17 May
2004
17 May
'04
6:05 a.m.
I acquired a PDP 11/23 this weekend. It runs RT-11, which boots fine from either the RL01
or RX01s. Has anyone ever attempted to run RSTS/E on an 11/23? I was thinking about
attempting to SYSGEN RSTS/E v7.0 on this machine, but in looking over some info on RSTS/E,
it does not list the 11/23 as one of the systems that RSTS/E will run on.
Ashley
17 May
17 May
6:03 a.m.
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ashley Carder wrote:
I acquired a PDP 11/23 this weekend. It runs RT-11,
which boots fine from either the RL01 or RX01s. Has anyone ever attempted to run RSTS/E
on an 11/23? I was thinking about attempting to SYSGEN RSTS/E v7.0 on this machine, but
in looking over some info on RSTS/E, it does not list the 11/23 as one of the systems that
RSTS/E will run on.
I know it works on the (emulated) 11/23-PLUS because one of my
customers runs it that way, but that is RSTS/E V8.07. Dunno
much about RSTS, but I can probably try it on an emulator for
you :)
--f
6:53 a.m.
I have it up and running on simh, but I don't remember telling simh that I
was setting up a specific model of a PDP-11. I'll try doing another sysgen
on
simh, matching to the hardware that I have, then transfer the image to an
RL01
using VTServer and see what happens.
- A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <waltje(a)pdp11.nl>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: RSTS/E and PDP 11/23
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ashley Carder wrote:
an 11/23? I was thinking about attempting to SYSGEN RSTS/E v7.0 on
this
machine, but in looking over some info on RSTS/E, it does not list the 11/23
as one of the systems that RSTS/E will run on.
I acquired a PDP 11/23 this weekend. It runs
RT-11, which boots fine
from either the RL01 or RX01s. Has anyone ever attempted to
run RSTS/E on I know it works on the (emulated) 11/23-PLUS because
one of my
customers runs it that way, but that is RSTS/E V8.07. Dunno
much about RSTS, but I can probably try it on an emulator for
you :)
--f
6:25 a.m.
At 11:05 AM -0400 5/17/04, Ashley Carder wrote:
either the RL01 or RX01s. Has anyone ever attempted to
run RSTS/E
on an 11/23?
No, haven't tried.
I was thinking about attempting to SYSGEN RSTS/E v7.0
on this
machine, but in looking over some info on RSTS/E, it does not list
the 11/23 as one of the systems that RSTS/E will run on.
The SPD for V7 says it will run on any PDP-11 processor with memory
management and EIS. It also needs at least 128KB of memory and a
clock. IIRC, the /23+ has 22-bit memory management. Does the /23
have 18-bit memory management? If so, and you meet the other
requirements, it should work.
Good luck,
John
6:25 a.m.
On Mon, 17 May 2004, John A. Dundas III wrote:
The SPD for V7 says it will run on any PDP-11
processor with memory
management and EIS. It also needs at least 128KB of memory and a
clock. IIRC, the /23+ has 22-bit memory management. Does the /23
have 18-bit memory management? If so, and you meet the other
requirements, it should work.
The 11/23 is 18-bit addressing, the 11/23+ is 22-bit,
so, yes, the
/23 will work just fine, should have a slightly faster system than
on the /34 he was used to running it on ;)
(just a bit faster, but less power use!)
--f
6:57 a.m.
Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
The 11/23 is 18-bit addressing, the 11/23+ is 22-bit,
so, yes, the
/23 will work just fine, should have a slightly faster system than
on the /34 he was used to running it on ;)
Both 11/23 and the 11/23+ have 22-bit addresses. Only very early
revisions of the 11/23 board had 18 bit.
6:57 a.m.
On Mon, 17 May 2004, emanuel stiebler wrote:
Both 11/23 and the 11/23+ have 22-bit addresses. Only
very early
revisions of the 11/23 board had 18 bit.
Oh! I learn something every day!
I'll check my boards, dunno
whether I have new ones. I do have old ones, since they're Q18.
Thanks,
Fred
7:22 a.m.
Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2004, emanuel stiebler wrote:
I think it is somewhere in the micronotes, which revision was the
first 22-bits...
