25 Nov
2014
25 Nov
'14
2:10 a.m.
On 24 November 2014 at 22:40, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
I understand that it will be very expensive to change
such a "naturally
grown" infrastructure and this is that cause that I wrote that the US
should have changed this long before nowi, where it is really to late to do
that.
[upgrading (the US) infrastructure]
But I'm wondering about Japan. As was mentioned by someone else
earlier, their's an example of how it shouldn't be done.
However, as part of that they already have a mix (so they're kind of
used to that) of 50Hz and 60Hz depending on where you live.. and they
use US (or as close as doesn't matter) plugs. At 100V. The whole
system is quite frustrating, and scary to look at as well.
Rickety-rackety. Reminds me of underdimensioned old 6V car wiring,
with much of the same problems (dimming, heat..).
So what I was thinking is that it should, in principle, be possible
for Japan to introduce 230V in new areas (and new areas are built
constantly), with European plugs not only to make it safer but also to
clearly make the distinction. That's something that I believe could
work in Japan, people tend to pay attention. I'm not so sure it would
work anywhere else. That's something I would like to see. Not only
because of my old linear transformer computer gear.. or the
impossibility to use my favourite bread machine (doesn't come with an
100V AC motor). 100V isn't particularly energy efficient when it comes
to distribution, and Japan needs to become much, much more energy
efficient.
Here in germany 1 phase power lines simply don't
exist. The entire
infrastructure is build with 3 phases and the phase balancing is made on
every distribution paneel in every house. This is why it isn't a big
problem to get a 3 phase outlet installed somewhere you need it.
Most cables are in the ground, but on the other end of my village here
(1km distance to the next city) there are some overhead lines with at least
two transformers on masts that distribute 3x400V to groups of houses.
[3phase]
Same in Norway (I'm traveling between Norway and Japan so experience
both). Or at least in my town. The whole electricity infrastructure
was reworked completely for all of the town some years ago. Everything
moved from poles to sub-ground cabling, and 400V 3phase to every
house, and taken from there. New houses and old ones are done a bit
differently internally though.
25 Nov
25 Nov
12:17 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 3:10 AM, Tor Arntsen <kspt.tor at gmail.com> wrote:
So what I was thinking is that it should, in
principle, be possible
for Japan to introduce 230V in new areas (and new areas are built
constantly),
That seems sensible.
with European plugs not only to make it safer but also
to
clearly make the distinction.
Personally I prefer the British Type G (BS 1363) sockets
and plugs, but I'm told that a lot of people dislike them.
On the other hand, distributing three-phase to residences, while great
for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive
overkill for normal homes.
12:49 p.m.
On 11/25/2014 12:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On the other hand, distributing three-phase to
residences, while great
for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive
overkill for normal homes.
And expensive. Copper isn't cheap and a 3-phase distribution
transformer costs considerably more than a single-phase one--and
provides very little advantage.
I'll submit that if your goal is phase-to-phase balancing, distributing
single-phase to individual residences and then shifting the residences
to one phase or the other is probably better in that respect. In
Germany, ordinary wall receptacles are single-phase, so depending on the
homeowner to phase-balance his load is probably not the best policy. On
the other hand, doing the same for multi-residence (i.e. apartment
blocks) does make sense.
The homes on my loop (each has its own single-phase stepdown
transformer, but the loop itself is fed by 3-phase HV) are, every few
years, rebalanced. Each residence has a large green distribution box
where the property line meets the street. All three HV lines come into
each box--re-balancing is just a matter of of swapping connections in
the box. Takes but a few minutes.
This may not be typical for the US, but my utility is a rural electric
co-op, so there's less emphasis on profits and more on member benefits.
--Chuck
11:06 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 11/25/2014 12:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Maybe that's the case where you live, but nor here b'cause of production
volumes.
Where is the advantage of two thicker wires fingle phase against four
smaller ones? If you are happy with that was NA suppliers give to you
congatulations, but all others that know better must not be happy with
that.
On the other hand, distributing three-phase to
residences, while great
for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive
overkill for normal homes.
And expensive. Copper isn't cheap and a 3-phase distribution
transformer costs considerably more than a single-phase one--and
provides very little advantage.
I'll submit that if your goal is phase-to-phase balancing, distributing
single-phase to individual residences and then shifting the residences
to one phase or the other is probably better in that respect. In
Germany, ordinary wall receptacles are single-phase, so depending on the
homeowner to phase-balance his load is probably not the best policy. On
the other hand, doing the same for multi-residence (i.e. apartment
blocks) does make sense.
As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that all people in
Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of Idiots?
I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too?
The homes on my loop (each has its own single-phase stepdown
transformer, but the loop itself is fed by 3-phase HV) are, every few
years, rebalanced. Each residence has a large green distribution box
where the property line meets the street. All three HV lines come into
each box--re-balancing is just a matter of of swapping connections in
the box. Takes but a few minutes.
Nobody needs this...
All Power companies are doing the same here so nothing is "expensive", it
is the standard. And don#t tell me that the NA Power distribution with
small voltage single phase is economical in sight of the usage of copper...
This may not be typical for the US, but my utility is a rural electric
co-op, so there's less emphasis on profits and more on member benefits.
--Chuck
Chuck you don't know better, so it is ok for you. That's all.
BTW: since someone talked about step donw trannies for power tools..
that's unkown here and not needed, with some exeptions:
There are step down isolated transformers with < 42V for special sensitive
environments. That is called "Schutzkleinspannung" or protective small
voltage. That is used where people can get in touch with the conductors
or in wet envirnonments...seldom used.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
26 Nov
26 Nov
10:47 a.m.
On 11/25/2014 11:06 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Chuck you don't know better, so it is ok for you.
That's all.
Holm, I do bristle a bit at that one. I've worked with industrial
distribution as well as residential--there is a huge difference. In the
industrial world, motors dominate the workload--even in a high-tech
office building, HVAC accounts for a very large portion of the
electrical load. In residential applications, the big consumption is
from lighting and heating--although I wonder sometimes
about the
TV-crazy families.
