. . . and almost 40 years ago, for my first marketed product, I made and
marketed plexiglass pocket shaped jigs for marking diskettes for punching
them. Several models, a 5.25 into Flippy, and an 8" into SS/Flippy and
DS. One some, I also had a jig for putting on hub-rings.
In the FIRST and LAST picture, at the lower left, the bottom three
diskettes are a Memorex "1S" single sided single density, and two Memorex
"2D" double sided double density.
About half are the Memorex "2D", a handful of the Memorex "1S", a
handful
of Nashua 2D, a scotch 1D, . . .
I'm pretty sure that those are NOT Memorex "flippies".
But, the previous owner could have had one of my jigs or a competing one,
or could have had more than one drive or more than one system, or a drive
that did both.
But the variant types don't invalidate your hypothesis of what system, any
more than finding a few extraneous Macintosh diskettes in the box for your
Windows disks. I assume that you are right, but there are some others
thrown in.
("How the hell did those get mixed together?")
5:01 p.m.
On 12/13/19 4:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
But the variant types don't invalidate your
hypothesis of what system,
any more than finding a few extraneous Macintosh diskettes in the box
for your Windows disks.? I assume that you are right, but there are some
others thrown in.
("How the hell did those get mixed together?")
I wasn't looking very closely, just spitballing. Without the physical
media, that's really all that anyone can do.
A couple of years ago, a customer sent me a batch hard-sector 8" disks
to process. Try as I might, I couldn't get the start of sector data to
match up with the sector holes.
It was then that I realized that the customer simply purchased HS disks
to use on his soft-sector setup. Some 8" drives allowed for jumpering
to bring out the Index and Sector signals separately. Ignore the
sector signal and you've got a soft-sector disk.
Stuff happens.
--Chuck
5:11 p.m.
On 12/13/19 7:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 12/13/19 2:54 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I never saw any flippies commercially made but many
companies made punches for flippy 5.25" disks. I always
had to make my own for 8".
bill
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
wrote:
Some could also be "flippies". Those were made by several manufacturers.
--Chuck
MDS was my guess also.?? The MDS boxes ran the
standard CP/M distro from
DRI--no customization needed. (The same was true for MP/M--a second
console was provided via the current-loop interface).
At any rate, it all fits.?? I wouldn't be surprised if all the floppies
were SS FM ones.
The 2 sided ones could be a different system, or the user added a drive
that could use them (or modified a drive - they look like they were used
in hardware development), or he had a hole punch (a glimpse of one of
those outisde of its sleeve would confirm)
5:22 p.m.
On 12/13/19 5:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I never saw any flippies commercially made but many
companies made punches for flippy 5.25" disks. I always
had to make my own for 8".
They were standard products. Let's see if I can find a period ad...
Well, not an ad, but a precise description:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/3M/3M_Diskette_Reference_Manual_May83.pdf
Page 8, top illustration. 3M added an "R" to the stock number for
"reversible". I have a few in my stash.
--Chuck
6:06 p.m.
On 12/13/19 8:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 12/13/19 5:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
Must have been targeted at the home market as I don't
remember ever seeing them in any of the supplies catalogs
I dealt with. And there were numerous white papers
talking about why it was a really bad idea to spin
floppies in both directions.
bill
I never saw any flippies commercially made but
many
companies made punches for flippy 5.25" disks. I always
had to make my own for 8".
They were standard products. Let's see if I can find a period ad...
Well, not an ad, but a precise description:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/3M/3M_Diskette_Reference_Manual_May83.pdf
Page 8, top illustration. 3M added an "R" to the stock number for
"reversible". I have a few in my stash. 
6:11 p.m.
Oh the things companies did to try and increase their profits! Bad idea
indeed, reversible just meant half the profit for the suppliers!
On the same vein, we ordered a TWX line form Bell but supplied our own
machine. Bell said they were not responsible if the line caused errors,
and sent a man out with a bit error rate tester - all for 110 baud!
I remember when we sold DSD440 floppies, and the DEC salesmen were going
around saying that it could not format floppies when their RX02 could -
although the only thing that the RX02 could do was change the density
bit from single to double!
cheers,
Nigel
On 13/12/2019 21:06, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
On 12/13/19 8:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591
If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday
This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it
will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system
administrators along the way.
Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
On 12/13/19 5:11 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
Must have been targeted at the
home market as I don't
remember ever seeing them in any of the supplies catalogs
I dealt with. And there were numerous white papers
talking about why it was a really bad idea to spin
floppies in both directions.
bill
I never saw any flippies commercially made but
many
companies made punches for flippy 5.25" disks. I always
had to make my own for 8".
They were standard products. Let's see if I can find a period ad...
Well, not an ad, but a precise description:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/3M/3M_Diskette_Reference_Manual_May83.pdf
Page 8, top illustration. 3M added an "R" to the stock number for
"reversible". I have a few in my stash.
6:42 p.m.
Believe it or not, the "flippy" was actually patented in 1974.
US3932895A
...and let's not forget the 3" CF2 diskettes--designed to be flippies
right fron the get-go.
BASF certainly marketed 5.25" flippies:
https://cdn.instructables.com/FWP/3D0Z/GXL5XZ3U/FWP3D0ZGXL5XZ3U.LARGE.jpg
--Chuck
16 Dec
16 Dec
9:02 a.m.
On 12/13/19 8:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Believe it or not, the "flippy" was actually
patented in 1974.
US3932895A
...and let's not forget the 3" CF2 diskettes--designed to be flippies
right fron the get-go.
BASF certainly marketed 5.25" flippies:
https://cdn.instructables.com/FWP/3D0Z/GXL5XZ3U/FWP3D0ZGXL5XZ3U.LARGE.jpg
I have two Aerocomp flippy drives. They have two index sensors and
two write protect sensors so the disk doesn't need to be punched. They
were in external cases with a system I bought and when I opened them for
inspection before use I noticed the extra wires and sensors.
--
Eric Dittman
9:54 a.m.
On 12/16/19 9:02 AM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:
I have two Aerocomp flippy drives.? They have two index sensors and
two write protect sensors so the disk doesn't need to be punched.? They
were in external cases with a system I bought and when I opened them for
inspection before use I noticed the extra wires and sensors.
Probably few folks remember what a struggle it was to develop a
double-sided floppy drive. It's not just a matter of two identical
heads, one on each surface...
--Chuck
10:23 a.m.
On 12/16/19 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 12/16/19 9:02 AM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:
The system came with a bunch of disks. I imaged them as single-sided
40-track disks when I first got the system as that's what was normal
for the system and when I looked at the images in an emulator they
looked good. After I realized the drive were flippy drives I then had
to go through the disks again with the flippy drive to make sure there
wasn't anything on the other side (there wasn't).
--
Eric Dittman
I have two Aerocomp flippy drives.? They have two index sensors and
two write protect sensors so the disk doesn't need to be punched.? They
were in external cases with a system I bought and when I opened them for
inspection before use I noticed the extra wires and sensors.
Probably few folks remember what a struggle it was to develop a
double-sided floppy drive. It's not just a matter of two identical
heads, one on each surface...
13 Dec
13 Dec
5:06 p.m.
On 12/13/19 3:52 PM, David Barto via cctalk wrote:
Those would have fit a Terak system for UCSD Pascal.
I?ve still got a few stuffed in a closet.
David
They would fit a lot of systems. Need a much closer view
of the labels to try and determine what they actually go]
to.
bill
On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
anyone know what system these floppies are for?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-33-8-034-Floppy-Disks-/184071352445
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