Both 11/23 and the 11/23+ have 22-bit addresses.
Only very early
revisions of the 11/23 board had 18 bit.
Oh! I learn something every day! I'll check my boards, dunno
whether I have new ones. I do have old ones, since they're Q18. 
1:39 p.m.
>> Both 11/23 and the 11/23+ have 22-bit
addresses. Only very
>> early revisions of the 11/23 board had 18 bit.
If memory serves me, there was a significant interval where the 11/23 BOARD
had 22-bit addressing, but the standard backplane/chassis only had 18 bits
wired. Been about twenty years, and I am doing this from memory.
Wonder what ever happended to Ralph Stammerjohn.....????
1:58 p.m.
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 06:39:18PM -0400, David V. Corbin wrote:
If memory serves me, there was a significant interval
where the 11/23 BOARD
had 22-bit addressing, but the standard backplane/chassis only had 18 bits
wired. Been about twenty years, and I am doing this from memory.
Right... the BA11N is one of the Qbus boxes I have the most experience
with... it comes from the factory as 18-bit, but can easily be upgraded
to 22-bit. You have to use a 22-bit bus terminator or upgrade your
18-bit terminator, but it works. OTOH, ISTR there's an old LSI-11
CPU that used the "unused" bus lines for memory refresh, so that would
be out of the question after the upgrade.
These days, though, unless you are striving for some sort of visual
authenticity, it's just as easy to throw your boards into a BA23
chassis and go from there. I have more BA23 boxes than I have uVAX
CPUs, so it's an easy choice. But if all you have is an 11/23 in
a BA11 of some flavor, you _can_ max it out.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-May-2004 22:50 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -30.7 F (-34.9 C) Windchill -78.59 F (-61.5 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 15.2 kts Grid 328 Barometer 689.2 mb (10281. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
5:18 p.m.
Right... the BA11N is one of the Qbus boxes I have the
most experience with... it comes from the factory as 18-bit,
but can easily be upgraded to 22-bit...
How is a person supposed to tell a BA11'18 from a BA11'22?
Sounds like there are 4 / 8? signals that could be traced out?
John A.
warning to self:
Too many question marks may appear to be a troll.
6:49 a.m.
>>>> "John" == John A Dundas,
<John> writes:
> I was thinking about attempting to SYSGEN RSTS/E
v7.0 on this
> machine, but in looking over some info on RSTS/E, it does not list
> the 11/23 as one of the systems that RSTS/E will run on.
John> The SPD for V7 says it will run on any PDP-11 processor with
John> memory management and EIS. It also needs at least 128KB of
John> memory and a clock. IIRC, the /23+ has 22-bit memory
John> management. Does the /23 have 18-bit memory management? If
John> so, and you meet the other requirements, it should work.
That depends on whether RSTS V7 had Qbus device support. I don't
remember anymore.
Later versions certainly did; RSTS V9 or V10 for example should work
fine. But I don't remember when the first Qbus system support
arrived.
Just booting the sysgen disk or tape will tell you. If you can get to
the INIT prompt, tell it "hardware list". If you see all your
devices, you should be in business.
paul
6:28 a.m.
Here's one person's notes:
1983
April-RSTS/E Version 8.0-06. Support for the recently announced PDP Micro
11/23 system (RD51 10 megabyte disk, 2*RX50 400K byte floppies, 128K words
memory).
http://www.silverware.co.uk/rsts_80th_birthday.htm
bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ashley Carder" <wacarder(a)usit.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:05 AM
Subject: RSTS/E and PDP 11/23
I acquired a PDP 11/23 this weekend. It runs RT-11, which boots fine from
either the RL01 or RX01s. Has anyone ever attempted to run RSTS/E on an
11/23? I was thinking about attempting to SYSGEN RSTS/E v7.0 on this
machine, but in looking over some info on RSTS/E, it does not list the 11/23
as one of the systems that RSTS/E will run on.
Ashley
9:53 a.m.