Cooking doesn't account for much in most households. I have an
induction cooktop installed, which is vastly more efficient that
electrical resistance heating--and more controllable. I asked my local
utility if there was an energy credit available for that--the response
was that cooking accounts for perhaps 2% of the average household energy
budget, the choice of one over the other yields very little difference
in the overall picture. So trotting out the cooker as the prime
example of efficient 3-phase use isn't really relevant.
To me, your argument is a matter of small degree. How many household
appliances do you own that are multiphase? So we do the single-phase
breakout before the final distribution transformer, Germany does it after.
My vacuum cleaner isn't 3-phase and neither is yours. Why aren't you
distributing 120 Hz (or any other frequency)--transformers would be
smaller, you know. Both our transmission systems are 3-phase.
As far as distribution voltages go, there's nothing to stop a homeowner
from wiring all of his receptacles for 240V (it
conforms to the National
Electrical Code); the problem is that there would be
little he could do
with it, as most of our small appliances are constructed for 120V (or
thereabouts). But he can purchase 240V light bulbs, if that is my
choice--it will cost more, as that's not the dominant standard here.
In fact, many, if not most small electronics here (TV, computers, etc.)
use SMPSUs, so distribution voltage matters not a whit as far as they're
concerned.
To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument.
--Chuck
11:31 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 11/25/2014 11:06 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Hmm..see Christians Mailing.
Ido have electrical Heaters here, in german called "Nachtspeicher?fen",
that means they get heated up in the night at lower electricals costs
(between 10pm and 6am) and buffer the head in some stones, over the day
a fan is working from a thermostate and is heating the rooms.
The oven in my living room has 4.2KW and another heater in the oven is
additionally able to heat with 2.2KW (this one is able to heat over the day
hours).
There are 5 other such ovens in my appartement with smaller power figures
(3KW It think).
Almost impossible in the US.
Chuck you don't know better, so it is ok for
you. That's all.
Holm, I do bristle a bit at that one. I've worked with industrial
distribution as well as residential--there is a huge difference. In the
industrial world, motors dominate the workload--even in a high-tech
office building, HVAC accounts for a very large portion of the
electrical load. In residential applications, the big consumption is
from lighting and heating--although I wonder sometimes about the
TV-crazy families.
Cooking doesn't account for much in most households. I have an
induction cooktop installed, which is vastly more efficient that
electrical resistance heating--and more controllable. I asked my local
utility if there was an energy credit available for that--the response
was that cooking accounts for perhaps 2% of the average household energy
budget, the choice of one over the other yields very little difference
in the overall picture. So trotting out the cooker as the prime
example of efficient 3-phase use isn't really relevant.
To me, your argument is a matter of small degree. How many household
appliances do you own that are multiphase? So we do the single-phase
breakout before the final distribution transformer, Germany does it after.
My vacuum cleaner isn't 3-phase and neither is yours.
You've not reading all my mails, don't you?
I already wrote that I actually have a big industry grade vacuum cleaner
with an 1.5 KW 3phase ansynchron motor and a zyklone.
Why aren't you
distributing 120 Hz (or any other frequency)--transformers would be
smaller, you know. Both our transmission systems are 3-phase.
Oh, besides of my tube amps most devices I have have transformers for more
then 20Khz...
As far as distribution voltages go, there's nothing to stop a homeowner
from wiring all of his receptacles for 240V (it conforms to the National
Electrical Code); the problem is that there would be little he could do
with it, as most of our small appliances are constructed for 120V (or
thereabouts). But he can purchase 240V light bulbs, if that is my
choice--it will cost more, as that's not the dominant standard here.
Again, I wrote the US schould have changed this long before now, then now
it is simply to late A to change that w/o gigantic costs.
That doesn't mean that I think that the US has a nice power distribution
network, from my sight (and not only my sight) this is stone age and there
is nothing that you could do to change that. :-)
In fact, many, if not most small electronics here (TV, computers, etc.)
use SMPSUs, so distribution voltage matters not a whit as far as they're
concerned.
That's the same here and no criteria that really matters.
The power losses on conductor resistances are that what costs money..
To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument.
--Chuck
Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu?
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
11:46 a.m.
On Nov 26, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at
freibergnet.de> wrote:
Part I of the story from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift (1726).
Two countries were at war (Lilliput & Blefuscu) over which end of the egg to open (big
vs little). The Lilliputians were "little-endian" while the Blefuscians were
"big-endian". And that my friends is the first instance of the difference
between big-endian and little endian! The terms long pre-dated modern digital computers.
TTFN - Guy
To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument.
--Chuck
Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu?
12:04 p.m.
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Thanks, I never read that book.. only saw some children-comic-films
about Gulliver's travels. Never realized that egg problem :-)
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On Nov 26, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm
at freibergnet.de> wrote:
Part I of the story from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift (1726).
Two countries were at war (Lilliput & Blefuscu) over which end of the egg to open
(big vs little). The Lilliputians were "little-endian" while the Blefuscians
were "big-endian". And that my friends is the first instance of the difference
between big-endian and little endian! The terms long pre-dated modern digital computers.
TTFN - Guy
To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument.
--Chuck
Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu?
1:02 p.m.
On Nov 26, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at
freibergnet.de> wrote:
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Thanks, I never read that book.. only saw some children-comic-films
about Gulliver's travels. Never realized that egg problem :-)
Most folks think of it as a children's story. It was (among other things)
a satirical view of European governments at the time.
TTFN - Guy
On Nov 26, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm
at freibergnet.de> wrote:
Part I of the story from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift (1726).
Two countries were at war (Lilliput & Blefuscu) over which end of the egg to open
(big vs little). The Lilliputians were "little-endian" while the Blefuscians
were "big-endian". And that my friends is the first instance of the difference
between big-endian and little endian! The terms long pre-dated modern digital computers.
TTFN - Guy
To me, it seems that this is a Lilliput-versus-Blefuscu argument.
--Chuck
Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu?
2:13 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Thanks, I never read that book.. only saw some
children-comic-films
about Gulliver's travels. Never realized that egg problem :-)
Read it!
Although now consigned entirely to children's tales, it was actually
biting social commentary. Some bits of it rival Douglas Adams.
One trip made him larger than his surroundings, one trip made him small
(although when he was picked up at sea afterwards, the sailors had not
noticed anything unusual about the giant bird that had carried him away),
one trip dealt with guvmint, one with academia, and finally the
horse/human reversal.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:13 p.m.
On 11/26/2014 02:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2014, Holm Tiffe wrote:
I figure if I had to slog my way through with "Die Leiden des jungen
Werthers". Holm can work through Gulliver--it's a bit more cheerful.
--Chuck
Thanks, I never read that book.. only saw some
children-comic-films
about Gulliver's travels. Never realized that egg problem :-)
Read it!
1:04 p.m.
On 11/26/2014 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Ido have electrical Heaters here, in german called
"Nachtspeicher?fen",
that means they get heated up in the night at lower electricals costs
(between 10pm and 6am) and buffer the head in some stones, over the day
a fan is working from a thermostate and is heating the rooms.
The oven in my living room has 4.2KW and another heater in the oven is
additionally able to heat with 2.2KW (this one is able to heat over the day
hours).
Electrical resistive heating for household heading in the US is being
discouraged. There are government incentives to convert to much more
efficient heat pump technology--with the side benefit of air
conditioning in the summer. I do have "emergency" resistive heating
elements in my air handler--they're connected to two 40A/240V circuits.
Gas is at least as popular in the US for heat and cooking. Oil for
heating is also used. Coal has been obsolete for some years. I do
supplement my heating with wood--but then, I'm located in a rural area
where trees grow like fleas on a dog.
Almost impossible in the US.
See above--such things are usually permanently connected.
You've not reading all my mails, don't you?
I already wrote that I actually have a big industry grade vacuum cleaner
with an 1.5 KW 3phase ansynchron motor and a zyklone.
Yes, but that's atypical. You're not going to find that in the
appliance department of your local Karstadt, are you?
Oh, besides of my tube amps most devices I have have
transformers for more
then 20Khz...
I fail to see the relevance to AC distribution. I also have audio
transformers and tube gear.
Again, I wrote the US schould have changed this long
before now, then now
it is simply to late A to change that w/o gigantic costs.
That doesn't mean that I think that the US has a nice power distribution
network, from my sight (and not only my sight) this is stone age and there
is nothing that you could do to change that. :-)
Again, I fail to see your point. 240V 200A single-phase residential
distribution gets the power were it's needed. My neighbor has 240V/400A
single-phase because he has a larger house. 48 or 96KVA. Do you get
more in your house?
Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu?
Surely, you're familiar with the Jonathan Swift novel "Gullilver's
Travels"? The book, not the children's cartoon series, is in reality a
biting social satire. Lilliput and Blefuscu were two kingdoms at war
over which end of an egg was best to open; i.e., fighting over nothing.
--Chuck
10:26 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
The Ovens are permanently connected too, but they are connected to the
standard house distribution point.
No Karstadt here. This is a industrial device like a KL10 too, but nobody
prevents me to power that thing properly und use it, even privately.
The entire infrastructure to do that already exists.
This diskussion here is about problems that US residents have to connect
their gear to a 3 phase distribution. Those problems don't exist here,
nevertheless you want to tell me that the US or NA power distribution
system is the better one..
Sorry, that was your point.
3x 230V 63A is standard. This is approx. the same level as your 200A
Rating above but more flexible. If you want more you have to tell that to
the power company, not impossible. (in my neightborhood is an aluminum cast
company that has electrical heated ovens)
Ok, I've got the hint and I'll try to read that some time.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On 11/26/2014 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
They are discouraged here too but in discussion lately as drain for
Power peaks from solar/wind power plants, since they have some buffer
capabilities.
The ovens are 40 years old and are not mine, I'm living here for rent.
Ido have electrical Heaters here, in german called
"Nachtspeicher?fen",
that means they get heated up in the night at lower electricals costs
(between 10pm and 6am) and buffer the head in some stones, over the day
a fan is working from a thermostate and is heating the rooms.
The oven in my living room has 4.2KW and another heater in the oven is
additionally able to heat with 2.2KW (this one is able to heat over the day
hours).
Electrical resistive heating for household heading in the US is being
discouraged. There are government incentives to convert to much more
efficient heat pump technology--with the side benefit of air
conditioning in the summer. I do have "emergency" resistive heating
elements in my air handler--they're connected to two 40A/240V circuits.
Gas is at least as popular in the US for heat and cooking. Oil for
heating is also used. Coal has been obsolete for some years. I do
supplement my heating with wood--but then, I'm located in a rural area
where trees grow like fleas on a dog.
No Gas here, but other Parts of the house are heated with Oil.
Almost impossible in the US.
See above--such things are usually permanently connected. You've not reading all my mails, don't
you?
I already wrote that I actually have a big industry grade vacuum cleaner
with an 1.5 KW 3phase ansynchron motor and a zyklone.
Yes, but that's atypical. You're not going to find that in the
appliance department of your local Karstadt, are you? Oh, besides of my tube amps most devices I have
have transformers for more
then 20Khz...
I fail to see the relevance to AC distribution. I also have audio
transformers and tube gear. Again, I wrote the US schould have changed this
long before now, then now
it is simply to late A to change that w/o gigantic costs.
That doesn't mean that I think that the US has a nice power distribution
network, from my sight (and not only my sight) this is stone age and there
is nothing that you could do to change that. :-)
Again, I fail to see your point. 240V 200A single-phase residential
distribution gets the power were it's needed. My neighbor has 240V/400A
single-phase because he has a larger house. 48 or 96KVA. Do you get
more in your house? Sorry, who the f.. is Blefuscu?
Surely, you're familiar with the Jonathan Swift novel "Gullilver's
Travels"? The book, not the children's cartoon series, is in reality a
biting social satire. Lilliput and Blefuscu were two kingdoms at war
over which end of an egg was best to open; i.e., fighting over nothing.
--Chuck 
11:13 p.m.