>>>> "bill" == bill bailey
<beclassic(a)att.net> writes:
bill> Here's one person's notes: 1983 April-RSTS/E Version
bill> 8.0-06. Support for the recently announced PDP Micro 11/23
bill> system (RD51 10 megabyte disk, 2*RX50 400K byte floppies, 128K
bill> words memory).
bill> http://www.silverware.co.uk/rsts_80th_birthday.htm
Oh my goodness... that takes me back... (I thought it was a 100th
birthday article -- but in any case, that article or one very much
like it was presented at the RSTS 20th birthday celebration at New
Orleans DECUS.)
Thanks Bill!
paul
10:05 a.m.
Paul, you probably know the answer to this.
I've seen this site before and wondered where the line is
that separates fact from fiction. Somewhere around 1990,
obviously, but the line has been craftily blurred by the author
of this 100th birthday thing. I have done studied my
DEC / RSTS / PDP-11 history enough to pick out anything
that is fictitious prior to stuff in the early 90s. Is everything
up to 1990 fact?
Ashley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Koning" <pkoning(a)equallogic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: RSTS/E and PDP 11/23
>>>> "bill" == bill bailey <beclassic(a)att.net> writes:
bill> Here's one person's notes: 1983 April-RSTS/E Version
bill> 8.0-06. Support for the recently announced PDP Micro 11/23
bill> system (RD51 10 megabyte disk, 2*RX50 400K byte floppies, 128K
bill> words memory).
bill> http://www.silverware.co.uk/rsts_80th_birthday.htm
Oh my goodness... that takes me back... (I thought it was a 100th
birthday article -- but in any case, that article or one very much
like it was presented at the RSTS 20th birthday celebration at New
Orleans DECUS.)
Thanks Bill!
paul
10:10 a.m.
Should have been worded as follows:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ashley Carder" <wacarder(a)usit.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: RSTS/E and PDP 11/23
Paul, you probably know the answer to this.
I've seen this site before and wondered where the line is
that separates fact from fiction. Somewhere around 1990,
obviously, but the line has been craftily blurred by the author
of this 100th birthday thing. I have done studied my
*** "I have NOT studied my"
DEC / RSTS / PDP-11 history enough to pick out
anything
that is fictitious prior to stuff in the early 90s. Is everything
up to 1990 fact?
Ashley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Koning" <pkoning(a)equallogic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: RSTS/E and PDP 11/23
>>>> "bill" == bill bailey <beclassic(a)att.net> writes:
bill> Here's one person's notes: 1983 April-RSTS/E Version
bill> 8.0-06. Support for the recently announced PDP Micro 11/23
bill> system (RD51 10 megabyte disk, 2*RX50 400K byte floppies, 128K
bill> words memory).
bill> http://www.silverware.co.uk/rsts_80th_birthday.htm
Oh my goodness... that takes me back... (I thought it was a 100th
birthday article -- but in any case, that article or one very much
like it was presented at the RSTS 20th birthday celebration at New
Orleans DECUS.)
Thanks Bill!
paul
10:23 a.m.
>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder
<wacarder(a)usit.net> writes:
Ashley> Paul, you probably know the answer to this. I've seen this
Ashley> site before and wondered where the line is that separates
Ashley> fact from fiction. Somewhere around 1990, obviously, but the
Ashley> line has been craftily blurred by the author of this 100th
Ashley> birthday thing. I have done studied my DEC / RSTS / PDP-11
Ashley> history enough to pick out anything that is fictitious prior
Ashley> to stuff in the early 90s. Is everything up to 1990 fact?
As far I can tell, yes, pretty much. That fits, because it was
written for the 20th birthday bash.
There may be some historical errors. For example, I don't know if
RSTS has any relationship to IOX. I rather doubt it (but I've never
seen the IOX sources, and I only barely glanced at the docs around 30
years ago...) The cultural heritage is TSS-8, from what I've heard,
though I can't confirm that from personal knowledge either.
The change from .CIL to .SIL happened with RSTS V5B...
TECO did appear -- as a real RTS, not as two Basic programs -- in
V5A...
Some of the fantasy items have a connection to reality:
- There wasn't a Unix RTS, but Bob Fraser ported csh to RSTS.
- Basic for RT11 supported line numbers up to 65532.
- Directory and data cache can be displayed with SDA.
paul
10:47 a.m.