On Nov 26, 2014, at 3:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Electrical resistive heating for household heading in
the US is being discouraged. There are government incentives to convert to much more
efficient heat pump technology--with the side benefit of air conditioning in the summer.
I do have "emergency" resistive heating elements in my air handler--they're
connected to two 40A/240V circuits.
Yeah, and heat pumps work great for heat until there is no heat in the outside air from
which to extract. With my current (albeit aging) system, that temperature is around 28F,
then it's on to the heat strips.
Surely, you're familiar with the Jonathan Swift
novel "Gullilver's Travels"? The book, not the children's cartoon
series, is in reality a biting social satire. Lilliput and Blefuscu were two kingdoms at
war over which end of an egg was best to open; i.e., fighting over nothing.
I have to admit that I always find this battle somewhat amusing. I am sure that there are
a variety of reasons why one method is better than the other and vice versa. Nonetheless I
am hard-pressed to think of a single time where I was unable to use some electrically
powered device for as long as I can remember. Therefore I tend to think the system works
just fine and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I wouldn't relish the idea of
paying to rip out my current electrical service to replace with a 3-phase system. I'm
quite happy living with it the way it is and paying the paltry $0.09/kWh we pay. I'm
sure the massive cost to convert the system would negatively impact the rates we pay as
well.
Now, I have run across some rather stupid installs regardless of the NEC both in my
current house and my last that I'm sure would be an issue whether we're talking
the North American, German, UK, etc. systems. In my experience people don't understand
electrical wiring very well. Anyway, In the last house, there was a 20A 120V outlet in the
garage that I hooked a brand-new air compressor up to that I purchased from Lowes. The
compressor ran just fine for about a minute, and then the motor began to arc and smoke. I
thought, "great, this thing's defective" and carted it back to the store and
they swapped it for a new one. I got it home and started to plug it in and decided I
should be on the safe side and check the outlet. It was wired 240V instead of 120V despite
having a 120V receptacle! In addition to that, in one room there was a ceiling fan
attached to the peak of a vaulted ceiling... not attached to a ceiling box, which is of
course a no-no as well.
I have also run across some crazy wiring in our current house which was built in 1986.
When we purchased the home, we noticed that in both of the front two upstairs bedrooms the
light switches wouldn't operate the lights in the room. It was obvious that the old
home owner was unhappy with the location of the ceiling fixture (I can't blame them)
and so they relocated the fixture a couple feet to the side of the old box. The reason for
this anomaly was that when the builder positioned the light in the room, they centered it
over the longest span of the room, including the dormer which offset it for the main part
of the room. Looked odd. Anyway, I finally got around to investigating this light switch
issue and discovered in the master bedroom a wire was run from the old box to the new
location, (again without a ceiling box <sigh>), that part makes sense. In the other
bedroom, the light was offset by about the same distance as the master, so they again
moved the fixture (NO CEILING BOX!!!!), but instead of wiring to the old box, they ran a
wire from the new fixture location to the old ceiling box in the master bedroom... about
15' of unnecessary wire! The old ceiling box was left as is in the second bedroom,
which explains why that light switch did nothing. Since the second bedroom was tapping off
of the master's light power feed, we can't have both rooms being controlled by the
same switch, can we? They bypassed the switch on the wall altogether. No wires were
connected to the switch at all, they simply wire nutted the hots together there and left
the dead switch in place. I have no idea if this was done by a licensed electrician or
not, who knows... but it did
There's a couple of other wacky things I've found, easily corrected but you get
the idea.
11:42 p.m.
On 11/26/2014 11:13 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
Yeah, and heat pumps work great for heat until there
is no heat in
the outside air from which to extract. With my current (albeit aging)
system, that temperature is around 28F, then it's on to the heat
strips.
Some of the neighbors have buried evaporator lines around their yard
(so-called "geothermal" I've seen wells drilled for the same use. VERY
expensive, but very efficient, even with energy tax credits. It really
doesn't make much sense here on the "wet" side of the Cascades; we get
perhaps a couple days of snow each winter--and it doesn't stick around.
One thing that was promoted for a time was the "heat pump" water heater
(e.g. GE Geospring). What with promotional pricing and energy credits,
you could have one installed for free. Terrible reliability from what I
can tell from customer reviews.
If you want to see a very different take on electrical distribution,
watch "Powerless" on the PBS series "Independent Lens". Makes you
appreciate even the worst US rat's nest wiring:
http://video.pbs.org/program/independent-lens/
(Good through Dec. 3)
--Chuck
27 Nov
27 Nov
6:17 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
I have an induction cooktop installed, which is vastly
more efficient
that electrical resistance heating--and more controllable.
(But it has its own downsides, like not working with glass pans - I
have a glass skillet....)
I asked my local utility if there was an energy credit
available for
that--the response was that cooking accounts for perhaps 2% of the
average household energy budget, [...]
Interesting! What _does_ account for most of the draw? Are you in an
area where electric is common as the energy source for routine heat?
Thinking about my own experience, I'm fairly confident the ranking goes
heating (if electrical), computers, cooking, and then everything else
is down in the noise - and that's for me personally; most people don't
have nearly the computer load I do.
In fact, many, if not most small electronics here (TV,
computers,
etc.) use SMPSUs, so distribution voltage matters not a whit as far
as they're concerned.
I've wondered about that. SMPSUs draw no current most of the cycle,
drawing heavily on the peaks, without the smoothing effect of the mains
transformer present in (most) non-switching supplies. This is almost
nothing like most historical load, which is mostly either resistive or
inductive. I'm curious whether it has a significant effect on the
grid; do you happen to know?
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
11 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 11/27/2014 06:17 AM, Mouse wrote:
(But it has its own downsides, like not working with
glass pans - I
have a glass skillet....)
It's more serious than that. The cooking utensil has to be
ferromagnetic. So, my substantial investment in 18/10 stainless steel
cookware is out; however, cheap 18/0 stainless works fine. My Le
Creuset porcelain-over-cast iron are fine as are my All-Clad stainless.