At 3:23 PM -0400 5/17/04, Paul Koning wrote:
- There wasn't a Unix RTS, but Bob Fraser ported
csh to RSTS.
Not as such, at least to my knowledge. Though I (probably others as
well) did investigate trying to write an RTS that would do this in
the early '80s.
I also wrote a shell KBM for RSTS and attempted to sell it under the
DSG Systems name.
John
18 May
18 May
5:39 a.m.
In reading the factual portion of this RSTS birthday page, I noticed a
reference
to a "History of RSTS" back in the mid-1980s. Does anyone have a copy of
this
or know what this reference contains? If such a thing exists, does anyone
know
where a copy can be obtained?
Ashley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Koning" <pkoning(a)equallogic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: RSTS/E and PDP 11/23
>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder <wacarder(a)usit.net> writes:
Ashley> Paul, you probably know the answer to this. I've seen this
Ashley> site before and wondered where the line is that separates
Ashley> fact from fiction. Somewhere around 1990, obviously, but the
Ashley> line has been craftily blurred by the author of this 100th
Ashley> birthday thing. I have done studied my DEC / RSTS / PDP-11
Ashley> history enough to pick out anything that is fictitious prior
Ashley> to stuff in the early 90s. Is everything up to 1990 fact?
As far I can tell, yes, pretty much. That fits, because it was
written for the 20th birthday bash.
There may be some historical errors. For example, I don't know if
RSTS has any relationship to IOX. I rather doubt it (but I've never
seen the IOX sources, and I only barely glanced at the docs around 30
years ago...) The cultural heritage is TSS-8, from what I've heard,
though I can't confirm that from personal knowledge either.
The change from .CIL to .SIL happened with RSTS V5B...
TECO did appear -- as a real RTS, not as two Basic programs -- in
V5A...
Some of the fantasy items have a connection to reality:
- There wasn't a Unix RTS, but Bob Fraser ported csh to RSTS.
- Basic for RT11 supported line numbers up to 65532.
- Directory and data cache can be displayed with SDA.
paul
17 May
17 May
12:29 p.m.
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 11:05:25AM -0400, Ashley Carder wrote:
I acquired a PDP 11/23 this weekend. It runs RT-11,
which boots fine from either the RL01 or RX01s. Has anyone ever attempted to run RSTS/E
on an 11/23? I was thinking about attempting to SYSGEN RSTS/E v7.0 on this machine, but
in looking over some info on RSTS/E, it does not list the 11/23 as one of the systems that
RSTS/E will run on.
Hmm... good question... we used to run RSTS/E v7.0 on Unibus hardware, and
RSX 11/M 4.x on Qbus hardware, but I don't know if that was because of a
compatibility issue, or our own machine availability.
The 11/23 and 11/24 have a KDF-11 CPU chip, so it can't be that. I would
_think_ that if you could get a tape controller that was compatible with
whatever RSTS wants (I'd guess "MT", not "MS", given the era), and
you had
a compatible disk controller, an RLV11 or RLV12, I don't know why you
_couldn't_ bring RSTS/E 7.0 up on an 11/23.
5MB isn't a lot of room, but it is probably enough. You have a blank
pack for that RL01? What are you using for a v7.0 distro? That, I think,
would be the limiting factor.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-May-2004 21:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -31.9 F (-35.5 C) Windchill -77.8 F (-61 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 14.2 kts Grid 333 Barometer 689.4 mb (10274 ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
12:46 p.m.
>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks
<dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> writes:
Ethan> On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 11:05:25AM -0400, Ashley Carder wrote:
> I acquired a PDP 11/23 this weekend. It runs
RT-11, which boots
> fine from either the RL01 or RX01s. Has anyone ever attempted to
> run RSTS/E on an 11/23? I was thinking about attempting to SYSGEN
> RSTS/E v7.0 on this machine, but in looking over some info on
> RSTS/E, it does not list the 11/23 as one of the systems that
> RSTS/E will run on.
Ethan> The 11/23 and 11/24 have a KDF-11 CPU chip, so it can't be
Ethan> that. I would _think_ that if you could get a tape controller
Ethan> that was compatible with whatever RSTS wants (I'd guess "MT",
Ethan> not "MS", given the era), and you had a compatible disk
Ethan> controller, an RLV11 or RLV12, I don't know why you _couldn't_
Ethan> bring RSTS/E 7.0 up on an 11/23.