I have a considerable inventory of older borosilicate Pyrex (not the
cheap soda-lime that passes for Pyrex nowadays) as well as pieces of
Corning glasswre that are more than 40 years old. Those get relegated
to ovenware and storage. Fortunately, better makers of cookware are now
starting to laminate a steel insert into pot bottoms. Given the low
thermal conductivity of glass, I've wondered if cooktop use can be
justified But induction's come a long way since Princess Margaret
started using it.
Interesting! What _does_ account for most of the
draw? Are you in an
area where electric is common as the energy source for routine heat?
Thinking about my own experience, I'm fairly confident the ranking goes
heating (if electrical), computers, cooking, and then everything else
is down in the noise - and that's for me personally; most people don't
have nearly the computer load I do.
Other than living space heating, I understand that a water heater
accounts for a substantial part of an all-electric home's energy
consumption. Lighting also used to be high on the list, but since CFL
adoption has picked up, I don't think that it accounts for the load that
it once did. Eventually, LEDs can be expected to supplant CFLs.
I've wondered about that. SMPSUs draw no current
most of the cycle,
drawing heavily on the peaks, without the smoothing effect of the mains
transformer present in (most) non-switching supplies. This is almost
nothing like most historical load, which is mostly either resistive or
inductive. I'm curious whether it has a significant effect on the
grid; do you happen to know?
"Dirty" harmonic-laden current from SMPSUs is a problem. But that
problem also arises from the lowly CFL. Right now, the problem is being
mostly ignored. I read an interesting paper that suggests that HVDC
for large server farms may be the best answer in that case.
--Chuck
11:39 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
Hi Chuck,
The lack of heating in your antimagnetic stainless or copper cookware isn't
due to a lack of ferromagnetic content - it's a different situation
entirely. The issue stems from the electrical properties of the bulk
material - in essence, those pots are +too good+ of a conductor at the
frequencies in use. The currents flow in a deep, thick layer and encounter
trivial resistance. It's this lack of resistance that's responsible for the
lack of heat production .
I'm sure you've seen the well-known 'magnet down the copper pipe'
demonstration, which shows clearly that eddy currents develop just fine in
copper - which certainly isn't in the ferromagnetic series. As for glass or
ceramic, they're electrical insulators, so there's little to zero current
flow at all, and again, no heat production.
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 11/27/2014 06:17 AM, Mouse wrote:
(But it has its own downsides, like not working with glass pans - I
have a glass skillet....)
It's more serious than that. The cooking utensil has to be
ferromagnetic. So, my substantial investment in 18/10 stainless steel
cookware is out; however, cheap 18/0 stainless works fine. My Le Creuset
porcelain-over-cast iron are fine as are my All-Clad stainless.
I have a considerable inventory of older borosilicate Pyrex (not the cheap
soda-lime that passes for Pyrex nowadays) as well as pieces of Corning
glasswre that are more than 40 years old. Those get relegated to ovenware
and storage. Fortunately, better makers of cookware are now starting to
laminate a steel insert into pot bottoms. Given the low thermal
conductivity of glass, I've wondered if cooktop use can be justified But
induction's come a long way since Princess Margaret started using it.
Interesting! What _does_ account for most of the draw? Are you in an
area where electric is common as the energy
source for routine heat?
Thinking about my own experience, I'm fairly confident the ranking goes
heating (if electrical), computers, cooking, and then everything else
is down in the noise - and that's for me personally; most people don't
have nearly the computer load I do.
Other than living space heating, I understand that a water heater accounts
for a substantial part of an all-electric home's energy consumption.
Lighting also used to be high on the list, but since CFL adoption has
picked up, I don't think that it accounts for the load that it once did.
Eventually, LEDs can be expected to supplant CFLs.
I've wondered about that. SMPSUs draw no current most of the cycle,
drawing heavily on the peaks, without the
smoothing effect of the mains
transformer present in (most) non-switching supplies. This is almost
nothing like most historical load, which is mostly either resistive or
inductive. I'm curious whether it has a significant effect on the
grid; do you happen to know?
"Dirty" harmonic-laden current from SMPSUs is a problem. But that problem
also arises from the lowly CFL. Right now, the problem is being mostly
ignored. I read an interesting paper that suggests that HVDC for large
server farms may be the best answer in that case.
--Chuck
12:11 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 11/27/2014 11:39 AM, drlegendre . wrote:
Hi Chuck,
The lack of heating in your antimagnetic stainless or copper cookware isn't
due to a lack of ferromagnetic content - it's a different situation
entirely. The issue stems from the electrical properties of the bulk
material - in essence, those pots are +too good+ of a conductor at the
frequencies in use. The currents flow in a deep, thick layer and encounter
trivial resistance. It's this lack of resistance that's responsible for the
lack of heat production .
I'm sure you've seen the well-known 'magnet down the copper pipe'
demonstration, which shows clearly that eddy currents develop just fine in
copper - which certainly isn't in the ferromagnetic series. As for glass or
ceramic, they're electrical insulators, so there's little to zero current
flow at all, and again, no heat production.
This goes counter to my experience. Any utensil that passes the "magnet
test" will work; any that don't, don't.
I've never found an exception to this.
--Chuck
9:51 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
Hey Chuck,
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
This goes counter to my experience. Any utensil that passes the "magnet
test" will work; any that don't, don't.
I've never found an exception to this.
In retrospect, my comments may have been a bit pedantic - as you have
found, the 'magnet test' is more than likely an effective method for
selecting compatible cookware.
The point of my post, was that it's not actually the presence or lack of
ferromagnetic characteristics which are responsible for the compatibility
or incompatibility of the given cookware. Let me see if I can explain this
without further muddying the waters:
I think we all understand that induction heating is the result of eddy
current propagation within the cookware - this is one of the reasons that
it's more efficient than traditional contact-coupled resistive elements
operated off AC mains power. But like any _resistive_ heating element, the
cookware must offer sufficient _resistance_ to the impressed currents to
produce any heating effects - that's just I^2*R.
In the case of most copper, antimagnetic stainless or aluminum vessels, the
eddy currents actually propagate a bit too well - that is, the effective
resistance of the imposed current path is too low for any useful ohmic
heating to take place. In other words, the currents flow, but the voltage
drops are inconsequential.