Interesting point.
Qbus definitely matters for 22 bit support -- I/O addressing is
completely different for 11/70 (UMR and RH70 extended address
registers) vs. Q22 (extended address registers in RLV11 etc.) But
that issue doesn't appear for 18-bit Qbus systems. So yes, you may be
right, RL01 may work via RLV11 simply because it looks sufficiently
like an RL11.
Ditto for single line terminal interface. Not so for muxes; DZ11 is 8
line vs. 4 lines for DZV11.
The "80th anniversary" article mentions 11/23 and RSTS 7.1 around the
same time, but 7.0 a year earlier.
Ethan> 5MB isn't a lot of room, but it is probably enough. You have
Ethan> a blank pack for that RL01? What are you using for a v7.0
Ethan> distro? That, I think, would be the limiting factor.
RL02 is 10 MB, that would be better... The 1982 "system/options
summary" on bitsavers.org shows RSTS for 11/23plus on RL02
distribution. RL01 would be quite tight though certainly a
handcrafted subset of the kit should fit.
paul
1:40 p.m.
On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 05:46:41PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
Right... I was thinking of mentioning that, but didn't have a good way
to phrase it... you might be limited to 18-bit addressing on the 11/23,
but presuming you had device support, it should work.
>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> writes:
Ethan> On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 11:05:25AM -0400, Ashley Carder wrote:
> Has anyone ever attempted to run RSTS/E on an
11/23?
Ethan> The 11/23 and 11/24 have a KDF-11 CPU chip, so it can't be
Ethan> that. I would _think_ that if you could get a tape controller
Ethan> that was compatible with whatever RSTS wants (I'd guess "MT",
Ethan> not "MS", given the era), and you had a compatible disk
Ethan> controller, an RLV11 or RLV12, I don't know why you _couldn't_
Ethan> bring RSTS/E 7.0 up on an 11/23.
Interesting point.
Qbus definitely matters for 22 bit support -- I/O addressing is
completely different for 11/70 (UMR and RH70 extended address
registers) vs. Q22 (extended address registers in RLV11 etc.) But
that issue doesn't appear for 18-bit Qbus systems. So yes, you may be
right, RL01 may work via RLV11 simply because it looks sufficiently
like an RL11. Ditto for single line terminal interface. Not so for
muxes; DZ11 is 8
line vs. 4 lines for DZV11.
True... but the DLV11J might be OK... if not, a few DLV11Es should do the
trick, if you want more than just the console.
RL02 is 10 MB, that would be better... The 1982
"system/options
summary" on bitsavers.org shows RSTS for 11/23plus on RL02
distribution. RL01 would be quite tight though certainly a
handcrafted subset of the kit should fit.
Also true... we used to run RSTS/E on Unibus machines around 1984-1985
with between 2 and 4 RL02 drives (the accounting 11/24 had 4 drives, but
at least 2 of them were for payroll data, etc.) We never had RL01s at
wrk, so I can't say if it will fit, but if it does, it'll be tight.
RT-11 in 5MB is fine - I did software development c. 1987 at home on
my 11/23 (a former HASPBOX for fans of sync serial comms) w/RLV11,
256KB of RAM, LPV11/LA180, and a single RL01. I borrowed all the
peripherals from my PDP-8/a and only had to purchase the 11/23 and
the RLV11 ($400 out of pocket). Still have the machine... still one
of my favorite PDP-11s (probably because I earned several thousand
dollars with it!)
...but it's only ever run RT-11 while I've had it, not RSTS.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-May-2004 22:30 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -31.5 F (-35.3 C) Windchill -76.8 F (-60.5 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 14 kts Grid 325 Barometer 689.2 mb (10281. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
7376
days inactive
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days old
21 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
allain＠panix.com -
beclassic＠att.net -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
dundas＠caltech.edu -
dvcorbin＠optonline.net -
emu＠ecubics.com -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
wacarder＠usit.net -
waltje＠pdp11.nl