Or that's how I understand it. As ever, I await my ongoing education.. ;-)
10:53 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 11/27/2014 09:51 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
In the case of most copper, antimagnetic stainless or
aluminum vessels, the
eddy currents actually propagate a bit too well - that is, the effective
resistance of the imposed current path is too low for any useful ohmic
heating to take place. In other words, the currents flow, but the voltage
drops are inconsequential.
Well, my view is that the substance being heated has to have a
sufficiently high relative permeability to work--and in a way, it's tied
into your resistive explanation. There isn't a lot of electrical
difference with 18 percent chromium stainless steels, but the 10 percent
nickel is a game killer in 18/10 stainless.
I've got a sheet of pure nickel, which is ferromagnetic. I should give
it a try on my cooker and report back.
A high-permeability ferromagnetic substance will tend to support
formation of a magnetic field at fairly shallow depths in the material,
and thus induction of a current and subsequent heating.
Were this a purely resistive effect, a sheet of very thin copper foil or
a graphite disk would also be great candidates for induction heating,
which (I can verify this by experimentation) they aren't. isn't. Of
course, the frequency has an effect as well.
I think of it as a transformer with a shorted winding. At induction
cooker frequencies, the coupling will be stronger if a ferromagnetic
core is used.
Maybe we're arguing two sides of the same coin?
--Chuck
28 Nov
28 Nov
11:48 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
Hi Chuck,
On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:53 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Were this a purely resistive effect, a sheet of very thin copper foil or a
graphite disk would also be great candidates for induction heating, which
(I can verify this by experimentation) they aren't. isn't. Of course, the
frequency has an effect as well.
It's interesting that copper foil won't heat up, because per my
understanding aluminum foil certainly will - don't the manufacturers warn
against using it?
So we have a situation wherein aluminum pots aren't at all suitable for
cooking, but yet foils of the same (well, a very similar) metal will burn
right through. To me this means that it should be possible to design a
purely aluminum, non-magnetic vessel of some particular shape and thickness
that does more-or-less work on an induction cooker.
And I think this illustrates my point that ferromagnetic quality is more of
an ancillary issue, rather than a primary requirement.
12:11 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 11/28/2014 11:48 AM, drlegendre . wrote:
So we have a situation wherein aluminum pots
aren't at all suitable for
cooking, but yet foils of the same (well, a very similar) metal will burn
right through. To me this means that it should be possible to design a
purely aluminum, non-magnetic vessel of some particular shape and thickness
that does more-or-less work on an induction cooker.
Okay, I grabbed some aluminum foil from yesterday's turkey roast (FWIW,
the "dry brining with herbs under the skin" works wonderfully).
Interesting effect--the foil must be in close proximity to the coils to
heat up--and it does indeed do that very quickly. Move it an 1/8" away
and the effect is negligible. What's interesting is to see the foil
"jump" when power is applied.
So it seems that iron does play a part in providing a magnetic path.
Carrying this on further, I have some 18/10 pots with a slab of aluminum
(as a heat spreader) laminated into the bottoms. Nada, zip. I also
have an 18/10 double boiler whose bottom is a hunk of copper bonded to
the steel. Again, nothing.
Hmmm, I smell some more experiments. I have several thicknesses of
brass sheet (used as shim stock) down to about 5 mills. It will be
interesting to see if the 5 mill is thin enough to produce a heating
effect--and if backing by a thicker metal interferes with the effect.
-Chuck
1:31 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
What's interesting is to see the foil "jump" when power is applied.
Hmm.. that +is+ kind of interesting. Sounds like the foil is motoring,
behaving like an armature until the turn-on current in the cooktop settles.
Hmmm, I smell some more experiments.
Do they smell like turkey drippings? ;-)
29 Nov
29 Nov
7:01 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 28 Nov 2014, at 12:11, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Okay, I grabbed some aluminum foil from
yesterday's turkey roast (FWIW, the "dry brining with herbs under the skin"
works wonderfully). Interesting effect--the foil must be in close proximity to the coils
to heat up--and it does indeed do that very quickly. Move it an 1/8" away and the
effect is negligible. What's interesting is to see the foil "jump" when
power is applied.
Interesting. Attempting to reproduce on the inductive cooktop I have here resulted in an
immediate fault and shutdown. Apparently my unit is too smart to indulge experimentation
with metals that fail the magnet test. Quell bummer!
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"
7:20 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
Hi Chris,
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Christian Kennedy <chris at mainecoon.com>
wrote:
Interesting. Attempting to reproduce on the inductive cooktop I have here
resulted in an immediate fault and shutdown. Apparently my unit is too
smart to indulge experimentation with metals that fail the magnet test.
Quell bummer!
Any sense of why it shut-down? One might immediately assume it's due to an
over-current situation, but it would be worth knowing exactly what
happened, for sure.
Did you try reducing the coupling, by placing a thin sheet of glass between
the cooktop and the alum. foil?
7:41 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 29 Nov 2014, at 19:20, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
Any sense of why it shut-down? One might immediately
assume it's due to an
over-current situation, but it would be worth knowing exactly what
happened, for sure.
I suspect it?s just the opposite; the fault is the same as if one removed a ferrous pot
from the cooktop for more than a handful of seconds while running; from what I?ve observed
it looks like it decides that there?s *insufficient* current being drawn, throws the fault
display and shuts down the coil in question.
Did you try reducing the coupling, by placing a thin
sheet of glass between
the cooktop and the alum. foil?
I did with no change in the results but it did lead to the obvious follow-on; It turns out
that for a 10? Al-Clad pan I can distance it from the surface by about 8mm before it
decides to tell me to sod off.
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"
8:14 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
@Chris,
That's what I was wondering - whether it was as sensitive to an
open-circuit as to an excessively short one.
Do you know what the open-circuit concerns are? Is it one of those supplies
that just can't tolerate being unloaded?
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:41 PM, Christian Kennedy <chris at mainecoon.com>
wrote:
On 29 Nov 2014, at 19:20, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
Any sense of why it shut-down? One might
immediately assume it's due to
an
over-current situation, but it would be worth
knowing exactly what
happened, for sure.
I suspect it?s just the opposite; the fault is the same as if one removed
a ferrous pot from the cooktop for more than a handful of seconds while
running; from what I?ve observed it looks like it decides that there?s
*insufficient* current being drawn, throws the fault display and shuts down
the coil in question.
Did you try reducing the coupling, by placing a
thin sheet of glass
between
the cooktop and the alum. foil?
I did with no change in the results but it did lead to the obvious
follow-on; It turns out that for a 10? Al-Clad pan I can distance it from
the surface by about 8mm before it decides to tell me to sod off.
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"
30 Nov
30 Nov
9:54 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 29 Nov 2014, at 20:14, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
That's what I was wondering - whether it was as
sensitive to an
open-circuit as to an excessively short one.
Do you know what the open-circuit concerns are? Is it one of those supplies
that just can't tolerate being unloaded?
My suspicion is that this is actually in the same category as the control lock that?s
supposed to deter children; being the US this smells like someone came up with a novel
product liability theory and someone decide to drop a few extra lines of code in order to
appease the corporate legal types.
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"
2:24 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 11/30/2014 11:54 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote:
My suspicion is that this is actually in the same
category
as the control lock that?s supposed to deter children;
being the US this smells like someone came up with a novel
product liability theory and someone decide to drop a few
extra lines of code in order to appease the corporate
legal types.
Yes, and if left to reach completion, they will have you
buying all your pots
and pans with serial numbers that match the stove. All
others will be
refused. Oh, maybe that is only for printer cartridges.
Jon
6:06 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
No, this is actually a very good idea, as far as safety features go. And if
I'd have only thought for a moment, it would have been obvious..
First issue, it's not always totally obvious when an induction hob is
powered up - no visible flame, glowing coil, noise, heat, smell etc. If the
hob were left powered with no load, it would be easy for a (cat, child,
etc) to accidentally knock something onto the surface that could get very
hot - or flame up, like a sheet of aluminum foil.
Or one of those metallized paper fast-food wrappers.. that would make a
nice little fire while the family's out of the house.. or sleeping
upstairs. Then you have the issue that the "burner' sections of a complete
cooktop aren't clearly and mechanically delineated from the "work" area..
oops, corner of the Macbook was WHERE?
A powered but un-used hob is really just a trap waiting to be sprung.
Automatic shutdown is a very wise measure.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
On 11/30/2014 11:54 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote:
My suspicion is that this is actually in the same
category as the control
lock that?s supposed to deter children; being the US this smells like
someone came up with a novel product liability theory and someone decide to
drop a few extra lines of code in order to appease the corporate legal
types.
Yes, and if left to reach completion, they will have you buying all your
pots
and pans with serial numbers that match the stove. All others will be
refused. Oh, maybe that is only for printer cartridges.
Jon
8:50 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 11/30/2014 06:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
A powered but un-used hob is really just a trap
waiting to be sprung.
Automatic shutdown is a very wise measure.
The one I've got is really paranoid. The "unlock" button must be
pressed before a "burner" is powered. It can also be used to lock the
settings as well. If the burner gives up after about 30 seconds of a
"no pan" situation, it powers off--and locks again.
Oddly enough, I really appreciate that. More than once, I've left an
electric "coil" type burner on at a low setting, completely forgetting
about it...
--Chuck
1 Dec
1 Dec
12:21 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 10:50 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 11/30/2014 06:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
A powered but un-used hob is really just a trap waiting to be sprung.
I've seen residential fires start in the most sudden, rapid and unexpected
ways.. anything we can do to keep that sort of thing to a minimum (without
creating undue encumbrance) is a Good Thing.
Don't ask me about the time the cat accidentally knocked a 9V battery into
a trashcan, that also contained some used #0000 steel wool and various
papers. If I hadn't been nearby, it might have taken the house.
Automatic shutdown is a very wise measure.
The one I've got is really paranoid. (...) Oddly enough, I really
appreciate that. 
5:10 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
* Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> [141130 17:24]:
On 11/30/2014 11:54 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote:
But if it saves only one child...
My suspicion is that this is actually in the same
category
as the control lock that?s supposed to deter children;
being the US this smells like someone came up with a novel
product liability theory and someone decide to drop a few
extra lines of code in order to appease the corporate
legal types.
Yes, and if left to reach completion, they will have you
buying all your pots
and pans with serial numbers that match the stove. All
others will be
refused. Oh, maybe that is only for printer cartridges.
Jon
29 Nov
29 Nov
10:06 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 11/29/2014 07:01 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote:
Interesting. Attempting to reproduce on the inductive
cooktop I have
here resulted in an immediate fault and shutdown. Apparently my unit
is too smart to indulge experimentation with metals that fail the
magnet test. Quell bummer!
Probably not enough turkey leavings on it...
--Chuck
30 Nov
30 Nov
9:51 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 29 Nov 2014, at 22:06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Probably not enough turkey leavings on it?
+1 :)
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"
11:04 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 11/30/2014 09:51 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote:
Sometime this week, I think I'm going to experiment and see if the
induction cooker would make a great bulk eraser for floppies and tapes.
--Chuck
11:45 a.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Sometime this week, I think I'm going to
experiment and see if the
induction cooker would make a great bulk eraser for floppies and tapes.
But, don't damage it with Wabash!
12:18 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 11/30/2014 09:51 AM, Christian Kennedy wrote:
Sometime this week, I think I'm going to experiment and see if the
induction cooker would make a great bulk eraser for floppies and tapes.
In the process, you might also stumble upon another method of secure data
destruction.
27 Nov
27 Nov
11:22 p.m.
New subject: Residental electrical load [was Re: Who's rewired their house for this hobby?]
On 2014-11-28 06:51, drlegendre . wrote:
Hey Chuck,
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
That sounds a bit weird, as I would expect the current resistance in
iron should be pretty low as well. Or is it really way higher than in
copper or aluminium?
The magnetic properties seems to be the common factor in my experience
as well. Not sure how they relate to electric resistance...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
This goes counter to my experience. Any utensil that passes the "magnet
test" will work; any that don't, don't.
I've never found an exception to this.
In retrospect, my comments may have been a bit pedantic - as you have
found, the 'magnet test' is more than likely an effective method for
selecting compatible cookware.
The point of my post, was that it's not actually the presence or lack of
ferromagnetic characteristics which are responsible for the compatibility
or incompatibility of the given cookware. Let me see if I can explain this
without further muddying the waters:
I think we all understand that induction heating is the result of eddy
current propagation within the cookware - this is one of the reasons that
it's more efficient than traditional contact-coupled resistive elements
operated off AC mains power. But like any _resistive_ heating element, the
cookware must offer sufficient _resistance_ to the impressed currents to
produce any heating effects - that's just I^2*R.
In the case of most copper, antimagnetic stainless or aluminum vessels, the
eddy currents actually propagate a bit too well - that is, the effective
resistance of the imposed current path is too low for any useful ohmic
heating to take place. In other words, the currents flow, but the voltage
drops are inconsequential.
Or that's how I understand it. As ever, I await my ongoing education.. ;-) 
26 Nov
26 Nov
12:22 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:06 AM
------------
Did Chuck really say that? *All* people?? Idiots???
Honi soit qui mal y pense...
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'll
submit that if your goal is phase-to-phase balancing, distributing
single-phase to individual residences and then shifting the residences
to one phase or the other is probably better in that respect. In
Germany, ordinary wall receptacles are single-phase, so depending on the
homeowner to phase-balance his load is probably not the best policy. On
the other hand, doing the same for multi-residence (i.e. apartment
blocks) does make sense.
As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that all people in
Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of Idiots?
I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too?
6:01 p.m.
On 11/26/2014 02:22 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm
Tiffe"
<holm at freibergnet.de>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:06 AM
We do have a special
category in the US for "German
(over)engineering".
I first heard this when a friend of mine in high school
worked over the summer
for a Mercedes dealer. They were talking about automatic
transmissions
that had something like 45 valves in the shift logic, while
US transmissions
typically had 8 or fewer.
I think the basic thrust has always been that the German
engineers missed
the part about doing the most with the minimum number of
moving parts.
Jon
As I wrote before: Do you really think over there
that
all people in
Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of
Idiots?
I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too?
10:07 p.m.
Jon Elson wrote:
On 11/26/2014 02:22 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
You got it John, most cars hre don't have a single valve in the
gear box. They have some sort of anti theft system for US People
called "Handschaltung".
Gru?,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm
Tiffe"
<holm at freibergnet.de>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:06 AM
We do have a special
category in the US for "German
(over)engineering".
I first heard this when a friend of mine in high school
worked over the summer
for a Mercedes dealer. They were talking about automatic
transmissions
that had something like 45 valves in the shift logic, while
US transmissions
typically had 8 or fewer.
I think the basic thrust has always been that the German
engineers missed
the part about doing the most with the minimum number of
moving parts.
Jon As I wrote before: Do you really think over there
that
all people in
Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of
Idiots?
I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too?
10:18 p.m.
We do have a special category in the US for "German
(over)engineering".
]
As an aside, a friend of mine says "There's the right way,
the wrong way, and the French way" :-)
And having spent many hours under a Citroen, I can
appreciate that. French engineering is certainly
unconventional, although it is often excellent
-tony
26 Nov
26 Nov
10:10 p.m.
Mike Stein wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:06 AM
------------
Did Chuck really say that? *All* people?? Idiots???
No. and where I wrote that he sayed that?
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'll
submit that if your goal is phase-to-phase balancing, distributing
single-phase to individual residences and then shifting the residences
to one phase or the other is probably better in that respect. In
Germany, ordinary wall receptacles are single-phase, so depending on the
homeowner to phase-balance his load is probably not the best policy. On
the other hand, doing the same for multi-residence (i.e. apartment
blocks) does make sense.
As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that all people in
Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of Idiots?
I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too?
Honi soit qui mal y pense...
Applies to you too..you are scrambling up quotings..
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
12:42 p.m.
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
As I wrote before: Do you really think over there that
all people in
Countries that aren't part of the US are some sort of Idiots?
I can't speak for Chuck, but to a first approximation I think
*everyone* are "some sort of idiots", and those of us in the US more
than most. I'm not singling anyone out, and there are obviously
exceptions, but I'm a misanthrope.
I'm a German, are German Engeneeers stupid too?
Probably a lot less than most people. :-)
1:27 a.m.
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014, Eric Smith wrote:
Personally I prefer the British Type G (BS 1363)
sockets
and plugs, but I'm told that a lot of people dislike them.
Sure, you have a cute little device with a cute little eurocord, and at
its end: a monster boat anchor bigger than the device itself ;-)
On the other hand, distributing three-phase to
residences, while great
for people with shop equipment or old computers, seems like expensive
overkill for normal homes.
Not at all!
Ever heard of equally distributing the load over all phases? Your
electricity company will be grateful (as much as using PFCs).
Ever run a kitchen stove on single phase 16A (with all plates and the oven
on)? That's not fun.
And why would it be overkill if all the existing infrastructure already is
three-phase?
For comparison: in Germany, your residence is usually attached three-phase
with each 63A fused. Those phases are more or less equally distributed
over the rooms (with 16A circuit breakers) (plus three-phase devices like
the stove).
Christian
12:06 p.m.
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 2:27 AM, Christian Corti
<cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
Not at all!
Ever heard of equally distributing the load over all phases? Your
electricity company will be grateful (as much as using PFCs).
Here in the US, with single-phase distributed to homes, we do have the
loads balanced across the three phases.
3436
days inactive
3442
days old
49 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bqt＠update.uu.se -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chris＠mainecoon.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
drlegendre＠gmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
holm＠freibergnet.de -
kspt.tor＠gmail.com -
mhs.stein＠gmail.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
oltmansg＠gmail.com -
spacewar＠gmail.com -
tsg＠bonedaddy.net